from washington, the mclaughlin group. the american original. for over three decades, the sharpest minds, best sources, hardest talk. issue one, irs fireworks. >> this is not being forthcoming. this is being misleading again. this is a pattern of abuse, a patterof behavior that is not giving us any confidence that the agency is being impartial. i don't believe you. this is incredible. >> i have a long career, that's the first time anybody has said. >> i don't believe you. >> you have said today that there's no evidence of criminal wrong doing.

and i'm asking you what criminal statutes you have reviewed to reach that conclusion. >> i reviewed no criminal statute. >> appeared before two congressional committees this week and last to testify. vital evidence in the probe of former irs manager, lois learner, and six other employees under investigation by congress has been permanently destroyed. in february, commissioner testified under oath that the irs would turn over all of learner's e-mails. vital evidence. five weeks later, the treasury department that learner's e- mails over a two-year period were lost in a computer crash and in addition, the archive backups were quote, unquote, recycled. meaning, gone. destroyed. the e-mails communications to the justice department and other executive branch agencies, including the white

house. at this time, learner was urging orders of tea party groups and fishing around for criminal prosecution grounds. the white house was informed of the missing e-mails in april. withheld information from congress until after april, namely, june 16, when ron, chairman of the senate finance committee and ranking republican member hatch asked him to legally certify that the irs had turned over all relevant communication. the senators had asked as the prelude to closing the senate probe into irs harassment of conservative nonprofits. only at this point, the widened hatch legal certification acknowledged learner's missing e-mail. he mentioned nothing, however, about the other six employees who also suffered computer crashes that obliterated e- mails, investigators were and

are seeking. he said nothing about those lapses in the documentary record, until pressed by the house, ways, and means committee. according to him, the irs has destroyed all the crashed hard drives by putting them in the recycling bin. >> question, seven employees under investigation. seven hard drive crashes. zero archive backup. what kind of a coincidence is that? pat buchanan. >> striking coincidence, john. look, miss lois learner has already taken the fifth amendment. the activity here they are investigating is the irs going on a full court press after all these little tea party groups denying them basically their constitutional rights to participate in the democratic process. it is worse than what nixon allegedly did. someone said they are out to harass people by having audits of them. is this an article of impeachment against nixon.

this screams for an independent prosecutor to investigate this. the truth about it, and the lies and who was behind it and what happened there. if again, it were republican administration, the entire press corps would be over it the way they were over the break in at water gate. >> what do you think of that? >> still looking for payback from the nixon era. there is nothing to connect this to barack obama. and there's a lot of confusion of facts. the republicans claim they sent a letter about investigation and e-mails get destroyed. the letter was about a different investigation, not this one. 24,000 e-mails have been recovered. so, they haven't all been lost. and mr. coscogan got us through y2k. he is widely respected. and he wasn't even there when all of this happened and the notion that he is orchestrating this big coverup is ridiculous.

republicans are getting nervous about going into november. they got a rally their troops. obama care lost some of its edge and trying to pump this up into a major scale. if you can't connect it to the white house, you're not going to get people all worked up about it. >> okay, contributions. >> since 1989, the commissioner has given $80,000 to democrats. two years ago, he contributed $5,000 to candidate obama's reelection drive. >> that was $80,000. should he be judged as truly impartial? i ask you. >> it doesn't matter, john, whether he should or he shouldn't. this whole scandal is so jacked up on the steroids of politics that it's hard to tell what is actually happening. how you could come at it from both sides. one of the reasons the white house has not been connected is a huge amount of data in the

middle of the case appears to be destroyed. on the other hand, if we slow this down from the republicans in the house who have gone nuts over it, this case involves also looking at liberal groups. that might have been abusing their 501 status. the irs had mid level managers looking at trying to clean up the mess around the 501 groups and political activity. but they are so inept as the irs notoriously is, that this thing has blown up in their faces politically. >> what do you think about rendition? do you think it was forced? >> look. this has not passed the smell test. we don't know what exactly went on. given the stakes volved. given how important this can be. if there was real manipulation, then we have to have a further investigation. you're going to get both sides arguing and different ways. we have to find some

independent way to find out what happened to all this. >> political groups right or left shouldn't be getting this huge tax break from the federal government and they can easily fix that, go back to the original intent of that regulation. and portraying this as going after all these little tea party groups, this is karl rove and millions of dollars. >> their constitutional rights and the person responsible has taken the fifth amendment. you think the nixon white house or any other administration would get away with that. everybody would be screaming for an independent council to go over the folks. >> question, hold on. if the seven computer hard drives or the backup archives were destroyed to get rid of the e-mails, is it a criminal offense? i ask you. >> yeah, i think it is a criminal offense. i mean, yeah, i appreciate that she pleaded the 5th, but is

this actually a federal investigation that involves law enforcement or a congressional investigation that is largely political. if it's a largely political investigation and evidence was destroyed, that is an unanswered question. >> pat. >> it would be obstruction of justice. if it were a criminal investigation, but i think you have a point if they are looking at this stuff and people threw their files out before it was turned into a criminal investigation, that's a different matter. >> mort, the los angeles times editorial board called for an independent investigation of the irs by an outsider. not an independent council. but an independent probe, if you can see any discussion there. is that a good idea? >> i think some independent review of this is absolutely essential, because if it gets caught up in the politics that each side will beat the other with, it's just not going to deal with what the issue is. there is a real event here that took place that has to be properly explained. maybe your version is right, maybe the other version is

right, we have to find out independently. >> do we want to subpoena powers? >> absolutely. >> i can't believe -- >> and the power of prosecute wrong doing. >> there have already been investigations of the power of subpoena, and stalling in that job, he came in with this revered background. he was seen as the person who can clean it up and now the house republicans do a good job. >> if there are subpoenaed powers, then this prosecutor or independent investigator will still be dependent on the irs and the justice department, but not the same way. as a matter of fact, he won't be. >> you get testimony, you walk lois learner into a grand jury and immunize her and say start talking. >> are you arguing for an independent -- >> i think it's essential. if it's the irs, it is the irs.

>> yes or no, eleanor? >> why don't you offer learner immunity? i think her lawyer has been fishing for that. >> what do you think? >> we have to get to the bottom of it with some kind of report at first, whether it goes to prosecution. >> with subpoena power. >> with subpoena power we can look at afterwards and say what actually happened here regardless of politics. >> i think this has gotten to the point where we really, as a country, and as a government, should have a very clear review of this and a very clear investigation so that whatever comes out, no longer the kind of back and forth that one person and one side says about the other. i think this is really an important issue. >> both sides will pick each other apart. >> the answer is, it should be an independent council. he should have the power of subpoena and power to prosecute. pat, let me point this book out to you. the greatest comeback, how

richard nixon goes to new majority is a spell binder. >> thank you very much, john, it's the story of richard nixon's comeback from two defeats of his own and the gold water disaster of 1994 and assassinations, to win the white house in 1968, which no one could have imagined or expected three years before. >> hilarious in places. >> it could be hilarious. >> did you run -- >> loved it. what you have done is you have skipped in some places the chapter format and you have gone into about ten pages or eight pages of a certain subject that interests you or a certain occasion and those are gems, you know what i'm talking about? >> one of the chapters, little chapters is about nixon and i traveling to the middle east after the six-day war.

he was there when it started. >> you were on the plane together. >> just the two of us. >> he went right to sleep. >> he would set off his alarm. he had an alarm clock on his watch and wake up and start writing notes. >> you put in the book how it amazed me how he would fall asleep. issue two, iraq war. >> we made it clear to everyone in the region that we don't need anything to take place that might exacerbate the sectarian divisions that are already at a heightened level of tension. >> john kerry responded to a new concern about the war in iraq. syrian war planes on tuesday bombed physicians inside iraq. held by ices. the islamic state of iraq and syria that is not only fighting in iraq, but also syria.

to defend itself, syria defended ices and now within the borders of iraq. this week, in and around the town, a border town in iraq used by ices. ices wants to form a sunni dominant country under strict islamic law. to accomplish that, ices occupied a third of iraq and is battling the forces of iraq's shiite leader, al-maliki. who has formed the government, shiite dominated, that the sunni population in iraq resents. john kerry wants al-maliki to form a new, more inclusive government in the hopes it will ease sectarian tensions and keep outside forces like syria and iran from filling any vacuum. >> we want the government formation as rapidly as possible. it represents unity for the country. >> but al-maliki is less than willing. here's what he says about a multiconstitutional government

in the manner of the nation of bosnia, quote, the call to form a national salvation government represents the cue against the constitution and the political process, unquote. >> question, president obama asked congress for $500 million. is he going to get it? >> i don't know if it's a good idea, because it's not clear what this money is going to go towards. if this is supposed to be a way to reach out to moderate sunni's inside syria and get them to fight against isil, this al-qaeda group that spanning the border of iraq and syria, possibly, but i really think the policy of the administration has been to trickle money into moderate opposition forces in syria to fight against assad, the syrian president. what happened here, is assad is fighting against the terrorists, or so he says.

i'm not sure that this does anything other than further confuse the policies. >> so far ahead of obama's foreign policy. we look at that region and we see iran, iraq, and syria. we see three countries. they look at it as a fight between shiites and sunni's. you have the syrian air force constructing the air strikes that maliki would like the u.s. government to do. so there are no permanent alliances or permanent interests. we have interests with people we would necessarily regard as our enemies. it is totally confusing and i actually think the most courageous thing to do right now is nothing. >> here, john, let me say. $5500 million to overthrow assad. he is on our side, but secondly, you can't do this without the authorization of a congress of the united states. senator tim kaine has joined ron paul and said look, this is a new war.

the president has not authorized to take us into a new war in iraq or in syria and to do that, you need a vote of the congress and not only aught to have a vote, they aught to debate what we are debating now and is it wise to go back in there militarily? >> the people that will complain about that in congress are the same people that said the administration should have been supporting the army all along and now he is finally making moves to do it. >> and the bush 2002 resolution is legally still applied. >> mort. i'll repeat what i said before on this show. this is a much more important struggle and confrontation than we are talking about. it is really critical that we find a way to deal with iraq, because the borders on saudi arabia and kuwait, our whole position in the middle east is at stake here. it is critical that we find -- i wouldn't want to stop and not

do anything when this is the -- i haven't gotten that far yet. but one of the things we have to do is get involved there and try and prevent this thing from unraveling as it has been without any of the kinds of things we can do. >> we already are involved. >> more humanitarian point. >> embargo against the iranians globally, while exploiting oil with ours and british and chinese companies from southern iraq, we have done both of those things. who is ahead in there? influencing the situation. >> let's talk about the people who are really suffering. global refugee crisis. >> ices fighters in iraq are capturing cities and towns and spreading terror. the number of iraqis who have fled their homes and left their belongings exceed a half million people. an estimated 300,000 of these iraqis flooded northern iraq.

life is harsh for the uproot. living in makeshift camps under sweltering skies, no electricity, no gas. these people whom the u.n. calls displaced persons, are adding to a shocking total worldwide that has risen to proportions not seen since the second world war. get this. as of 2013 last year, according to the u.n., the number of refugees internally displaced persons, total 51.2 million people. the first time that number has surpassed the 50 million total as noted since world war ii. >> it's because we are witnessing a multiplication of new conflicts in the world. and the global conflict generates global displacement. and at the same time, old conflicts seem never to die. >> half of the world's refugees

fled three countries. afghanistan, syria, and somalia. the countries that host the most refugees are under immense strain as humanitarian organizations struggle to provide relief to the multitudes, pakistan. 1.6million refugees. iran, 857,000. lebanon, 856,000 refugees. jordan, and turkey, 610,000 refugees. another heartbreaking fact. half of the world's refugees are children. >> question, why is this order and war fair escalating around the planet? why has the refugee tragedy not been so high since world war ii? mort zuckerman. >> in part, because you have communities there that have the

most limited kind of, shall we say, strength of place. i mean, they are completely vulnerable to these kinds of waves of attacks from either side. they don't know what to do. they have no way of defending themselves. there's no real law and order there and this accumulates and we have a human crisis and tragedy going on here. >> try to get a sectarian war breaking out, the christians are getting slaughtered over there, and it's going to broaden and widen and it's very hard to see now how it's going to stop. i don't think we'll put humpty dumpty together again. >> with borders drawn a long time ago and you have nationalistic rising, plus, you don't have enough jobs so you have a lot of young men who are, you know, creating problems and following extremist ideologies. >> exit question. given the prevalence of chaos around the war, is it fair to conclude that president obama

has been a transformative president, but not in the way he intended, pat buchanan. >> john, events are in the saddle and ride mankind. he is not responsible for all of this. he is in power when it's all coming down. >> yeah, you can't lay this all at the feet of an american president. if we could rule the world in a humanitarian way, that would be great, but we learned we can't do that. >> john, barack obama was elected because of the penjelum needed to swing the other way. compasser baiting problems. >> mort. >> i agree with general, this is something that obama happened to inherent on some level. i will also say one thing. what he did with syria, so eroded, the credibility of the united states and the role it's going to play in that region, that is something that has to be layed at his footsteps.

i think that is something we'll have to live with, where we have much less credibility and we have to over react in order to restore our credibility. we simply can't let this kind of thing just run out of control. >> in regards to syria, his piece about a month ago on syria and the london review of books. that's an eye opener. an eye opener, and i think it would support your view that syria was innocent when those bombs were set off. >> right. >> killing those children. issue three, putin the piece nick. >> now we believe there t is critical for president putin to prove by his actions, not just his words, that he is indeed fully committed to peace. it is critical for him to stop the flow of weapons and fighters across the border. to call publicly to the

separatists to lay down their arms. pull equipment back, and to help get osee hostages released. this was the message on ukraine from john kerry to russia's president, vladimir putin. but mr. putin is the head of mr. kerry. putin called on russia's parliament to rescind this authorization of the use of military force in ukraine. putin's move came during a fragile cease fire declared by ukraine's new president, the chocolate olagark. on wednesday, president putin conferred by phone for more than one hour with french president, olan, and german chancellor, angela. the four leaders discussed the mechanism between prorussian

accept sepratists. unless president putin takes steps to deescalate the situation, president putin may face further economic sanctions. >> also on friday, ukraine's president signed a long awaited trade deal with the european union. question, is this the light at the end of the tunnel? are we firmly on the path to a negotiated resolution of the ukraine crisis? guy taylor, in 25 words or less. >> i think we're at the beginning of the end of the tunnel, but the russians are still sending troops in the -- equipment into eastern ukraine and massing equipment on the border. 27 words. >> russians are doing that? >> yeah. on the border he is. he is making moves with the parliament and getting on the phone with other european leaders, but the state

department throughout this week threatened more sanctions against moscow specifically because of intelligence. >> with those threats in the way he has been conducting himself the last ten days? >> what putin is doing is slicing the europeans off from the americans and some aren't going to go for sanctions. i don't think putin wants a conflict there. happy to keep them inside the ukraine, but he is going to have a problem if ukraine and georgia hook up with the european union. but i think he wants out of the military conflict. >> the russian is climbing down, he doesn't want another round of sanctions, the administration doesn't trust him. it looks like the thing has been defused. >> there's more. warsaw jitters. >> russia's annexation of cry crimea has shaken them. get this from a recording from

poland's prime minister, quote, the polish american alliance isn't worth anything. it is detrimental because it creates a false sense of security for poland. >> how much credibility did they lose over ukraine? you have a question, pat? >> this is something that we talked about before, the president's credibility in that part of the world under these circumstances is as low as it could be, like it or not. nobody believes he will do anything other than talk, and this is a real problem for the united states. as we say in a moment like this, our friends are worried about us and our enemies do not fear us, and that is a real problem for anything we want to do. there's no fence that they will be any consequences on the part of the soviet union and part of russia. >> you've had the vice president over there reassuring them if putin goes into any of

those countries in nato, the u.s. will act militarily. >> out of time. bye bye.

this week on "moyers & company," learning from "lawrence of arabia," and the truth about lies. >> government and companies lie, frequently, actually. if we don't know the truth, then this idea of democracy is a -- it's ludicrous. it doesn't work if you don't have information. >> announcer: funding is provided by -- anne gumowitz, encouraging the renewal of democracy. carnegie corporation of new york, supporting innovations in education, democratic engagement and the advancement of international peace and security at carnegie.org. the ford foundation, working with visionaries on the front lines of social change worldwide. the herb alpert foundation, supporting organizations whose mission is to promote compassion and creativity in our society.