passages which was named as one of the most ten influential books of our time and remained on the bench for three years. a conversation with gale right now. snoet snoet #

♪ >> gale sheehy became one of the primary practitioners of -- when a host of stellar writers redefined nonfiction writing in america. she also broke barriers for women at a time when the real "mad men" meaning white american men rule the call for the political landscape in this country. she's written about politics and wlikt zones and she's always written honestly about her own

life experiences. gail sheehy, an honor to have you on the program. pleasure to bump into. >> what adairing man. >> we ran into each other at bookexpo. i said come on the show. here you are. >> my publisher said, okay, we'll second you to l.a. >> thank you for my ticket. >> i'm glad you got to l.a. i wonder if i might ask you to read one paragraph for me. >> i'm happy. >> you need your glasses? >> i think i can do it. i just had cataract surgery so i'm good. as i now reflect on what daring means in my life, i realize it's how i survive. when i fear what i do is dare. fear immobilizes. daring is action. it changes the conditions. startles people into different

reactions. it's a crap shoot, but it can be the prowess to empowering one's self. >> how did you learn that? >> by trial and error. when i was immobilized by fear, i might have a panic attack. i've had a couple of panic attacks in my life, and i learn that if i walk through that, walk through the fear and came out the other side, i used to be a swimmer when i was a kid, so i would dive off the end of the diving board. i would have in a. i would dive off the end of the diving board. i'm not going to be worried if i dive into a jellyfish or the water was going to be too cold or if the boys are going to beat me. i just do it. it's a good chance i'll make it if i do it, but if i don't do, it i won't make it, and i'll just be immobilized by fear. >> where your journalism has been concerned, what have you been most afraid of? what's caused you the greatest fear and consternation as a writer all these years? >> i guess being misunderstood, being misinterpreted. i just had a recent experience

with that, tavis. i wrote a peek about gary hart in 1984 when he was running for president for the first time and again in 1988, and i -- it was what i called a character portrait, and i was puttingo(c$ the idea -- it was one of my sort of break-throughs in journalism to say issues are not -- issues are today. character is what is today and tomorrow. the most important thing we can find out about a political candidate is his or her character. what is the repetitive approach to danger, to passages, to -- so when i followed gary hart i found out he had been brought up in a really incredibly repressive christian fundamentalist sect called the nazarine church. he couldn't dance, couldn't drink, couldn't smoke, couldn't drive. until he gets out and he joins j.f.k.'s campaign, and he sees,

oh, my gosh, the girls here, you know, these men have although power and they use it to have girls. he went over the wall. he became a libertine after being somebody who was schooled in believing that you had to be totally chaste not to be a sinner. eventually had he to get caught because that was his earliest training, and he kept putting himself in situations where he would be caught, and so when i wrote about him in 1988 called the road to biminy, i traced this whole character formation and how he said put a tail on me, follow me, find out, and, of course, the miami herald got a tip and cornered him with donna rice. had he become president, that recklessness and then the need to get caught for the recklessness would have continued, and it would have been a really disastrous

presidency, but now along comes a very fine "new york times" writer matt bae who rehashes the gary hart story and says character reporting has led us into gotcha reporting. no. gary hart's problem was not adultery. his problem was character. he couldn't get out of that pathology that he had been raised with, and we needed to know that. right after he was caught and found out, his presidential campaign torpedoed he was still lying and blaming the press at a big convention. he was standing there holier than thousand talking about let's head out press ruined his campaign. he is totally blameless. he walks out the back door and

gets into a car with a "new york times" top executive who told me this story, and they were going on a trip in new york together for two weeks. he said have you lined up the girls yesterday, sydney? sydney said, you know, hart, i would like you to have two operations. one would be to cut out your tongue. guess what the other one would be. >> one can debate whether gail sheehy is right about character reporting or whether matt bae is right about character reporting. regardless of who you think is right in that debate, what do you think the way now that the media covers the character of individuals.

they're not going back to talk to 40 members of the person's circle. they're not finding out the repetitiveness of their actions. that's not what character reporting is. i was just in the hall after tavis smiley, and somebody told me blah blah blah is doing so and so, and put it right on twitter rout any real reporting. that's the problem. talk about how you made a mark in journalism and reporting. >> it would have been who, what, when, where, where, and that happened because of wire services, and they were cut off from the bottom, and had he had to cut long stories. they told you everything from the beginning. why would you read the rest of the story? so what tom wolfe started and

clay felker published in his new york making sfwleen, which was the first city magazine in the country, was using the techniques of fiction and describing them to characters and scenes in journalism. that is using dialogue, scene setting, characterization, saturating yourself in what you are describing so you could almost, you know, breathe it from the inside out. now there are new outlets that will publish a long story. there's no lock history. there's no context in many stories. it's all what happened yesterday? i beat you. i got it up first on twitter. >> those short stories, these long in-depth profiles which are rare now unless you read in the new yorker or something like that.

>> right brsh. >> what does that say about the american reader, the american consumer that we want our stories in 140 characters? >> shorter and shorter and shorter attention spans. that's what it is. >> yeah. >> and entertainment. we are an entertainment enthralled culture. we have so many forums. we're the best at producing it. people want a little bit here and there. i started working and learning social media for this book tour, and working with 25-year-olds. i would write something that was two paragraphs. too long. i would say, well -- they said just put up a picture. well, wait a second. why can't you read two paragraphs in the same time you can look at a picture? no. you can't do three things at once. if you are reading. you can if you are just looking. >> welcome to my world. in so many ways you have been a trailblazer for women in this field. how is that label, that accolade fit you? how does that garment feel?

>> it makes me think get up and get out there and do this story. it's -- i'm just always looking for the next way that i can help to make a difference, and now that i'm in my 70s, you know, time is shorter. i know i'm never going to probably see the tajmahal or climb mount everest, but i can still, you know, maybe influence people's way of thinking by a story that i do, by something i learn about the world. it's cultural reporting. that is what i learned from my mentor, margaret meade, and she told me what you need to do whenever there is -- you hear about, you know, an explosion, a revolution an assassination, you know, drop everything, get on a bus or a plane, get there, look down into the abyss and you'll see the culture turned inside out at a raw state, and then you

can really have something to write about. tell me about covering that particular context. >> i convinced my editor. he said why would you let me go there? i said why is the british army at the throats of the northern irish? women are the one who the ones that were fighting the battle then because most of the men were imprisoned without charge. the women who were banging to warn against the raids and even shooting of british soldiers.

i get over there, and i'm going -- i wasn't invited to bloody sunday. they didn't send out invitations, but that's what it turned out to be, but it started as just a peaceful civil rights march. beautiful sunday afternoon. we meet the british soldiers at the barricades. they throw their tear gas. we lob it back. we sent those dented by rubber bullets back. now we drop back to the nice square, and the box and neighbors are greeting neighbors. i climb up an outdoor stair kashgs and i'm standing next to a young boy, and i'm saying to him how can they -- how can the british paratroopers fire their gas canisters is far? he said see them jabbing their rifle boots gents the ground. then a bullet tears into his face, and he falls at my feet, and i'm thinking how can i put him back together? i was a kid. i was just 32. i thought everything could be mended, but right away

crossfire, the sharpshooters are answering fire. paratroopers are jackknifing out and shooting into the crowd unarmed people. massacring 13 people. i had never seen anything like that before. shortly after i called my editor and i said, lay, i'm in northern ireland. he said how is the story coming. i said 13 people were murdered. he said, cbs is reporting on it right now. i said no, it's called bloody sunday. he said, look, honey, just stay out of trouble. just stay with the women.

he had no idea. >> no idea. >> you have reflections on this. put it in your own words, but what are your reflections now on the humanity of man given the conflict reporting and the story you just tell? what do you make of we humans? >> you know, the answer is going up. now that we have isis, would we have ever imaged that people could be so inhumane that they would run around slitting people's throats and taking their heads like john the baptist? it's biblical. why didn't we get to isis? what happened to the cia in syria? why didn't we have better information about this thing that was building? then why weren't reporters there? because of the threat. that's what reporting has

become. do you trust your government more or less after doing what you have done? >> like most americans i still have a great hope for government. i think it does many wonderful things that are not replaceable by, you know, being, you know, just saying government is a problem. i don't believe that. i'm a liberal. i think there's so much the private sector can do and does do. i was learning something last night from going to a dinner party at roger cowan, the famous director, and we were told about -- we hear everything about the boarder and the children at the border being in

horrible, horribling conditions in detention centers. well, there's a wonderful one just outside of los angeles in oxnard where kids who have some relative somewhere in california are being taken, and they're treated quite well, and 80% of them have been placed with some family member in the los angeles area. so, you know, the humanity of man and woman shows although time but very often in ways that aren't supported. >> you mention man and woman, which leads me to a particular woman i would like to ask you about. you've had a chance to profile anybody who is everybody -- everybody who is anybody over the course of your career, but i want to ask specifically about hillary clinton because you obviously profiled her over the years, and if certain people have their ways, she will be uncontested in the runup to the democratic primary if some

people have their way. i have my thoughts about whether or not she ought to be contested or not, but tell me what you have come to appreciate or know. i don't want to call into question too much, but tell me about hillary from your perspective since you profiled her. >> i think she has grown enormously. one of the things i found most amazing about hillary was that when bill clinton was on the edge of being impeached -- she has set up all the ducks in a row so democrats will make sure that didn't happen. at the same time she was in another part -- in the white house sitting with her mentor planning her senate run. she was 53 years old. she said i'm finally feeling independent and i will speak with my own voice and have my own platform. it took her that long. i think she really is -- she's quite fearless now. but she does have this companion, bill clinton, who is a pretty savvy political world

figure, and so what we're going to get, i think, is another two for one presidency. it's just reversed. would he step on her? no. what does he say now? he says i would be happy as a clam in the white house, and i will do anything that the president asks me to do. now, think about him as an ambassador around the world. does he know everybody? you know? if he tried to step on her, if -- i'm sure that if he had a different opinion about what should be done with this country or that leader and hillary differed, hillary would have no problem saying it's going to be my way. >> right. the question six years ago was whether or not the country was ready for a black or a woman president. >> right. >> we answered the black part. now the question is with whether or not we're ready for a woman president. no one knows. it's not a foregone conclusion that hillary is going to run or that she'll win, but are we ready for that if that were to happen? >> i sure as hell hope so.

we're a lot ready wrer than we were in 2008, and i think hillary will be a different kind of a candidate. somewhat different. she knows what the mistakes were that she made in 2008. she let mark penn run her campaign. she had to be a man, a commander in chief. what was the most successful thing she did after the terrible loss in iowa? she goes to new hampshire. a woman asks her a question. she tears up, and the woman says how can you keep going when they say all these terrible things about you? then she gave this wonderful speech about how, you know, it's because i really believe in what i'm doing and where i can take this country, and that's the person she has to show us. she made a wonderful speech after she lost in 2008, and there were lots of supporters there weeping bitterly, angry, and she said we don't have time for that. life is too short.

we have to go for the future. you know, what could still be. i think that is where she is now. what can still be? she doesn't have to apologize for anything now. you know, she's had her redemption. she got that by being a good senator. she's going to be a grandmother. you know, she and bill clinton have a wonderful relationship now where they live parallel lives, but they will always support each other totally. i think she's a much more appealing character that way. >> we're going from one powerful woman to another. katherine graham, the former publisher of the washington post, which is no longer part of the grand family anymore. >> that's right. >> you did a wonderful story in the book about katherine graham and henry kissinger who turned out to be the best of friends, although they were polar opposites politically. power loves power. >> i was being the hostess for the first time. i was terrified. i thought how am i going to have these two people in the living

room? they are totally buddy buddy, and they were teasing each other. katherine graham was trying to find out just how tough nixon is going to be on her for having published the pentagon papers, and kissinger is sort of baiting her saying he is going to be miserable and then say don't worry about it. he found out -- i found out they did to the movies together. they went out to dinner together. you know, power loves power because -- they were talking on the same level even though they were miles apart politically. >> speaking of power, you talk about rupert murdock and the fact that -- i think the phrase is the gladiators don't have time for friends. is that what you said about him? >> well, he has to win. he has to win. he has to overpower. my husband, clay, was very attracted how he used power. he was so good at it. they became what seemed like friends, but obviously for murdock clay was just a ticket to get new york magazine, which gave him -- planted his flag in the united states and gave him some panache, and he went on to do other things.

you can get really seduced by power. >> speaking of clay, what did you learn about care giving? >> oh, more than i wanted to know. you have to preserve your own identity as a care giver, because if you accept the identity as care giver as what you are in the world, you are going to lose that when you lose your loved one. then you have twice lost. then, you know, it's very difficult to come back at that point. i had a wonderful -- a doctor that said to me you are a different person than when i started with you a we're ago. you have to go out and do what -- be who you are. you have to be a writer. he was the one who sent me out on hillary clinton's 2008 presidential campaign while my husband was only months away

from dying. >> last question. what a balanced approach you have taken to how you want to live out what you want to accomplish in the rest of your life now that you are in your 70s. what is that? what do you want to do for the rest of your days, which i hope will be many, many more to come? >> well, i want to be with my grandchildren. that's number one. and i want to encourage millenials to be daring. that's what i'm doing. i have a daring project. it's a website, and i'm inviting people to, all ages, women to write in about daring moments in their life. daring steps they took when they were early in their career that allowed them to jump over a lot of other hurdles. you know, what kind of daring does it take to cross the gender barrier? it's easier today, but it's not all that easy to cross a color barrier. easier today but not all that easy. ease wrer to cross ann age barrier. you have to be daring to cross

an age barrier because you have written off after 70 unless you just keep getting out there and saying i'm still here. you have had such a wonderful life. a life well lived, and thankfully ongoing. good to have you on this program. >> i'm thrilled to be here. >> thanks for watching, and as always, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. >> hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me for a conversation with barry gordy about the dvd re--release of the motown 25. next time. see you then.

and by couldn't bugss of your pbs station by viewers like you. thank you. ♪

>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin this evening with mathio renzi, the prime minister of italy. >> come back to be dreamers, in the last period, we lost a dream and we make nightmares. we lost the possibility, the ability to show ourselve as real men and women, able to have big projects. the last period, italy is-- was sad, was lack of-- . >> rose: and we conclude with laurent fabius, the foreign minister of france. >> the problem with syria is it must not be used by bashar assad in order to gain