rose: welcome to the program. we begin this evening with a tragic terrorist attack in paris killing 12 people. we begin with the cbs evening news with scott pelley and their report earlier this evening. >> late today, french authorities identified suspects wanted in the massacre this morning at the offices of a sat satirical magazine in paris. all are frenchmen. brother said and can a karif are well known to police. 18-year-old hamad marad is described as a homeless man. >> first, a volley of automatic gunfire. then the man shouts "get down." and the pedestrians dive for cover. journalist fled for safety and looked on horror.

witnesses said the shooting at the magazine's offices lasted from between 5 and 10 minutes. after it was over, the two masked gunmen spotted a police officer on the sidewalk and opened fire. then they executed him at point-blank range. you can hear one of them shout "this is to avenge the prophet muhammad muhammad." on the way back to their car relaxed and confidevent, one bent to pick up a lost shoe before they sped off. police later found the car abandoned less than a mile away. at the scene of the massacre, ambulance crews did their best for the injured and took the dead away from a neighborhood in deep shock. journalist ashard from a neighboring office tried to help. >> it was a very terrific scene with -- with everything broken

inside and many bodies inside. >> reporter: among those gunned down, some of the most famous names in french publishing. >> >> rose: more about the paris attack with caroline connan of bloomberg's paris by o. >> pairas has known a combination of art and the riske and it was founded by cartoonists and journalists after the magazine the word hebdo means weekly, they published a cartoon mocking the former president, charles de de gaulle's death. that was effectively banned. so these journalists came together and started "charlie hebdo." it has never been a stranger to con controversy. rose: we concluded with a conversation with ava duvernay a director of the film "selma". >> studying history.

a leader of people, a leader of leaders, that he was one of many people, the most beautiful voice, most eloquent voice of them arguably, but he was speak speaking for people. rose: is this a film about voices? >> it's what i truly believe rose: the paris attack and a conversation about the movie "selma" when we continue. funding for >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> rose: additional funding provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by

rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. deadly attack in paris, twelve people died after gunmen targeted the offices of the french satirical magazine "charlie hebdo." the victims include the he haddor and cartoonits. the identity of the three gunmen were con firms earlier today. two are reportedly brothers, french citizen ins their 30s. the other is an 18-year-old. his nationality was unknown as of this taping. the enter ministry denied earlier attacks the stackers were arrested. "charlie hebdo" was known for irref rant takes on members of politics and it had received threats for several years after publishing cartoons of the prophet muhammad, they were firebomb bed.

president france with a hollande called it bar bearty and declared thus a day of national mourning. president obama con determined the terrorism earlier today. >> our cooperation with france is excellent. we will provide them with every bit of assistance that we can going forward. i think we are going to make sure we recognize these kinds of attacks can happen anywhere in the world. rose: secretary of state john kerry reiterated the universal values of free expression and a free press. >> the murderers dare to claim "charlie hebdo" is dead. make no mistake. they are wrong. today, tomorrow, in paris and france, across the world the freedom of expression that this magazine, no matter what your feelings were about it, the freedom of expression that it

represented is not able to be killed by this kind of act of terror rose: joining me is julie greenhouse. care and caroline connan of beleaguer news who joins me from paris. i am pleased to have both hear this evening. caroline, let me begin with you. tell me what we know at this time as we tape this program at about 4:30 new york time and 10:30 parisian time. what do we know now? >> there has been several french media reports that the three suspects have been arrested according to the lib"liberation" newspaper a left-wing newspaper in france. however, at the most, the french interior ministry denies doesn't confirm or deny that these suspects have been arrested. according to several french

media reports we have seen in the past few hours, these three suspects include two brothers, of french algerian decent. 32 and 34 years old who came back from syria over the summer. the third one who possibly was the driver in these attacks this morning in paris was possibly an 18-year-old homeless in paris. so at the moment we don't have confirmation of these arrests. but these coincide with the police reports we had earlier in the day, that these attackers are very well-trained and may have received some military training, maybe, in syria. rose: do we know who they might have been affiliated with? either in syria or when they were back here? any notice about that? >> so no one, no group has officially claimed

responsibility for these attacks but, of course it has to be linked with the anger, the international anger that the islamic state because one of the gunmen this morning was heard in the street as he was leaving the "charlie hebdo" headquarters, he was heard saying what means god is great, which is something obviously we have heard in previous terrorist attacks including in france, around christmas, as you may know, we have had already two terrorist attacks in france. both men were shouting at a time as well. one of them drove into a crowd in a christmas market. we cannot say that this event is related, but for sure, they seem to be claiming the -- for the same code. rose: paris is on high alert tonight. what does that mean? >> "high alert" means there is

3,000 policemen around paris obviously protecting the transport system. you have airports and train stations or even churches or sites around paris being highly protected. the streets near the "charlie hebdo" headquarters i was there pretty much all day. the area around the newspaper was pretty loaded down by the police as this manhunt was still going on. and that also means that obviously, the government is going to be very careful againstround the places where you have gathers even though we had the french consul of the islamic.

5 million people, nearly 8% of the population, in fact, france has the biggest muslim community in europe. so now, obviously, the challenge for the government going forward is going to make sure that the french people do not meet these terrorists. >> rose: what do you know with the facts coming in since the terrible news of what had happened and some of the video we saw, what do we know about the attack and how it took place? place? >> ? >> the attack was around 11:00 a.m. this morning. it happened during the editorial meeting of "charlie hebdo" newspaper. two gunmen went inside the editorial meeting and started shooting people. as you know, at the moment, we have 12 dead from -- from the newspaper, including the editor in chief, including four very

famous cartoonists such as charles willin sky, they were all killed in the attacks. so these two gunmen were masked. they were equipped with klashnikovs and they had some help from a driver. there have been some reports that they actually came in from one side of the building initially and then, actually went to the wrong address. the wrong entrances of the building. then they went around the building to the right entrances and then they were held by a driver, was waiting outside to take them out. rose: there are reports that a policemen that had been injured was brutally assassinated as he was on the ground. >> yes. there was an amateur video going around this morning, going around twitter and pretty viral. it was very terrible, horrible scene of policeman trying to prevent his gunman from

escaping, from taking his car while the driver was waiting for him, and these police officer -- this policeman was shot in the face, as you can see in the video. rose: the last account now is .12 killed, and how many injured? >> the last count is 12 killed including these four famous cartoonists and 20 injured, 4 in very critical condition. they have been taken to the hospital nearby which is called the hotel jure. we actually visited the hospital earlier to support the victims support the family members, the victims. and there has been some sighcologists trying to help the victims and some neighbors who may have witnessed the attacks were also taken in that hospital for psychological support. rose: emily, tell me about this group. i mean about this publication.

i have read that the circulation is about 30,000. >> uh-huh. rose: satirical. stell me more. >> as you say a public indication with a circulation of inform 30,000, it's relatively fringe publication. france has known a combination of art and the riske. it was founded in 1970 by a group of cartoonists and journalists after the magazine. the word "hebdo means weekly, published a cartoon mocking the former president charles de de gaulle's death. that was banned. these journalists came together and started "charlie hebdo," and it's never been a stranger to controversy. in 2006 t published 12 cartoons. the danish cartoons of the prophet muhammad. that was treated with controversy and anger. in 2011, they presented an issue

called "sharia abdul" that was guest edited by the prophet muhammad that had a body, sort of lewd picture of the prophet muhammad saying "100 lashes if you don't laugh." so after that the office of the magazine was firebombed and the website was hacked. a week later from who knows where they were producing this publication, they printed on the cover of the magazine a very telling, in this moment, cartoon of the prophet muhammad making out with a man a white journalist and the caption was "love is stronger than hate." so the editor has really had sort of -- he was on the al-qaeda wanted list. he is known there has been a fatawa on him to an extent. rose: he was quoted as saying

early after there had been some threats in the firebombing, as i remember the quote he would rather die -- he would rather die standing than live on his knees. >> that's right. >> that's already become something of a posternd and a saying, with good reason. rose: tell me the spirit of the newspaper. i mean clearly they understood the risks they were taking. >> it was really i mean, the spirit is one of good fun and of high intelligence. i think it really elevated the form of the cartoon in france and in great part, it was there to deflate the over-in operated from hopes to prophets, to, you know, great men or men who thought they were great. there is definitely a lascivious character. nudity was more common. >> they got in trouble, the incidents in 2012 or one of the incidents that brought them to trouble was the prophet muhammad bending over. so there was definitely sort of

sexuality and painfulness but everything was fair game for the publication and the most recent issue, of course, they were attacked at their -- they were going to press today. so we will have to see what that issue has in store. >> will be a poignant and potent moment but in the most recent issue, there was a mock debate about jesus. it's not justicelam. >> from the new york today, amy davidson, quote, "this is a dangerous moment for france both in the frightening lyn immediate sense, there are armed terrorists loose in the capitol and because the decisions that a nation makes at a time of terror are not always the best ones for anybody." caroline let's talk more about the attitude and the feeling in france and what might change because of this attack. >> so of course the message today from all of the french people and from president hollande's address to the nation tonight was that franks needs to show unity in the face of this attack that france will win

this battle against terrorism. it was pretty impressive when you looked at the gatherings, the continuous gatherings we have seen in france tonight in paris but not only in paris. also in other cities like bardo. everywhere, you had thousands of french people protecting marching in silence in order to support the freedom of speech and to show, pay a tribute, of course to the victims. just in paris around the republic square, you had more than 10,000 people gathering. they were chanting, "charlie, charlie." some of them had candles. some of them had obviously signs with different cartoons from the different cartoonists who died in the attack. it was very showing moments on the republic square when thousands of people pointed their pens and their press cards

toward the sky in order to show that they were supporting the freedom and that the message from these newspapers will continue and the cartoonist message will continue to be defended in france. rose: from the people who survived this attack they are saying that "charlie hebdo" will continue? >> yes, there has been some support from other journalists saying some might voluntarily help the "charlie hebdo" journalists who survived the attack, to publish the next issue of "charlie hebdo" in order to show support for this magazine, this weekly magazine because at a time would be -- the result would be "charlie hebdo" didn't have an issue. there has been some support on twitter feeds journalists have

gathered in this square in paris saying that they will help "charlie hebdo" to continue to be published. rose: what's scheduled for tomorrow? >> for tomorrow, there is going to be an emergency -- new e emergency cabinet meeting at 8:30 a.m. and it's going to be a national day of mourning in france. so the flag has already been taken down, half mast on most public places in phrase. at theplace de la bastille. all of the public monuments. the flags are at half mast. there will also be of course some support from the different newspapers around the country. many newspapers have planned to have their front page completely black and of course will have to also follow this twitter feed which is going viral. "i am

charlie" which there has been more than half a million tweets already just in the past 12 hours and so the attack this morning, we've -- a tribute to the people who died. rose: we talk a lot in this country about leading up to those people who have gone to fight in syria, got in training and coming back because they have a passport from france or the united states? >> right. rose: or germany or other places. tell me about france and this and what the fear is and how the french plan to as much as you can know, combat it. >> france has the largest muslim population in europe as well as the largests jewish population in europe. i bring that up. it can very often feel and in my experience feels like a small micro cosm of the israeli pal

israeli/palestinian tensions. many children and grandchildren who have come to france who, you know, were born in france and are nationally french citizens feel disenfranchised, feel they cannot get jobs and it's difficult after such a heinous event today to draw certain parallels and not trying to do that, but there is a real sense of alienation among this group in particular. i think, you know the rector in paris today, the mosque naturally said particularly horrible for our community. there have been, i believe, approximately 1,000 french citizens who have gone to iraq and syria to join the jihad and the islamic state and that's very scary. there were the attacks of the jewish school in. is it ouloose. these are french citizens. it's not an ternlings threat at this point. >> caroline, as one other point, there is a novel, i think that has been written, which has received some controversy in

paris. can you tell me more about that? >> yes. of course. this week in the "charlie hebdo," the cover is about this michelle book called "submission" coming out this week in france. and that's already sparked a lot of controversy in france because it's a fiction of course, but it's depicting france taking place in 2022. so the not the next presidential election in france but the one after that. it's saying it's imagining in that 2022 french presidential elections in the second run, you will have the national running against a candidate called ben abass in the fiction from the muslim fraternity. in the book, the socialist party and the right-wing party in france are actually supporting

the muslim candidate who wins the election. of course this book has very controversial here it has been in the french media over the past two days everywhere. so trying to defend this book submission which, of course, is also a symbol of the freedom of expression, but there ishas also been some criticism it might have fuelled anti-islam anti-muslim movement in france that already is pretty high obviously. rose: your reaction to that book? >> i haven't read the book yet, but i think similarly, the issue, the issue on the "charlie hebdo" shows it's a character can a caricature. there is great sensitivity of islam in france because this is the country at hand and it's being perceived as blas femous.

rose: thank you emily. thank you caroline. >> thank you. rose: back in a moment. stay with us. ava driver's license duvernay is here the film with particular relevance remind us race remains one of the country's biggest issues. the associated presses calls "selma" a history lesson that throbs with today. here is the trailer for today. >> we've got detroit. los angeles and large-scale arrests and sympathy marches. >> i am very aware of that, mr. hoover. what i do know is non-violent. what i need to know right now, what's martin luther king about to do next? >> dr. king is here.

>> mr. president, in the south there have been thousands of racially motivated murders. we need your help. >> doctor king, it's going to have to wait? >> it cannot wait. >> you have 100 issues. i have 101. >> here is the next great battle. >> selma is the place. >> dr. king. >> i tell you. >> we will not tolerate the disturbance in this state. it is unacceptable that they use their power. >> those who have gone before us say, "no more." > they are going to kill our children. they try to get inside of your head. >> enough is enough. we will be on the path. ? >> we must march. we must stand up.

>> to march those people in rural alabama, it's going to be open season. rose >> may i have a word? >> there is no word to be had? >> the people. the people. the people. the people. the people. >> there are 70 million people watching. these are going around the world. >> demonstrate. >> white, black, and otherwise come to selma. >> i have heard about the attack of innocent people. i couldn't just stand by. >> it looks like an army out there. >> a revolution. it's a revolution. >> i have seen the glory glory, glory. hallelujah. >> standing up. enough is enough. rose: i am pleased to have ava duvernay at this table for the first time.

welcome. >> thank you. rose: congratulations as well. it was notedes coming to make this film. >> no. it was a journey but a beautiful one. rose: tell me about the journey. >> well, i mean the journey began before i even came on board. it begins with our leading man who plays dr. king who just so desired that this be in the world, that this piece be in the world that he really made it so you know. he brought me on board. he brought oprah winfrey on board really an example of an actsor taking charge of his own destiny also knowing that this story spoke to such a larger time, a larger issue. so unfortunatei am unfortunate a friend got me this gig. >> the interesting idea is that there has not been a film about someone so pistolvot -- pivotal in the history of america. >> the full journey rose: documentaries? >> never a cinematic, major

motion picture retelling or approach or exploration of this time in the 50 years since the events that we chronicle. there are biopics about other folks but king has been treated very tangentially, a part of the atmosphere. rose: why? >> so many issues i think a big part of it is that it's just a very complex time in our history that's a challenge to kind of delve in to and walk away from unscathed in a way. i mean there are so many prospect if i haves and points of view about what the time was, who he was, what was going on at that moment. rose: it makes it so rich. sorry? >> a lot of people are pleased though, which i think is one of the reasons why there has been some folks that have backed away from it. you know, yes, it's rich but it's complicated. rose: a hard story to tell? >> a lot of people to police.

rose: to police? >> yeah, so many different constituents that have to be, you know, acknowledged figuring out how to treat that. i think that was from previous film makers that i have talked to has been one of them. also issues of the intellectual property and this is a film with -- with, you know a personal color at the center just to be very honest. this is not at the top of the list of studios to make. so, you know, once these things are made, i think there is a beautiful kind of embracing of them but they are not -- they are not the first things people think of that are going to bring in box offices. >> other directors were associated at one time, they made the film of malcolm x? >> yeah. over the years, beautiful film makers that have attempted top think about exploring the material but it never came to fruition. rose: which story did you want to tell? >> i wanted to tell stories of people, you know, really just studying history, you know, and my african-american studies from

ucla. history was the most vibrant. he was a leader of people, actually a leader of leaders, that he was one of many people, the most beautiful voice the most eloquent voice, the most viebrant voice of them arguably but he was speaking for people. rose: a film about voices? >> a film about voices of what i truly believe great minds, you know, spurred on and pushed on by the voices of the people. so it was really critical that the people -- we call him "king" for a reason. >> it was more than one people? >> people in selma who risked their lives. >> right rose: the people around king? >> the people around king and around his camp and the civil rights movement rose: the people of selma and the governor of alabama. >> absolutely. all of those voices, you know not a monolith. these with are people who have ideas about how to achieve equality, how to achieve

justice. >> that's one of the things we try to create in the tapestry of "selma" was that there were con conflicting points of view but they coalesced by king. that was his genius. rose: what were the restrictions snment? >> we didn't have the real words. i say it kind of matter-of-factly. it was a huge time but we do not have his -- the intellectual property that is king's words. rose: because? >> because they belong to someone else. rose: you can't rent them buy them? >> very expensive? >> it's very expensive. it's more money than we had and the conversation that we didn't pursue because those rights the cinematic rights to his words are already with another film maker. rose: that's interesting. >> it's not me. so, i mean -- rose: you must have had conversations about other film makers? >> yeah. i think ultimately our film is

about, you know, 3 months of the voting rights marches in selma, the estate and the family is -- certainly should have a film that kind of tells the full life. so those rights are being reserved for that, which is a film that i very much want to see. rose: so would i. i think this does kindle -- rekindle an interest in dr. king, the man. >> yeah rose: who he was and why he was and all of the the complexities of him. >> that's the hope. a fascinating radical. he has been homogenized. the non-violence is all people know. he believed in peace and he made a great speech and then he was murdered. there is just so much more there. there. it's fascinating, robust a dynamic charismatic that has been lost. and i think some of this

deification in some ways. rose: we want to avoid that? >> yeah, at all costs. that was our vital mission for sure. rose: there is also the question of david. where does this interest come from? he wrote letters to get you as the director. >> right. rose: he worked with you. >> in a small film that i made yeah. rose: but was so impressed he put his own reputation on the line to say she can do it. rose: that's right. >> i had made independent that were well received but my biggest budgeted was 200,000. this was 20 million. it was quite a jump. it was david who advocated for me in a way that's just very rare in the industry. and for his appeal to be embraced and listened to and accepted and approved is also very rare. so this has all come together in a way that's not the way films

are usually made. rose rose: his performance, how did you try to help him shape the performance? >> i am there to be a partner of the performance with him but it is, it's completely him. rose: giving him the freedom to do what he can do. >> give him the freedom to do what he can do and be there to support be there to nudge, to push a bit. be there to question, to challenge, to ask questions about, you know, motivations and independent but when you have an actsor that's as good as he is with just a deep reservoir of emotions so many places to go, it's kind of take your hands off of the wheel and let him do his thing. rose: this is david talking about you, sitting where you now sit. here it is: >> she has a die correctorial voice like no one i have en encountered encountered. that's when i wanted her to direct selma rose: what is that. >> she mines character more than

anyone i have worked with. she is more interested in silences than she is words. of course, she is a writer/director. so she is interested in words. but there is something she does. there is something so brave about what she does off of the line as well as on the line and you know, i have been taught that true acting is reacting, and i saw her get things out of me in the middle of nowhere that i didn't know were in there. i always knew that in playing dr. king, what i couldn't afford to do was just er accentuate what we already know. i needed someone who could guide me to what we don't. rose: how did you do that? >> i just tried to remain very present with the actnors their moment. when you are directing there are 10,000 things going on at any given moment. but at the point that, you know, i am facing an actor and attempting to partner with him in that performance, it's really about giving them whatever they need and so my job is to figure out what that is whether they know it or not. rose: tell me about your

journey. you became a public cyst? >>ists a public cyst for many years. rose: you may be the first publicist. >> very small club. rose: puts you close to direct orders? >> proximity of directors is what it gave me. >> including spielberg. >> right. beautiful film makers rose: when did you start saying i can do this? >> in the set of a michael mann move called "collateral." it was a specific scene. jamie fox and tom cruise were on the set that day and there was something about all of these beautiful black and brown people and the biggest star in the world and a great dp and director and i thought this is something i would like to do. rose: did you want to make films about the african-american experience? is that where you wanted to make the film. >> i am most interested in lives of people on the margin. certainly as a film maker that's

just getting started trying to find my voice, you know i was immediately interested in the life of black women specifically and brown women and issues of marginalization and try amp and beauty of us. rose: i have red that black female film makers is a very small sorority? >> it's a small but mighty tribe. rose: what do you want to do to encourage more? >> i can only continues to make work and open doors that other people walk through with me, not behind me but beside me. there are women who came before me who did beautiful, beautiful work but their aims aren't being amplified in a way that mine is at this moment. there are women who are my peers and i am approached by women of all colors who are very interested in getting in to film. it's a challenge, you know, women film makers and how we are is able to grow in an industry

that is not interested in that blossoming. it's a lot about the sisterhood of talking to one another and trying to just keep everyone fortified rose: filmmakers of all colors? >> yes. rose: reese witherspoon behind the camera. >> yes. rose: some she stars in. some she doesn't. the idea is to give women power. >> the idea is not to give women power. the idea is for women to take that power, i think. rose: that's what it is. you are right. >> the self determination. i try to work from a place without permission. i am not working in a permission-based way so i just encourage us all to try to find our own way and not wait. rose: but her experience and your experience, it does give them some sense of incentive. >> i hope so. rose: to speak the opportunity to do the things that they clearly have the talent to do.

you had encouragement as you have from david. >> right. rose: where did oprah come on board. >> sweeping in like a fairy god mother. glenneda, the good witch of "selma." she came on board and everything just kind of started to vibrate with an energy and they then a real -- a real just a thrust a momentum of proceedpulsion that she brought to the project. when she came on board >> everything took off. it was an amazing group of producers who were around the project early on. but it had -- it had hit a point where it needed fresh air, fresh energy and she provided that. rose: did she want to be in the film, or was that your idea? >> she did not want to be in the film. rose: i didn't think so so. >> i mean she really didn't want to be in the film. she wanted it -- rose: she had been in "the butler"? >> she is so gracious a lot of times when she is around, the spotlight goes to her and she

didn't want that to be the case for the film. she wanted it the spotlight to be on the people in the movement, the leaders that we were amplifying. i think that was one of the issues for her. but then, also rightly so in every movie she is in, she is hitting someone. and in this film, she takes a good swing back. i don't know what that's about. eventually she came on board and sdhe she did beautiful work on the film. rose: here is an excerpt from the film showing opinionerainion -- show be oprah in action. >> down at the rest home. ain't that right? >> yes. >> i wonder what he will say when i tell him one of his gals is stirring up a fuss. >> i am not stirring a fuss. i am just trying to regterister to vote. >> besides the constitution's preamble -- do you know what a preamble is?

>> we, the people of the united states in order to form a more perfect union. >> how many county judges in alabama? >> sixty-seven. >> name them. rose: thatdoes that move you? >> i haven't seen that clip in a while. i remember the day shooting that. it was the day that mya angelou died and she came to the set oprah and i said to her, we don't have to do this today. and she said, i will do it for all of the women who actually -- who actually endured this

humiliation and all of the men and women who actually went through this. and so yeah, i mean all through the film, our intention was just to just illustrate the emotion of what is in the history book. you know there is one thing to read and say, voting rights were denied and there were lit racy tests that were in play that actually see what someone had to go through to five times go to a window where you knew that there was no one for you in that situation. there was no one rooting for you. no one wanted you to do it and yet you believe in your own personhood enough, your own liberation enough to want to do it and to endure it. so, it means a lot to me to see these things. rose: what do you think you have accomplished here? >> the goal was to breathe life in to these stories that i feel even for black people of my generation have been kind of

top-lined, you know. the key facts. and it doesn't live and breathe. it's not part of our dna as it was in the previous generation that went through it. there has been a disconnect there. i say it for myself in terms of an understanding, an empathy, a true connection to that time. and so for that reason, my hope is that the film has -- has some meat on these bones, you know. the skeleton of history. rose: some of them who were there and lived through this experience are still alive frpts they are still alive, yeah. rose: what did they say. >> they is asked me to be careful with the story. they asked me to show what really happened. they lived in a state-sanctioned terrorist environment. there was terrorism happening there in the way that, you know you could not move freely.

you continue express yourself without there being repercussions to your livelihood to your life to your home, and so to break through that it was a living memory. this is 50 years ago. to break through that, to say i will drink water from wherever i want. i will vote and determine who governs in my local area. i will participate in this american process. to do so, i have to put my body on the line to do it because it is not law. because no one is protecting me. i will do so. that was what i was asked to be careful with. that was what was of utmost importance to me. rose: did you make it your point to make sure you had seen eyes on the prize, all of the great documentaries the books about king? >> i had seen all of them before. the beautiful thing about this for me people ask how was the jump made from small "i" ndies

to the larger film i knew the history i had studies the civil rights movement. my father is from alabama. "eyes on the prize" is on a loop at the house. this is part of my family history and legacy as well. in addition, reading everyone in the film that's named is a real person. almost everyone wrote an auto biography. really being able to delve into that rose: many are stlooef talk to? >> many. congressman lewis and ambassador young. rose: what do they say? i have talked to andrew young. i saw him at an event in new york. we sat and talked about it. >> yes. rose: he said to me, what he said is that, he said daniel daniel -- i mean, david, what he did for me he said was capture the spirit of martin. >> that's what he said. he didn't necessarily sound lime him. he didn't necessarily look like him but he was his spirit. >> yeah. yeah. and, you know, acongressman lewis

as well coming to the set and seeing david and talking to him as dr. king, that's what we were trying to do is capture the spirit of the time. this is a movement that was at its peak for 13 years, we had 120s minutes. there were complicated relationships, nuances and strategy and policy and all kind of things going on. we are making a film and our goal was to just really get to the -- to the best word is the spirit of it. you cannot get -- you cannot be a mimick. this is what we were talking about with david's performance. we weren't interested in mimickry. do i have an understanding of king as a man? this is what we were going for rose: of much complexity and dimension which you have to touch on? >> yes rose roads there is the question of lyndon johnson. >> that's right. rose: some who worked closely

said lyndon johnson and martin luther king were partners in this. they were not adversaries. do you accept that? >> absolutely. it was the most progressive and crucial legislation around civil lights that's ever been passed. rose: which do you see as johnson's role? someone who was there as a partner with dr. king, understood the political difficulties of getting the voting right but wanted to take his knowledge of washington and the congress and use it for dr. king's benefit, or someone who didn't really want to make it a priority? and, therefore had to be dragged in to an involvement in the cause? >> dragged in to is probably not -- not the word that i would use, and it's not what we portray in the film. rose: what would be the word that you would think would characterize lyndon johnson's -- >> i think he was reluctant at first. the timing wasn't right.

we show in the film he says, we just passed the '64 act and it's not been enforce did. let me get through the great society. let's work on the war on poverty. let's do these things first. and that's what it was. did he not want to do it is not something we talk about. did he not want to do it now is what we explore in the film. at that moment in early 1965, just having come off of passing the civil rights act, just having taken office for the second time, this was a time that was the wrong time for the president to delve into this and yet it was a crucial time for the civil rights movement as people were dying in the south at that moment. and so, you know we are coming off of the four little girls just months before being bombed in birmingham, coming off of this idea that black people at that moment could not even, you know participate in their own right to justice. you couldn't sit on a jury if you were not registered to vote and if as a black person you could not register to vote. how do you gain justice? these are issues of life and

death. they continue wait. that's what we talk about in the film. folks who are having a problem with our portrayal of johnson's legacy, the very bill that he made so the very voting rights act that he made so is almost no more. >> is a legacy that's been den denigraded. more than a scene in a film you feel may not have been exactly right but i would argue our film does not show johnson in the negative light. it shows him as a man who had a complex relationship with king. their relationship was not a hand-holding thing. they came to a consensus but it was a rocky road to that. rose: andy has stepped forward to say johnson was very important, as you know. >> absolutely. i say he was very important. our johnson character in the film gets wild applause at the end of the film when he makes

the "we shall overcome" speech. that is a moment that's been constructed by our team in the film to be the triumph the american triumph that it is. no one is taking anything away by saying that these were two great minds. neither man was a saint. neither was a sinner. there is no -- there are no extremes here that we are playing with. we are playing with the gray area where life happens rose: in the trenches of history. >> they were men. they were real living, breathing people. they remember human beings in their relation -- and their relationship relationship was complicated. i am not here as a film maker to congratulate, compliment, any of these things. what we were looking for was the truth as we saw it. there are a lot of questions. there are a lot of gray areas. that was the truth as we saw it, and that's what we made. but at no point did we say johnson was not the hero. at no point do we say it's not important. and from the challenge for us to

hear folks say shun this movie rule out this movie because it does not have this pristine, sanitized view of lbj, i think, is unfortunate and i hope we can move past it. rose: you open with a scene of king about to make the noble speech. >> i do. rose: why? >> i wanted to at that moment, we actually open on coretta. rose: you do? >> the intimate moment of coretta and king right before the noble. it was important to have that first scene of a husband and wife, just fiddling over a tie, the subtext of his worry his stature, the problem he was began gaining would overshadow the movement in what was happening back home that was a struggle for him. to really just amplify at that he was a man with every day concerns, whether it's the tie, whether it is what his friends would think of him, whether it was, you know, balancing challenges with what it feels

like to be on a public stage, that's why that scene is there. then he goes into the noble and standing at his full height as he is about to give a speech which is one of the great gift his speech of oratory rose: does he write all of his speeches >> from what i have researched, yes, he wrote his speeches. we show some moments. there have been moments we have king thinking about a speech. it was an idea that he had a pen and paper and had to figure it out. rose: i like that question, not knowing, a, and, b, because you do see this close relationship he had with the people risking their lives especially ralph abernathy, williams andy young, later, don lewis. >> diane nash. >> james bevel james orange. we populated the film. we populated the film. it was important for me to bring those characters in because they

were all so dynamic. they were all so so just the depth of the intellect, the strategy, the tactics that they all came to when they came together in those rooms is just the texture of it was something we wanted to capture rose: for you what's the essential quality of dr. king? >> he was a voice of the voiceless. i mean literally through the speeches and the gorgeousness of his oratory for those who might not have been arct artic lake to -- to articulate. rose: he was a voice. >> that's essential to what his voice was about but him as a man? >> as a man. the word that comes to mind is dignity. i mean he was dignity personified. he demanded dignity of everyone

around him. he demanded dignity for everyone around him. >> that's the word that comes. compassion and certainly freedom fighter, certainly a truth seeker, but at the core of him and this is something that andrew young talks about he was a pastor to everyone around him. andy young says the one part of the film that he had never seen was king stand upup to johnson face to face. there is a scene where we have johnson and king standing face to face symbolically, standing over and giving him the johnson treatment and king is stand there looking in his eyes. he said king might have looked away or been a little bit more giving to the president in that moment, you know, our goal with it was to symbolize the power of both sides coming together in that moment. but, yes, i think the dignity that he demanded of everyone around him for everyone around him is what he means to me. rose: thank you. it's great to have you here congratulations. >> thank you so much. rose: thank you for joining us.

see you next time. for more about this program and earlier episodes visit us online at pbs.org and charlierose.com. ♪ captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

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