good evening from los angeles. i'm tavis smiley. tonight a conversation with the legendary founder of motown records, the chairman berry gordy on the dvd release of one of the great television specials of all time. "motown 25, yesterday, today forever." he'll be yoined by emmy winning television producer suzanne de passe who was at the label almost from the beginning and became president of motown. lady sings the blues and lonesome dove. glad you've joined us. a conversation with berry gordon and suzanne de passe in a moment. ♪

and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. the impact of motown on this country's cultural heritage cannot be overstated. a new dvd release celebrates one of the musical specials motown 25, yesterday, today and forever which highlights amazing performers. joining me the founder berry gordy and suzanne de passe who

took it into new ground winning along the ways, emmys and pea dd beaus and an oscar nomination. a look at a clip from "motown 25." ♪ i wish those days could come back once more ♪ ♪ if there's a smile on my face ♪ ♪ it's only there trying to fool in public ♪ ♪ but with a different meaning since you've been gone ♪ ♪ what's going on ♪ what's going on ♪ what's going on ♪ what's going on >> we saw stevie in that clip, and any of us who know stevie has any number of stevie stories. so i know there had to be a stevie story about this night. w stevie story, suzanne? >> well, we thought it would be a great idea, and in hindsight, such a terrible idea to have

stevie open the show. >> hold on. you thought stevie would be on time to open a show. >> we were working so hard that we forgot, you know, the principles of stevie wonderland. >> exactly. >> so the call came in to don in the booth. >> don mishner, our director. they said, look, stevie's not going to make it tonight. this is friday night, the only night we're taping. we won't make it tonight, but he'll be there first thing in the morning. and don said there is no tomorrow. it's tonight or nothing. and so we had to strike the set, rejigger the opening and, you know -- but it was such an amazing night. >> yeah. >> that even the mistakes were great. >> yeah. you know? >> there are always great behind the scenes stories, but it does speak to what motown has been great at these years, which is adaptability. you couldn't be black in this business at the time that you all started and not know how to

adapt. >> well, the great adapter over here who really created an environment for myself and everybody else at the company to just try so hard, reach so far. >> yeah. >> and, you know, try to keep up with him. >> yeah, mr. chairman, always an honor to have you on this set. so thanks for coming back again. >> thank you, always my pleasure. >> glad to have you here. how did you keep your emotions in check that night? when you were looking at all of this happening on stage, you have to be just emotionally overwhelmed. how did you keep it together? >> well, i had many emotions, you know. i had happy moekss, i had sad emotions. i had angry emotions, you know, because i didn't want to tgo to the show. in fact, i had felt so bad later because i had attacked suzanne so much for even doing the show in first place. because many of those artists had left me. and i was you know, at a time when the company was in trouble. you know, losing money.

to try to -- to try to -- you know, have the budget stay the same up here and the revenue drop down to here without michael jackson, without marvin gaye, you know, and without the jackson 5. so trying to build up with new people like lionel richie and taylor reed. >> and rick james. >> rick james, yes. they were phenomenal. it just wasn't enough to -- you know, because i felt like i could do anything. and i said, hey, so we'll just build these new people, start a whole new thing. but in the meantime, your expenses are out there. >> because you're human, you have a right to feel angst and anger. you helped these persons build their careers, you built the model, you gave them an opportunity. you have the right to have angst and anger, i get that.

on the other hand, artists have a right of self-determination to decide how they want to go and exercise their gift. how did you ever come to terms with that? most of us have rights in this process. how did you get yourself to go to the show even though you were upset with some people for not being on the label any more in. >> well, it was all because of the love, the love that we had at motown. and it was smokey who came to me and said, you loved detroit, but you had to go out leave, seek your fortune. and detroiters may or may not have been happy with that, but you had to go out and seek your fortune. and they had to do that, too. but i said, but they don't understand that i may not -- motown may not be here tomorrow morning or monday morning or whatever. and so he says, well, you know, you should come to the show because they're all coming back to honor you. they're all coming back. suzanne has put this thing

together. and you had said you're not coming, you know. and the fact that they came from wherever they were in europe, here, back all to celebrate you, and you are not coming. and so i think you're wrong. >> how did you come to terms with eventually selling the label? because if you have separation anxiety with artists, i can only imagine that gets heightened when you finally decide that the time is now to sell this empire that you have built. how did you come to peace with the selling of motown years later? then we'll come back to motown 25. >> well, because of the times. you know, we had to do great work and we had to feel the pulse of the people that we love and had loved us, but in the meantime, business is business, and when you can see the future -- and i realized that technology is moving faster than the speed of light.

and so i wanted to sell the company, but i wanted to do it in such a way that everybody would win especially me. and i felt that i sold it in parts, you know. i said i got to sell because technology's coming in, they're going to have all this and these are going to be changes here. so it turned out that i was like ten years ahead of that move, you know. and i decided to sell it off piece, i sold the record company first. >> not the publishing company. >> no, i held the publishing. because i said whoever buys the record company will promote, promote, promote, but the songs will get more and more valuable. so five years later i sold the publishing, you know, to -- and it was a business. it was a business deal. that's how i came to grips with it. and to help the artists. because i still loved the artists, you know, because love

is something that really goes deep. you know. and when i realized that they really did love me but they were doing the best they could at the time, whether the decision was right or wrong, they did it. >> i read a book one time "to be loved." suzanne, there have been so many great -- and i can just tell you, five or ten of them pop into my head immediately, these great iconic moments in television where music is concerned. and this is in that -- in is in that -- you're in that top ten tier category now, you think of the beatles on ed sullivan. you think of these moments. you're in that top tier now. what do you think? you're the person that pulled this together. what in your mind makes this special to endearing and enduring for the american public? >> i think most of all the coming back together of all of the artists regardless of what labels they were on at the time.

but the reunion of smokey and the miracles, the reunion of michael with his brothers, which was really hard to put together. the reunion of the supremes, even for that brief moment. and then seeing all these people who were in the tops together, smokey with linda ronstadt. the moments are so indelible in my mind and we were doing it and fastcinated with what was happening on stage at the same time. it was like one of those things that, for anybody that was in the pasadena civic that night, it was memorable and people came back to do interviews who were there that night including artists but some of the just friends to the company talking about it. and they remember it. it was 31 years ago, but they remember it because the energy kept feeding on itself and building and building. when michael came out and did

"billie jean" it took it to another place. but for me the finale is the key moment because seeing all the artists together greeting berry was what i think that song in the show was all about, that capturing that emotion for the song is what that particular part of the show was. >> the chairman was kind enough to come on this program. i know everybody was happy. he was kind enough to me to come on this program after michael passed away. so it's been five years now since we had that particular conversation. i know there's a story behind how that came to be. i'll let you tell the story. because as i'm told from my sources, that originally you all wanted -- you wanted the artists to focus just on their motown hits. but the rule was nobody's going to do their new stuff, if we call it favorite nations. we treat everybody the same. everybody will do their old stuff. yet this moment happened. first tell me how this michael

jackson moment happened. and secondly, you shouldn't ask two questions at once, but i will so i can shut up and listen. how did this moment happen. suzanne, you were always in the truck trying to listen to all this and enjoy it at the same time. did you realize in that moment what that moment was? tell me the first one. >> it's like a cocktail of events, you know, when michael at first didn't want to do the show, didn't want to get back with the brothers. and it was a process. and i finally reached out to berry, even though he was having mixed emotions, he gave me hell because i didn't know the company was in trouble. i'm going la-di-da, we'll celebrate, 25 years, isn't it wonderful? and he's going grr. you know? i finally had to reach out to him, you know, and say, i need help. i need help with michael getting him to the show. and sure enough, that was the magic conversation. but he said, okay, well, i want

to do "billie jean county," and know that was the big record at the time. i think every artist who was on the show and watching had been told you can't do your new stuff. they were okay with "billie jean." they were fans on that oops on our part. >> when did you get convinced that it could be in the show? was it rehearsal? how did you know we're going to make this exception? >> well, no, he says, i want to do "billie jean" for the house, but we got a letter in the middle of rehearsal that said you may not tape "billie jean." you're forbidden to tape it. michael only wants to do it for the people in the pasadena civic. we had just seen it in rehearsal. oh, my god, we can't let that happen. so i went to michael and said, look, let us tape it and if you don't like it, you can come to the editing room. and if you don't like it, we won't use it. but we have to tape it.

>> right. >> and he agreed. and he came to the editing room and he worked with us. he was very happy at the end of the day. but the i think crafting of the show was, you know, it was so much a moving target. this one's in, this one's out. they're coming, they're not coming. stevie missing rehearsal. i don't want to pick on stevie. but we had rooms going upstairs with debarge working with the choreograph choreographers. it took on a life of its own. we were trying to hold the tiger by its tail. >> you said earlier there were moments of sadness for you on that particular night. let me come to today 2014 and ask how you process sitting here having lost. there are fans and i'm still grieving over michael and i haven't got over marvin and that's been years. but some of the folks who are on

it are no longer here which makes this even more special to have in your collection because some of these folks aren't even alive any more. thankfully you're still here. some of the folks who are gone were younger than you. how do you process losing not just friends but family? there have been a number of them. rick james. too long a list to my mind. >> well, it's very painful, but i find that, you know, when, you know, you show your love to people when they're here and you celebrate them when they're here and let them know it and they know you know it and we know i know they know, you know. so it's that love that's there. the motown love that you have. and they left me, holland we sued each other for 30 years yet we're best friends today because love just overcomes all. it takes away a lot of things that happened. the pettiness, the this, the

that, so forth, just that's what it is. and when we needed something for the show and i just said, i want to tell the truth of why i had to come back and i had to come to the show because there was diana and all these people that had left but i knew they loved me. they knew i loved them. and they all came back. and at first i was thinking for one night. so what? what about tomorrow? you know? but i realized they came back because they loved me, and so i was so thrilled that this person here -- because i gave her hell. she said i've done this show, i've put it together. i said, you've what? >> he said no but i went and did it anyway. he didn't say no. >> i did say no. >> no, you didn't. >> i didn't want a show for. >> but you never said no. you said what would i want a show for? i took that to mean i'll

convince you. but the next time i spoke to imabout it we had sold it to nbc, the train had left the station. >> that's why i got suzanne de passe as a successful executive that she is, she did not hear you technically say no. and to her that meant i'm going to try to sell you on that. that's the way you have to be. he didn't say no. >> but he created that environment at motown. he created the space for you to push and not break. you know, to push hard but to know when to back off. and so to me, the up side in my opinion -- i didn't know for sure -- was going to be greater than the down side because at the end of the day it rejuvenated a lot of the catalog. it was a moment in time, but you know he caught me the stuff that made me go do that. so i figured how mad could he be? >> there was an atmosphere for

sure that you were safe. and there are no stupid ideas. bring up your ideas. you can't be penalized in this quality control meeting which we had. >> sure. >> we talked about before where they would come in and say whatever's on their mind. no politics, egos allowed. but suzanne, she was a hollywood, she loved hollywood. i would see her strutting with the stars. would you please get back to work. >> i was working. that's the whole purpose. >> that's how hollywood works. >> it was working. >> and this business is about relationships more than anything else, as we all know. you got the make those connections. speaking of relationships, how was the decision made -- i love the decision. but how was it made to have prior hosts? >> first of all, most people don't know that berry was his manager at one time. and he had been a part of not only traveling all-stars but lady sings the blues and he was

a motown person as far as we were concerned. probably the funniest person on the planet earth at the time. so we were thrilled when he agreed to do it. you know, i think it had gone back to he'd been gone from motown forever, yet the glue that holds that affection and love and adventure shared kind of energy in place, that is unbreakable. i mean, you just can't melt it. you can't chop it. you can't destroy it. it's kryptonite. you know? in a positive way. and so richard was the obvious choice as far as i think we were concerned. >> given what the turned out to be, how would you have felt if you had strayed home and watched it on television and not been in the house that night? >> oh, i would have been the most miserable man. >> i wanted suzanne to hear that. >> speak right into the mike.

>> i tried to kiss her many times, but she just won't let me get close to her. >> yeah, i got that. >> for real. >> hold that over your head maybe. >> for me one of the most incredible moments was when we won the emmy. >> right. >> and, you know, i can't tell you how much it meant to me to be able to say this one's for you, for him. >> yeah. >> that was -- >> i hear your emotion in that. >> yeah. >> why was that so important for you? >> well, first of all a part of it was ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, but the rest of it was that we did it, you know. kicking and screaming, holding on, challenging, whatever it was that the greater hollywood embraced what we had done. >> so before i ask you another question of the chairman here, what's on this that's different than we saw in the show? there's got to be some extra

stuff in here. >> there are many extra moments. >> tell me about it. >> we were in the editing room cutting things by fractions of a second because we only had two hours and we had, you know, basically four hours of show. so we put back a lot of the things that were missing, performances that never aired like jose feliciano. and we extended stevie's medley, we extended the jacksons' medley. we just put it back to a more holistic of what happened that night. >> and there are interviews on this, too. >> oh, interviews and featurettes where we made little mini documentaries about marvin, about smokey and what we're really trying to do is surround what was a two-hour show with letting the audience feel what the impact was 31 years ago. so there's reminiscence and also

more performance and these little featurettes. >> it's tough for the 800 show in a 300-pound bag. >> that's right. we were very challenged. and when it went on the air, we were so new to the television business when the agents called up, oh, my god, you won the week, we didn't know what that meant in terms of ratings, stuff like that. >> the motown brand endures, and you took it to broadway. are you pleased with the broadway show and the response to it? >> i saw it. i'm ecstatic over what happened in broadway because i had to go with a gut feeling of to tell the truth in an entertaining way and you won't lose. so far we haven't lost. it doesn't matter what people say. if it's true, they'll feel it. the ones that know it and lived it will feel it and the new people will do it. they always have messages thing

that i do, i try to have a mess message for people. >> your life is a message. >> he claims he's retired, and that is a tired story paus he just keeps going and going and going. he's got a brand new artist now that he's developing a movie for. and he keeps saying, but i'm retired. i said, no, no, no, you're just tired. >> i said the other day retired, which is true o the chairman here. yet you retired because you get re-tired every day. i'm tired today, i'll be re-tired tomorrow. that's how that works. motown 25 is out on dvd. and we've been waiting for this a long time. there's so much goodness and so much richness and artistic excellence in this dvd collection as you heard suzanne say earlier, interviews and extended footage you've not seen

before. i always love getting that stuff that's never been seen before. that's what it is all about. suzanne, congratulations years later. it was a great moment. i remember that night for as long as i will live. >> thank you. you know, kicking and screaming. >> kicking and screaming. >> that's right. >> and to the chairman -- >> what's so interesting in his play is book ended by motown 25. >> it is. >> for someone that didn't want to go and all that. >> i think she's still trying -- >> she's still trying -- >> she has the right. she has the right. >> you don't know how hard he kicked my butt. 31 years later just now healing. >> that's how you know this is love. only suzanne de passe can talk to the chairman that way because it's all about the love. mr. chairman, i love you. i'm always honored to have you on this program. thank you for -- there's not a language to describe or to say i think how so many of us feel about motown being the sound

track to our lives. we owe a great debt of gratitude that we'll never be able to repay. so just thank you. >> thank you for thanking me. because because of people like you and all the people around the world who felt what we were feeling and what that vision was. >> yeah. >> and it's just been amazing to me. i've been blessed, and i'm thankful and i have such gratitude. >> thank you. love you both. that's our show for tonight. thanks for watching and always, keep the faith.

see you then. and by contributions to your pbc station from viewers like you. thank you.

>> charlie: welcome to the program. beginning with the clinton global initiative in new york city and a conversation with former president bill clinton. >> people forget and politicians and the apparatus covering politics forget that elections are giant sovereignties and the election for president is the grandest job interview on the planet. >> charlie: also from the clinton global initiative we talk about climate with gina mccarthy, david crane, joseé mariía figueres olsen. >> i believe that we're at the questiobeginning of a new dawn e talk about climate change solutions and that we finally made the link between the economy and environment. >> charlie: we conclude with juan manuel santos, the president of colombia. >> i decided it was one of the risky decisions to talk and figh