>> rose: welcome at that time program, we begin this evening with a tragedy in paris, and for a look at today's news, cheer is scott pelley of the cbs evening news. >> tonight in their hour of sadness the people of france are showing the world their determination. they mourned the 12 killed yesterday in the terror attack on the satirical magazine "charlie hebdo" or carlie weekly. some held pencils in honor of the pfeiffer cartoonists without died-- the five cartoonists who died. the nationwide manhunt for two suspects still on the loose is now into its second night and we have a series of reports. we'll begin with clarissa ward north of paris. clarissa? >> good evening scott. this gas station is the last place where those two suspected gunmen were believed to have been seen making the rural area all around here the current

focus of the search. france is on its highest terror alert.ñi more than 80,000 security forces have fanned out across the country. a massive drag net to find the missing gunmen. officers blocked roads and searched houses in the picadry region north of paris after reports that the two heavily armed men hadçó robbed a gas station there. said and cherif kouachi are the chief suspects in today's massacre. today more details began to emerge about their past. french media describe the two as orphans of all letterian dissent who were raised in foster care. the younger brother cherif grew up performing and listening to rap music and worked as a pizzañi delivery boy. but accordinging to some reports, he became angry at the invasion of iraq joined a small group of extremists. he was arrested almost a decade ago as he set off to join jihadies fighting american forces in iraq.

according to testimony at his trial in 2008, he also dreamed of striking jewish targets in europe. the two brothers were well-known to french authorities, raising the question of how their plans to attack "charlie hebdo" went unnoticed by police. as darkness fell tonight the hunt continued. >> police are going through towns and villages across this entire area. they're on foot. they're going door-to-door looking for any possible hiding places. >> at the house of the mayor of this villeage officers asked if there were any caves nearby. then went toñi investigate. >> i'm not scared, the mayor told us but my daughter who is another village is very afraid. she's alone with the children. she doesn't feel safe. >> . >> rose: we continue looking at paris through the ices of lyse doucet, the bbc's chief international correspondent. >> it's quite extraordinary how this attack has struck

such a very deep chord across french society across all walks of life. and i thought the best way i can describe it is how so many people here in searching for a crime for an unprecedented a monstrous attack for which there are no words they're reaching back to those horrendous attacks it of september 11th and sayinging this is our september 11th attack. and in the same way that the twin towers were seen as a symbol of america's great economic power in new york what is it here in paris? they have taken a cartoon and they have two sharpened pencils like the twin tower and a plane going toward them. and what do they see the attack here. it's not just an attack on a much cherished french institution a satirical magazine t is an attack on freedom of expression in france, an attack on the values and the principleses that they hold dear. >> rose: also this evening john miller deputy commissioner of intelligence

and counterterrorismñi at the new york police department. >> what we know is you had two, possibly three individuals who are on açó mission. and the mission was killing. and charlie when you look at that videotape and you see, you know they go into the newspaper office. and if they've done their homework, and they most likely did they understand that there is two police officer as signed there to protect it. so they fact their in, that they are going to take on armed resistance. >> rose: lyse doucet john miller and more on paris when we continue. >> funding for charlie rose is provided by theñi following:ñr >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> rose: additional funding provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide.

captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. of mourning in france. on wednesday gunmen stormed it the offices of the satirical newspaper "charlie hebdo" killing 12ñi journalists and wounding 11. last night parisians gathered in the republic holding a pen in solidarity with the victims. the eiffel tower remained dark in their memory. today the victims were honored with a national day of mourning. and a moment ofñr silence. it has also been a day of high alert as french authorities pursue the suspects in the shooting

one of the three men identified by authorities turned himself in today. the remaining two are still at large. intherrien-- interior ministry said every possible lead was being followed and nine people taken into custody. an intense manhunt is focused on northeastern france following reports that the suspects may have robbed a local gas station. the attacks have re-ignited the debates regarding foreign fighters returning from iraq and cyria. joining me from paris is lyse doucet, a bbc chief international correspondent. i'm pleased to have her here on this program. it is getting later in pairs. describe the mood there that city for me lyse? >> the mood is profound charlie. it's quite extraordinary how this attack has struck such a very deep korda cross french society across all walks of life and i feel the best way i can describe it is how so many people here in searching for a crime for an unprecedented a monstrous attack for which there are no words they're

reaching back to those horrendous attacks of september 11th and saying this is our september 11th attack. and in the same way that the twin towers were seen as a symbol of america's great economic power in new york what is it here in paris? they have taken a cartoon and they have two sharpened pencils like the twin towers and a plane going toward them an what do they see the attack here it's not just an attack on a much loved and much cherished french institution a satirical magazine it is an attack on freedom of expression inñr france, an attack on the values and the principleses that they hold dear.aud we can't forget that for centuries the rallying cry here has beençó libertye egality liberty equality fraternity. and that is why it is such a raw nerve here because they feel they have touched it at the very essence of france itself. >> there are those who say that there will be a before charlie and and after

charlie. do you agree. >> well, i think you are speaking to me from the unitedçó states and everyone when they-- anyone whether in their personal life or their national life are touched by something so dramic so beyond anything they have seen before. you want to believe in some way that things will be different. and in some way they will be different. i have to say that standing today-- which has been one of the biggest gathering places here in paris where last night it was a place of people of morning by also of celebration of what france holds dear saying that whatever the threats they are that people are going to stand strong against it and today on a gray cold day a rainy day in paris, markinging what has been what is being recorded as-- regards as one of the darkest moments in french history the french people stood for this moment of silence and you just looked around at all the faces. not only did they do that

they held hands. and then when the moment of silence ended. when all you could hear across france for the most part, well across paris was the ringing of the bells at the cathedral of notre dame then spontaneously, and i have never seen this before in a moment of silence. i'm sure you have seen moments of silence in many place, they started clapping. that after the solidarity in a show of strength to say that this is how, this is us this is us speaking out clapping together later in the day when i spoke to some french people in some shops and i said well did you have your moment of silence. and they said yes we did. i said do you doñi that often. they said this is the first time we have done it since the attack on september 11th in the united õ1tes. so that gives you a measure of how just how profound this moment is here in france. >> rose: i mean all of my experiences i find that people generally respond in times of crieses -- crisis

with remarkableñr steadfastness and courage and reaching out to help their fellow citizens. >> a number of french people have said to me today that beforeñi this attack, and it has to be taken in the right context, they said that there was a sense of ennui in france even people say of desperation. people asking what are we as a nation, what is it that binds us because there were so many political can sal-- scandals economic recession, that france was losing its come was that it has held very dear for so many centuries. and suddenly this attack happens and it reminds this country what they are all about. and people said to me that for example last night at the place de la republic, i ran into two men, why are you here. he said i'm jewish and was born in tunesia. the other man said i was born a muslim i'm french but basically anatist.

i said why are you here. are you journalists. they said no, no, no we're connected to the media industry, 's part of the distribution networks. we drive the trucks but we felt connected-- connected to in a way to what has happened. people in the younger generation charlie heb do many people have said to me today is a people's grandfathers and fathers older people. but it is young people who came out understanding what this has meant the schoolchildren today commenting on what this has meant. and i think you're right that people people respond because it's not about something distance-- distant t strikes at their very essence. because they feel afraid too. a number of people said to me today on the one hand they say i'm afraid now. because we have had this one attack. someone said on the subway everyone was looking at everyone else saying well it could happen again. and yet, one of the slogans in the squares they held up was we are not afraid so they feel pulled in two directions. they want to be brave.

they know the integrity and survival of the very essence of their lives that they is at risk now but they feel scared because they know once it happens once it could happen again. >> is there much worry about that very thing the copycatting of this? >> there is always i think after an attack of this kind there is always a way in which the reaction he volumes. first of all it is shock, as if the whole nation comes to a halt because they are so stunned by what has happen. and this is an utterly shocking attack the weapons the way they assaulted the paris headquarters of charlie heb do then an outpouring of grief, then anger today açó day of national mourning with the flags at half-mast i have seen tears today in the streets of paris. but slowly tonight, you watch the first television shows and the questions the questions are being asked

with some hesitation but questions that must be asked what is the future of the muslimñi community here in france what is the future the muslim community. because of course christine-- one of the leading french journalists said to me that this is a question that is difficult to answer because it is against french law to ask people what their ethnic origin is and what their religion is, so they don't really know how many muslims what percentage it is, and how many immigrants but there is a sense in which this makes up the greater percentage of the immigrant's population so that will be there-- what about bind them to french sochlt and in fact i spoke to a french journalist today of arab origin. he said one of my colleagues broke down crying today saying we have no future in france. and that's being manifested in political questions, that even though francois hollande at 7:30 this morning he was in the pal us-- palace having meetings all day with his political

rivals even ma yee la pen has been invited there from the national front. but she hasn't been invited to the solidarityçó rally on the streets on sunday. tonight even the bickering is starting among the politician. do we invite a party that is seen on the far far right that has seen immigration as a problem that is part of the problem and not part of the solution so already you are getting this these cracks in what the national unity that francois hollande yesterday when he visited the scene of the crime, said this is what holds using to. this is our greatest strength our weapon our national unity. we must guard it. and that i think is the fear that you know, one man said to me today. i said what is your reaction to what has happened here.ñi he was a young man who worked in a restaurant i said what were you thinking of in the minute of silence. he said i feel lost. he said i don't know what to say. i'm at loss i have lost all my bearings, he said we have to stand together not for one minute not for a few days we have to standing to for a very long time.

and that's the concern now going back to your question after an attack like this what changes in the society back to that before and after moment or does france go back to what it is before and is it more difficult to resolve the old questions or is it easier. that i think is the big question tonight. >> one important think that is going to happen is that "charlie hebdo" is going to print in the largest printing ever, one million copies for its upcoming issue. which seems enormously significant to me that it says to everybody you can kill us but you cannot stop us. >> this is extraordinary it's usually a 60,000 print run. they are goinging to print a million and it's going to be half the size but a hugely augmented impact. and i think there will be people around the world who will want to buy the copy of that paper. and i think will be great anticipation about what kind of cartoons will be published in that paper because again it's

this-- this is a country of voltaire and in a very french way people were saying today that you know the founder of french is a satire that he has died today, they killed voltaire. but in another sense they think they can't kill voltaire. one said to me they said this is a declaration of war this is our 9/11. and i said why he said they have attacked it theçó republic and they have attack ited humor. this goes to the french satirical cartoonists the four of the eight journalists who died are well-known and much loved and their death in a way is highly symbolic. it a two of them are in their 80s. they have been through the algerian war, through the turbulent history of france. and now they are cut down in the middle of an editorial meeting. the one moment of the week where all the cartoonists the journalists were sitting together around that table. in one fell swoop one ambush they were all killed.

and so of course it is incumbent on "charlie hebdo" to publish again. the big question is will it give pause for thought. we're already hearing about the danish publication that had published the cartoon sat irizing the prophet muhammad in attacks there. they say they are to the going to publish them. some people are pulling back and saying this is too much of a risk. i have been asking people today whether this how this would impact this great tradition in france and the feeling we're get stag that they say no, we don't pull our punches this is how we are in france. because dharlie hebdo made a big big virtue of the fact that no one was spared. nothing was index pressable. they went after muslims. they went after christians they went after jews, they went after politician, the right, the left the young and the old. no one was beyond the weapon of the pen. and i think they, if they

stop doing that, they will stop being "charlie hebdo" and they will stop being french. and don't forget people may not know that "charlie hebdo" is named after charlie brown and one of the cartoons that was re-create-- retweeted the most on the site twitter was charlie brown, and i think a lot of your viewers know about charlie brown, sitting on a bench with his head in his hands. who can't help but feel sorry for charlie brown. >> let me ask about some facts as we know them at this moment. do they feel dpt interior minister and the police in france feel that they are making progress because they know the names of these two brothers are they obviously had an opportunity to talk to their friends and colleagues. they knew something about them even before this incident. is there a sense that they believe they're making progress and that this trail will remain hot. >> well the interior

minister gave a press conference not so long ago am he was very confident. he said we have pores with. we have the means. we have the intelligence to track down these people. we are narrowing the search there is a big operation going on northeast of paris in a town close to the service station where the two men were spotted. he saw two men in balaclavas in a vehicle carrying weapons including extraordinarily a rocket launcher. they robbed the petrol station, tried to make a way with food w cash with petro. there was a big police operation in that area.xd the policeú moved in. the journalists and public are being kept back. though are searching house-to-house for these two men. the last big attack the last attack also described as the deadliest in decades was mu

ham ead merot who killed three security forces in two french cities and ended up killing students and a teacher. it took 11 days to find him. and then when they timely got to the house it was a 31-hour shoot-out. and finally he wasñr killed in the blaze of fire when the security forces moved in. so a it's not clear how long it will take. and once you find them how long it will take to get there because they could take hostages. you just don't know where they are. but they do know a lot about them. in fact, i put it to the interior minister spokesman this morning. i said is this a security laps. -- cherif had been under surveillance already convicted in 2008 for being part of a recruiting ring sending fighters to iraq. they say he is well-known to the authorities. his brother said less well-known. i said well, if he was under surveillance, how was it possible that they could make their way to cha was supposed to be also a media

institution also protected. there has been death threats against these journalists. several themñi haveñi bodyguards. but they were able to get in. where was the surveillance. and the interior minister spokesman said well it's too soon to say whether there was a security laps. we don't know whether the surveillance had actually been diminished of late because it's what they say about paris about london about washington about new york. you can't possibly put someone behind everyone. you may have a suspicion b that you have a file. it's simply not possible. but the investigation is just beginning. it may be a long time. they say this is the biggest investigation in french history. hundreds of police officers are on it. 88,000 security forces police and soldiers have been mobilized for this massive manhunt. and for what is in the parisian region the very highest of the security alerts. >> rose: lyse i can't thank you enough, you are one of

may favorite people and i thank you very much for sitting late in paris after an exhausting day and taking time to talk to me and my audience here and around the world. so it's a great pleasure to have you on the program. >> it's an honor to be-- i'm usually part of your audience so it is very nice to be part of your program. and as you know charlie, there are moments where you feel it's privilege to be a journalist because are you able to come to these moments and to be part of a moment which is a very profound a defining moment in a country's history. and it resonates not just across france but indeed right across the world. >> rose: thank you for helping us understand that and i hope to see you soon lyse doucet from paris the bbc chief chief international correspondent. we'll be back in a moment with john miller. >> rose: joining me now is john miller. he is a deputy commissioner of intelligence and counterterrorism at the new york police department. i am pleased to have him here at this table. welcome sir.

>> good to be here charl-year. >> rose: so what do we know? and what does it tell us? >> what we know is you had two possibly three individuals who were on a mission, and the mission was killing. and charlie when you look at that video tape and you see, you know they go into the newspaper office. and if they've done their homework, and they most likely did they understand that there is two police officers assigned there to protect it. so they factor that in that they're going to take on armed resistance am they shoot at the police. they systemically go through the building until they find the people they're looking for. >> rose: and call them out did they? >> i think all you what have to do and this is speculation on my part s go to the mast head and see who is in charge of the art department who is the sa)q==9ist, and so on. and pick who you are looking for. so let's assume they did their minimal preintelligence gathering am but they systemically killed the pem they were looking

for and others. and when you follow them through their escape you see they run a little bit but sometimes they slow down to walk. they're very efficient. they're very business like. they realize that mission one was to kill. mission two was to escape. and you will see that they even stop in mid escape to go execute a police officer and i have the condolences of the new york city police department, to our good friends and partners in the french national police and paris preaffect of police where we have a deckive assigned. and we work with them every day. but they stop and they actually shoot that officer. and then they go about resuming their getaway. so they understand mission one is about murder. you see even one of them calmly stops and picks something up off the ground. it appears maybe to be a magazine that fell out of the car for his weapon. and he gets back in the car. and they drive away. so this was this was well

planned unfortunately well executed. and if you watch their demeanor probably people who trained with firearms likely overseas probably fought in one or more theatres, whether this was iraq or in yemen or in another place. but it was clear that these were not people who were having their first experience either shooting at people killing people or encountering people shooting back. >> or had an operational plan that they were executing. >> yes. and what do we know sense then about who they were specifically since we know their names. >> well we know the right questions. which is now that we know who they are, we need to know where they've been. and we need to know who they know. from the public record standpoint we understand that both of them have surfaced in prior investigations. one of them has been carged in a case.

and been monstered by police. those were associations with individuals. one was a plot to break someone out of jail. that person was involved in a 1995 bombing of the paris metro. that would have been when one of these two brothers who were the suspects was 12. so they are a secretary generation in a growing terrorist problem that first plagued europe and now radiates back from syria. >> rose: i want to talk about all that. but let me just stay with them at this particular point. what if you had known or what if the nypd today not-- had the same information about someone from your own intelligence gathering, which you are ahead of. what would you have been doing with those two individuals? >> carlie it's not a what if. it's a-- it is an as is. so if you go back through

not distant history, you will see the case of the individual who lived in washington heights who the nypd was investigating for a period of a couple of years who very quickly turned from virulent speech about violence to building up a pipe mom. and it was because there was intelligence collection that was long-term on this individual that when he stopped speaking of violence and turned to violence, the nypd was properly positioned to arrest ho a pimintel as he was making the device through a complex undercover operation. there was a gentleman named nafiz who was detected by the joint terrorism task force which is made up of fbi agents other federal agents and nypd detectives where he wanted to construct a massive bomb and put it in front of the federal reserve bank. he put it there and he

dialed the phone number to make it go off through its cellular detonater. and then he was placed under arrest. so this isn't a what if. this happens. and we have been targeted in new york city a number of times before 9/11 and since 9/11 by active terrorist operations. the thing that keeps you up at night is not what am i going to do with the case where i have some controlling features and i am managing an investigation where a suspect is driving a plot. the thing that keeps you up at night is what about the person we followed around for a long time, and determined well, he's all talk, or he's to the going to do it, or we don't have time to follow him any more. and they turn around and they do something. that would be the experience in the boston marathon bombing case where they fully investigated one of those individuals and determined well, there was fog going on there. an there wasn't at the time they looked at him. but he turned to violence

fairly quickly after that. that would have been the case in a number of these things. >> rose: so what we have learned from this particular case will it change anything? >> everything that happens like this we study on the parameters of let's look at this a couple of ways. the bad guys, what did they intend to do. how did they plan it how did they execute how did they perform. the good guys how did they anticipate this or not. how did they respond, how did they execute wa, can we learn. what can we learn to plan against the bad days from how they did it and whether they succeeded or failed. what can we learn from ourselves about how we performed and how we could do itçó better the next time. so from this ways what you what you learn is that paris is new york and new york is london and that any major metropolis on the globe that is on the other end of this

propaganda that's being targeted by groups like al qaeda is vulnerable in a free and open society to a walk-up attack like this. what you also learn specifically from this attack is a question you have to ask yourself. which is if the attackers knew that there was armed police, there were armedñi police posted aái thisñi location, and that did not stop them you haveñr to look at well at all the places we have armed police, do we need to rethink a part of this. >> in terms it of how to back them up or in terms of not having them there? >> well you can't have an armed police post at every potential location for a threat in a free society because every location is a potential threat. >> so it seems to me the biggest weapon you have is intelligence. the best weapon we have is intelligence. the biggest weapon we have is response. the best because your goal is to prevent it. and intelligence is going to help you prevent if.

but if you miss it -- >> the big cess response. >> well, the biggest is response because you have to have the ability to respond to something like this quickly death leand with overwhelming force. one of the advantages we have in new york city is we have over 400 people in the emergency service unit. who aren't waiting in quarters for a call to come out for an emergency. they are patrolling the streets. they're everywhere. their response time is very short. we have 35,000 police officers. we have an active shooter protocol that many of them have been trained through, about how to engage immediately in these things. so we have that. we have a thousand people encounter terrorism. we have an overwhelming capability in terms of response. we have an extraordinarily well thought out and complex strategy when it comes to intelligence and that's the

prevention piece. you can't get by with one and not the other. you need them both. >> but what is the response on it to respond to what you found out or-- or to respond to-- a situation after it happens? >> a situation while it is happening. >> while it is happening. >> because i think you need to look at each one of these. we study everything, you know. we've looked at everything from the columbine shooting to the newtown shooting to -- >> boston marathon. >> terrorist bombings to the boston marathon to the-- each thing we look at, we say well, when we plan an event what is the complex counterterrorism overlay the scene and the unseen the intelligence the preventive, the response. and when you have super bowl come to giant stadium and you've got super bowl boulevard on times square that overlay gets extraordinarily layered and complex. and expensive. >> what's the level of communication and cooperation at this moment between nypd and french police. >> we have a detective who is assigned to the french

police. he has been there for a number of years. and he has developed the relationships. and it was an extraordinarily effective yesterday and today to be getting information in realtime. i've also been very careful about not sharing that kind of information and these kinds of encounters. because that is for operational awareness. but it's been extraordinary helpful for us in terms of planning our response to this. which is what locations are we protecting. what kind of equipment are we protecting them with. what kind of equipment is fear by that needs to be called in. what kind of personnel are we using. what is the threat stream telling us. what do we know today that we didn't know yesterday. and for a city like new york that is critical critical information. >> what do we do to make sure to try to lessen the chance that young men and women will be motivated to do this? >> charlie, i would say to

flag that that might be the most important question that we ask today. and that is we need to find a counternarrative. right now i would compare the propaganda machine of isis with any madison avenue advertise iting agency. they understand how to play on the emotions. they understand how to contain the message. they understand how to package it in a way that is compelling. and that is reaching a large number of people. that's why we have americans who are are going to syria to fight for isis. that's why they have people streaming there from europe. that's why they have turned them around and sent them back home to launch attacks. >> to do things like maybe happened here even though it might have been yemen rather than isis. >> or the individual who shot up the jewish museum in brussels. and you know when he was stopped he had his ak-47 that he used in that attack wrapped in the isis flag. so we have seen this start to come back. but the reason the question

is so important is, and i have met on a number of occasions and i'm continuing to meet with the core leaders of the muslim community on a national level and in new york city to say we need to have that other set of compelling voices. who can package the counternarrative that says you know what they have put together here in terms it of the isis message, the al qaeda message the terrorism narrative, is a carefully arranged set of half truths with a lot of fact its left out. it's a compellingtion but we need responsive leaders to be hammering home that it's not true. they've said it. they've said it early. they have said it often. but what they haven't done is found their anwar alaki the anti-alacki that carr is matic spokesman that ability to package videos reaching the 15i78 people on youtube and facebook that the other videos are

reaching. and one of the challenges is when you're talking to religious leaders that's not the business they are in. so i think we need to work together to figure out how to get those voices out there. >> where is the investigation today? has it been confirmed that they stopped at the service station? has it v in their escape that they're within a certain prescribed area? >> i can't get into the information that the french police are supplying us because that's their operational information. it's their case. >> all right. >> i think what we can go by is what's been reported in open sources that they have escaped they have had encounters along the way. and that there is a massive man hunt going there. >> so what does that tell us? i think there are striking similarities between the boston marathon bombers and these attackers and that they clearly had a detailed

plan going into their action. where they understood they would potentially be captured perhaps be killed. but they didn't have a detailedçó planñi going out of it. because what we're seeing is in boston you know, they robbed a guy and carjacked him. you know, they cobbled together the last of their bombs and put together a spontaneous plan to drive here to new york. in this case we see a gasñr station robbery, the shooting of a policewoman, a carjacking of a car, a number of things that may, and you know, the first story is never right. but may be connected to this that really suggest they didn't have a detailed back end plan. and that escape and survival was not their first priority. >> prirlt meaning that they were prepared or felt they might be killed on the scene. >> i think what they accounted for was they needed-- the thing they planned the most for was the killing part of their mission. >> rose: carrying out the mission within the thing that they took less care with was the back end. now why is that? is it because they assumed they would be captured or killed before they got that

far? there is an old-- this goes back to hamas and black september, but it is called a fatain mission it is not a suicide mission though you are more likely to be killed or not, the mumbai attackers was that it comes with the possibilities. let's say the 20% possibility will you survive and 15% possibility are you going to escape. and if you can do that after you've done whatever terrible things you are supposed to do, you know, you can take that out. and it appears that may be what is happening here. >> rose: i would assume if you had the names of people and you know how to do good police work we know an awful lot about them at this stage. we know who their friends are. we know who they know.ñi we know what they have been told. we know what they have claimed. we know who might have had influence on them. >> i think there would be particularly in the individual who was lacked at before investigated before charged before, of the two brothers, what you are to the doing here is you are not starting from scratch. there's already a file so

the where somewhere on this individual and his associates, probably including his brother so that that gives them a big head start. because the beginning of the work is already done. and i think as we see in these case, in the boston marathon bombing in the murder of two police officers here in new york in the hatchet attack on police officers back in october, in the incident that other day where two other officers were shot you exploit every tool at your disposal. licence plate readers video cameras, cell phone records towers. you drag it allñi in. and your first order of business is to capture them. and your second order of business sometimes simultaneously is to figure out who else and what next if there is a who else. and if there is a what next. >> would you assume there is? >> i think you always go into it assuming there is because you have to. and when you can he lame

lame-- eliminate that possibility where you see in the case of the individual who wentñi on 270 searches from his computer to al qaeda and isis web sites and then attacked our officers with a hatchet, which is what some of the sites were suggesting we spent an inordinate amount of time very quickly determining were there others, was he directedded because we had to eliminate that question. and the answer turned out to be no. but in another case it might turn out to be yes. >> we talked in the morning program this morning about the idea of the significance of going to yemen. because at first response because there had been a cartoon about baghdadi the head of isis or isil people thought there must be a connection here. now they're seeming to believe because of yemen and al qaeda yemen that these are different people than the people who are carrying out isis. >> so i think as they examine the travel records and they figure out well were they in syria.

if they were in syria were they with isis or with al nous ra which would be the al qaeda side. were they in yemen. i think that the specter of.;=sqgg what it raises charlie is that is the headquarters ofñr aqap oral quitea of the arab yan peninsula. the significance isñi the al qaeda headquarters really gave the ticket o aqap and said your job is to attack the west. your job is to launch attacks against western europe for the-- . >> rose: who al zawahiri. >> yes bin laden first, the reason it was aqap because al-- al qaeda in the arabia-- arabian pen insurancia-- in the ungoverns spaces in yemen the core group that was formed was, these were the saudis who were the original al qaeda members some of whom are old enough to have fought in afghanistan against the russians, and later againsted united states who formed bin

laden's core group relatives cousins, but brothers in arms. and these are the people he trusted the most. and that is lakely why he gave them the assignment of being the external operations peace for al qaeda, to say you know we'll try to keep the organization together, but you plot attacks. >> rose: so regardless whether it is he comes from al qaeda in the aianian peninsula. >> i wouldn't underestimate that though if this isñr two individuals, we done know this yet. but if it turns out they were in yemen and they were with aqap. >> rose: we don't know that yet. >> i don't think we know that to the amount of certainty. i think that is one angle we're looking at. but i think if we get to the place that we know they were directed by aqap this is an attack by al qaeda against a u.s. ally, a western country. >> rose: just like 9/11 was. >> and a free society. and it's an attack against

free speech, to the against a government building, because you know france participated in some military coalition. >> rose: not against a subway. >> against free speech. >> rose: and that's the first time we have seen that even though we have had because of what people said fat what is. >> i mean i think if you look at the danish newspaper that published what was regarded as the most offensive cartoon against muhammad, the plot that was uncovered there was directed or operationally supported by an individual in[o chicago who is part of a terrorist group in pakistan. and the idea was to go into the danish newspaper that had published this cartoon to make the entry by pretending to be there to purchase a classified aad, to then let the others in take hostages behead them, toss the heads out the window on live television. >> rose: this was the plan. >> this was the plan.

and to hold that ground, with the fullçóñiçó intent that they would kill everybody inside or die when the police stormed the building. but to hold that ground for as long as possible for the simple yfd holding global attention. it is a hostage drama. it's unfolding, it would give them two or three days as we saw recently in sydney of saturated live television coverage that would generate fear at other newspapers, in other free societies. and that plot ultimately was not carried out to. the people involved in it were tracked down and convicted here, one in the united statesment but i think that gives you a snapshot of what goes on in the planning rooms of a terrorist organization. and does it accentuate the idea that there may be a clash of civilization, even though the people perpetuating this have no claim to be good muslims? >> i think that islam, and

this is not new is being tested about the voices that will carry the day. and that's part of the discussion we have with muslim leaders in new york city. it was part of the discussions i had with them in washington when i worked at the fbi. which is how do we get-- how do we get the largest voices to be the loudest voices. >> rose: are you worried about a rise in anti-muslim violence? >> whenever you have something like this, i think if you look at the past 24 hours in paris in france you can see four separated what appear to be anti-muslim attacks training grenades thrown into a mosque shots fired at a prayer center an explosion at a halal restaurant. those are angry reactions that are every bit as bad as the terrorism that they intended to crush. >> rose: in circumstances

like this are there certain police rules that if you don't capture them in the first 24 hours 48 hours it will be much much more difficult? >> i think if you don't capture them almost immediately once they're identified, it gives them more time to run more time to hide. but i-- . >> rose: change identity. >> i go back totem wasee bombings. i go back to the first world trade center bombing here in 1993. they caught every one involved in that. and they went to the four corners of the world to do it. and fbi agents stood in south africa dressed in a disguise asñi a south african immigration agent and walked up and down the line where a suspect who might have been there under another identity would have had to come by a certain date to renew his visa and managed to pick him off and toss him on an airplane to new york city and charge him federally in

this country. so you can catch him on the first day because faster is easier. but as we learned from our experience with osama bin laden you can run but you cannot hide, not forever. >> rose: may i turn to the question of new york and just so the other issues we have had about police and pro tests which you because of the responsibilities you have as the deputy commission part are we making progress in terms of communications? >> i think we are. i think the ideañi tfiá there has been a meeting between the union leaders and the mayor and his people and their people and that that meeting didn't dissolve into an argument but turned into a discussion about how to have a better dialogue, is a stepñi one. i think that there was a meeting yesterday in police headquarters with all the union leaders and the police commissioner and his senior staff to talk about ways going forward is a good second step. so the first step in managing any problem is are

we talking about it and are we talking to the right people. so that's the right direction. >> rose: and on batt sides people want to make sure that they're making progress or is there more of a sense of, you knee i will come in screaming and kicking but i really don't want to it be here because i believe the other side is beyond reprehensible? >> i have been around cops my whole life. and what i have learned about them working with them in more than one police department an covering them as a reporter, and socializing with them since i was a boy, is that what they want more than anything is to be cops. sow what we're going through here, what we're going through here is an emotional time. they feel beat up for a whole bunch of reasons. many of which are veiled. and then there is some politics involved which always complicates things. but at the end of the day they want to go catch bad guys. they want to do enforcement. they want to make the city

safer. and here's one other rub charlie. this is a new generation of police officers. these aren't my father's cops. fully 50% of them live here in new york city with their families. they can't not police this city because they live here too. and so do their wives and so do their children and so do their brothers and zuses ters and moms and dads. so i think what we're going through is something where they've tried to make a statement. but i will tell you the second thing which is i'm out in the car every night. and as i go from place to place the police radio is on in the background. and i go on some of those calls. and what i am hearing is if there is a burglary in process, if there is a robbery happening, if there is a victim in the street that needs help they're going to that with every bit of speed and force as they were before this before this perceived slowdown. so they're getting the core job done. there's all the other parts of policing that may not be as exciting or as much fun.

and that's parking tickets and speeding tickets and quality of life crimes which are essential in commissioner bratton's theory of reducing overall crime. and we've seen a slowdown there. but i think the conversation about how to move past this has started. >> so the conversation that moved past it has started. it's not getting deeper it's getting -- >> well, i think we're at a place where some of those activities are very low. but i think the discussion about okay here's where we are. how do we get from here to there. and how do we get from there to the next place. i think that conversation is started. >> where would you characterize where the mayor is his head. >> i think the mayorñi is certainly on a-- you have to look at it on a couple of levels. number one here is a mayor who came into the lowest crime numbers in the history of new york and everybody said watch crime's going to

go up. and then he delivered the lowest lowest crime numbers in the history of new york. so on one hand i think he's come to learn that he is the mayor of the city that has the most effective police department possibly on the planet earth. that's a good thing. on the other hand, i think the mayor is dealing with you know h what did they say in the movie cool hand luke i think what we're seeing here is a failure to communicate. i think his statements are being interpreted by some in the worst possible light. >> rose: and perhaps he could have said it better. >> and perhaps he could have said it better. and i think that that you don't have to love the mayor to be an effective policeçó department. at the end of the day, they signed up to be cops for a reason. they want to do the job. and i think i think that as the conversation goes

forward, people will say the right things people will hear the right things and we'll get past this opinions thank you for coming. >> thanks for having me. >> john miller nypd deputy commissioner head of intelligence and terrorism. i thank him very much for coming. he's been a very very busy man, thank you for joining us. see you next time. >> for more about this program and earlier episodes, visit us yen line at pbs.org and charl-year rose.com. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

>> i think ultimately what we are being paid to do is just inhabit a psyche for a certain amount of time and play that out. play that meditation out. and how to do that. i'm constantly curious about how, what that process is. and refining it. and like you said every character is different. every single one that you play requires different parts of yourself. >> i could trust him to do anything and it was never out of the world of the character it was never just to be different and fun it was i had to it be present because he was so present. i mean oscar isaac, michael shanon, al pa china sean penn, those are those actors that you show up, you have to be in the moment present because if will you thinking about how you going to say your lines or what you are goinging to have for lunch or if it's too cold it's gone. and you haven't been there. >> whenever the presidency occurred to me what also occurred to me at the same time is i'm governor. how do i reconcile that with being governor. and as i look back on it if

i wanted to be president what i should have done is not run for governor in 1990 a third term. and that is what my son and some other people recommended. because they said get out of here you know the recession is coming. you know better than anyone what is going to happen you the city will be in trouble the state, are you going to get killed because everybody incumbent get out now, if you want to do something think about running for president. i decided in 1990 against their advice. that no, no no, the state is going to be in trouble. the city is going to be in trouble. that is the time to it be governor and for me to say i was the most popular governor in history, i am going to quit that way before the real storm comes that makes me feel indecent. >> i should be here when the trouble comes having said

yes, having won in 1990, that eventually made it impossible in my mind to run 1992. and so yes, it did occur to me. >> . funding for charlie rose has been provided for the coca-cola company supporting this program since 2002. american express additional funding provided by-- and bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide

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