hi, i'm tom marino at cohn reznick we believe that all citizens need to be informed about the issues that effect their daily lives that's why we're proud to support the programming produced by caucus educational corporation and their partners in public television energy efficiency and the environment next on caucus new jersey funding for this edition of caucus new jersey has been provided by englewood hospital and medical center felician college td bank pseg committed to improving nj's economy and strengthening its communities horizon blue cross blue shield of new jersey choose new jersey our mission is attracting companies to the garden state and by the fidelco group promotional support provided by the record north jersey's trusted source and northjersey.com and by the new jersey business and industry association and its monthly magazine

new jersey business [music playing] [music playing] welcome to caucus i'm steve adubato new jersey is looking to decrease energy consumption and increase the use of renewable energy however doing this may cost more than we really can afford. here to discuss the reality of these energy choices we have frank felder is the director of the center for energy economic and environmental policy at rutgers university jeff tiddle is the director of the new jersey sierra club sara bloom vice president of energy at the new jersey business and industry association and finally mark warner director of energy at sustainable jersey i want to thank all of you for joining us and folks throughout this program you're gonna see important websites that have very important information let me ask you something mark this whole question by the

way sustainable jersey is? it's a not for profit based at the college of new jersey that helps local institutions make their towns more sustainable very well said now here's the thing as we're getting ready for this show i'm thinking to myself okay we're connecting the issue of renewable energy with the environment right? what is that connection? the connection is primarily greenhouse gasses associated with climate change but also other health and environmental effects ozone particulates but in addition it connects with job anenergy security as we're seeing in europe in relationship between the use of fuel and the events on the ground there well take a step back because we used a lot of language that we assume people understand i started thinking okay so if we want to talk about renewable energy solar wind water geothermal whatever okay look at the other side of the equation what we're trying to reduce okay fossil fuels coal oil and natural gas right you good with me on that so far? absolutely yes

is it fair to say that on one end here jeff we're trying to reduce the use of fossil fuels and increase the use of renewable energy simple to start with that argument right? yeah why is that so hard? because there's a lot of vested interests that make money off of the fossil fuel industry and there's a lot of jobs there too what we have to show is not only clean energy good for the environment but it's good for the economy and will create jobs and i think that's the important message that we have to show that it is much more cost effective to do renewable energy because one you're reducing pollutants and protecting people from health impacts of those pollutants at the same time you're also growing... you know the biggest job growth in this country right now is in the clean energy sector but it's interesting jeff argues when i ask what the obstacles are i'm sure there are many mm hmm that's vested interest would you argue that it isn't that simple? well i think in new jersey business is the largest rate payer and we consume 64 percent of the electricity and so when you look at

what does business need? they need reliable power and they need affordable power and unfortunately our renewables aren't always as reliable as yeah give us an example because we want to be able to turn on a switch yes and we want the lights to go on we want the air conditioner working we want the heat to work we want these things to work that's reliable? yes okay you're connecting these renewable alternatives if you will engy sources with the issue of reliability give us an example well we need a diverse portfolio and so we need to have all these different options on the table but if you look at it a nuclear power plant will turn the switch on nine out of ten times a solar panel will turn it on one out of ten times and so when you're going forward and trying... where does that information come from by the way? wel they have different reliability. and if you think about it it's pretty simple the sun's not out at night so right away solar panels are decreased in their reliability to produce power and then if you look at wind it tends to operate

when the wind blows and so when does that happen? whereas our traditional fuels we can fire up a plant we can have it run there's going to be routine maintenance and averages but they all feed into each other so in the summer when our air conditioning's on and everybody wants their air conditioning on we need all those different sources to help us meet the goal a diverse portfolio? talk about it? um yeah and i think we need to sara's point we need to really distinguish between reliability and availability and things like... oh reliability and availability? distinction? and those are the things i was talking about like you said when you flipped a switch it comes on every time we want but that's availability and reliability the real issue with renewables is intermittency so solar can kind of come or go wind could come and go but they're actually extremely reliable the sun comes up every single day and when you look at the technology you know there are solar systems that have been out there 20 years without a single failure so reliability is in fact very very high the issue when you

deal with it is intermittency and the fact that these things run at times different than traditional plants but there's a solution to that which is that we add to the renewable mix storage capability which now addresses those intermittent issues allows us to make those resources available when we need them right and has a lot of other benefits as well so we need that diverse portfolio and we need to add to the traditional source as more advanced technology like storage talk costs cause i started excuse me for interrupting when i started the program i said well a lot of people say they want we want to move in the area of a lot of these renewable energy sources move away from our reliance on certain fossil fuels to some degree but the cost is an issue is it? yes it is and there are two types of costs so the costs that businesses and you and i pay are bills those are market costs and then there are non market costs the environmental implications the health implications the energy security implications those you and i don't see on our bills and so when we talk about cost we need to be clear are we talking about just what we're paying on our

bill are these other externatities these additional costs so when you add in with storage which is still being developed so to your question is it just vested interest perhaps that's a part but also the technologies need to improve both with storage demand response smart grid and integrating these intermittent renewables in a way that businesses and more importantly consumers get the electricity they need what do you think most people want though jeff? what we say we want again there's a lot of put it this way for those of us in public broadcasting are trying to provide information for people so they can make the most important decisions to express their point of view to elected officials policy makers and others so it's easy to say what do people want? well people want the most reliable energy that is not intermittent but they also want to reduce our carbon footprint they want to do... okay can we have those things? yes we can and one of the things that you fail to mention is that one of the good things about solar is that it helps reduce peak demand because... explain that give su a for instance? well people don't realize on your energy bill you pay a certain rate normal

time and at peak time summer time dinner time you're paying like 26 cents you're paying almost double solar actually helps reduce your peak demand because it produces at that point dropping costs and so it becomes much more cost effective they're building utility scale solar in the west in part of the united states cheaper than building traditional power plants we can also do wind off our coasts which will be running 65 percent of the time and if we have enough wind windmills will always be blowing somewhere but you can really reduce you know the need for fossil fuels but the biggest and the most important part is energy efficiency for every dollar we spend on energy efficiency for a home you save four for every dollar business spends they save sixteen so do us a favor jeff mm hmm the term energy efficiency i bet you if you ask people are you for energy efficiency i can't imagine who would say no i'm for being i'm for inefficient energy but from a practical point of view give us an example of what that would mean someone watching right now yeah i want to be a part of that

what does it mean? well it means buying energy star appliances that use traditionally a lot less power than normal it also means better insulation for your home better windows the average home in new jersey which was built prior to the 1990s for a cost of a few thousand dollars could actually reduce the amount of energy they need from about a third to 50 percent. and that's because we have a lot of older homes that are not as efficient they don't have the same amount of insulation and so that's the best way is to really... to reduce energy use overall through efficiency which will mean you need less power sources and in fact businesses more and more businesses either i don't want to say well part of it's retrofitting it and redesigning in the way jeff was describing that's one end but on the other end aren't there a lot of businesses who are when they're building the building they're building in different ways to be more energy efficient as jeff was describing right? they are and sustainability is a huge factor now for business and looking at how can you improve your buildings so perhaps you're building green give us a for instance

everyone's gonna say they're for buiding green too but i want to be concrete in terms of what that might mean well i think it can be as simple as looking at can you install skylights to have natural lighting in your building and not necessarily have to have your compact flourescence everywhere okay so i want to be clear so your ceiling? mm hmm your roof instead of doing what you would do what? well i think many of us have been in a traditional office building where you may have cubicles and you're gonna have your overhead lighting and as we're building new buildings we're looking at can we install in skylights can we have using natural light? yes can we have different types of windows so that they're more insulated do you buy as jeff had said all of your computers that are energy star so that you're using less power what does that mean energy star? that's a program the us epa has a the environmental protection agency yes they have a certification i think probably most people

are familiar with energy star or if they're buying a washer and dryer but they certify other things as well and it can be commercial refrigerators it can be you know what types of equipment you're putting in your factory? what does it mean? it means that it has gone through a process and that it uses less power okay than a traditional appliance and well you need more of that we do and i think that that's something that people understand but again going back to some of what you were saying earlier what can your viewers do? we actually have a program here in new jersey the clean energy program and it's not quite as well known as energy star but they also subsidize different appliances you might go to shop rite and find you can find a compact flourescent for a dollar whereas a couple years ago they were five dollars and that's all funded through the rate payers on their electric bills and gas bills and you can do a home energy audit you can have your business have an energy audit and this all comes out of rate payer dollars

it's interesting you talk about community involvement mark talk to us about because sustainable talk to us about this sustainable jersey is advocating big time consumer citizens being very actively involved absolutely how do you do that? describe? um well we work a lot with municipalities on their particular operations but one of the areas that we're expanding now is how local institutions whether it's municipal government or schools can really impact the communities that they serve and there's a lot of ways that that can happen they can function as facilitators to help make purchases happen on an aggregated basis to reduce costs what is aggregated? so for example if you buy one thing at a time it costs a certain thing but if you get a whole group of people together and buy in you know as a group right you can get a much better price and the municipalities in schools can now start to do those sorts of things a lot of it is things like outreach and education a lot of it is improving codes and ordinances and simplifying processes we're you know we're also looking at programs where the municipality is

really encouraging or promoting parts of the clean energy program like energy star use or doing audits and taking that out to the community so they can really take best advantage of these programs that sara was talking about but shouldn't citizens sorry for interrupting mark shouldn't citizens be putting pressure on and encouraging elected officials to do some of these things? they are they absolutely are so you think a lot of it is coming from consumers? well we actually i'll come back to you we actually have a petition to the board of public the sierra club? the sierra club does in front of the board of public utilities not to actually adopt an energy efficiency standard we're one of the few states in the country that hasn't actually adopted a standard even pennsylvania has it and it's a way of benchmarking how we reduce energy use so right now we don't have that right we have a goal and a plan but we don't have an actual standard and we can actually save a lot of money in this state that way well talk about this because my understanding is the new jersey master plan energy master plan alright what we're talking about is a committment part of the plan

22 percent of new jersey's electricity will be renewable by the year 2020 was it a committment a deal a contract what is it? it's actually... was... go ahead it's actually a standard that's set into law where utilities have to actually buy credits and finance to make sure that... we have to get there? we have to get there which is actually a regulation that's in place and market's making it in place so that's just not oh we're trying to shoot for that we have to get there well in terms of the energy master plan it's... i don't think it the renewable portfolio standard that's a requirement well talk about it what is and what's not? okay so the renewable portfolio standard requires that people who but electricity on behalf of business and consumers a certain percentage and that percentage is increasing over time and includes solar and other types of renewables as well class one and class two moving away from the fossil fuels? that's right to replace and also counting for growth so that we do even those renewables tend to be more expensive in terms of the market prices in order to

grow that industry to promote jobs and to also clean up the environment and so that piece is a requirement in terms of the 20 percent reduction the goals and the energy master plan which respect energy efficiency that's just the target and jeff is making the important point that we should consider that being a mandate and then try to operationalize that yeal listen it's interesting because we're talking about reducing greenhouse gas emmissions by the way translate greenhouse gas emmissions in english the traditional interpretation of that is carbon dioxide which comes results from whenever you burn a fossil fuel but it can also include things like sort of renegade emissions and things like methane and other chemicals that have a very large effect as well the net is that all these chemicals that we're emmitting are resulting in an increased warming of the planet with lots of environmental and other consequences is that our carbon footprint that's our carbon footprint okay reducing greenhouse gas emmissions 80 percent by the year 2050

where is that from that's a law that's a law that's in the global warming response act the global warming response act what's that? it's a law that new jersey passed in 2007 that targets reductions in greenhouse gases to that level of because basically new jersey is a coastal state and you know we've seen the devastation from climate impacts with hurricane sandy and irene and everything else so the state of new jersey and our legislature made a committment to try to reduce overall or greenhouse gases by that much by that time and it's an important step forward we're the second state in the nation to call for that and california was first and that law sets the goal but it doesn't necessarily say how to get there but what we all know is it's gonna take a combination of efficiency to reduce the usage more use of renewables in order to eliminate the use of fossil fuels over the next 35 years and a lot of other enabling technologies like storage and so on let's talk transportation okay go ahead well i was gonna say we're talking transportation yes [laughter] because that's a big contributor to the problem so go ahead well and the good news is

too that the global warming response act also set goals for 2020 and our power plants have been meeting those goals since 2008 so we are on the right track and we've taken incredible steps but i think as you're leading into yeah talk about transportation our bigger problem right now is transportation and if you look at when new jersey was coming up through the industrial age we had many different manufacturing plants and those were called stationary sources cause they didn't move and over the years stationary sources have really cut their emmissions and our power plants sector have cut their emmissions and so now it's our mobile sources our cars and our trucks which are our biggest source of greenhouse gases so steve it's 40 to 50 percent of the carbon footprint is these mobile transportation sources and part of the reason is because those the engines in your car is one of the most inefficient users of fuel that you can imagine what do you mean? explain that well the internal combustion engine in your car only converts maybe 15 percent of the energy content of that fuel

to motion so the choice is for example if you look at electric vehicles as a replacement do we take that pound of fuel and burn it in a plant that's 15 percent efficient or do we burn it in a power plant that's 30 percent efficient and get the same amount of energy but at half the fuel use that would cut our carbon footprint significantly and you have a transportation alternatives program at sustainable jersey which advocates? both ev adoption by and consumers as well ev would you... can't stop... [laughter] electric... i'm sorry electrical vehicle adoption electric vehicle adoption okay [laughter] i'm sorry i interrupted what's changed is woah hold on electric vehicle adoption what? electric vehicle adoption by you know commuters primarily as well as but they're not accessible to us right now right? well they are quickly becoming accessible they're actually one of the fastest growing segments within the automobile industry will they be more accessible to us? they will be but it takes time it's a chicken in the head i don't put in an electric vehicle recharging station unless enough people drive an electric vehicle and whether the demand is there

exactly the demand's not gonna be there well unless what? you need to figure out policies in order to do that but it's not just the plug ins i mean we have been reducing new jersey past to what's called the california car program back in 2004 where cars themselves are reducing the amount of greenhouse gases cause cars today are much more efficient toward they are then they were 20 years ago 20 years ago by law? by law absolutely because the federal government got involved and said this is for a lot of people? no no it was actually the states together getting an exemption from federal law allowing them to do that and california was the first new jersey and new york hold on wait a minute ou're saying jeff that it wasn't the federal government through the epa right that created stricter well there were cafe standards and then there were states that went beyond that what standards? clear air clean standards yeah so new jersey... it's how many miles per gallon you're getting [laughter] so new jersey's one of 14 states that's gone beyond the federal government we've gone beyond? right so you're a tough critic and very demanding as to what you expect right

for good reason absolutely you say new jersey has been better than most states in this area absolutely this governor not as much but yes but we've said in states you had to get that in there didn't you? of course [laughter] but talk about what has made us better in this area? because we adopted this new york massachusettsia and did which not only makes our cars cleaner and burn more efficient it requires us to actually haqve a certain number of vehicles that become zero emmissions whether they're plugin electric or electric hybrids we've actually committed to putting this program forward and even our governor is going along with it you know currently where we're going to be having more cars on the road i think it's four percent by 2020 that are gonna be plugins that are gonna be zero emmission okay lisa let me ask you this jobs the connection between all this discussion and jobs jobs and then jobs yeah well i think from the business perspective we have a little bit different take on transportation and for many of our fleet vehicles it's much easier to run them on natural gas and looking at how are we able to change all the garbage trucks

our long haul tractor trailers and being able to put in some of that infrastructure but as jeff had mentioned earlier you actually get a bigger bang for your buck and also on greenhouse gases when you invest in business and so one of the things that have been doing in the business and industry association is looking for ways that the state can invest more in it's business rate payers so that we can help everybody within the state lower our electric bills lower our emmissions lower the greenhouse gases and become more efficient and that's one of the things we've been advocating for so whether it is retrofitting some of our older building or if it's installing natural gas charging stations so that we can change out more of our fleets that are running through our neighborhoods or looking at other ways that the state can help encourage businesses to come here and keep jobs because i would say it goes beyond renewables as well and energy costs are a big part of the cost of doing business here in new jersey and when we have the 7th highest electric rates that's not necessarily competitive and when we're the highest electric rates

within or electric grid which is made up of 14 states we're not being competitive with our neighbors next door what are the other job issues here? that's why it's important that we have a federal policy regarding greenhouse gases and carbon dioxide emmissions because if new jersey or just a few states do it alone first of all it won't solve the global problem unfortunately it's great that new jersey is doing what it's doing in other states but we need a national international policy but secondly back to the job issues the pennsylvania or another other state don't take the measures that we're doing whether it be paying for it and will have some consequences on the job because as sara pointed out the relative market costs of electricity or energy will be the incentive for people to move out of state that being said if we design the renewable policies correcting our energy efficiency policies correctly and get those supply chains which is a very tough lift because if we... what does that mean supply chain? well all the components that are built for an offshore wind turbine or many of the

components the maintenence crews the sighting of the port facilities i'm not saying those things will happen but it's trying to bring those jobs within the state and within the region which is very very difficult and the state has done a lot but it struggles all states struggle with it final comments here i just wanted to say that new jersey has 6,500 jobs in the solar sector and we you know we keep growing clean energy and renewable energy is actually one of the fastest growing areas from jobs and the economy and we've got competition on that from massachusetts and maryland and other places but it goes up and down and i mean mark we've got history here we've talked about this before things were going great and boom there was a period of time things got very tough mm hmm is it unpredictable? this is an emerging market so there are some bumps in the road but the ket thing about this is there certainly are some manufacturing jobs that we would all love to get but a lot of this clean economy work is things that can only be done by people here can't be done by people in other countries people need to come out to your home do audits do installations do maintenance

work people hear they're doing the financing and the marketing so one of the advantages of this clean economy job creation and a lot of it is people that really need to be here in the states these are new jersey jobs that are being created with new jersey benefits and that needs to be balanced against some of the other potential job consequences of the policies a few seconds left how much do you think citizens consumers right now are driving this as opposed to dealing with and responding to it based on decisions being made by policy makers? well again i think business has been playing a large role in this and if we look at corporations who have been pushing for sustainability over the years and being able to connect the environment and the economics of it it's been a win win for everybody and i think that's been trickling down to the consumer level as well and... you buy that? i do i think there are at the end of the day we will need a much broader and deeper consensus about moving towards these very ambitious goals that you laid out for 2050 for example

and it's gotta be more of a hat? i don't want to say rule... it's a societal committment to make this difficult but important transition and how we can do that in a way that's cost effective but it's a huge cost... it's not a big enough priority for enough people right now is it? right but understandably people have other priorities raising their children going to work you know caring for sick parents so it's tough i mean i think a lot of people are concerned but we really do need to try to broaden and persuade them as well well i'll tell you what we have a role in public broadcasting to play in this and having folks like you help us really makes our job easier thank you all very much yeah thanks you're welcome thank you the preceding program has been a production of the caucus educational corporation celebrating over 25 years of broadcast excellence and thirteen for wnet njtv and whyy funding for this edition of caucus new jersey has been provided by englewood hospital and medical center felician college td bank pseg

horizon blue cross blue shield of new jersey choose new jersey and by the fidelco group transportation provided by air brook limousine serving the metropolitan new york new jersey area caucus new jersey has been produced in partnership with tristar studios this program has been made possible in part by new jersey sharing network hi i'm peter rooney in 2006 i lost my father to renal disease he was on the waiting list for a new kidney but did not receive one in time unfortunately so many like my father have lost their lives while waiting for a life saving organ at new jersey sharing network we're committed to saving and enhancing people's lives through organ and tissue donation and by informing people about this important decision because you can make a difference and save a lifeer

captioning sponsored by macneil/lehrer productions >> woodruff: after almost a month of fighting, israel pulled its ground troops out of gaza as a three day cease-fire began, setting the stage for possible long term truce talks in egypt. good evening. i'm judy woodruff. >> ifill: and i'm gwen ifill. also ahead this tuesday: why investing in companies that promote women leaders can be good for your pocketbook. >> there's actually research that shows that women are better investors. so what you actually see amongst venture capital startups, you'll see that women-owned companies perform better. >> woodruff: and the culture of violence for juveniles in jail. the justice department finds new