good evening from los angeles, i'm tavis smiley. tonight a conversation with oscar-winning actress, director, writer, and humanitarian, angelina jolie. her latest film is "unbroken" which chronicles the heroic struggle of olympic champion louis zamperini to survive a world war ii p.o.w. camp. it's garnering reviews and will be among those honored as award season gets underway. we're glad you're with us. our conversation with angelina jolie coming up right now. ♪

>> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. angelina jolie, second foray into directing "unbroken," telling the true story of american olympic hero louis zamperini after his plane crashed survived on a raft only to face years in a japanese prison camp during world war ii. it was a harrowing experience to say the least that tested every bit of his stamina and humanity and is brought to life with tender loving compare and compassion by angelina jolie's direction. we'll start with a look at a scene from "unbroken" starring

jack o'connell as louis zamperini. >> look at me. look me in the eye. >> i was whispering when the clip was running how much i hated this officer because he

was so evil in this film. and i was asking her how difficult is it to get an actor, that's what actors do, of course, but to summon whatever you have to summon to play something that is so reprehensible. you were telling me about this guy. >> yes. i think he's so extraordinary. he was a rock star. we stalked him and asked him to audition. he did. he's a spiritual person and has two little kids. very, very loving human being. he hates to play violence, hates to be violent. i think that's what makes his extraordinary in the film. as much as you hate him, he's a complex -- he comes across -- he's pained and conflicted, and there's something wrong with him. it's not as simple as somebody who gets off on hitting people. there's a deep pain and -- and i think, in fact this real man, watanabe, he was sick. something of wrong with him to behave that way. >> how does one give direction to an actor to be that ugly?

that reprehensible on camera? >> what's beautiful, we talked about the film and what the messages of the film were. he understood that his part was to not represent japan because that character doesn't represent japan. but to represent the opposition and the aggression and the anger and violence that louis would then rise up against. he knew that the harder he threw down against him, the more it would matter for louis. he met louis and cared about him and spent time with him. so i think he knew -- he took seriously as a professional this is his job. his job was to go to the ugliest, darkest place he could find within himself. he told me -- you can't tell an actor where they find that. you tell them what they have to accomplish. he told me he thought about if someone tried to kill his family. and it's why he was -- he had -- i think it was so painful for

him to play this. he would get in a sweat and -- because to be that -- to think about that, to meditate on somebody hurting your family in order to bring up that emotion. especially if you're not a trained actor is very difficult. >> i want to go inside, deep inside in a second. let me back up for a second. i am curious, i'm glad -- i love the two choices you made to date for directing that we've seen. i know there's other stuff in the works. we'll talk about that later, who knows. for the two things you brought us, i love the choices that you made. i am fascinated by what it is that fascinates you about the dehumanization of war. you've done this twice now. what is it? >> it's hard -- you analyze yourself. you don't know why you're drawn to the stories. i imagine it's partly because of my work with the u.n. for

over 12 years and see people affected by war. and i see what conflict does to the human spirit. in telling stories -- we tell stories so we can learn about ourselves and each other. so war brings out the worst and the best in people. these extreme situations. what i find interesting to me is that what's different about the films is if you look at them in order, they grow, i think, in a positive way. the first film of really analyzing how -- film was really analyzing how people in the war in yugoslavia who could be friends and lovers, get to a place where they could kill each other. how that takes over. and "unbroken" the is about taking all that pain and all that ugliness and how you rise up above it and not let it bring you down or bring to you the place where the first film left off. maybe it's that journey of me

trying to understand these aspects of human nature and -- and i think, of course, you don't study history, as they say, you're doomed to repeat it. we must look at these histories and understand the -- you know, what happened, why, and yes, this is a war film. but this is also a film about man. >> yeah. >> and a little boy that didn't think he was worth anything. a little immigrant kid got beaten many times, smoking and stealing and drinking by the time he was 9. only became a runner because he ran from the cops so much. >> yeah. >> and it's a nice message i think for people. it's why we made it pg-13. for young teens to -- who think that they're not really -- they're not special. you don't have to be special. you find your own best. >> yeah. >> and you face a challenge, and that's good. >> to your point, it is pg-13. there are tender moments in the piece.

there's funny stuff. there's moments here and there -- >> thank you. nobody's pointed that out yet. >> funny stuff in it. and yet these two choices you made to start for your directorial debut are tough things to -- what i'm getting at is not that directing or producing any movie is easy, but you really went for the tough stuff. you didn't go for the low hanging fruit. >> thank you. >> i can only assume that you weren't scared by that. >> i think you got to go where you're scared. >> scared of doing something this big? >> i did not anticipate something this big. if somebody said, the last time i was on the show, if you said, what's the next thing you want to do, i would say character based, something like this. i would never say i want to take on racists and plane crashes and shark attacks -- never, ever.

and i would never have assumed i could. i just loved this particular story and this man. so i convinced the studio i could do this before i was of sure myself i could do this. we had a great team and worked hard. there was a lot to learn technically. and what a great challenge. what a great opportunity. >> i talked to steven spielberg one time. spielberg told me advice for young filmmakers when they're starting out is don't do anything with water, children, or animals. you have all three. i thought that was funny. angelina did everything spielberg said not to do in your directorial debut. >> that's funny. >> i was tickled by what he said and about all three. tell me the story of how you came to do this project. again, i was tickled reading the research about the proximity of -- >> yeah. >> you know what i'm getting at? >> yeah. yeah. i'm just as surprised -- >> funny story. i loved it.

i was looking for something to do. they give you open director assignment. it was three sentences, i mentioned to brad. he said, honey, that's been around a long time. turns out since 1957. >> yeah. >> i met on it and donna langley said, you know, an interesting take. why don't you read -- really read this book, it's great. regardless, read the book. i obviously loved the book. halfway through i was so inspired. i realized this is what was missing. like all the people that read it, i needed louis' story and want to learn from it and get the messages. i thought that's what you should do tell the story and spread the message. that's what you love. i said, is he alive? is he around? where does he live? they said, well he knows where you live because we just called him. he said that his wife before she passed away used to try to see

brad with her binoculars. so they were above us. you know, then the hill -- and so he was -- really, my bedroom, where i lay in bed is a window. and out that window i can see his living room, where he sat every day. and we thought about this later. he must have sat there for how many years, at least a good eight years we were there near each other. wondering who's going to make a film and me wondering what i'm supposed to be doing. and there it was. when i told him i got the job, that doesn't mean we have a green light. that's the money and -- that means you really get to make the movie. he said, you know, you better hurry up, girl. i said, okay, when i get the green light, i'll fly the flag. you'll see the flag on the roof. he used to sit.

and then months later, we got the green light. and i couldn't race home fast enough. so i called brad, and brad and pax put the flag up. >> that is amazing. literally in your back yard. >> yeah. his grandson lives there now. >> are they the only people forgiven for trying to look at you through binoculars? >> absolutely. by the way, by the end he and i were both with binoculars standing out there. it's how we say good night. >> he passed away earlier this year. >> yes, he did. >> how much of this did he get to see? >> most of it. >> he saw the whole thing? >> yeah, yeah. we didn't have the effects and certain things, but -- >> he thought what? >> you know, it's the funniest thing.

people ask me because -- louis was 97, and he was living on his own. doing a speaking engagement two weeks before he went in the hospital. i say that because he had so much pride on going out on his feet. and i was in the editing room when they told me he had gone into the hospital. i got the film on the laptop and went. and i thought he's going to tell me whether he think it's good or -- and then, of course, something else happened because this isn't a person who wants to review or is even looking at a movie. i had the privilege of sitting with this extraordinary man. the end of his days with him as he reflected on his whole life. and as his body of failing, he was looking across the finish line and rise up against obstacles. he was remembering his mom and brother and -- so he didn't -- he just held my hand. we looked at each other.

there was maybe too much to say. and then he told me a funny joke which i've never told anyone. i told lori, she knows. but he, true to louis, very italian man, sent me out of the room with an inappropriate -- something inappropriate and funny. and i left realizing, on top of it, he took care of me. he didn't want me to cry, and he said something funny. >> this had to have a greater impact on you than feeling good about the fact that you had done a film that he thought was okay. there's a human connection here. am i making sense? how do you process that you got a chance to do this good work? but this -- >> it's still hard for me. it's hard to sit here -- i see the posters around town of him holding up the plank. and i don't see -- i don't see my film that i directed. i see my friend and that moment where he held the plank up for 37 minutes.

and his will, and i -- i'm so -- i just, i love him, and i'm proud of him. and i say that and it -- i miss him, you know. fortunately i'm close to his family and love them. but i miss him. i didn't want to finish the edit. when i came back from the hospital, i didn't edit for a while. actually put my jacket over my head and turned off the lights. and i refused to cut a frame of his life. suddenly every moment of his life of so precious. how can cut a second of his brother or something -- >> you make a five-hour movie. >> it's hard. and i -- i closed it late until somebody sat me down and said, "you have to let him go." but i don't know. yes, it doesn't feel like putting a movie out. it feels like making sure the world knows the legacy of the extraordinary person who is finally after a long life at

rest and peace. and it's our job to make sure that his message is strong. >> i love the film. adored it. told people to go see it. i was curious as to your choice about the way you chose to close it. and my question has to do with -- so much of the story for me has to do with the forgiveness part. his going back. we see that at the end, but you close it in a way that we got that, but it wasn't a part of the story. >> it's something we all worked -- it's one of the reasons it's taken 60 years to make the film. you can't in ten minutes wrap up ptsd and finding faith. it's almost more disrespectful. we made sure that what's that part of his life -- and we did this was with louis. this wasn't without louis. this of with him. we talked about faith and it

being universal and reaches all people. what is it that we can say true his faith and also family's faith. and -- we realized we kept putting it on like trying to tie it into the final hour. we realized what it is, this is a part of his life since he's a little boy. and this need to be present in the film in every moment of the film. so from the time he's a little boy looking at christ on the cross to the time he sees phil praying, or we represent it with light and darkness. there was shadows or there was sun, the sunrise. and i think that was our way of discussing god. he's always there. it when he chose to feel it, when he became aware of it. he makes his prayer on the raft, and he hears about forgiving your enemy but doesn't know what that means until the end. so in the end we use the plank not only as a show of will and

strength but also the light inside of him and that there was something between these men that was so -- so profound and spiritual in a way. they saw each other. wasn't just about winning. it was about being present and seeing your fellow man. so that was the best way to get it across. >> yeah. and i was trying to figure out. this -- because i read the book and knew the story. how she going close this? there's so many different ways. >> you could do a whole movie on the raft. you, do a whole movie on his life at home and bird in hiding. you could do -- >> did the close cause you a particular kind of grief or frustration that the rest of the film didn't? you could go so many different directions at the end. >> sure. the plank itself doesn't happen in the final day. like it's all -- when the coen

brothers came on, they said at some point i decided i was going to do a miniseries. can't do it. but what -- what they taught me is, you know when you put a book down, you have a certain feeling. and you received a certain message. and that's the same thing -- you have to make a great film and feel that the audience gets that message and think. it's goodwill, faith, fellow man, family. all of those things, endurance. and that comes however's constructed best for a film. there is -- fortunately there's laura's book. >> you mentioned the plank scene a couple of times which is just arresting in so many ways. i was exhausted when that scene finally ended. exhausted in a loving way. i was so -- it did to me what

you wanted to do. it worked. but i wondered when i walked out of the screening whether or not in that scene or any other, certainly that scene, are there moments when you, the director, where you look around and see people who are just fighting to hold it together? >> and not break down? they did break down. a few times. i think it's because they were young men, too. such young men often thinking about having every day not only physically endure what they had to endure but being physically conscious of the men who came before them. they thought a lot of the -- the grandparents. most had their grandparents' picture in their pocket or cell bunk. and in the plank it was very difficult for both men. they were -- blacked out a few times trying to hold it up. and one threw up because he felt so physically ill doing it. it was very -- it sounds crazy, like the worst directing in the world. he's getting sick.

but it brought up so much. and also, you know, just the exercise. if anybody tried it at home -- the exercise of just staring unflinching at another person and letting them see you and being open to them and receiving who they are and letting them see you is one of the most difficult things. it does bring up something. it changed them both on that day. they responded in an unusual way. >> i will say it -- i think respectfully that it's not about bad directing. it's about -- if human beings who are depicting the scene that's happened in real life don't feel something visceral, then you haven't done good directing. that's the way i see it. >> that's true. that's true. >> ought to feel something. >> the moment's right, and it's safe and -- you can -- it led up to it. it's not easy to end the big

climax of the movie is not a boxing match, not a fight scene, there's no guns, no nothing. it's really very still. extremely still. it's how every man on the island feels about what's happening. >> let me ask this before time runs out. i am always curious about the juxtaposition that women sometimes face when they get all the accolade that you're getting now for having directed a great film. everybody wants to see it, everybody's talking about it. there's oscar buzz. that's all now. juxtapose how hard you had to fight to get it done in the first place. or did it come easily? >> no, it didn't come easily. i've been in the business a long time and successful but in a totally different field. so to come in and say, you know, you were supportive, and i -- not many people saw it. you know, you wouldn't -- you wouldn't call it not a financial success or anything. you look and say, okay, here's a film of a certain size and responsibility.

and can you do a shark attack, and do you understand how to stay on budget and do the plane crashes? and can you -- so i fought for months really hard. it's interesting. it wasn't fighting because i wanted the job. i really, really was convinced that if i could spend two years of my life walking in this man's footsteps and getting to know him and be near him that it will change me. that i would be better for it. the same feeling people have when they finish the book. i wanted -- i wanted to know that and wanted my children to know. unfortunately, they did. i was -- i felt like i was fighting for much more than a film. >> so you walked me up to the exit question in the minute or so i have left which is how meeting louis and bringing his story to the big screen has fundamentally charged your life. what's the takeaway for angelina? >> i think i will -- i will forever embrace every day of my life differently.

because he taught me that. every time i'm faced with an obstacle, i will remember him and smile at it. and i will know this is an opportunity to grow. it's how i face it that will determine who i am. and -- i think i'll be that much more adventurous and loving with my children because he was that. and know -- always be reminded when i'm feeling very frustrated with the state of the world, all of the darkness that i see, to know that his message is you cannot dwell or focus on it. if you're going to rise up, you focus on what you can change and fight. >> this story, her husband told her when she started thinking about doing this, has been around a long time. it took angelina jolie to bring it to life after all these years. she has done it in a masterful way.

not that you need my recommendation to see anything that angelina has done. i highly recommend you see this. i think you're right that it will fundamentally change you. certainly has me wrestling with my own respect and dignity of old people. -- of all people. it's called "unbroken." if you didn't know it, in theaters everywhere. go check it out. angelina, i'm delighted to have you. >> thank you. >> and that's our show for tonight. thanks for watching. and as always, keep the faith. >> for more information, visit tafssmiley -- tavissmiley@pbs.org. >> join me for a discussion about the return of fleetwood mack.-- of herbie hancock.

that's next time. see you then. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you.

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