good evening from los angeles. i'm tavis smiley. tonight, a conversation with author and krit irk, john lah. one of the play wrights that explores how his relationship formed his work. the author of "a streetcar named desire" to nak a play. writer and producer justin simien. sun dance and the san francisco film festival t. movie has the provocative title, "dear white people." glad you could join us for those conversations coming upright now.

♪ contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. ♪ en tennessee williams is one of the most brilliant play rights. "a streetcar names desire," "cat

on a tin roof." tennessee williams, mad pilgrimage of the flesh makes it clear it's written by john lahr, the only theater critic to win a tony award. lahr, good to have you on this program. i was asking you, when you came on the show, whether or not it was worth dedicating -- devoting 12 years of your life to this? >> yes, it really was. the job of a critic isn't just to look at the theater, but look after it. tennessee wrote over 70 plays along with lyric poetry and wonderful letters. this stuff hasn't been wrangled. he said, famously, that his plays were an interior landscape of himself at the time he wrote them. all these famous plays, the ones

you mentioned, were written at different times. if you chart using his letters and his diaries, if you chart where he was at any moment, you see him change as his heart opens and flowers and hardens. the plays reflect in an unconscious way, his multiple split personality and what he was struggling with. so, it becomes a kind of emotional autobiography. the plays reflect the man and the man reflects the play. that's what i was trying to catch. why it took so long to write is you are juggling the public man, a man on a first name basis with the world, tennessee. and a private life, a very wild private life. these very rich, complex emotional plays that help define the 20th century.

>> how did the two parts of each other aid and abet his artistry? >> you mean -- >> the tortured soul. >> it was always a struggle with himself between self-destruction. he was raised in a very -- he and his brother and sisser were witness to war between the parents and indigestible. his plays are always rethinking his family. his grandparents are his repertoire company. he's dealing with it in different ways in the plays, really trying to reconsider his life and also express, get out of himself and represent these mad scenes he went through as a child. >> a way of saying tennessee is

blanch? >> he said so himself. he's also partial to his family. he's also partially, very much brick, the negative, you know, that part of him wanted to create and made and live in the world and the part of him that really felt so guilty and so self-loathing. he wanted to destroy himself, which in the end, he did. you know, his play, you know, oscar wild famously said that the artistic life is a long, lonely suicide. in a way, williams' life bears that thesis out. >> contextualize for me his

work. over time, his work was less good. >> well, tennessee set out to be great. he knew he had it in him to write great plays and he did for a long time. when he was working out of the green world, it came, he said, easy to him, sort of easy. there came a point where he was blocked. i mean, to unblock himself, he started in the mid-50s to drink. he started to become -- that became his meaning. to the extent he started to report on his self-destruction as his theme. he became a warrior and an exhibitionist, so to speak, of his collapse. increasingly, at a certain point, he was devouring himself. that even is part of one last

summer where they get eaten alive. williams called that play an alagory. it was. he lost that connection. he wrote a play about it "milk tray doesn't fall here anymore." his mothers milk. he tried to reconnect with that world and a hatred of himself for having, in a sense, ruined, he ruined himself, to a certain degree with drug and drink. somebody called it the bio -- the pharmacology of the lost. but, you know, in the end, the well was dry. he sort of played chronicle. when you know this about him and

see it explore bigraphically, the plays are good. there are at least three or four of the later plays which aren't great. they don't have the shellac of his earlier plays. they are good. they are interesting. they are nothing to sniff at. i think they should be re-examined. there's more than the initial critics found. >> even the stuff that was less good was still written from a place of truth. >> oh, well said. absolutely. it's his personal truth. it's his personal life. >> right. >> he said from the very beginning in 1938 when he started writing, he wanted to paint a picture of his heart. not society, but it reflects society. just of his heart. he does that.

in glass he was both a narrator and character in his plays. >> if he steps out and, in fact does, john, write narratives that expose us to his heart and his soul and his journey, why then does his stuff, one, not only endure all these years later, but why the rest of us find ourselves able to relate to what he wrote? >> a good question. i'm going to answer it. think of a tooth ache. when you think of a tooth ache, you can't think. we don't have many words for pain. pain is beyond language. what williams makes us do because we are all in pain, we are able to look at our lives, feel pain and understand it in a way that we ordinarily can't do. so, his plays are always a journey into his interior and

ours. go to his plays and i think what distinguishes it among the great play writes is that he lives, he said famously, for love i make characters. he lives within the characters deeper than the other play wrights. they are nuanced. actors love to play in them because they are so rich in texture. they are deep, deep. >> i'm going to put you on the spot. three things about tennessee williams that the average person does not"szç know. >> they certainly don't know the degree to which the great director that directed most of it, how important he was in the shaping and structuring of all the main plays. >> okay. >> williams owed him a great debt. williams, i think the next thing, i would say, is that

williams, who made a myth of his sister rose, who was -- had one of the first labotomy's. his allegiance to her was retro specktive. at first, he didn't know what one was. he certainly was guilty of surviving in the family and -- but more than that, i think it's fair to say he was guilty because initially, he wasn't as loyal to rose as he acted out, both in plays. he built an alter to her, in his key west house. that enactment makes me feel that he wasn't all together honest about his feelings. the third surprising thing is that he continued the public

narrative is after 1961, he died in 1983. he never wrote anything first rate. it's not true. there were very good plays and some beautiful poetry that he wrote. you know, i suppose that would answer the question. >> the final analysis, how do you situate him among the great american play writes? >> he's the greatest. i don't like to rank them. certainly the greatest. unique talent. one whose narrative, whose story needed to be told and hasn't, up to now. after all, he has been dead since 1983 and 40 books written about him. his story and relationship to himself has never been brought together. >> the book is "tennessee

williams mad pilgrimage of the flesh" written by the great john lahr. great to have you on the program. congratulations. >> thank you. coming up, justin simien, the writer and director of "dear white people." stay with us. justin simien was a student here in southern california when he started a twitter account called dear white people. he tackled race with insight. black students navigating white campus environments. now that twitter account is a movie funded by crowd sourcing. it's hailed as a satire of obama aids. we have a scene of "dear white people." >> this is the only dining hall

you can get yourself chicken. dear white people, right? it's funny. it's funny stuff. it really is. how have we not staffed you yet? >> me? on prestige? the uninspired music magazine? >> it's more than a magazine. same for the network comedies. >> what gives you clubhouse kids the right to come to our dining hall? >> you don't live here. >> what are you doing? >> you can't eat here. >> let the man -- >> got this. who are you to throw me out? >> well, i think i'm head of this house. >> so, not unlike you, i went to predominantly white campus. obviously, i'm black. >> wait, what? >> i know, i know. i went to indiana university. i was sitting in the movie theater one day and the trailer for this came on. >> okay. >> i was transfixed in my seat

like, oh, my. who is justin simien? the first thought i had was, which i'll ask you whether or not white folk get this. clearly, it's a satire. we live in a world people don't get satire. the movie going to come out and they are going to be all over you about the message and the film. do you think people can and will get the point? >> i think they can and will. i mean the cool thing about the movie is we started in sun dance. not particularly black heavy audience. >> that's charitable and generous. >> that's where we began. i had the pleasure of seeing the film in atlanta. i screened it in new york with a half and half audience. i screened all over the place with different racial make ups. they show up and sell out in record time. they stay and want to talk about it and connection with the characters. i think part is because the

movie has politics on the mind. at the heart, it is a story about identity. it's a part of the human condition. we struggle with who we are versus how we are perceived. what is cool is to see people that don't look like the characters in the movie identify with their lives and struggles. they are able to digest some of the other stuff. >> we started on the internet, a twitter account and trailer. you know, i had my fair share of diving and learning about the different things people feel about the title and the things the film talks about. >> to your point about identity. are black people in search of or not appreciative of their identity? is it a problem we have? is it a problem white folk have respecting our identity or both? >> i think it's both. being a person of color, you are bombarded by and bobbing and

weaving around other people's impression of you. it's so limited. there's so few images of us out there. the images out there, even the ones that are positive, don't reflect the complexity of what we are. that is unique to people of color. i hate the word minority. >> it doesn't work in california. >> people who are not reflected in the mainstream of culture. we are constantly having to -- we are constantly walking around the world around their assumptions. that takes a toll in how we see ourselves. >> one of the most amazing words that came out, it came from a white actress. you know, as much as this is a movie about identity itself, it's about potential. identity is limiting. black folk harden in identities because we have to.

we have to be aware of the kind of black person we are. at a certain point, we have to shed that identity and be who we are supposed to be. >> i take your point. identity can be limiting. >> yeah. >> but, at the same time, it can be liberating. once you come into the fullness of what your identity is, it liberates you. >> that's why i love these stories. my film has four characters. we have characters at the beginning of that journey. lionel has no idea what his identity is and he finds it and finds a home in it. we have characters living in the same identity too long. it's time to grow and stretch and try on a new identity in life. you are right, it cuts both ways. i never wanted to make a movie that gives a hard and fast answer. >> how do you sum up the four characters, people you know or created? >> they are a combination of --

the first draft was way too many characters. i didn't know how to write this kind of movie when i started in 2006. a lot of them came out of my sub conscience. i paired it down to the ones i felt were interesting and opposed in the right ways and made for the best stories. lionel and sam were part of the movie. having this character with no identity and a character that has outgrown their identity. that was the anchor for me. the other two are combinations of characters that for budget and time have to be cut and condensed. >> i represent the top of the conversation, you said a bit about it. this started eight years ago. tell me how it got to being a film? >> i was having a conversation with a black union, with my other friend. >> all five of y'all? >> all three of us hanging out. we were having the kind of

conversation you would have in college. these are friends because we are black or do we like everyone here? is that why we are hanging out? we got into a conversation about how we toggle between black and white friends and why don't they mix more and how do we answer the phone when this person calls versus that person. this conversation went on for hours. why isn't there a movie about this. this is my black experience. this is the experience of my friends. in 2006, there was a draught in terms of black films. i wasn't identity fying with th blacks in the cinema. the things that happened before my time. i watched as a film student. i wish that was part of the conversation. that's how it began. i started a screen play called 2%. 2% black population on the college and kept working it through the years.

at a certain point, a radio show of dear white people. to me, that was a better title. the movie became dear white people to test the jokes out on the world. eventually, when the script got to a place where i wanted other people to read it, we made the trailer with just my friends and actors we found to put forth the vision of the film. when it went viral, that began the journey of full financing to get the film made. >> who came to your rescue? >> our producer. she was one of the first people to read it. she watched us unmask this following for a movie that hadn't been made yet. we were touring the studios to get it made. finally, one day she was like let's do this. this is obviously got a following. it could be a thing. let's go for it. she took a chance on it. >> what is your view?

>> we wouldn't have got it without social media. there's no traditional way to get this made. when i saw do the right thing, spike said there's no way a studio would ever make this movie, in this day and age, which is crazy. it's a masterpiece. there's no version of a process where a studio executive sees a movie like this, loves it and makes it. that doesn't happen anymore. without social media and proving we had an audience and going around the sort of -- not waiting to go through the gate, but around the gate. that was the only way to get the project made. >> i don't know. i don't know. >> i'm anxious to know. >> me, too. >> do the right thing. the school days cover these topics. what do you want to do? this is going to put you out there. what is the big game plan?

>> i want to make movies and tell stories about the human condition. i want to make films where we entertain you and delight you, but i want you to need to have a conversation in the lobby after every single movie i make. the role of art is to hold the mirror up to culture. we may not like what we see. that's the business i'm in. this is a business. you have to make money. i want to make movie that is matter, that people are talking about. >> the title is "dear white people." it could be subtitled, "dear black people." there's a message for both. >> you have to be true to yourself. it doesn't matter what your identity is or what it's supposed to be or what people think you are. tough be true to your authentic self. it's true for all people. seeing the movie through a black lens because i made it through a

black lens. at the core, it's a story about identity. >> companion comes with it. tell you about the companion text. >> this book is about me ripping up a lot of ideas in the movie. i'm going for it, you know? talk about why i think reality tv is a new black face and why kanye west did this and did that. itis sort of like it's me being ridiculous and ripping on the themes of the movie. it's beautifully illustrated by a guy. it's got lots of personality quizzes in it. it's a fun book. i'm proud of it. >> i can guarantee, when you see it, you will be talking. you may be stuck in your seat with 1,000 questions running through your head. i hope you see it with others because you will certainly have commentary. sun dance and it's finally a film after eight years of

working on it. justin simien is the writer, producer and all that stuff. it's called "dear white people." a guide to interracial hormny. this is the first time we have heard the name justin simien, but it won't be the last. congratulations. >> it's a pleasure. >> the pleasure is mine. thanks for watching. as always, keep safe. for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. >> i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for a conversation with actress cicely tyson. that's next time. see you then.

by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you.

>> rose: welcome to the program. tonight, the governor of new york andrew cuomo. >> one day i won't be governor of new york just like one day my father wasn't governor of new york and one day i wasn't secretary of housing and urban development. and that's the real life that i'm calibrated to. i've been given this great opportunity for a short period of time to do good things for the state, and i'm so appreciative of it and i work very hard at it. but, that's not reality. and one day, it will be over and that's okay. >> rose: andrew cuomo for the hour, next much