>> rose: welcome to the program. hillary clinton's new book is called hard choices, and we talk about it this evening with joe klein, maggie haberman, john dickerson. >> hillary clinton in this book as you read it, i think from the lay reader will look at this and think boy she did a lot. she was on the plane for 87 days i think it was. and she was kind of always plugging away. and if she's running for president and people are thinking about who can we put a complicated world, in whose camp can we put that. a person who recognizes all the complexity, you get that from this book and nothing more. >> rose: we conclude this evening with a talented young woman named sarah louise who wrote a book called the rise creativity the gift of failure and the search for mastery. >> it's how incredible iconic work happen, right. and i started to notice when i was curating at moma or artist studios there would be these back turn paintings that artists didn't want to show me.

but they weren't going to burn those paintings either, right. they were critical for the works and would go on to their acclaim and i started to wonder about whether these paintings, these potentially failed works were not just critical for the creative process but for the indentures and entrepreneurial feats we all celebrate. i wanted to understand that it wasn't about a cliche. >> rose: hillary clinton's hard choices and sarah lewis' case for failure when we continue. >> there's a saying around here: you stand behind what you say. around here, we don't make excuses, we make commitments. and when you can't live up to them, you own up and make it right.

some people think the kind of accountability that thrives on so many streets in this country has gone missing in the places where it's needed most. but i know you'll still find it, when you know where to look. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: for two decades hillary clinton has been among the nation's most respected and powerful public leaders. her four year post as president obama's secretary of state elevated her profile on the global stage.

she's widely expected to run for president in 2016. hard choices is a memoir reflecting on her sometimes as america's chief diplomat. it will be published on tuesday. joining me now is a group of political journalists who know hillary clinton and know politics, joe klein. columnist for "time" magazine. his piece this week, the myth of inevitability challenges the motions that clinton's matt path for the whitehouse is certain and maggie haberman and john dickerson. i'm pleased to have them here at this table. this is a table that serves maggie so she should not have gone out and fund what bob did, trying to give you a very smart and sharp and precise view what it was like to be in a top post in the own administration. >> as a journalist i would rather she did what bob gates did. if i'm one of her advisor i would tell her to do what exactly she did to write a careful at times not revealing book and does have some very interesting moments but she

mostly gets right up to the line of something interesting and then pulled back and doesn't share more. she talks about richard holbrook not being a favorite of the white house but she doesn't go into the great detail that wasn't around at the time about how controversial he was for instance. >> rose: you would think that would be harmless for her to argue it's not about a policy position it's about revelations. >> she was very close and felt very strongly -- that's right. >> you compare that to the way gates handled that very same business in his memoir which i have read. he is pretty, i mean he talks about holbrook being controversial. but then he almost always agrees with holbrook's position on every, you know, on every aspect of afghanistan. >> rose: the argument that you had more things that you could use as tools it was simply the military. >> the distinction between these two books is gates had nothing to lose. he was done.

hillary clinton in this book as you read it, i think for the lay reader will look at this and think boy she did a lot. she was on the plane for 87 days, i think it was. and she was kind of always plugging away, and if she's running for president and people are thinking about who can we put a complicated world, in whose camp can we put that a person who recognizes all the complexity you get that from this book and nothing more. >> one thing i think you do get and i disagree. she talks about this a lot over the last year and-a-half but she really contextualizes the post mortem on 2008 and her requisition with president obama in gender terms. she talks about sexism in the campaign. she talks about things she was subjected to. she talks about the quote preposterous charge of racism against bill clinton. they were interesting there were just not many of them. >> rose: the wining and dining of her took longer than i thought. >> she makes it very clear and there were games being played at

all ends trying to drag out the period she was deciding and keep her from saying no. >> rose: from a political standpoint, she cast herself as more hard line, real politic as a diplomat. >> gates makes it in afghan she was with 30,000 more and she stands with general mcchrystal in 40,000 more. it's kind of thing i would be curious to hear her explanation of it. >> it's frustrating. in the book she says he was wrong about iraq. it doesn't go any further but if she's a hawk on both syria and afghanistan and on egypt as well really then you wonder wow that's fascinating. what did you learn about being wrong about hawkishness with iraq. and what did you learn and how did you apply that to these other instances and you're there and you get none of it.

>> rose: trying to help us understand history. >> i think she's under estimating the american public. i really think you don't have to go as far as gates but you have to go somewhere. and you know, her major problem the major problem to the concept of inevitability is the fact if you never get there, you know, you're not inevitable. you really have to and i don't mean she has to cry the way she did in new hampshire. she has to present what she actually believes and in detail. >> rose: what she believes. >> you get on certain things but to john's point. this was an interesting moment. she said something she refused to say despite all sorts of contortions and pleadings from the media and pleadings from her supporters and some of her advisors in 2008, she refused to call that vote on iraq a mistake. she says i got it wrong here and is -- says she wasn't doing it to be expeed yuntd but then she

did do it to be expedient. >> rose: like other senators she says i got it wrong and made a mistake. it took me a long time to sad mitt it like other senators. >> many us got it wrong and i was one of them but i still got it wrong. she says i was not doing this, something like this was not a political gain but she says people equate mistakes with weakness. it wasn't expedient but it was expedient and that's not going to satisfy a lot of people. >> yet another part of gates' memoir where he's in a meeting with her and another traditional democrat with the president and their talking about the iraq surge and maybe petraeus was in the room. and she says, my position on that, i only took that position because it was political. >> right. >> the patraeus relationship is very interesting. you remember that hearing where

she grilled petraeus on the surge. she's very tough on him and her explanation of the surge in this book is unresolved. but then and you say joe she was in favor essentially of the afghanistan surge and becomes, and there's some writing the book on syria in particular where she becomes an allay with petraeus. >> rose: there were complimentary things about her. >> i asked petraeus before the iraq thing whether there was any democrat who understood the way his mind worked and he said you mean aside from hillary. >> rose: she does put her so the hawkish side. benghazi. >> she talks about benghazi for 34 pages. yes the longest chapter in the book. she offers little by way of new detail other than explaining where she was. this has been one of the questions from her critics. she went home at one point. her home was retrofitted where

all kinds of gadgets so she could still be in touch. she was defensive slash defiant about this towards her critics. she basically says i've talked about this people are playing politics with this, i'm not going to be part of a political slug fest on the backs of four dead americans. this is in advance of what will potentially be new testimony from her before the select committee. i don't think that this chapter is going to do much to quell any of the criticism. >> rose: what is the criticism of her? >> the criticism of her is that she was either a absentee or b it was some kind of perfunctory method. >> rose: for the republicans they think the obama administration used it as a political, they changed the memos as a political document. a word about being characterized as not as tough against terrorism as they were. >> yes. as she says in her words, they were concerned about, the republicans argue that the whitehouse was concerned about a

successful terror attack on president obama's watch. she defends susan rice who you remember went out on the shows who was the one who says those. she says i don't feel it was my obligation to go on the sunday shows but that's about as far as she goes. >> rose: petraeus defense as well. >> that's right. >> it was mostly, the truth about the benghazi operation is i don't know how many passports they stamped there. it was a c.i.a. operation. >> right. they should be able to defend themselves. the consulate is so far below the secretary of state's pay grade that it's laughable. >> that's what she says too. that's very much her point. >> i like her defiance in this case because at least she's showing a little moxy. >> it is one of the most defiant moments probably the only defiant

moment in the book. >> rose: you see actual cutting going on. it's politically wise for her to be so careful and not be sort of stand up this is who i am, this is where i stand and i wanted to define myself. why am i so naive about politics. >> that's who she is. >> rose: that's different, you're saying that's who she is politically she's very careful. >> personally from the moment that i met her 25 years ago or whatever it is now, god, i'm old. she's always been careful and nervous about the inner life of the family and all of the things that she might. >> rose: the book as reflection of who she is. >> yes. >> rose: rather than some calculated make sure that you do no damage philosophy. >> a little of both. >> that's interesting because in the book which is careful in its laying things out she nevertheless expresses opinions which are on a slightly riskier side on the syrian opposition.

>> rose: cuban embargo. >> i see that appears the opposite. >> rose: how about obama do more. >> it's tougher for him to actually did do more than it is for her to take the position where the polling is switching in florida which is really the state where it matters. >> he still should have done more. >> rose: with respect to the complain you call this the beginning of the campaign, this is the first big moment in the 2016 campaign, why is she not inevitable. >> why is she not inevitable because she's a democrat and other democrats will contest her. >> rose: what do you mean the democrats are going to contest her. >> i think can three off hand from the left populous, brian schweitzer from montana. there's a piece about him in this issue of time.

elizabeth warren may do it. and jim webb really has held the door open, you know. and i've read his book. >> rose: are these formidable challenges. >> we'll see. if you're not giving the public what they want, then any challenger could be formidable. >> so the question is whether in the role out of hillary clinton you have the book launch then she'll go on the stump in 2014 for canada and that's the main thing to watch because how long has she been out of the cut and thrust of domestic politics. pretty long time. >> how much did she learn from how good she got. she was a lousy candidate at first. but starting in pennsylvania she became a darn good candidate. >> she acknowledges that in the book. >> rose: starting in pennsylvania. >> yes. and that was a long time ago. and the conversation particularly on the grounds that you're talking about, joe, when she was the populist, she talked about the 1%. she talked about the squeezing

of the middle class but she's about to get back into it in a way she hasn't for many years. >> to that end what we saw in term of the diane sawyer interview she was overstated but it was a real shake moment. she was asked to defend her high speaking fees. she said when we left the whitehouse we were flat broke or dead broke one of them, which is true. then she said we needed money to fund children's education and for mortgages for our houses. houses, plural was not something that political advisor would suggest she did. what happened was forget about that. people have forgotten about that within a week but it hardend into conventional wisdom on twitter and over the blog. it was a very different scene now and i don't know if their ready for it. >> rose: what about the media, how would you characterize it? >> poor. >> rose: because. >> because she inherently does not like the media and believes

for real reasons that she was subjected to unfairness. i think she has at times. >> rose: 2008. >> and beyond. she's gone back to the 1992 presidential campaign. she has had times had trouble discerning between legitimate lines of inquiry by the media and attacks by the her critics. >> the other thing is that, and the same is true of president obama. she is a very serious policy one. when she's working on a policy or talking about a policy, when she rolled out her healthcare policy in the 2008 campaign. she didn't want to hear anything from anything about the latest trivialities which is a good part of presidential politics. therefore she resents them. >> rose: the effort often is made or the discussion often comes to the question of what she did as secretary of state. and first response always has been foreign policy comes from the white house. but at the same time, good secretaries of state whether it's others recommend foreign

policy decision and recommended a decision richard holbrook would have done that obviously. >> holbrook was working closely with her and he was staying very close to her during that time. he was taking the exact same positions that she was taking and she was taking the exact same position as robert gates was taking. to do that in this administration would have been particularly hard. i've long believed-- >> rose: a pass on foreign policy. >> no, i don't. i've long believed this is the most closely held foreign policy of any administration since nixon and kissinger only there's no kissinger. it's all been run out of president obama's brain. one thing she did very wells was the public diplomacy. she was running it like a political campaign. she would have eight town meetings a day. >> rose: and the outreach to women around the world. >> absolutely. >> one of the arguments she

makes in her book when she frames foreign policy she would say remember how far back we were after the bush years that a lot of her work was repair perk and that that's what she will say she did was improve america's relationship with countries, improving asia. she basically takes credit for the pivot to asia and arguing. and this is writs hard. when you tack about building multilateral institutions that's not going to zing off in asia to contain china. that's a long discussion but she's what she argues she was a part of. >> rose: maggie take off ten points. mending fences with obama. >> she thanks about their sit down and talks about it in first date like terms. >> rose: over -- >> after 2008. frankly i wanted much more in reading this.

i don't think any of us hear now how angry that race and how angry her team and obama's team were at each other in terms of what happened. >> rose: more angry than at her husband. >> that's why i thought her and the race issue was significant. her describing the racism charges are preposterous. that's a few moments my eyebrow went up on her taking a risk on something. >> at the end of that episode where he says finally he did convince me i was the best person on the planet. it's like okay there is a little twinge and a lot of the decisions, there's a pattern in the book where you're reading along and you think when are events going to come to ratify what she believed in the beginning of this chapter. >> rose: do you think president obama wanted her because she was the best possible secretary of state. >> perhaps.

>> i think it was a great political move. yes. and the doris kearns good wins book was very hot at that moment. he at that time, the president was saying to himself in kind of lincolnian terms potentially. >> rose: also if i looked at who he thought might be on the list and they had reasons to disqualify so therefore she became someone who did not have a disqualifying point. >> coming back to just how bad things were, she flicks at it gently through the booker about some whitehouse advisors worried about what she's doing. the loyalty she shows between her and the president in this book and throughout her times of her service is pretty extraordinary. >> this may be the biggest potential problem that she has going forward as a candidate. >> rose: the unpopularity of the president. >> and the fact she was running for a third term. i mean you know, look how it worked out for al gore. >> that's what she's doing with this book. she basically has two parallel

tracks going where you have her advisors telling other democrats her foreign policy was our foreign policy we are the same. she makes clear i'm serving at the pleasure of the president at points throughout the book. and yet she makes clear into john's point, this is where i see the world and eventually the obama team will arrive where i am at some point. and they are doing it throughout. >> rose: so if you argue that the four biggest issues facing american foreign policy let's say china, russia, the middle east, terrorism. are they different? >> they are. i think that, there's no co-she isive vision for her in the book. >> rose: there's no cohesive vision from him. >> there is. >> that's right. >> there's a pretty good foreign policy i would say. i mean, you know, it's like the hippocratic oath. do no harm. >> it's first do no harm.

there might not be a second. >> she does gently wrestle in this book although again doesn't follow through with the dueling and conflicting elements of foreign policy. we have values. we support human rights and some instances she says that's what we needed to do, libya being one example. but then in other instances, human rights can't be totally driving the bus and there's sometimes mubarak and egypt would be an example. she wrestles with some of those things and she comes down and says it's a complicated world and we need to kind of work them out on a case by case basis which doesn't have the driving values. it's kind of an in box. >> rose: let's thank you about one issue russia. she was all for the russia reset. >> well, yes and no. it's interesting, their retrospective on this she was always very critical of putin. she was always skeptical of him, she makes that clear in the book. she acknowledges she was

absolutely the face of this policy and that's something the republicans have leaped on. she writes about a memo she sent obama right before she left, it was long. some of the reset is over let's not give into him anymore. don't accept a meeting with him and so forth. and ultimately that is where the president ended up. >> rose: a couple months. >> it took him several months and many more embarrassments about edward snowden and so forth to get there. >> rose: the bin laden raid, where was she. >> she was in favor of the bin laden raid and she pens herself as a very important actor. she has in speeches done that by the way. since last years what was interesting she coasted over biden which she said in public was very against this. in the book it was he was skeptical and moves on to other things. she de scribes very dramatically in one of the tense moments how she lays out to bowl how panetta

pens her as an alliances. he was concerned about it, correct, right. >> rose: too risky in terms of the relationship with pakistan. >> that's correct. >> as you remember during the 2008 campaign in the debate when you were asked would you move into pakistan if you had more intelligence would you move in laterally without letting them know and barack obama said yes. thank you god for letting him answer a hypothetical and she tried to clobber him saying that was naive and this is the moment where he followed through. >> there's the problem right there with her as a politician. she's great as a humanitarian, she's great as a -- but at that moment, her political instincts to knock him as the new guy as being naive and so on, overtook her common sense which would have been well of course we would go in there and get him. >> rose: why am i wrong about this. bill clinton's got great political instincts, right. isn't he sitting there at every

political decision in consultation. >> i'm sure he's in consultation until she meets the enemy and then it's her mouth, her gut and our ears. >> i agree with that. >> rose: really. push comes to should have she's on her on. >> when push mes to shove she is on her own. it can't be bill and i talked on this together and we agreed that. she is out there on her own. >> suggest said before really struck me about how different the media are eight years later. and i think the population is much different eight years later. and i just wonder whether these classic baby boomers can relate to the new population out there. >> that is one of the themes and i'm wondering if you caught this too in the book or if you saw it the way i did. she refers several times to younger white of house aides

those who rolled their eyes of holbrook talking, young white house aides dismissive. it pops up in a couple places and it's sort of you're not respecting me and -- >> rose: what is it at the whitehouse with dick holbrook other than ego. >> that's a big part of i it. some of it if memory serves more than wrong they thought he was dangerous, they thought he was reckless. and the ego thing, exactly, evident out there overshadowing the white house. >> that was with the president but it was also a very real difference with the military about whether to negotiate with the taliban. >> rose: holbrook was in favor. >> holbrook was very much in favor. >> rose: he wanted to do the negotiating. >> in fact those five guys who were released were people his staff was trying to get released. >> rose: where was she on that then. >> she claims or at least

there's been a memo since the book that claims she wanted a tougher deal. three instead of five. >> rose: in this case she was just not at one with her. >> no. >> rose: friend holbrook. >> that's very much as of last week. >> that's right. it was reported in 2012 in real time she was concerned about a deal. that was in the rolling stone report of that. >> rose: both caution and hawkish. >> that's exactly right. >> on the media thing no family has been at the center of feeding frenzy part of the media more than clinton going back to whitewater and the primary. >> rose: reason to be. >> well yes there is opposition and the right wing conspiracy she talks about. when you're in the center of media frenzy that's no picnic. now it's more feeding frenzy. more hours are in the feeding frenzy mode than the political cycle. it's gotten worse and she's been

in it longer than anybody else and that would give her reason to be unhappy with the media. >> the most rocked i after saw her was after she was making a tour to support hillary care in late 1994. and she was lambasted by average civilians. it was a day in seattle where she cursed her and she spat on her. i don't think that day ever leaves her mind. >> we actually -- >> rose: this is at a kind of -- >> pro hillary healthcare rally. >> and the opponents showed up. >> yes. a lot of civilians did. >> we had a story in politico magazine about her in the media recently with an anecdote thinking after she, that bid when she made a reference to bobby kennedy getting assassinated in the 2008 primaries. remember those. the media machine went bananas

where he was working at the time. she was crying at the back, she was very rattled. this is the most rattled. they think i'm a monster, i don't know what to do. i think there's a part of her that never hardened to this and she was wounded by it. >> if you read the diane blare journals, there's a constant conversation hillary had with her friend there's a constant push and pull. why are they criticizing me so much. and then i don't care about their criticisms. >> that's right. >> now in this book she talks about the benefit of the 2008 campaign was it finally taught her how to basically deal with criticism and then another space she says actually i benefit from the criticism of my critics because i can take it on and learn from it. we don't see the evidence of that. but it shows that many years after her fist days in the whitehouse where she's saying the critics don't bother me the critics still do bother her. >> she wrote something similar in living history. she wrote some version of that line saying i learned not to let the critics get in my head. that was 11 years ago.

>> rose: maggie what about -- >> she was very angry about michele bachmann was the one who i remember championing this the most in the house she was angry at some congressional republicans, house republicans who were suggesting her long time aide because she is muslim and because her parents do not live here they live in the mid east she's a muslim brotherhood plant. i don't recall hillary talking about it at the time. she said she was private furious. appreciative senator mccain and president obama stood up for her. >> michele bachmann she's a potted plant. you can't take criticism from michele bachmann can you? >> or if you're writing a billet cull book you can point it out. >> rose: did she miss the opportunity, missed the opportunity of creating a narrative, every great political campaign has a narrative. >> yes, she did. and i think she doesn't net know what her anywherive is --

narrative is going to be. i don't think she's figured it out yet. >> rose: it's something for her to do. >> the book ends that way. she says campaigns are about the future and that's the end of the book and she doesn't say what that would mean. >> she has to figure out as we were saying before her relationship with obama and it's really important in this democratic party she figures out what her relationship is with wall street and big money. >> rose: all of that in terms of the reality of that and at the same time there's position discussion today about america's role in the world where we stand. >> that's right. >> i would say she has created kind of the second sentence of the narrative. the first is going to be about the economy. she has to figure that out although in the book it starts by saying i wanted to get back to talking about health care and the middle class and wages but then barack obama pulled me in as secretary of state and the book ends by saying i look forward to getting back talking about these issue. that's sentence one of the narrative and she has to come up about the why of her candidacy.

the second sentence is what this book is about is that she understands a complex world and can deal with -- >> rose: don't you think -- >> i think she's got that and i think at this point. one of the things "the washington post" recently did a story where two of their reporters spoke to a sort of ad hoc focus group in iowa. what my take away was from what the voters said was experience is really what makes her interesting. she's really ahead of the game and this is what harmed her last time. so yes i think that second sentence. >> rose: how about age. let's take a look at this, this is airing tonight on abc. diane sawyer asks hillary clinton the extent her age could be a factor in the election 2016. senator clinton will be 69 in november at the date of the election. >> age. isn't it great to be our age. nobody looking at us would ever believe.

>> you'll be 69 on election day. that's eight months younger than ronald reagan. it matters. age matters. >> well, it may depending upon who the person is. my mother lived with us until her death at 92 and she was as active and involved and curious and intellectually capable as people much younger than her. so it's the individual. i don't think you should be touted in or written off based on age. >> you age in any way. >> i don't. >> mitch mcconnell said at one point i think at the cpac conference that 2016 will be the return of the golden girls. >> that was a very popular long running tv series. >> rose: what do you make of this. >> it's great. >> she was well prepped for that question and she did it very well. if she is that well prepped on others --

>> she was remarking on diane sawyer's age. >> rose: what about the political instincts. >> this was pretty good foot work look at diane sawyer's out here and not taking the bait on mitch mcconnell. moving on with human. >> rose: who is advising her? who other than the president and chelsea? >> sharyl mills. >> rose: it was said sharyl mills did not want her to run, is that an accurate reflection. >> 100% accurate. >> rose: why? >> she was a real i was and recognizes a complain will be miserable for everybody involved. she says this to almost everybody she speaks with i hope she doesn't do it. at the same time if she does do it i'm laying this out for her. she's not sheikh away and she will be involved. she won't be involved as a campaign manager but she will be involved. it's a small team she's got dan

who is a long time speech writer and helped her write the book. felipe has been with her forever and there's a smattering of a couple people here and there. >> rose: the other question about her is karl rove's question. she's now said she has all medical records immediately. does that put to rest all this stuff that rove tried to create. >> no, it doesn't. because whether you think it's legitimate or not, i don't think it's going to end it because she says i'll put out what others put out. john mccain put out tens of thousands of medical records because his history and i don't think she's going to do that. there are people for whatever she puts out will never be enough. >> or the conspiracy theory. the amazing thing to me about the rove business and several other things that have happened in recent weeks is how much they're desperate, the republicans are absolutely desperate to run against her as if she want to finally be able to drive a stake in the heart of clintonism because they never can beat these guys.

>> they also, they're using the book launch and the book tour for their own purposes. >> that's right. >> and that's two things. she raises money in the way ted kennedy used to raise money for them and in the way they need a democratic person and for attacking hillary, being on hillary clinton is a way of keeping their supports up. >> it will be interesting to see for republicans it's not an easy way to sell a book or easy way to sell a list. there are certain grassroots that will give a low dollar amount when they see her name on something. >> rose: i think it's an evolution rather than as to do of hers. she's a long way from where she was as first lady. it had to do with her secretary of stateship and because she'd views on her own. >> that's right. >> if the neoconservatives want to come after her one thing we

see she isn't that soft but they really have passed their sell-by date because the american people don't want to go into wars at this point. there are none i can see right now that are worth fighting. >> rose: i don't think i mentioned this but her position on syria is interesting. she clearly, and i think a lot of people think because of the advice that the president got from petraeus, from panetta, from hillary, from others that he ought to do more at that time. i think it's viewed now as almost a majority of people that i hear from including foreign sources as well, people in the middle east think that he should have done more at that time and he's talking about doing more the things it was recommended he do then, a year and-a-half later, two years later when the terrorist forces on the ground have risen exponentially. >> yes. >> well look, libya, she was in favor of and the president

acquiesced on that and that didn't turn out so well number one. and number two, you know, how quickly we forget our long track record of giving arms to hadim. >> rose: she comes and speaks about mubarak where she wanted more ordered transition. >> she didn't want him to leave power and talking about the destabling effect having long term ramifications. >> rose: for those people you guys cover her and at the same time know her and watched her over the years and now there's this book. what is it that recommends her most as a human being and is a major political figure in the world. >> the longishness that joe talked about. that she is hip deep in the issue. she is on the plane -- >> rose: -- the people. >> and the people and understands the context and complexity of things. what we don't know though is how far that takes you. yes you can get buried in

context and not take the risk and leap, do the executive thing. and there are some hints here where she would have preferred a riskier more declarative approach. we don't know about the debate and she doesn't outline it for us to make an independent assessment whether her policies and approaches really sort of what that fully means. >> that's right. >> this is a person who cares more about policy than politics. and so john's right -- i would say that bill cares about both equally. and that's what you need actually. >> rose: when we look back at barack obama, will a central critique of him be the absence of experience. >> absolutely. >> yes. it will be but i don't know that that's actually accurate, right. >> rose: it will be but it's not accurate. >> correct. i think -- i interrupted you. >> this is fascinating because she ran the phone call remember. and she says who is going to be there when the children are in

their bed. going back to gates for a minute, gates said this president has no trouble making decisions and the call he made on bin laden was the gutsiest call he ever seen. >> rose: of any president. >> and that's the interesting thing. >> i think he's been more decisive and i think far more solid on foreign policy despite what everybody's saying now than he has been on domestic policy. for example i don't believe she would have gone for full scale universal healthcare right out of the box. i think she would have had this other guy speaking in your ear and saying you got to focus like a laser beam on the economy. >> there are issues, there are issues in which clear naivete for lack of a better word when he was first in office but i think this is his personality. i think this is his temperament. >> rose: where do you come down on experience side watching

him up close both politically and as a decision maker and being right. >> i don't think it's a fair critique. again i think it's judgment and temperament. >> it's critique in his dealings with the congress. >> that agree with. i think it is a fair critique in his dealing with congress. if he had been somebody longer in the senate than a half term or however long it was i do think that's one area but that's one of the few exceptions. >> rose: what's his biggest failure as a president. >> i think it would be the political. what you hear from democrats. they have conversations with the president and you say what did you talk about and it comes up again and again and they say well he was just checking the box. now the big question of course though is let's -- >> rose: listening but not hearing. >> let's say he had all these fantastic political conversations and had a real sense in the field could he still have overcome the opposition he had from a unified party against him. we don't know but we haven't

tried. it would have been hard. >> we don't know. >> rose: the core of the opposition, what is it to him? >> the opposition to him? >> rose: the president. is it race in part? >> i think it's certainly race in part. and it also has to do with you know the other party is run by talk show host at this point. what's wrong with that? >> rose: i'm kidding. >> you would be the leader of a -- but these guys have really made any given plausible democrat and we've only had like moderate democrats who have been major contenders the last 20 years. they see every last one of them as a half crazed socialist radical. >> rose: she's a moderate democrat. >> sure. in a country where people are frightened about their economic status fear sells.

>> rose: nothing about politics here's my one single prediction. >> you don't know nothing about politics. >> rose: if she is elected president she will appoint barack obama to the supreme court. >> interesting. >> that's interesting. >> okay. we'll write that one down. >> rose: i have to say it. >> if she's elected i think david petraeus will find a role in this administration. >> no, i can't rise to that level. i wanted to be at a late night in a dorm room with you guys. >> rose: maggie, great to see you. joe, great to see you. john a pleasure. back in a moment, stay with us. >> sarah lewis is here. she is an art scholar, curator and writer and served on employing's art policy committee. she turns her eye to the concept of failure in her first book it is called the rise, creativity the gift of failure and the search for mastery.

i'm pleased to have sarah lewis at this table. welcome. >> it's a pleasure to be here. >> rose: your passion is art. >> it is, it is, absolutely. >> rose: and so what led you from this and curating and both the education and experience you've had to write about failure? >> yes. so many things. one question i've always had is on you honey credible iconic creative work happened. i started to notice when i was curating whether at moma or yale or artists studios there would be these back turned paintings that artists didn't want to show me. but they weren't going to burn those paintings either, right. they were critical for the works and then would go on to their acclaim and started to wonder whether she's back turned paintings these potentially failed works were not just critical for the creative process, you know. but for the indentures and entrepreneurial feats that we all celebrate. i wanted to understand it in a way that wasn't about a cliche.

it wasn't about how failure can be better than success but i really wanted to understand the dynamic of what can happen in someone when they find j.k.rowling that can rise. it's a story about all these individuals who had that journey. >> rose: you found this, you discovered this, you became interested in this that failure has value at a moment in your live by observation or experiences. >> both. >> rose: you seem like someone who never seen failure. >> i have to remind people it is both. it's not a memoir, i should be very clear. it's not a veiled memoir. but i did have kind of a detonation of experience in my life at a young age, teenager that let me see the fear of failure was often was motivating me, you know, more than the desire for success. and it happened when i was in

high school and it was actually about an art competition that i had one and then failed in and the failure taught me more about myself and that success and i wrote about that from my application essay to college. hid the essay from my college advisor and my parents because writing about failure at the time seemed like a risk or proposition, you know. but over time organically. >> rose: and the lack of self confidence and all that. >> exactly. i applied to college and over time i started to notice in the life stories of many different icons you find these moments where advantages were gleaned from difficult painful circumstances and it could have come no other way. whether it's say looking at martin luther king's seminary transcript like i did. >> rose: what did you see. >> i received c's in public speaking twice. i noticed that, i noticed and as

i mentioned jk rowling had that experience. there's so many individuals who experienced this phenomenon. >> rose: michael jordan didn't make the basketball team when he was a freshman. >> that's right, exactly. and artists, inventors, entrepreneurs all have these stories and we don't have to dig past the surface. this book after writing about contemporary artists for a long time was a way to explore it more fully. >> rose: abraham lincoln you quote men are greedy to public the success of their effort but mainly shy as to publishing the failures of men. what did he mean. >> lincoln was certainly no stranger to failure. >> rose: and self introspection. >> his work before politics allowed him to come into this realm how people arrest credit and that's where failure came into the american lexicon and then you were bankrupt that you

reached a dead end. that's the only time people called to failure. >> rose: how you use language, you don't use the word failure. >> that's right. >> rose: you don't even use the word success, you like to use the word mastery. >> that's right. i do so for a few reasons. failure isn't a word that came to mind with people i interviewed whether it was a ben saunders more you name the person. once you tend to transform from that experience you tend to call it something else, a learning experience, a trial you develop resilience etcetera. so failure doesn't feel like the right word because it's so static it doesn't suggest the dynamism that can come afterwards. i also think success is a word that i'm changing my relationship to. i think of it as a term that is affixed to us if we hit a benchmark that in other people's eyes meets their approval. the internal landscape and that's what i think mastery's

about. constantly closing that gap between your intentions and your facts. >> rose: are there difference between men and women. >> that's a great question. i didn't approach the book as a researcher in that way hoping to make distinctions and broad levels in that way but i did notice a few. i think that well as women we're often very hard on ourselves. some of that comes from a bit of insight and some introspection. it was very hard to find stories of women, in fact, to have in the book. >> rose: who acknowledged failure. >> who acknowledged failure and then went on to huge flourish. i think that has to do in part with how recently it's been the case how women have been expected to be a success so you can't find the stories as readily. there are differences. >> rose: i think it depends on what you define as failure. you could define failure as simply a learning experience. >> exactly. >> rose: nothing more, nothing less. >> exactly.

that's really what i in the end do although the subtitle of course as the gift of failure i really am hoping for another word. this book in some ways becomes a biography of an idea that we live through in the same way one day it's winter and really the next it's spring. i'm looking for a word that describes that dynamic in us. >> rose: you say also that you have the gift of being under estimated. who under estimates you? >> well, you know i think we still, we are in a moment where -- >> rose: we? >> as a society. i think we're at a moment where someone who looks like me, young, african american, you know, isn't necessarily expected to do what i'm doing if i'm in an average coffee shop people don't probably assume that i've gone to harvard, oxford and yale but i'm writing books and i'm curating and because of that i can be under estimated and i welcome it. it creates a certain fire in me and that's part of what contributes to my drive. >> rose: you're not the only one about that.

even the number of politicians for example have said one of the gifts they had was under estimated and neighborhood them to be able to take advantage of their opponent. >> exactly. >> rose: so you're off now, so you mentioned this remarkable academic pedigree. you're off to teach at harvard. >> yes. >> rose: and do what else? >> i'll be on a dubois scholarship at the hunchen center. this book is really looking at the myth and the fictions that under gird these ricial categories we now life through, right. it's looking specifically in the way that frederick douglass had from the civil war a desire for us to be able to think through our vision and our progress on america differently through the

importance of what he called not just pictures but thought pictures, you know. what's conjured in the imagination when something impacts us so greatly that it lets us kind of shin in the back door of rational thought and look at the world differently. and that relates to race as well. there are many pictures that allowed us to see that these racial categories that we really used to divide us sometimes to see our commonalties are really evident when we look sometimes and say a photograph of matthew brady took of the surcassianian beauty. >> rose: who is manuel lee. >> -- one of us has a much cooler name than the other one. >> rose: shadrach. >> i do like shadrach, a biblical name. he was a jazz musician and a painter and he inspired me. he spent his life doing those

two things really in large part because of what he was not able to say through his own education, expelled in 11th grade when he was in high school were asking where african americans were in the history books. >> rose: what's your deepest ambition that you're hesitant to tell me? >> deepest ambition that i'm hesitant to tell you. mm-mm. well, the deepest ambition is one that i'm not so hesitant to tell you or else i wouldn't be doing my job here on this earth to live it out. it really is to ensure that we are looking at the arts not simply as a respite from life kind of a luxury, you know. but are always understanding the critical importance that it's had for societal change, e form -- e normances of human

rates. listen to this trumpet player had on charles black, jr., you know who in 1931 went to austin, texas to be to a dance and just found himself so transfixed by this trumpet player and knew in that moment there was genius coming out of his horn and he knew segregation must be wrong because this black man who was armstrong as it turned out showed him that. and charles black, jr. went on to become one of the lawyers for brown versus board of education, you know. and acknowledged that moment the power of the arts in that moment for doing so. that's my deepest ambition championing the impact the galvanic force that the arts have for all of us really. >> rose: the book is called the raise, darn walker the president of the great foundation says the rielz is written for lessons for all of us. darren said that and agnus done

said the rise has been not by the artist but by the person helping us hoping to unearth his or her own capacity for discovery and creativity. creativity the gift in search for mastery. thank. >> thank you. >> rose: thank you for joining us. see you next time. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org explore new worlds and new ideas

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