good evening from los angeles. i'm tavis smiley. tonight first a conversation with the creators of the freakonomics franchise steven d. levitt and stephen j. dubner. it was a best selling book and then a documentary, a radio show, and now a blog. now they're back with a new freakonomics called "think like a freak." love the title. then we'll pivot to a conversation with fwramy and tony winning singer jennifer holliday. after 23 years hiatus she's back with a new album after "dream girls." the song is you and she'll close out tonight with a performance. we're glad you joined us. a conversation and performance from jennifer holliday coming up right now.

contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. ♪ >> you know not thinking with conventional thinking to be sure. now we have steven d. levitt and stephen j. dubner, the men

behind the best-selling text that became a radio show, a documentary, ask a blog, whatever they want it to be. everybody is talking about it. steven and stephen, good to have you both on this program. >> thank you for being here. >> let me jump in. the best way i discovered dush know, i read all the stuff you guys have done, and for me the best way to give the audience what's in this is to let you talk about what's in it, and the lesson we can learn about how -- i want to make room and i'll stay out of the way. i do want to start by asking what are the biases to learning to think like a freak? >> we're all biassed, in many different ways. politically, religiously. idealogically. that's fine. nobody wants to live in the world where everybody thinks the same. the key is to where your biases are holding you back to solving problems. if you lead with your morale compass always, which many of us like to do, with our predict

mr -- political compass, that's the mistake. people should step back and put the morale compass away, and learn what you know and what you don't know, ask good questions, and that really -- as simple as that sounds that's what thinking like a freak is. >> i want to come back to the morale compass. that's the one that i want to push back on you. you want to add to that? >> i think it's great. what we put together is kind of -- the quote magic and what we do, and turned out not to be that magical. things like being willing to add knit you don't know the answer and then being willing to act like a child, think like a child, and we have a list of those that have proven valuable to us in life, and we thought maybe it would be helpful to others as well. >> i want to jump into those for a second. let's start with just to your point of setting aside the morale compass. to my mind -- i don't want to sound like a moralist, but to my

mind part of what's wrong with our society, too many people for all kinds of reasons set aside their moral compass in their decision making, and that's why we're in the mess that we're in. i think your point -- that one kind of -- i want to push back on that a little bit. >> if you are talking about the world of high finance, a lot of people would say they have entirely set aside their moral compass, and that does produce a lot of problems. i wouldn't argue with you there at that time. our point is let's say there's a problem you want to solve. the energy crisis or the energy situatn. one example, we didn't actually include this this in the book. we probably should have. years ago there was a strong environmental movement against nuclear power. okay? it coalesced about the same time as the three mile island disaster. the environmental push against nuclear power made us basically

stop building nuclear reactors. we let them build them in france and all around the world. our technology, by the way. we started burning more and more coal. if you look at how damaging coal is to the environment, to coal miners, but also the pollution, you see if you approach a problem like that from a purely moral stance of we have to protect the environment and nuclear power is bad and you make your conclusion before you know the facts, it might lead to you a worse place, which is more coal. that's what we mean. put away your moral compass temporarily. what you think you know about an answer is right. put that aside and find the facts. >> i would say our approach is try to understand how the world works. not how you want the world to work. right? i think. >> now that i know that nuclear power has a lot of benefits even though it feels bad, how do i trade off this? >> one thing i resonated with and my staff knows this.

i told this story a thousand times. my teacher in high school she asked me a question, and i said i don't know. she looked at me and said -- i said wron. and she said you get an f for the day. >> really? >> you can redeem this f for the day if you come back in tomorrow with the answer. she said mr. smiley, first, you know -- not that it matters. i'm a brack kid in an all white high school. this is a white teacher. she's demanding as much of me as any other white student. she said this is what i want you to say if you don't know the answer. you say, dr. owed is, i don't know the answer to that question today, but i will know the answer to that question tomorrow.

tell me you don't know -- don't throw your hands up and say i don't know. we have a great section in the book about the value of being able to say and being willing to say wron. again, that's counter to culture. nobody in our world today, not politicians, not media people, nobody wants to admit and say i don't know. can you imagine a presidential candidate in a debate just saying i don't know. i'll look into it. i don't have my mind made up on it. i don't know. >> would i vote for that one for sure. i would personally. >> you were just saying the two big ralms where it never happens, media and politics. >> business, that's true. >> one realm where it does happen is the military. the military is kind of like your teacher. you were trained to say i will find out, sir. either i don't know and i'll find out -- it is just the spirit of inquiry. we argue that until you admit what you don't know, you're never going to find the real answer, and we really make the argument that there's a lot of bluffing and a lot of faking it and a lot of guessing. the reason people do it is because it makes them look good and they can get away with it,

frankly. >> don't you think, though, that the audience can see when you don't know and you are trying to talk around an answer? >> i mean, i teach m sometimes, and have i come to believe the primary thing you learn is how to talk when you don't have any idea what's going on. >> i'm curious. >> how do you do it successfully? look a person right in the eye and say it with complete confidence and hope that no one has google on their iphone so they can tell what the real answer is and catch you until you're out of the room. >> that's crazy, though. >> think small. >> yeah. you know, we're surrounded by big problems, and people who have been attacking the same big problems for years and years and years and years, and often they're not getting anywhere. education. let's say education. this country, we used to be near the top of the world in education. now we're kind of down towards the middle at best, right? there are a lot of reasons for

that. used to be, first of all, used to be the most college educated women were school teachers. then, you know, those women went into different fields. but -- a lot of people come up with big grand plans. we have one example. it's very small. this is the kind of thinking we advocate. we write about these guys. economists who went to china, they noticed something very small. you look at all the kids in a fourth or fifth grade class. none of them were wearing glasses. they thought either there's no myopia here. they tested them and found out a lot of kids needed glasses and set up an experiment. they got some $15 glasses from the world bank or somebody, and those kids that they gave them to did about one year's worth of school better in a year than the kids who didn't have it. will that solve the entire education problem? of course not, but what would you rather -- this is what we advocate. what would you rather do? fix a small problem well or answer a small problem well or flail around at the big ones and pay a lot of lip service.

>> one of the things i know is that you always challenge, wrovl, conventional wisdom, and we live in a world, again, where we are always told the value of sticking it out, finishing the project. you know, quitters never win and winners never quit, and you guys say in the text another piece of advice i learned is that you have to praise to value quitting sometimes. >> somehow we've gotten an idea that failure and quitting are the same thing. it's completely wrong. the real truth is when you keep on sticking with something and you get old and say, damn, i wish i had done something completely different from that. all of the biases we know from psychology lead people to keep on doing what they're doing. the pain -- when you want to quit, you feel the pain today, and the benefit in the future. you avoid the pane. we've actually done research. i got 40,000 people to come to a website called freakonomic experiments where they would flip a coin to help them decide a big decision. should i get divorced or should

i quit my job? people actually followed the coin flip, if you can believe it. they made these big decision based on that. what we're seeing is that quitting is not bad. quitting is good. >> how do we -- how do we start the process of retraining our brains? >> to retrain your brain, we argue, look, we're just two guys who work it through and no one should follow what we say as gospel, but there's a lot of ways. i think honestly the ease wrest and most important message of "think like a freak" is the first one, think. it is astonishing how easy we can all go through the world -- this is a great thing. you can get by and be pretty happy without thinking ever, but, you know, set aside a half hour or hour to rethink the way you make decisions, the habits you have, the biases you may have, and if you think of things -- if you come with a little bit of a blank slate sxb willing to acknowledge what you don't know and be willing to think like a child, i think it will help individuals and society at large. >> i love to read whatever these guys do because they always

challenge me to kind of re-examine my assumptions and expand my own inventory of ideas. i think when you took the copy of "think like a freak" the authors of "freakonomics" steven d. levitt and stephen d. dubner. coming up, a conversation and performance from fwramy and tony winner jennifer holliday. stay with us. jennifer holliday's voice has been described as soar and commanding, to be sure it is. but it also been absent from the recording studio for far too long. that's changed now with the release of her first cd -- solo cd, that is, in 23 years. it's titled "the song is you." she'll close our show tonight, and i'm glad about it, with a performance of "the one you used to be." you do not want to miss this.

jennifer holliday, i'm honored to have you on this program. >> thank you so much. >> you look great. >> thank you. >> this is such a huge issue in our society. such a huge issue with people trying to manage weight, but you are one of those persons that took the weight off, and you kept it off for how long? it's been years now. >> it's been since 1990. >> it's been a struggle, or have you gotten used to the way you live your life now? >> everything is our mind, and i had to change my mindset towards food. i love food for nourishment, but he don't take home doggy bags or the pressure to finish my plate, and it's all mental for me. >> to my ear, and i've been a jennifer holliday fan for years. to my mind i did not notice any difference in your sound before or after -- the instrument has always been there. that's just my ear. you're the artist here. anything different about your sound? >> well, yes.

it did change quite a bit as a lot of entertainers will tell you, and like i said, it's all mental. i couldn't fathom putting on 200 pounds again, so when i lost the weight, my voice was a lot thinner. i began to work out, and during my aerobics, i would sing, so it's all now breathing and actually i think my voice is a little higher and stronger, but you had to work at it to sound like myself, to get it back. you know how people are. child, she don't sound the same. she look good, but she don't sound the same, okay? i think she need to eat some chicken, all right? >> not hitting notes like she used to. yeah, yeah. what did -- what did the american idol, idol appearance do for you? i raise that because there's a whole new generation of kids, young people, who got to know you when you showed up on "american idol." >> yes. well, it made me relevant again, and even though they were

talking about the attendants in terms of watching was lower 14 million and 13,000,099 more than i had before. i was grateful. so many young people -- so many people all over the world saw that performance with little jessica sanchez and have brought me back to this place where i could sing, now where i can perform live and have some courage to kind of step out there even though i'm late, but i'm happy and late, you know, in a better space. i'm hoping that god, as he would be in his grace, would let me do this now another 15 years. >> so then after 23 years -- for me it doesn't seem like 23 years only because i find myself listening to your stuff all the time. >> thank you. >> that album "i'm on your side," oh, lord, i could literally run the sequence of the songs because i listen to it all the time. you're always present in my

ipod, and, yet, it has been 23 years, which leads me to ask, what took so long for a solo project? >> well, you know, leaf for me ain't been no crystal stare. >> i love that line. >> as you know, when you first started your show, i suffered greatly with depression, and you had me on, and we talked about it. depression plus i had multiple sclerosis, and that had its terrible affects of not feeling well, but fwraert than the ms is the mind. i tell you, if you don'tave a will to get that mind together, i don't see how you could win, and so when i got diagnosed with ms and they said i asked them, well, why aren't i able to walk, and they said, well, your brain is not sending a signal to your legs. i'm, like, well, i already have a brain disease. i have depression. one of them got to go. you know? one of them got to go. so i started kind of really

focussing on the mind, trying to get clarity, you know, trying to get ahold of my depression, and not fight to be in the darkness and cripple. it's like i can't be depressed and crippled. we got to do something. you know? so i really thought of mentally and it just took just took time. then music changed, you know. r & b no longer defined. we don't even own r & b no more. justin timberlake and robin thicke represent r & b now. it's a whole other life. i had to see if there was a time, and actually that "american idol" performance, i'm glad you mepgsed it, because it did give me courage to say maybe i should sing something again, and, you know -- >> the artist like you is not just an r & b was challenged during that particular period and still may be on some of that, but the melody went out

the window. >> yes. >> if -- >> all the beat. >> that's it. if you want something without melody, you don't want jennifer holliday. there's got to be e-mail day here, and that's so much of what you do. we'll go back to the issue that you were struggling with before -- i would rather hear that. how did this challenge your faith? i have always known you as a person of faith. you come out of the black church tradition like so many other artists. how did the afflictions challenge your faith? >> well, wropt to, you know, be disingenuous and say i had so much faith, and i believe god will see me through. i did not believe god would see me through. i asked him quite a few times what was going on, especially when i got the diagnosis of ms. i'm already struggling. i'm poor. i don't have a swrob. i don't have music. whatever. during my dark times it was where god was saying i'm the one that loves you and i'm going to stay here and prove it to you, and i'm going to bring you out

of this. i fell in love with god in the midst of the illness and not beforehand, and then my faith got even more stronger. >> the song is you. how would you describe this record? >> it is love. love in a way that we haven't heard it in a while. you know, nancy wilson, etta james, those that poured it out, you snn. >> not to mention everything i love is on here. every track on here you dedicate to a particular artist. >> yeah. yeah. you know, we all get it from somewhere, so i wanted bring music back. also just because i'm just so happy i just thought maybe i would try -- i'm going to sing. child, come on now. come on. i'm going try. it will get grayer later. 50 is the new 30. >> if you are going to live, you're going to walk, and you're not going to not be depressed,

you might as well tell all. >> hallelujah. >> we're going to try a little love tonight. jennifer holliday is in the house, and she's going to perform for us after i tell you that she has a new project out, nd while i understand what the delay was all about, it's about time, and i couldn't be happier. i've been playing this thing like crazy in my car. it's called jennifer holliday, the song is you, and now for those of you that recalling her from dream girls and back in the day, she still got it. you know she's got it. if you don't know any of that, you're about to see that she's still got it because she's going to step up and perform right now, and she's going to -- what are you sing sng. >> the one you used to be. that song i wrote. >> i didn't know that. all right. she's going to sing it, and she wrote it. she tried everything. love, writing songs, sicking songs. i'm honored to have you on this program. i love you, and i'm glad to have you back. >> thank you. i love you too. >> here comes jennifer performing "the one you used to be." i'll get out of my way and say good night. enjoy this, and as always, keep

the faith. ♪ ♪ seems like yesterday you came to see me and took my breath away ♪ ♪ so in love with you ♪ so deep in love with you ♪ i remember how you took my hand, promised me the love would always last we shared so many dreams together thought we could make it through any kind of weather ♪

♪ but that's all over now ♪ don't take away my memories ♪ just let me hold on, baby ♪ to the one you used to be ♪ don't take away my memories ♪ i need to believe, baby ♪ i need to believe you once loved me ♪ ♪ oh ♪ it's strange that not a day goes by i don't look back and wonder why, where did our love go ♪ ♪ do we even know, baby

♪ i thought we would be together for life saw us walking side-by-side i wish i could find the words to tell you how much i miss you, baby ♪ ♪ let's give our love another try, yeah ♪ ♪ don't take away my memories ♪ just let me hold on, baby ♪ until the one you used to be ♪ don't take away my memories ♪ just let me hold on, baby ♪ i need to believe ♪ he once loved me

♪ hmm, hmm ♪ can't you see how you're hurting me ♪ ♪ stop this pain, baby ♪ i don't even know who you are anymore ♪ ♪ what happened to the one you used to be ♪ ♪ what happened to the love you promised me ♪ ♪ i'm still holding on to your love ♪ ♪ don't take away my memories ♪ just let me hold on, baby ♪ i need to believe

♪ i need to believe you once still loved me ♪ ♪ oh ♪ i need to believe you once loved me ♪ [ applause ] >> for more information on today's show, visit tavsz smiley at pbs.org. heavy, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for a conversation with astronaut buzz aldrin and chaz ebert about the documentary about her husband's life.

xxxxx by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. xxxxx er

>> rose: welcome to the program am we begin this evening with the former deputy secretary of defense ashton carter. >> we are necessary to the solution of many world problems. but we're not sufficient any more. part of that, that doesn't have to do with the diminution in our power relative to others, it has to do with the way the world works. how widespread technology is. how widespread social media are the. the ability of people everywhere to participate more. and that means that our power and our influence a conveyed in a different way. and so when you're looking at a situation we're obviously looking at iraq, afghanistan and so forth, the way you approach them in today as the united states is i think to recognize that we are a necessary but usually not sufficient force to affect the policy