tv Charlie Rose PBS August 29, 2014 12:00am-1:01am EDT
12:00 am
>> welcome to the program. it is the end of summer, a time when we look back at some of the best moments in this program. tonight in our encore celebration we take a look at seinfeld as it celebrates its 25s-- 25th anniversary this summer, we mark the occasion with a look back at its cocreators and stars, jerry seinfeld, larry david, jason alex aner, michael richard and julia louis-dreyfus. >> it's not sitcom but it's not process through a large studio system. it's a few people working on this thing. an we're just doing what we think is funny. and the cast is amazing. it's an amazing group of talent. each one of the people in our cast could easily, easily hold down their own show. >> i felt like i was ready to do shall did -- i felt hi done that and now i wanted to try something else. >> seinfeld when we continue. funding for charlie rose was
12:01 am
provided by the following: >> there's a saying around here: you stand behind what you say. around here, we don't make excuses, we make commitments. and when you can't live up to them, you own up and make it right. some people think the kind of accountability that thrives on so many streets in this country has gone missing in the places where it's needed most. but i know you'll still find it, when you know where to look. >> rose: additional funding provided by: >> and by bloomberg. a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by
12:02 am
rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> who's on the show, who are the characters? >> i could be a character. >> you? >> yeah, your basic character of me. >> so on the show there is a character named george costanza. >> is something wrong with that, i'm a character. people are always saying to me, you know you're quite a character. >> and who else is on the show. >> elaine could be a character, cramer. >> now he's a character. >> so everybody i know is a character on the show. >> right. >> and it's about nothing. >> absolutely nothing. >> so you're saying i go into nbc and tell them i got this idea for a show about nothing. >> we go into nbc. >> we? >> since when are you a writer. >> writer, we're talking about a sitcom. (laughter) >> you want to go with me to nbc. >> yeah, i think we really got something here opinions
12:03 am
what have we got. >> an idea. >> what idea. >> an idea for the show. >> i still don't know what the idea is. >> it's about nothing. >> right. >> everybody's doing something. we'll do nothing. >> so we go in to nbc, we tell them we have an idea for a show about nothing. >> exactly. >> they say what's your show about. i say nothing. >> there you go. >> i think you may have something here. >> what can you say about jerry seinfeld that hasn't already poked fun at that he hasn't been talked about. he is a stand-up comedian that skewers modern life and modern problems with the dead-on accuracy of a swiss watch. it comes each week with a hit nbc series that exams his work an life like the classic jack benny an persons and allen program. seinfeld the television show reveals seinfeld the comedian as he starts and stumbles through friendships an bad career moves an love affairs an annoying feeling that adulthood itself is somewhat overrated. it gives a superb, you like this so far, a superb ensemble of cast, welcome.
12:04 am
>> why is the show so successful, do you think? >> i think it's handmade. it's a sitcom that is not processed through a network, through a large studio system. it's a few people working on this thing. and we're just doing what we think is funny. and the cast is amazing. it's an amazing group of talent. i mean each one of the people in our cast is-- could easily, easily hold down their own show. >> what holds it together? what's the glue of this show? >> we, there's, the egos are in check, frankly. and i think we're all happy to be doing good work. and we all have a lot of respect for each other. but the glue is larry david and myself working on every single line, every week of every show and it's not delegated, and no one interferes. >> . (laughter)
12:05 am
do women know about shrinkage. >> what dow mean, like laundry? >> no. >> like when a man goes swimming, afterwards. (laughter) >> it schridges? -- shrinks? >> like a frightened turtle. >> the creation of seinfeld. >> the creation of it. >> yeah reasons how did it happen. >> is that a question? >> rose: that's a question. did larry come to you or did you go to larry. >> i didn't go to him as much as i kind of turned in the bar in catch a rising star an said hey, i had a meeting the other day with nbc. they're interested in me doing some kind of show. he said what kind of show. i go i don't know. i don't know. i have no ideas. i never have any ideas. i done know how i do these things,, i have no ideas. >> rose: did you deally-- actually say that, i do stand-up and they like me. >> an hour goes by. he says you waj to get something to eat. i go yeah. so we go across the street
12:06 am
to the korean deli on first avenue an 78th and wandering around those delies, they got all kinds of stuff in there. >> rose: and a lot of stuff on the street. >> a lot of stuff on the street. sometimes there's weird stuff, like no labels just figure newtons wrap up in sell o feign with nothing, no identification. >> rose: you done know where it came from. >> you just go yeah,ity's take a shot on that. so we start making fun on the product,. and he said this is what the show should be. i go what, just two comedians talking, because this is what comedians do, they wander around during the day with nothing to do and make fun of everything that they see. we should do a show about just two comedians walking down the street and making fun of everything. that was the genesis. >> rose: was he going to be one of the comedians. >> no. >> rose: he was always going to be the creator an writer along with you. >> yeah. >> rose: an dave would be him. >> i mean george would be him. >> no. >> rose: no? >> well, george-- george was originally a comedian in the beginning. and then we thought go george is a comedian then
12:07 am
you have to see his act or you will want to see it, let's just make him a regular guy. i'll be a comediannd and he'll be a regular guy. >> rose: but he's not david. >> we come up with story idea, which character could do this idea. and a lot of times larry's ideas fit gorge well. we never tried to make george into an alter ego of larry. >> rose: some say this was the perfect marriage, you and larry david. a magical relationship. >> uh-huh. it was. >> rose: different sensibility. >> uh-huh. but not different comedic sensibility. different kind of guys. but he, it was one of those perfect partnerships where he saw a lot of big picture stories, he knew exactly what would be a great story for the show. he created tons of stories for the show and i had a great sense of mechanics of comedy and detail of lines and, you know, you know so we-- and we always, if any
12:08 am
idea could pass through both of our filters, it would work. if i thought it was funny and he thought it was funny, it almost always was funny. >> and what if he thought it was funny and you didn't, you didn't go with it? >> it would depend, you know, in a partnership you give-and-take. but we had a great some kind of filtering system. because that's what a sitcom is you sit in the office and writers come in all day and pitch you stories. and you have to say let's do that, let's not do that. and you were there by yourself, one person's instinct is really not good enough to churn out that amount of material. >> rose: but the test was you will never put anything on that's not funny. >> well, as best you can. there's no-- comedy is like hitting a baseball, you know. you're just trying to improve your average, nobody hits a thousand. >> rose: what do they hit, .300? >> a good hitter can hit .500, .700. >> rose: what did you hit on this show. >> on this show, the tv show. >> rose: .700. >> maybe. most of them were good.
12:09 am
there's very few clinkers out of the 180 shows. >> rose: there are people they say this is the best they have come ever. >> i love those people, where are those people r there any of them here. are you one of those people? >> rose: do you believe it? >> no, i don't think things like that. my favorite-- . >> rose: you don't ever want to see it in print that you said this is the greatest. >> no, that's absurd sudden. >> rose: tell me one that is bigger than this, better. >> for me the honeymooners makes me laugh more. >> rose: really? >> i am-- i'm sitting here watch at you laugh out loud. let's see if it's funny in 50 years like the honeymooners, let's see. >> rose: that's true. tell me how you and larry are different, are you more absurd or he more absurd. >> we take different position. here's where we're the same. we both love to kill it. we will work any amount of hours, our desire to avoid humiliation is so great in both of us, so desperately
12:10 am
did not want to be embarrassed by each episode coming out this week and as the show became more popular, the danger of that became greater and greater. we kept saying oh my god this thing is getting popular. now we have to maintain this ridiculous standard. so it became more and more terrorizing to run in front of this train. and but he has tremendous energy, tremendous fertility, comedic fertility. tons of ideas, there are people in this world that funny things happen to. >> rose: and he's one of them. >> he's one of them. >> are you one of them? >> no, i'm not. i am the kind of person who when something funny happens to you, i know just how to tell it. >> rose: did you study comedy? >> i-- that's what i do. i mean no, you can't study-- you mean formally. >> i don't mean you go to school and say i want to be a comedian and how do i get a ph.d in comedy. but you looked at it in analytical eye and said why does that work and what do i
12:11 am
have to do and where is my timing and where do i need to take it. >> yes. >> rose: a young comedian comes to you and says tell me what do i need to do to be a comedian. >> just work. >> rose: there's nothing you have a theory about logic and all of that and the absurd and you got to figure out a precise way to prove something that's unprovable? >> orbltion, yeah, well, comedic, one of the things that a good comedian can do is take an absurd premise an prove it with rig lus logic, that sounds very logical and you take something completely factuous. >> rose: did you learn that somewhere or did it just sort of -- >> i kind of observed it. you know, i look at a lot of good jokes and realize that they have that in common. but as a kid i would write down jokes i would see on tv and try and figure out why they were funny. i never get tired of why is that funny. i never get tired of talking about it, or analyzing it. i am very scientific about it. >> rose: when you decided to end seinfeld. >> yes. >> rose: you decided because larry had already left two
12:12 am
years earlier. >> how is it different when he left? >> it was very different. i mean i didn't know if i could continue the show. i really was pretty scared about it. but i didn't feel the timing was right for the show to end. i felt the audience, you know, wasn't ready and i wasn't ready. so i just kind of took over the script writing. >> rose: an worked twice as hard. >> i worked twice as hard. and i would work with -- i would rotate groups with other writers am i would take three guys and they would be larry. >> rose: we can't imagine how hard it was for to you do this. >> it was fun. i was having fun, charlie, it wasn't-- you foe. >> rose: but jack welch toll me a story once, who was the c.e.o. of general electric. >> uh-huh. >> rose: i think he wrote about this too but i'm not sure. that he wanted you to continue tore another season. >> yes. >> rose: and there was great fanfare about how much he offered you per episode, i saw a figure like $5 million. and i think he told me a story where he said he went to you and said you got to
12:13 am
do this. we want to you do this. and you said look, i just can't imagine myself on christmas eve writing. and that's where i have been too many times. >> i think he had called me one time to talk about it as i was making the decision. and he was in some fabulous ski resort. >> rose: playing golf or tennis. >> and it was a sunday. and i'm in the office working, you know. and i said what are you doing right now, jack. he says well i'm at, you know, mount snow, in aspen. i said you know where i am, i'm in the office working, you know. but the work was never an issue with me. the work was all out of love and fun. my real reason for ending the show was i just felt that kind of a stage instinct of knowing when to say good night. and have the audience go oh, i wish it was just a little more. and then they leave the theatre and they go that was great. but if you go ten minutes too long, it's amazing how it depresses that good feeling.
12:14 am
and that was-- and even though we're talking about years, i could just feel that moment. and gi you know what, if we leave now, the audience is going to be, you know, there's a thing that makes audiences jump up. and that's what it is, surprise them a little bit. >> rose: people have said it was a perfect instinct by you. >> really? >> rose: they have. >> i hope they're right. >> rose: they're clearly right. some said it will serve him the rest of his life. johnny carson made the right choice. >> uh-huh. >> rose: he left at just the right time. >> i did it, i did it for the audience. i thought if i leave now, they'll have this thing that they will never have to say it was good but then it started to kind of run out of gas. >> rose: -- toll me they stopped after like two years, he said he couldn't create as well as i used to. and before i got there, i could feel it but i hadn't gotten there. but i knew if we tried to do it one more time it might not be as good. >> i felt that. >> rose: it was time to go. >> i felt that also. >> rose: so what did you think you would do when you left. >> oh, i didn't care. i don't care what i do.
12:15 am
>> then i can't tell you the big news. >> news? what news? >> sorry. >> what? what? >> all right. but this is beyond news this is like pearl her per or the kennedy assassination, it's like not even news, it's total shock. >> come on jerry, please, please, please, please. >> george costanza. >> yeah? >> is getting married! >> we initially were pitching a show about how a comedian gets his material. so we would follow a comedian around in his daily life. we would go from the grocery store to the dry cleaner, maybe he would go on a datement we hang out with his friends and then at the end of the show he would do a monologue. incorporate it into the monologue would be some of
12:16 am
the things that we saw happen on the show. that, and that's ostensibly where the comedian got the material. and that was what we pitched to nbc. >> and nbc believed in the show so they said we're committing to four episodes. >> yeah, right, four episodes. >> rose: normally 13 or 8 or something. >> yes, at least, yeah. so we didn't really think that they had too much confidence in the show. >> rose: was it a hit? did you feel good about it from the beginning? >> i felt good just the fact that the four episodes were produced. because i had never produced four episodes before. and frankly, i didn't know that i was capable of doing that. so just the fact that we had four shows on the air made me very excited. i didn't think about the future. i thought phew, i got by, i did the four. okay. let's go back to new york. let's get on with our lives. >> rose: this is a reason i like you so much. now you, the story goes that you said when they wanted more, you said more? i can't do more? i've given you everything i have in these four episodes.
12:17 am
>> well, you know, i -- say it out loud. but i said it to my close personal friend. >> rose: jerry. >> like jerry, yeah. yeah. you know, i ran, i said look, i gave you the four things that happened to me in my life. what else can i possibly do. so then i had to actually come up with ideas like a regular writer. and i yeah, that we did 13 episodes, i had to do 13 episode-- 13 episodes. i almost started crying from the fear. >> rose: the masturbation sequence that we're going to see. >> how dare you. you know my parents are probably going to be watching this. >> rose: i certainly hope so. they probably are, did you create this, was this your idea. >> yeah. >> rose: from where? >> well, it's actually based on, you know, all right, i might as well say it, is based on something that happened to me. >> rose: you got caught, didn't you. >> i didn't get caught, no, i was in a-- i was in fact
12:18 am
in a contest. >> rose: all right. >> emerged victorious i'm proud to say, yes. >> rose: all right this is a famous episode in which you won an emmy. thank you very much. role tape. >> what's the matter? >> my mother caught me. >> caught you, doing what? >> you know. i was alone. >> you mean -- >> uh-huh. >> she caught you? where? >> i stopped by the house to drop the car off and i went inside for a few minutes. nobody was there, they're supposed to be working. my mother had a glamor magazine. i started leafing through. >> glamor? >> so one thing lead to another -- >> so what did she do. >> first she screamed george, what are you doing! my god! and then it looked like she was going to faints.
12:19 am
she started clutching the wool, trying to hang on to it, i didn't know whether to try and keep her from falling or zip up. >> what did you do? >> i zipped up. >> you're a good audience. >> rose: i know, i loved it. kind of a george michael thing, isn't it? >> uh-huh, yeah, i suppose. >> rose: this one of the most famous episodes of seinfeld ever. >> yeah, definitely. it got tremendous word of mouth, i guess. and i think it was one of the turning points in the history of the show. that and moving to thursday night. that's what really got us over the top. >> rose: why did you leave? >> well, charlie,. >> rose: i knew you were going to -- >> you see, i was feeling that i needed to-- no, you know, i had been there for seven years. and that's a long time to suffer the way i do in my daily life. and seven years is a long time for somebody to executive produce a show like that.
12:20 am
>> rose: did you burn out. >> no, it wasn't burn out, i had plenty of ideas, it wasn't that. >> rose: oh yeah? >> i was learning how to do it. it wasn't that, i just thought that i felt like i was ready to do-- i felt hi done that and now i wanted to try something else. and that's pretty much it. >> tell me about jerry the jerry that you know. >> no, tell me about it, you know this guy as well as anybody, you worked with him, you created with him, as you say you were on the same wavelength. >> yeah. you watched the show seinfeld. >> rose: yes, i did. >> there you go. >> rose: that's it, that's all i need to know. >> do you watch the show seinfeld. you watched gorge. >> rose: yes. >> there you go, that's all you need to know about me. >> rose: is that right? >> yeah. >> rose: so you're like a painter who says, picasso used to say everything you need to foe about me is right here in this painting. i have had composers come here, everything you need to know about me is in that
12:21 am
music. >> i'm very much like picasso, in many ways. my proclivity for sex, certainly. my output. we have a lot in common, me and piccy picasso. >> rose: you and pablo. >> yeah. no, jerry is a tremendous-- i will give you-- i will give you the quintessential seinfeld story, okay. >> rose: now we're going somewhere. >> when i was, it was about our third or fourth season in a show i was in a room talking to a few of the writerses. and i looked at one of the writers shirts and there was something a little off about the shirt. it was sort of, it was a bit of a diagonal going down and i said has jerry seen that shirt, you know? and he said no. and i said i'll bet you he comments on that shirt within ten seconds after he sees you, you know. and he said you got a bet. we bet 10 dollars.
12:22 am
maybe even 20 dollars. i said okay, all right. and i'm just about to leave the room and here he comes. he comes walking in. >> and i hang out at the doorway and he didn't even make eye contact with the guy and he's talking to somebody else and all of a sudden he turns and he said something to me and he goes was's the story with that shirt. >> rose: you know your guy. >> yeah. >> rose: you think alike. and he knows the same thing about you. >> yeah. >> rose: have you two ever talked about this motion of it is said that for jerry the show was fun. >> uh-huh. >> rose: for you doing the show was suffering. >> you know, i also have a lot of fun too. the most fun hi was the actual writing that we did together. those were great times. >> come on, george, finish the story. >> the sea was angry that day, my friend. (laughter) like an old man trying to send back soup in a deli. (laughter)
12:23 am
i got about 50 feet out and suddenly the great beast appeared before me. i tell you, he was ten stories high if he was a foot. as if sensing pie presence he let out a great bell owe. i said easy, big fella! and then as i watched him struggling i realized that something was obstructing its breathing, from where i was standing i could see directly into the eye of the great fish. >> whale. >> whatever. >> what did you do next? >> well then from out of nowhere a huge tidal wave lifted me, tossed me like a cork and i found myself right on top of him, face-to-face with the blow hole. i could barely see from the waves crashing down upon me but i knew something was there. so i reached my hand in, felt around and pulled out the obstruction. (laughter) >> rose: been asked this a thousand times. how do you explain it, that
12:24 am
one show captured the ethos of the time. >> you know, if we could explain it we probably would have screwed it up. >> if you knew it was happening you would have screwed it up. >> it was, i actually did bet money against it. jerry and i had a little wager. he said what do you think. and i said no way. >> rose: this is to the going to make it. >> i said why, i love the show and the audience for the show is me but i don't watch tv so who's coming. this is-- this is slightly more sophisticated level of comedy and it's not what television is used to. and i just don't think we're going to get anybody. and it started by attracting exactly me, you know, college boys, young men in the mid to late 20s. that was our key core audience. but then all of a sudden children were watching, 8, 9, ten years old. and my mother's generation, people in their 60s and 70s. and 80s. and we started going international and people from other countries were
12:25 am
d -- we, just, what are they getting. >> rose: what were they getting? >>. >> i imagine that the children, i assume, were laughing at michael's antics falling down, bumping into things. i guess our parents saw us in the characters, and what they consider their crazy kids and i guess to some degree in trying to examine the minute usualia of a very specific mune experience, of urban living at a certain age and at this period of time, somehow we tapped into something universal. somehow the little disturbances of daily life are more universal than we know. and because the show was dedicated entirely to the laugh and nothing else, there was no attempts at learning or growth or messages. it was just, we would do anything and everything and sacrifice anything to
12:26 am
achieve the laugh. i guess what we've built with the audience was a constant-- there was a confidence that if they turned it on, whether it was good, bad, stupid, broad, small, whatever it was going to be, they were going to laugh. >> rose: where is it larry david's vision and where is it jerry seinfeld's vision and where is it something else? >> it's hard to say. i think it was a unanimous collaboration as far as the idea of doing a show about the daily life of a come ed yen which was essentially very small thing. i mean there were no great events in jerry seinfeld's daily life. i think that the cynicism of the show, the darkness of the show, particularly in its first four or five years. >> rose: let me guess. >> is much more larry david than jerry. jerry has a much lighter heart and a much younger heart. and larry is, you know, is full of darkness and little twists an turns. but it was a beautiful collaboration. and i think there was no way-- .
12:27 am
>> rose: the dark is larry and the light is jerry. >> and a lot of the inspiration, larry lived across the hall from kenney kramer. so kramer is an experience in larry's life. george is certainly become a model of larry david in many respects. elaine was sort of modelled on carol leiffer who was an ex-girlfriend of jerries and a pal. it's all kind of there. but i think the stuff that people remember us for particularly early on came out of the notebook of larry david. i remember when we did the masturbation show. >> i said larry this is nut, this is nuts. he said this is the real thing. you know. >> rose: maybe not to you, this is my life. >> and everything that i thought oh, come on this is pushing credibility, he went it happened to me. i wrote this down because this has happened to mement so i think a lot of the more specific inspirations week-to-week in the beginning-- . >> rose: what is the
12:28 am
darkness of larry? >> well, larry, larry walkings around with a cloud, basically. >> rose: the world is going to rain on him. >> it will rain on him and that no one likes hem. and that really it's futile to get through the day because no good can come of it. and yet he's too filled with fear and phobia to actually kill himself, so he struggles on. >> rose: after every episode he would say this is it. >> i did the pilot, i can't do any more than this, this is it. more, more? we had our first season,. >> rose: he said four. >> four staggered him, so when 22 came up he was just oh, i can't do it. >> rose: so finally he left. >> finally he left, yeah. >> rose: did the show change when he left? >> uh-huh. >> rose: how so? >> i think in some way-- well, a lot of things happened when he left. again, that sort of darker element, that had been established now instead of being written by a staff of
12:29 am
guys who were in their 30s and 40s and had a little bit of that, the staff became a lot younger. the staff became, the writing staff was in their 20s. and they weren't particularly dark people. so instead of living it and expressing it they were kind of writing a semblance of it. so i think the reality of the experience was one step removed. the other thing is that jerry really felt his-- he spread his wins. and what jerry-- one of jerry's favorite television shows was the old a bots and costello show. and i think we started to go that way for the most part. i think we started to look less and less at the small minutae of things, our intrinsic story lines got broader in their scope, a little backier, a little more in a good sense juvenile. and another thing that larry tried to do often was around the third or fourth season he started playing with,
12:30 am
instead of one-story an a b story, he would have four distinct stories, one-story line for each character that would brilliantly dovetail at the end. the dovetailing seemed to stop for me. one or two would dovetail but not necessarily all four. all good story lines. but not necessarily with that same polish at the end that makes it go you had to have that in order to get that or that or that. but just as much fun. and even though there were many critics that said you know, it's not the same show, you know, the audience for the most part seemed to keep saying to certainly to me when i would speak to them, that they were laughing. >> rose: so when you heard the crit civil over the last year-- criticism over the last year, did you say they've got a point or did you say the audience, did you say the critics are out of touch with the audience? >> i think the critings had a point to a certain degree in that they noticed the change in the show and they were articulating the change in the showment when they
12:31 am
want on to say therefore it is a worse show, i don't know that i agreed. i can tell you there's not an episode we did whether i thought it was a great episode or not where i don't think we had some tremendous funny moments. and so when people say favorite episode or favorite season, i go you know i really don't know because in every one of them there was something really spectacular. >> rose: what can you tell me about the final episode? >> not much. it's-- it's 30 minutes. >> it is actually an hour. >> rose: an hour. >> i think it's brilliant in its idea and in its structure. and i can tell you that it brought back a lot of folks that had really been a part of our extended family over the years. >> rose: but it's brilliant. >> i thought it was wonderful. >> rose: your postmortem on it, having lived through without being able to tell us is that it is a home run. >> i think it is as big a home run as you can hit. which is to say no one is
12:32 am
going to be satisfied. larry is absolutely right in his paranoia about this, because he worked his guts out. and-- you know, there's such expectations about this thing that no one will feel satisfied. but i think what they did considering all the options that they had talked about, and one of the options, by the way, was not doing a finale episode, just doing an episode, considering the scrutiny that it's going through, and the expectations and what had to be achieved, i think it is just a brilliant job. >> rose: close to 80 million people are going to watch this, they think. >> okay. >> rose: what's it going to do, are you guys go to all say to even other it's been one hell of a ride. i'm off for the rest of my life. see you later. >> to each other. >> rose: yeah, to each other. >> i hope not. you know, we do have kind of different lives. and we are four very different people. and it's been-- an amazing
12:33 am
relationship between the four of us. i-- . >> rose: a defining event in one's life. >> yes, we have been through something amazing. jerry before we went out to tape the final step in front of the audience for the last show we always got together backstage behind the apartment set and have a little huddle and connect with each other. and you know, as reflected in our show it's not a terribly sentimental group and we never took the show very seriously to its credit. but we got into the little huddle an jerry started to mist up and cry and it's not that it's out of character but it's just unusual. and he said you know, the four of us are index orably tied to each other, no one from this day on will think of one of us without thinking of the other three. and he said i can't think of three people i would rather be linked to for the rest of my life. and he is right. i mean, we will be, you know, the muss can tears for the
12:34 am
till the end of our lives and it was an amazing relationship. and i can't think of a working relationship with that much attention that would, could go for that long that could be that much fun. we-- even under the worst of circumstances, when all the negotiations were happening and there was a lot of tension and a lot of pressure and it really got hot under the collar for a while, we still laughed. every day that we went to work. and i can't imagine not having those people in my life. >> rose: it may very well be that this is, sign fell is as good as it is ever going to get for you. >> uh-huh. >> rose: and you have to come to this idea that okay, i got enough out of it so if that's the price i paid i'm prepared to do that. >> uh-huh. >> rose: right? >> absolutely. i had a fascinating conversation with william shatner a couple of years ago who is an idol of mine, by the way. and we were talking about exactly that. about how after star trek the series ended, he was
12:35 am
very bitter that as a man in his early 30s it seemed like the thing that was going to have the greatest impact on people in his career was done. and he was bitter about it, and he tried to distance himself from it. and his career suffered for it. and his reputation suffered a little bit for it. until finally it wasn't until 20 years later that he went i have had an opportunity to create something that will live so far beyond me, how many actors have that, how many ackers have that moment even for a moment regardless of when it comes. and he really embraced it. and he said you know, you might want to think about embracing that. >> rose: embracing it rather than making it your enemy. >> i have no illusions that anything that i am involved with from this day on will have the impact or the mass acceptance or the profitability or whatever of the upside of a seinfeld. what seinfeld has given me is the ability to now do the things that move me, that i
12:36 am
care about. even if they are just silly funny things. seinfeld is not, it's not my sense of humor, necessarily. my sense of humor actually has more hulinging-- hugging and growing. i think humor is one of the great teachers. now seinfeld did teach but in a sort of abstract bizarre way. it now gives me the ability to go i done care if it's successful to that degree and i done care if they can't afford to pay me, that's not a factor for me. what i care about now is do i want my name attach odd to it and do i care about it. that was the greatest gift, that jerry could give me. is there any downside to this for you? >> any? not the ending of it. the doing of it. >> the doing of seinfeld. >> rose: yeah. did this have any downside. >> no. >> rose: none? >> no. other than the fact that i am not the world's most comfortable celebrity t would not be my choice to really not be able to be
12:37 am
anonymous. and the four of us are actually intensely private and i think that's been seen over the years. you don't see us out at the premiers and parties and at the spots. but i have found that people have been really wonderful and kind and respectful to me and my family. you know, i go to the market. i go to the movies. i live my life but i get all the press. i get all the wonderful treatment that comes with-- . >> rose: you are making good money. >> we made a wonderful living. my children's lifes are secure, my family's life. >> rose: how tough did it get? the story is conventional wisdom is that it was you who said at the beginning, we ought to be getting more and made the argument for a million dollars an episode which i guess, if you believe the press, ended up at $600,000 an episode give or take what it might be, whatever the truth is, it's somewhere in between. did you begin that, was that
12:38 am
your idea? >> i didn't-- i didn't begin the million dollar idea. the million dollar figure would actually first came out of julia's mouth. but it was not-- it was not a-- . >> rose: why not a million, right. >> well, it was not a wild, i think we should get a million dollars. there had been actual research done. which knew that for the network that loan-- alone, every episode of seinfeld generated $14 million, of profit, of sheer profit. for the network alone let alone castle rock and the syndication participants. we had argued that after five years of being in seinfeld, there was no upside in the long run for the three of us to continue doing the show. it had made us celebrities, it had made us some money. but if we were going to be actors with careers of extended wear we needed to play different roles, continuing to put out the image of george, elaine and kramer was actually detrimental to our long run careers. so why was there any incentive for us to be in
12:39 am
this for the long run unless those shows were extremely profitable to us. so we argued that we needed to be cut in on syndication. we needed syndication points. and we were told in so small terms to go take a hike. when we got into the bargaining chair and nbc so desperately wanted to have another season or another two seasons, we said again, syndication? our salaries are fine. but you're making such massive profits in syndication, profits of 3 to 4 million dollars per show, and in, you know, to infinite, and you don't want to give us any of that? okay. in order for us to feel good about doing this show, i want to leave the most successful half hour in the history of television knowing that i never have to work again. that is what i require. or you can't have my services. so knowing what all the revenues were, what we would have made had they given us the syndication, what
12:40 am
everybody was making up front, we said we had tried to figure out what percentage of the success formula of the show were the three of us. and we came up with jerry, larry, the writers, us, and everything else. the wonderful guest players, you know, all the other stuff. well, as one fifth of that formula, we said here's the number. a million an episode. and. >> rose: when you us erred that number, what did they say. >> they did what they should have done which is laughed at us. i d -- and i also knew that it was detrimental to television if they made the deal with us. and if has proven to be detrimental. it is outrage us up-front money, outrage us. it is bad for television. 13 million dollars an episode for er? a million dollars each to paul riser and helen hunt for a show that is number 25, 30 in the ratings. these are bad prices. >> you ask for that kind of
12:41 am
money when you are producing the kind of profit revenue that we are producing. but we couldn't ask for it on that side, they wouldn't give it to us. so we had to take it out up front. and i personally feel that we damaged the economics of television. and that nbc was foolish to give us what they gave us. but there was no way we were going to come back for anything less than the 6, the 6 was my bottom line so i guess i'm guilty of that. i knew that at 600,000 an episode, we would gross a certain amount, i would net a certain amount and that would pay for the rest of my life. but i thought they were foolish to maked deal. i thought they were foolish in the way they handled us. i thought that it ruined relationships. >> rose: it did. >> i think so. >> rose: between who? >> i felt that we were part of a real family with nbc. and i never had any problem if they didn't want to make a deal with us. i thought that was a perfectly legit mass.
12:42 am
>> rose: you just said they shouldn't have done it. >> right, but we began in december and they didn't talk to us, talk to us, really, until three weeks before it had to be a deadline. so we went through the rest of our season with our crew, with our writers, with everyone going are we coming back? because our lives depend on this. and the three of us going-- we're serious and they're not dealing with us. we were the bad guys. these people couldn't make decisions about their lives or know what their lives were going to be because the three of us were playing a game of chicken with nbc because nbc wouldn't talk to us. they thought if they didn't talk to us until may 1st, that we would crumble. that we would get scared. that per's actors and we know we may never work again. and if they offered us 250 we would take it because we're going to crumble. and that's not the way you deal with people that are in your family and have been working with you for nine years. >> rose: where was jerry in all of this? >> between a rock and a hard place.
12:43 am
as the producer of the show t is his mandate to bring the show in as inexpensively as he possibly can. that is his job, to maximize profits as the producer of that show, by keeping the costs as low as he can. on the other side of the coin, he will be the first one to say they deserve a million and then some. he's our pal, our collaborator, he's one of the ensemble and he believed in us and he believed in our request, i really think. because he was between a rock and a hard place he really stayed out of it. and i think we could have had a smoother ride had he not stayed out of it. but he would have had to choose one hat to wear. and i think that's a very, very difficult decision to make. so i don't blame him for staying out of it. and ultimately he did jump in at the end and say finish this, to the network am and that's the day we closed the deal. >> rose: when he said finish this. >> he said you guys better
12:44 am
stop the shenanigans and give them what they want today or i'm going to pull. and so that was the final incentive to at least get it done. >> i can't wear this puffy shirt on tv. i mean look at it, it looks ridiculous. >> well, you got to wear it now! all those stores are stocking it based on the condition that you're going to wear this on the tv show. the factory in new jersey is already making them. >> they're making these? (laughter) >> yes, yes. this pirate trend that she's come up with, jerry, this is going to be the new look for the '90s, you're going to be the first pirate. >> but i done want to be the pirate. >> rose: the interest came famous ent ran of you coming. >> i can't tell you exactly what the episode was but i know that i came in to catch up with the scene, something was happening very quickly in the scene and i come bolting in. and it got a laugh as well as it felt right. it was just-- and of course it took a few shows to get to this point.
12:45 am
but i felt that that represented kramer. that was the he sense of the character. because i felt that is how the character steps into life. he just-- and he comes in to things. also the pace of the show, it's moving very fast, the matter between jerry and george. so i like to get in quick and get right to to the scene. so that's another way of looking at it. >> rose: it really is a combination, the success of this sitcom. >> uh-huh. >> rose: first jerry, but then the perfect combination of ensemble actors and good writing. >> absolutely. it was my third television show, i know about that one. it's a chemistry but it's difficult to still tell you why it works. it's like trying to say why we're really, really, really here on this planet. and it's a mystery.
12:46 am
no one, no one thought that the show would become as successful. i mean it tested badly. it was picked up only for four shows in the first year. the second show, just give them 13, not a full load. i don't know about that seinfeld show, okay, what's next on the schedule. we'll give them 13. and then it started to catch on. we did-- we always had a decent following. and the second year we still had-- we had a share of the audience that stayed consistent. so nbc started to take note of that. >> rose: this is the typical interaction between jerry and kramer that doesn't need to be set up. >> you get the tickets? >> who needs two. >> oh, mamacita! special sneak preview of death below. >> when someone tries to below you up, not because of who you are but because of
12:47 am
different reasons all together. >> yeah. >> come on up. >> hey, jerry, do you think you can get an extra particular for my friend brody. >> you know what i had to go through to get these. >> i know but he say big fan of the genre. which consider it a personal favor to me. (laughter) yeah, i guess i do owe you. >> do i need to say more? i mean if you look at that and don't see,. >> what a friendship they have that i can come in grab some ice cream and take the whole carton with me as i go out the door. >> rose: take more than your share on one tablespoon, but it is as it all right there. there is the energy, there is the sort of jerry's take on kramer, there's kramer's -- >> right. >> you see the characters they were interesting. there was-- all of it. >> uh-huh. >> and you just got to do that scene after scene after scene. >> you have to deliver the same way, doesn't it. >> well, yeah. i can be in a real funky
12:48 am
mood too. he's on his way, he's going to have a good time, he's got a date too. that episode. >> rose: jerry seinfeld's biggest talent is what? >> recognizing true genius in others. >> he is a heck of i a writer because he write a lot of these shows. >> rose: does he really. >> with the writers, hes' right in there. he knows these characters very, very well. they were conceived by he and larry david. i say his biggest talent is he knows, he knows was's funny. and i've never been held down by jerry seinfeld. and i'll go way over. >> no kidding. >> and i'll look at them and go you want to put that in. he goes, yeah. >> do you think your sponge worthy. >> yes, i think i'm sponge worthy. i think i'm very sponge worthy.
12:49 am
>> run down your case for me again? >> well, we've gone out several times. we obviously have a good rapport. i own a very profitable electronics distributing firm. i eat well. i exercise. blood tests, i mack you lat. and if i can speak frankly, i'm actually quite good at it. >> are you going to do something about my side burns. >> yeah, i told you. >> rose: it seems like only yesterday that seinfeld left the air, doesn't it, or not. >> not to me, no, i mean-- . >> rose: it seems like forever. >> we did it a long time and i guess we finished that thing about three years ago, three and a half years ago. so its daerb -- but it sure was a heck of a lot of fun to do. there's no doubt about that. >> rose: sure made a difference in your life. >> a huge difference in my life. a huge difference in my lifement a very happy difference. i mean because it was so satisfying, creatively. >> rose: what made it that? that satisfying, was that the fact that you-- let me offer a possibility. so you can choose one, abc. >> one, brilliantly written.
12:50 am
>> yes, correct. >> b, a wonderful ensemble group of actors. >> uh-huh. >> three, it just had the x-factor, something makes the magical show and that had it. abc. >> i guess all three, but i would-- i'm not sure-- i mean i think it was extraordinary that we all were lucky enough to come together but once we came together it was sort of there. i done think there was-- i don't think there was magic beyond that. i mean it was just a great group of people at the right place at the right time. and we had a lot of fun. we enjoyed the process and i think that translated. >> rose: do you define yourself as a comedian? or an actor. >> an actor. an actor. i've never done stand-up or anything like that. but-- . >> rose: the thought of doing stand-up just send chills through you. >> yes, it does, yeah, it's a very different way of performing, very different. >> rose: and yet probably jerry today, today even,
12:51 am
would define himself as a stand-up comedian more than he would as an actor or sitcom or creator or anything like that. >> i'm sure of that, yeah. >> rose: that's what he loved most. >> yeah, and he always said on the set he wasn't an actor. we would always tease him about-- . >> rose: about what. >> tips on how to act. walk over there, be funny. >> rose: you would tell him, we'll help you through this. >> yeah, sure, yeah, he is the first one to admit it. >> rose: what is his genius, do you think? >> i think stand-up comedy am actually, i think that he enjoys what he does. and that comes through. >> rose: absolutely. >> uh-huh. >> rose: you may have heard me say that in a conversation. will smith talked to me about that. the idea that you if are having a wonderful time, it translatesness that is what is so great about doing seinfeld, actually. is that we were having so much fun and then other
12:52 am
people were dic digging it, wow this is so cool. >> rose: what can be better. was "saturday night live" like that? >> no. >> rose: it was awful. >> in a word, no, no, it wasn't. >> rose: why not? >> it was a big break for me, yeah, for sure. and it was definitely a great training ground for me, there's no doubt. and in the the fact that it was extremely difficult to do. i was very young. and i was unbelievably naive. >> rose: now you're old and not naive. >> new that i'm an old hag. but i didn't know how the business worked. and i didn't know how that show worked. and there's a lot of politics about getting your material on the air. you know, i came from doing sort of ensemble work and improvisational work, team and stuff like that,. >> rose: plus you were a graduate of northwestern. >> exactly. >> rose: or attended. >> i attended. i actually left northwestern to do snl. >> rose: yes, i know. >> but at any rate that was
12:53 am
hard. and it was hard to be a woman there. there was an alliance. >> rose: hard to be a woman there. what does that mean. >> it means they weren't writing materials for women. writers more more inclined to write for the men. >> rose: why is that. >> i just figured the guys were funnier. >> rose: today they have lots of female characters. >> they do today but this was not today, yeah. >> rose: this was when,. >> this was 1983 to '86. >> rose: was that a good year. >> 1983? no. >> rose: '84. >> noz. >> rose: '85. >> there were thins on the show that were good. >> rose: but you don't have great memories about -- >> huh-uh, not really, no, i don't. is that terrible to say, i don't really. it was fine. i'm not kidding. i really did learn a lot about how the business worked. but it wasn't creatively satisfying. but i will fell you one thing, i came out of that show and i said to myself, i'm not going to do anything again unless it's fun. >> rose: fun. >> fun. >> rose: so when you got to seinfeld you say, jesus.
12:54 am
>> this is fun. and what also was good, i knew larry david. larry david was a writer on snl. and that's how come he sent me these seinfeld scripts because he knew me. and so that's something good that came out of snl too. >> rose: so he gets the credit for elaine, doesn't he. >> yeah, sure, yeah. he wrote it. >> rose: i wrote it and not only that, he thought you would be perfect? >> yeah, yeah. >> rose: i mean you walked in and they just said bingo, it was not a whole lot of maybe, maybe, maybe. >> no. >> rose: it was walk in, bingo. we've found our elaine. >> yeah. that was nice, it was great. and when we were doing sign-- when i read those scripts of larries and i thought are we going to be able to get away with this because that show was not written like most television shows. >> how so. >> it was the conversations were not particularly meaningful. they were small conversations that were funny. >> rose: funny right. >> and that appealed to me tremendously. >> rose: for more about this
12:56 am
285 Views
IN COLLECTIONS
WHYY (PBS) Television Archive Television Archive News Search ServiceUploaded by TV Archive on