good evening from los angeles. i'm tavi smiley, tonight a conversation with tommy lee jones. he now co-stars with hilary swank in a movie called "the homesman." it is set against the harsh realities of the frontier. making it a frontrunner. we're glad for you to join us with a conversation with tommy lee jones coming up right now. ♪

♪ and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. ♪ movies about the frontier have served as a way to deal with some more aspects. the movie co-stars hilary swank and tells the story of a woman who enlists the help of a drifter as she escorts some women to safety. the movie opens tomorrow.

oh. >> are you an angel? >> you're not dead. >> help me. will you help me? for god's sake? >> suppose i do? what will you do for me? >> anything, anything, as god is my witness. >> if i cut you down, will you do what i tell you to. >> oh, yes i will, swear to god. >> swear to that almighty god that you've been talking about? >> vengeance is mine, sayeth the lord, bringing in the sheaves, and do unto others, and if you cut me down from this tree, i'll do anything you tell me to. glad to have you on our program. >> thank you. >> i want to start with a

continuation of the dialog we were having before we went on camera. i was saying based on the screen i was watching at my house, sometimes you have to go to the studio to see it. it was cool to be at home and pop it in your player and watch it at your house. the first thing tommy asked me was, what size is your screen? and i knew what he meant. so i pointed to this thing over my shoulder, this screen here is about the size of the screen i have at my house. and he said oh, my god, i'm about to pull my hair out. what was your problem with my screen being that size? >> i wasn't referring to your screen. i was referring to the fella who told me he had seen the movie on his ipad or a cell phone. >> yeah. >> you know, scale is important. >> right. >> if you're sitting close to that. i think you'll get a good representation of the color on that and the spatial relationships. that's okay. that doesn't make me as nervous as an ipad. >> okay.

so i take your point, though, because as a director, it's just fascinating for me how quickly you jumped on asking me that question about the size of the screen. because as a director that means something to you that we see this in the right way. >> well, that's what we do. we make movies, and the presentation of them is meaningful. [ laughter ] >> i'm getting my chops busted. i'm only three minutes into this conversation. >> no. >> so a moment ago you used a phrase color. and if my research is correct, there was a conversation at some point between you and somebody or inside your own head about whether or not to do this in color or black and white, is that correct? . >> people have asked me that question before. i don't know how that got reported or in the information stream. but we never gave that a moment's thought. >> it was always color? >> always. >> since we're on it, i'm just curious. might black and white have given

you a different feel? >> i would have sorely missed the color of northeastern new mexico. there's a lot of brilliant colors there, and i'd find, i find them all meaningful, and the life of the country was so important to the narrative. that we wanted to experience the weather and also the color and space. >> you shot this mostly where? >> northeastern new mexico. >> yeah. >> around north and maybe, and some maybe a little bit east of the town of las vegas, new mexico. >> mm-hm. >> and some north and a bit west of santa fe. >> i want to get inside the film in just a second. but let me start by asking for your send time directing a feature film. >> yeah. >> why this one? >> oh, a friend, michael f

fitzgerald showed me the book and asked me if i thought there might be a good movie in it. i read the book and said there was a good movie in here. i think we can pull a screenplay out of this book, and it will have some originality to it. and we have a pretty good chance of making a film that no one's ever seen. >> what did you think that you could bring to the telling of this story uniquely? as director? >> well, as a director, i like my work. [ laughter ] >> what can i bring uniquely? i don't know. i'm interested in these women. >> yeah. >> that are the subject matter. and their experience. i know the country rather well. we have property in new mexico. and i grew up right next door. so truly interested in the country and getting into it with

a truck load of cameras. >> let's jump right into it then. the story of these women. tell us what the story is about these women. >> okay. the story is about women, in particular three women, possibly four. who are essentially driven insane by hardship of living on the frontier, the western side of nebraska in the 19th century. people who were comprised what you might call the cutting edge of manifest destiny. >> mm-hm. nicely put. >> it was very difficult on women there. i mean, the victorian era, women. and lived this elusion that was

shared by all of society that women are delicate, treasured things that should be cared for and not really relied on to do anything important, like vote. >> mm-hm. >> but the reality they were living was different. these people had to work all day long. daylight till dark. there were no trees at that time in western nebraska. and that means there were no sawmills. that means there were no boards. and that meant that you had to build your house out of dirt or live in a hole in the ground called a dugout. and certainly, the floors are made of dirt. these women were living as a fact of life, with an infant mortality rate of about 75%. no penicillin. no quilting bees. no socials. no tea parties.

and pretty, life for them was pretty much constant objectification, trivialization, practical forced labor. >> that last point you made, i'm not going to say, not to say that the former part of your answer doesn't, but that latter part, tommy lee, makes me ask whether or not there is an enduring lesson here for the way our society exploits and objectifies women even today. all this is set back in the day. >> well, i don't, i seriously doubt there's anyone within, any female within your viewership that has not been objectified or trivialized at sol point because of their gender. that started somewhere. >> mm-hm. >> and it's, i think, important in our story telling that we look back. >> i think i, either i read somewhere or somebody told me,

and i chose to, for this reason and others, chose to refer to this not as a western but as a movie about the american frontier. dy read correctly that you don't really like this being described as a western so to speak? >> it doesn't bother me. it used to bother me, but i don't pay much attention anymore. i'm pretty well over that. when you use the word western, what have you described? it's a label. and people need labels. that will do as well as any other, but the only meaning i can see in it is that when you're talking about a movie that's got horses and big hats, and maybe a wagon, some dust. so there, that's a western. but some movies deserve further conversation. [ laughter ] >> again, nicely put. so let me ask a question that will sound stupid, and not the

first or last question i will ask that sounds stupid, but i think you will take my point. that is for those who see this movie, for those men watching this program right now. >> mm-hm. >> who have heard you describe this movie as a movie that is a movie about women on the frontier, the reason for us to go see it is what? we men? >> well, i mean, i'm interested in it because of my grandmother and my mother and wife and daughter all turn out to be women, you know? i like them. [ laughter ] >> i think the indication as a director and actor, and you know this better than i do, it is the case though, never mind the color or gender or sexual orientation. the think that moviegoers appreciate is being able to revel in or situate ourselves in the humgmanity of the character.

>> tell me about hilary swank. >> an impeccable actor. perfect for the role. when we were thinking about asking her to meet with us, i saw all of her movies that were available. and i can tell she's very hardworking. as an example, she knew practically nothing about horses or wagons or mules or plows. but worked at it all day long, every day, until she was able to present an inarguable picture of somebody who could ride and drive a team of mules and plow with the double shovel. plow? and she was just perfect. but the most important thing when you're casting, when you're casting a movie, i've cast a few.

what i look for first is desire. that's the first quality that you need. >> yeah. >> and she's got plenty, endless, boundless desire. >> hold the phone. when you say desire, unpack that for me, because the viewer might hear you say desire and assume what everybody in this town desires a lead role. everybody desires to work with tommy lee jones. when you say desire, you mean something deeper than that, obviously. >> i suppose. really, a desire to tell that story. >> mm-hm. >> to figure out a way to make that character real. >> you're casting, because i want to get inside, it's not the like the actor's studio. when you're looking at who you want to cast for those roles, not based just on talent, but die sire, how do you figure out whether that desire exists in the actor? >> you read their minds. [ laughter ]

>> that's about all you can say. everybody desires a really pretty fast car. but not everybody has a deep desire to perform well. >> yeah. >> maybe a deep desire to get away with it? >> yeah. >> but a deep desire to get it done is a quality that you train yourself to recognize. >> yeah. i want to come back to what it's like to work for tommy lee jones as your director. but first, hilary swank was here not too long ago, talking about another project she has out. the movie "the homesman" came out. >> i find it really interesting that tommy lee jones, he'll, a lot of people go, wow, what was that like? you know, we, people have a lot of stereotypes of him, like he's really intense and gruff and, you know, to me, it just shows how much heart he has and how

much we constantly like to stereotype, but it kind of busts open the stereotype of him. because he co-wrote it. he directed, and he stars, and it was a story important for him to tell. >> so you don't just like her. she obviously likes you. what's it like when tommy lee jones is your director? >> well, i don't really know. i try to be as good a director as i possibly can. i try to be prepared. and i hope everyone else is. it means just about everything. details. little things mean a lot. >> mm-hm. in this movie, because as hilary just pointed out, you write, direct, probably doing craft services too. >> sweep up.

>> you did everything. i'm curious, tommy, what is the particular and unique joy, i assume must be joy. >> mm-hm. >> that you get from acting, and what is it that you get from directing? >> they're two different jobs. >> right. >> and to have both of those jobs and be a writer as well as a producer is fun, having any three of those jobs makes the fourth one easier. >> mm-hm. >> and finally, ultimately, it's pretty good way to satisfy your greed for creative control. >> i take your point. why is that important to you? i know why it is to me, why is it important to you? >> well, i want to be a sfilm

maker. i want to make a movie. i've worked in the business for 45 years. and you want to keep growing as a film maker. i want to see my visual life grow and be more, increasingly effective. >> yeah. >> in this world. >> i take that and i appreciate that. can i dig a little bit deeper and ask, maybe too early in the process, but have you already started to process what your take aways were, do you know what your take aways were from starring and directing in this one? >> in this one? stay ready to shoot. >> mm-hm. >> especially if you're outside. if you're making, essentially, an exterior movie, which is what this one is. northeastern new mexico, don't run from the weather. >> mm-hm. >> be ready to get out in the

weather and shoot whatever it does, because that's really where a lot of the beauty is. so if it starts to snow, don't let them wrap up the cameras and run for the trucks. >> mm-hm. the flip side of beauty is harsh condition. how much of a character is the weather in the film, and how much difficulty did that character give you? >> well, it made us uncomfortable many times. but to answer your previous question, you don't run from the discomfort of what some people would call bad weather. bad weather's really beautiful. >> how do you keep, i'm just curious. how do you kind actors focused? and you've got a great cast. we'll come back to that in a second. how do you keep actors focused when the weather conditions are unavoidable.

to cold, t too cold, too hot, too dusty. >> it's not my job to keep them focused. you try to hire willing, able -- >> desirous. >> for whom focus is not a problem. it also helps if you hire your, you know, friends. have a lot of friends who are good actors, and many of them are in this movie. you don't really worry about keeping focused. we live in a society that's going to be focused no matter what. >> there are two things you just said and i want to ask. first i want to ask before i get to the rest of your friends. what's it like on directing tommy lee jones? did he give you a good performance? >> oh, yeah. i do everything i tell myself to do. [ laughter ] >> but again, having those two

jobs. >> sure. >> director and actor. really having those two jobs makes the other one easier. >> it makes it easier, but you're glossing over this like it's easy to do. that's a llot of responsibility man. >> neatness counts as they told us when we're taking tests. you develop methods to keep not only the company, but yourself organized. >> i want to come to these friends that you have in the cast, because this is an amazing cast if ever there was one. and before i get to the actual individuals in the cast and let you brag about the cast, it's a great cast, tommy lee. >> yeah. >> but there's an old adage that you don't want to work with your friends, because it tests relationships sometimes. but i heard you say it's cool to work with your friends. >> it is cool. i have a lot of friends who

happen to be superb actors, and i don't hold it against them. [ laughter ] >> all right. so brag about your cast. tell me about who's interesting besides you and hilary. >> james spader is in it. he does a beautiful job. barry corbin, an old friend, always a good actor. the amazing hailey ste hailey s. may meryl streep. >> i've heard about her. >> you don't have to worry about her focus, or about her staying focus in the heat in northern georgia in the summertime with all those victorian clothes, you

know, to weigh her down. she's going to be good no matter what. >> speaking of your good friends like meryl streep. >> and her daughter, gracie gummer who's also a pal, does a terrific job in this movie. >> i thought about this. here's how i saw it. i see the role that meryl does play. it is a smaller role compared to others in the movie, but i figured you guys must really be friends and/or she must really respect your work to come down and play such a small part and it really works. it says something about you, obviously. >> it was good to see her working with her daughter. i wouldn't think they don't get a chance to work together very often. >> strange question, i know you don't make movies, of course, i don't think you make movies in this case to make a point per

se, but is there a particular take away that you want the moviegoer to leave this film with? >> sure. a take away. i'd like them to leave the theater with the feeling that they saw a good movie. that was, it was original, that they'd never seen before. that had, that provides nutritious food for thought, things that need to be thought about. >> mm-hm. >> and that they have a memory of some real humor and and suspense, excitement, entertainment. >> yeah. >> i would like the audience to leave the theater feeling that their time has been well improved, and wanting to go back. >> i'm glad we saw that, i'm glad we played the clip we

played because it's a serious movie with issues need to be discussed even today, but you sitting on that horse. there's some humor in it. >> it's extremely important. >> so you want us to go back, i've seen the movie, we will want to go back. >> it was built to be seen more than once. we tried to put some legs on it so that the second and third viewing would be actually better than the first. >> we're going to go back, you're going to go back in the director's chair. >> i hope so. yeah. certainly hope so. >> keep doing stuff like this. i hope you do too. i'm honored to have you on our program. >> that's our show tonight. thank you for watching tonight, "the homesman," directed by tommy lee jones. until then, thanks for watching. ♪

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>> rose: welcome to the program. tonight two perspectives on the presidency. we begin with chuck todd, the anchor of meet the press. his new book is you will cad the stranger, barack obama in the white house. >> where he lacked the experience was being a politician. that is to me the lacking of experience. not executive leadership, it's not experience on the issues. it really is experience on the -- i had a senator describe it to me, a senator who was a big supporter of his and regrets it. and said i didn't realize he didn't have the experience of climbing the greasey pole of politicsment and that's something that at the end of the day in bastion you need to have. >> rose: we conclude this evening with al hunt on the story of john podesta, counseler to president obama. >> the chain ease side has said that it would peak around 2030 but with try to do it earlier.