good evening from los angeles, i'm tavis smiley. tonight a conversation with the legendary founder of motown records the chairman berry gordy on the dvd release of one of the great television specials of all time "motown 25: yesterday, today, forever." joined by emmy winning television producer and oscar nominee suzanne de passe. was at the label almost from the beginning and became president of motown productions. among her credits, "lady sings the blues" and "lonesome dove." we're glad you joined us. a conversation with "motown 25" with berry gordy and suzanne de passe in a moment. ♪

>> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. the impact of motown this country's cultural heritage cannot be overstated. a new dvd release celebrates one of television's greatest musical specials, "motown 25: yesterday today, forever." which highlights a parade of amazing hoe motown entertainers. joining me the legendary founder, the chairman, berry gordy, and suzanne de passe, the whom took motown into both television and movie production

winning along the way emmys and peabodys and for that matter an oscar nomination. first a look at a clip from "motown 25." ♪ ♪ if it's a smile on my face for's only there ♪ ♪ with a different feeling since you've been gone ♪ ♪ what's going on what's going on ♪ ♪ what's going on what's going on ♪ >> we saw stevy in that clip. and any of white house know stevie has any number of stevie stories. so i know there had to be a stevie story about this night. what was the stevie story, suzanne? >> well, we thought it would be a great idea -- and in hindsight it's such a terrible idea to

have stevie open the show. >> hold. on you thought stevie was going to be on time to open a show. >> we were working so hard that we forgot you know, the principles of stevie wonder land. >> exactly. >> so the call came in to dom in the booth our director. and they said, look stevie's not going to make it tonight. this is friday night the only night we're taping. he's not going to make it tonight but we will be there first thing in the morning. and dom -- he said, there is no tomorrow. it's tonight or nothing. and so we had to strike the set, rejigger the opening, and, you know -- it was -- it was such an amazing night. even the mistakes was great. >> they're their are always great been-the-scenes stories. it does speak to adapt ability. you couldn't be black in this business at the time that you all started and not know how to

adapt. >> well the great adapter over here what really created an environment for myself and everybody else at the company to just try so hard, reach so far. >> yes. >> and you know, try to keep up with him. >> yeah. mr. chairman, always an honor to have you on the set. thanks for coming back again. >> always my pleasure. >> glad to have you here. how did you keep your emotions in check that night? when you were looking at this happening on stage, you have to be just emotionally overwhelmed. how did you keep it together? >> i had many emotions, you know. i had happy emotions. i had sad emotions. i had angry emotions you know. i didn't want to go to the show. i felt bad later because i had attacked suzanne so much for even doing the show in the first place. many of those artists had left me, and i was -- i was at a time when the company was in trouble,

losing money, and to try to -- try to, you know -- have the budget stay the same up here. and the revenue drop down here without michael jackson, without marvin gay, you know. and you know, without the jackson five. i mean trying to build it one new people like lionel richie and -- >> james -- >> rick james. >> rick james, yes. they did phenomenal, you know. it just wasn't enough you know, i felt i, do anything. and i said hey -- we'll just build new people. start a whole new thing. in the meantime the expenses are there -- >> because you're a human you have a right to feel angst and anger. you help these persons build their careers. you built the model that gave an opportunity. you have the right to have angst and anger. i get that.

on the other hand, artists have the right to determine where they want to go and how they want toers and their gift. how did you ever come to terms with that? both of you have rights in the process. how did you come to terms and -- even though you were upset with people for not being on the label anymore? >> it was all because of the love. the love we had at motown. and it was smokey who came to me and said look you know, you love detroit, but you had to go out leave, seek your fortune do what you wanted to do. and detroiters may or may not have been happy with that. but you had to go out and seek your fortune. and they had to do that, too. and -- i said but they don't understand that -- motown may not be able to be here tomorrow morning or monday morning, whatever. he says you know you should come to the show because they're all coming back to honor you. they're all coming back. and suzanne has put this thing

together, and you had said you're not coming. and the fact that they came from wherever they were in europe, here back to celebrate you, and you -- i'm not coming. and so i think you're wrong. >> how did you come to terms with eventually selling the label? if you have separation anxiety with artists, i can only imagine that gets heightened and you finally decide that the time is now to sell this empire that you have built. how did you come to peace with the selling of motown years later? then we'll come back to "motown 25." >> because of the times. >> we had to do great work and feel the pulse of the people who we loved and loved us. in the meantime, business is business. and when you can see the future i realized that technology is moving faster than the speed of

light. and so i -- i wanted to sell the company but wanted to do it in such a way that everybody would win. and especially me. and i felt that -- i sole it in parts. i got -- i sold it in parts. i got to sell because technology is coming in. there will be changes here. and it turned out that i was like ten years ahead of that move you know. and i decided to sell it off. i sole the record company first. >> not the publishing house -- >> no. i health the publishing because i said whoever buys a record company will promote, promote promote, but the songs will get more and more valuable. five years later, i sold the publishing, you know, to -- it was a business. it was a business deal. >> yeah -- >> and to help the artists because i still loved the artists.

love is something that's that really goes deep. when i realized that they really did love me. they were doing the best they could at the time when the decision was right or wrong. they did it. >> i read a great book once called "to be loved." suzanne, there have been so many great -- i could tell you -- there are five or ten that pop into my head immediately. these great iconic moments in television where music is concerned. and this is in that -- you're in the top tier category. you think of the beatles on ed sullivan you think of these moments. you're in the top tier now. what do you think? you're the person that pulled this together. what to your mind makes this moment, this special so endearing and enduring for the american public? >> i think most of all the coming back together of all of the artists regardless of what labels they were on at the time,

but the reunion of smoky and the miracles, the reunion of michael with his brothers, you know which was really hard to put together. the reunion of the supremes even for that brief moment. and then seeing all these people together smoky with linda ronstadt. the moments are so indell nibble my mind. and -- indelible in my mind. and we were doing it and fascinated with what was happening on stage at the same time. its one of those things that for anybody in the pasadena civic that night, it was memorable. and people came back to do interviews who were there that night, including artists. but some of the -- just friends to the company, talking about it. and they remember it it was 31 years ago but they remember it because the energy kept feeding on itself and building and building. then, of course when michael came out and did "billie jean,"

it took to a whole other place. for me the finale is the key moment because seeing all of the artists together greeting berry, was what i think that song in the show was all about. that capturing that emotion for the songs is what that particular part of the show -- >> the chairman was kind enough to come on the program. i know everybody was asking but he was kind enough to come on after michael passed away. it's been five years now since we had that particular conversation. i know there's a story behind how that came to be. i'll let you tell the story. as i'm told from my sources, originally you wanted the artist to focus just on their motown hits. the rule is nobody was going do new stuff. as we called it favorite nation. everybody the sait same. everybody was going to do their

old stuff. yet this michael jackson hometown happened. how did it happen -- moment happened? how did it happen? and two, you mentioned earlier you were in the truck watching and trying to enjoy at the same time. did you realize in that moment what that moment was? tell me how it happened first of all. >> you know, it -- it's like a cocktail of events. michael at first didn't want to do the show. didn't want to get back with the brothers. it was a process. and i finally reached tout berry even though he -- reached out to berry even though he had mixed emotions. i didn't know the company was in trouble. i'm like, la, di, da we're celebrating 25 years. i finally had to reach out and say, "i need help with michael getting him to the show." sure enough, that was the magic conversation.

but he said, "well okay i want to do "billi"billie jean." that was a big record at the time. i think every artist on the show and watching and had been told you can't do your new stuff, they were okay with "billie jean." our part. >> when were you convinced it could be in the show? was it rehearsal -- how did you know we're going to make the skmepgz. >> no he said "i want to do billie jean," but we got a letter saying "you may not tape billie jean." forbidden. "michael only wants to do it for people in the pasadena civic." we had just seen it and went, oh, my god. we can't let that happen. i went and said, "look, let us tape it and if you don't like it, you can come to the editing room. if you don't like it we won't use it. but we have to tape it."

>> right. >> he agreed and came to the editing room and worked with us. he was very anticipate that end of the day. but the crafting of the was so much a moving target. this one's in, this is out. they're coming, they're not coming. stevie missing rehearsal. all of that. don't want to pick on stevie. but we had rooms upstairs, debarge working with choreographers. it took on a life of its own, you know. we were all trying to hold the tiger by the tail. >> yeah. mr. chairman, you said there were moments. sadness on that night. let me come to today, 2014 and ask how you -- how you processed sitting here having lost -- i mean, we're fans, and i feel -- i'm still grieving over michael. i ain't got over marvin being gone. that's been years. i'm crying about marvin not being here upon as i look at the

special, some of the folk it are no longer ear. it makes it more special to have in the election. some of these folks aren't even alive anymore. thankfully, you're still here. some of the folks who are gone are younger than you. how do you process losing not just friends but family? there have been a number. i think rick james -- the list -- too long a list to my mind. >> well, it's painful. but i find that you know, when -- you know you show your love to people when they're here. and you zat them whencelebrate them when they're here. you know they know you know it. and i know -- it's the love that's there. the motown love that you have. and if they have left -- i mean, we've seen etch ear -- been suing each other for 30 years, but we're best friends to. love overtake it all. takes away a lot of things the pettiness, the this, the that,

so forth. it is what it is. and -- and when we needed something for the show and i just said, i want to tell the truth of why i had to come back and i had to come to the show. there was diana, there was all these people that had left. but i knew they loved me. and they know i love them. and they all came back. and at first i was thinking, one night? what about tomorrow? but i realized they came back because they loved me. so i was so thrilled that this person here -- because i gave her hell. i said, i've done the show, i've put it together. i said, you've what? >> most people said no and i went -- didn't say no. >> i did say no. >> no you didn't. >> what you want a show for? >> you never said no. you said, "what i want a show

for?" i took that as i need to convince you. the next time we spoke, we had sold it to n bbc. the train had left the station. >> that's why suzanne de passe is the successful editor she is. she said she did not hear you technically say no. to her that meant, okay i'm going to try to sell him on this. that's the way you got to be if he didn't say no. >> he created that environment in motown. he created the space for you to push and not break. you know, to push hard but to know when to back off. and so to me the upside in my opinion -- i didn't know for sure -- was going to be greater than the downside because at the end of the day it rejuvenated a lot of the catalog. you know, it -- it was a moment in time. but he taught me the stuff that made me go do that. so i figure, how mad could he

be? >> update. >> that was the atmosphere that you were safe. >> my --. the idea that you were safe. >> my idea was there are no stupid ideas. we had a quality control meeting. we talked about before where they will say whatever was on their mind. there was no politics or egos allowed. suzanne was a hollywood -- she loved hollywood. and i would see her strutting with the stars. would you please get back to -- back working -- >> i was working. >> it turns out that's how hollywood works. >> it was working. >> this business is about relationship more than anything else. you got make connections. i love the decision, but how was the decision made to have pryor host this? why pryor? >> first of all, people don't know that berry was his manager at one time. and he had been a part of being with all stars and "lady sings

the blues." and he was a motown person as far as we were concerned. also probably the funniest person on the planet earth at the time. so we were thrilled when he agreed to do it. it goes back to he'lld been gone from motown forever. yet the glue that holds that affection and love and adventure shared kind of energy in place, that is unbreakable. you can't milk it, chop, it destroy it. it's kryptonite in a positive way. >> right. so richard of the obvious choice as far as i think we were concerned. >> given what this turned out to be how would you have felt if you had stayed home and batched it -- and watched on television and not been home -- >> i would have been the most miserable man. no, i -- >> speak into the mike. >> no.

i've tried to kiss her many times. but she won't let me get close. >> i think for me one of the most incredible moments was when we won the emmy. and you know, i can't tell you how much it meant to me to be able to say this one's for you for him. >> yeah. >> that was very nice. >> i feel your emotion in that. why of that so important for you? >> well first of all part of it was ha ha ha, ha ha. the rest of it was that we did it you know. kicking and screaming. holding on, challenging whatever it was that the greater hollywood embraced what we had done. >> before i ask another question of the chairman, what's on this that's different than what we saw -- there's got to be extra

stuff. >> there are many extra moments. >> tell me about it. >> we were in the editing room cutting things by fractions of a second. we only had two hours and we had you know, basically four hours of show. so we put back a lot of the things that were missing. performances that never aired like jose feliciano. and we sentenced stevie's medley. we extended the jackson' medley. we put it back to a more holistic of what happened that night. >> and there are interviews on this, too. >> interviews and -- featurettes where we made little mini documentaries about marvin about smoky. and what we're trying to do is surround what was a two-hour show with letting the audience feel what the impact was 30 years ago.

there's reminiscence and also more performance. and these featurettes. >> it's tough for the 800-pound show in a 300-pound bag. that's a lot -- >> we were. we were very challenged. >> yeah. >> and when it went on the air, we were so new to the television business, when the agents said, oh, my god you won the week. we didn't even know what it really meant in terms of ratings and stuff like that. >> so the motown brand endures. and it went to broadway. are you policed with the show and response to it? i saw it. >> i am ecstatic. >> yeah. >> over what happened in broadway because i had to go with a gut feeling of if you tell the truth in an entertaining way and you won't lose. so far we haven't lost. you know, it doesn't matter what people say. if's true they'll feel it. the ones that know it and lived it will feel it. and the new people will do. it and it always has messages.

things that i do, i try to have a message for people. >> he claims he's retired. and that is a tired story. he keeps going and going. he's got a brand new artist, a movie for "jaded race." he keeps saying "i'm retired." no no, you're just tired. >> yeah. the other day he said he's retired, which is true of the chairman here. you retired because you're working so hard you're getting retired every day. i am re-tired today, i'm re-tired tomorrow. that's at work. "motown 25" out on dvd. we've been waiting a long time. there's so much goodness and richness and -- artistic excellence in this dvd collection, as you heard suzanne say earlier. interviews and extended footage that you had not seen before. i love getting that stuff that's

never been seen before. that's what the "motown 25" dvd is b. congratulations. it was a great moment. i will remember watching for as long as i live. >> thank you. you know, kicking and screaming. >> kicking and screaming. >> right. >> to the chairman -- >> so interesting that his play is bookended by "motown 25." for someone that didn't want to do it and all that. >> i think she's twisting the knife, man. i think she's still turning -- [ all talking at once ] >> you don't know how hard he kicked my butt. >> i can only imagine. >> 31 years later. now healing. [ laughter ] >> that's how you know this is love. owl suzanne de passe could take to the chairman -- only suzanne de passe could talk to the chairman that way. i love you, and i'm always honored to have you here. there's not a language to describe or say how many of us feel about motown being the soundtrack to our lives.

we owe a great debt of gratitude to you that we will never be able to repay. so just thank you. >> thank you for thanking me because it's because of people like you and all the people around the world who. what we were feeling and what that vision was and just -- amazing to me. i've been blessed. i'm thankful and have such gratitude. >> good to have you both on. thank you. louf love you both. that's our show for tonight. thanks for watching. as always, keep the faith. ♪ >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for a conversation with aerosmith guitarist joe perry about his memoir clot rocks: my life in and out of aerosmith." that's next time. see you then.

and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you.

>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin this evening with dr. martin luther king and the march in selma and talk with the actor playing dr. king david oyelowo. >> he was an american hero but he didn't walk around in his life thinking i'm a hero i'm an icon i'm a historical figure. he was a man with flawings, with failings with witnesses, with transcendent qualities as well. but where i connected with him is, you know he's a man of faith. i'm a man of faith. i'm a father of four. he was a father of four. and these were my entry points. he lived a life of not just talking about it, but actually doing it. >> rose: we conclude this evening with pat ribling-- patricia clarkson who stars in "the elephant man" with bradley cooper. >> i walk on stage every night as miss kendall and i have lived this life, in my