looking at what happened and what it mains. i talked with clarissaward and adam gopnik. >> what was a remote threat suddenly became very very real. what keeps coming up is how well organized were these guys when they first appeared, they were hugely well organized highly trained. but it seemed apparent that once they had finished their horrific act they didn't know what to do. >> rose: we(lñsteve brill his book on american healthcare is called america's bitter pill. >> people care more about their health more than healthcare policy. but when you're lying there on the gurney, you're not thinking

about your charge master bill and what the bill's going to look like and what the explanation of benefits from the insurance company is going to look like. as far as you're concerned if the doctor says you need four blood tests and six x-rays and you get it and anything else they tell you need. twhafs driven home to me. for all i write and report about cost and how the drug companies overbill and the hospitals overbills and everybody overbills. the fact is this is an industry that saves people's lives. >> rose: we conclude this evening with an appreciation of former governor mario cuomo who died on new year's day at age 82. >> what do you want to do with your governorship. i want four years after everybody will say no one was more honest than this governor. >> rose: paris healthcare and an appreciation of mario

cuomo when we continue.qe >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> rose: additional funding provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: we continue with our coverage of the attacks in paris. french police sthoarmd two locations simultaneously today killing three hostage takers. two brothers involved in the charlie hebdo attack on wednesday were killed at a

warehouse in the town. french securityzu forces also stormed a kosher supermarket in eastern paris where two gun men were holdingone gun man and four hostages were killed. 26 year old female hostage taker is still at large. some of the attackers are reportedly connected to al-qaedain[ñdeso

in this situation. called the attack. >> the moment -- of the operation provides the support how i need. >> rose: from france clarissa ward from cbs news she's been reporting today about the two brothers who were hostage holders and were killed. here in new york adam gopnik is a staff writer for the "new york" magazine. clarissa you and i were together for four to five hours this morning watching this unfold. look back on it now and tell me what it was, and how you see it with just a little bit of perspective. >> well charlie, it's hard to believe that just a few hours ago, this picturesque sleepy french village was the site of such a major showdown.

it all started at about 9:00 this morning when the two brothers carjacked a car from a woman who recognized their faces from the wanted posters and reported them. they allegedly came here to this village and took over a paper printing factory essentially holding at least one employee hostage. police were trying to negotiate with him, trying to reach out with them. they were not interested in having a discussion but at one point a local french television station actually called the printing company and one of the brothers answered the phone, they had a fairly lengthy conversation. he said that he was funded by anwar alaki who was killed four years ago in drone strike. he also said they weren't going to kill any women or children. what they didn't realize, these two brothers was there was an employee who was hiding inside the building and throughout the

siege he was sending messages to the swat teams and authorities who had surrounded the area. and again charlie, i mean we were talking throughout the day, you know exactly jus5zi&÷ how chaotic the scene was. but there were french security forces all over this place. they had completely locked this village down. all the exits along the highway nearby here were blocked traffic cut off. residents told to stay at home. schools evacuated. really that was an enormous operation, and it went on for almost eight hours before it finally came to that crescendo which of course we saw playing out in the blaze of bullets and grenades as the two suspects were finally killed. >> rose: a couple questions we may not know the answers yet but perhaps. why does they go in when they did? >> well we're actually just learning now, the prosecutor's office here in france just gave a press conference and they said the contrary to initial investigation were the swat

teams were the ones to make the first move. they said it was actually the brothers who around 5:00 this afternoon essentially came out of the door guns blazing opening fire on the police officers and swat team that had surrounded the building. and it was then that the assault police responded with grenades. that's when we heard those explosions and all that gunfire. so it appears that they were the ones who initiated the showdown that precipitated the angst of this siege. >> rose: do we know whether the al-qaeda and westernñpeninsula had any particular action eat in terms of asking for it, ordering it, monitoring it, funding it or anything. >> we're hearing reports now that al-qaeda and the arabian peninsula are claiming that this was their work, essentially. that they had dealtbrothers in coordinating and

executing this attack. but we won't be able to confirm that likely or get the really full picture for quite some days. and even that conversation that one of the brothers had with that french television station where he talks about the yemen and the al-qaeda connection. we haven't been given a full transcript and the television station has only released a few very small portions of that conversation that they had with him. so it's still a very muddy picture. but certainly i think one thing is fair to say charlie. we know now that these men were under surveillance. their first arrest is over a decade ago. there are going to be a lot of questions how it was they were able to plan and execute this massive attack right under the noses of french authorities. >> rose: what do we know about the connection between what happened in the supermarket and what happened at the cartoonist offices. >> we're still learning a bit more about that. we know that the gunman who took

and ultimately killed those hostages, he knew these two brothers and he was reportedly demanding not to end his siege until the two brothers were released. what we don't have a good sense yet how much coordination went, whether these men actively planned these attacks together. >> rose: stay with me. i want to just turn to adam. so you're a man that's well-known in france.bbc during the day. know the french mind, know the3x.4r french soul. from knowing france and paris, reflect on this. >> oh my goodness, where to be, charlie. one part of it is of course is that charlie hebdo the cartoonists who were murdered were outrageous figures in lots

of ways. the magazine they ran was weekly outrage. but the cartoonists were elderly people who are killed were all known by single names to the french population. they were like soccer playerscbrazil. you knew them by one name. they were mature beloved in france even though they were also artists of outrage. so the shock for french public was enormous. what seems like a remote threat suddenly became very very real. the big question a lot of people have been asking back and forth that keeps coming up is how well organized were these guys. when they first appeared, it was as they were hugely well organized highly trained. but it seemed apparent that once they had finished their horrific act they didn't know what to do at all. and they were improvising wildly. i listened to the tapes on television, the tvtalking to these goes and they were boastful but they weren't

persuasive they had this plan. there are peopleb btj in france who say these are kids, hoodlums really at work. so i think -- >>uep owe: they were in their30's. >> they were in their 30's but they come from that background. >> rose: what do we know about them clarissa. early on we all were impressed by the fact that they may very well have thought this through carefully. they knew who they wanted to kill. they were looking for particular people. they had thought this out. yet they seemed to have no exit strategy. >> well charlie generally speaking, when you look at these types of extremists, terrorists attacks, the young men who are usually the perpetrators aren't necessarily looking for an exit strategy. these are for them often martyr admissions. their goal is to be killed at the end of them so they can gain access to paradise. but these two young men weren't necessarily, well let's put it this way. they didn't come from a deeply

religious backgrounds. they were algiereian decent they were orphans, they were more interested in rapping and smoking pot than they were in reading the koran. then it appears around the invasion of iraq that at least one of the brothers embraced a more militant vision of islam and became involved with this recruitment ring that was trying to recruit young muslims to go and fight jihad in iraq against american forces. and that's when he was first arrested by french authorities in 2005 as he was trying to fly out to iraq to join the jihad. >> rose: what do we know about the woman that is reportedly on the7g:+n run. >> we know very very little about this woman. she is reportedly the girlfriend of the gun men who ultimately died at the hostage scene in paris. she was allegedly there throughout it.

at one stage even pretending to be a hostage. but the french police are really keeping pretty tight lipped about any aspect of this investigation or case that's been ongoing. over the past 2350u days we've found a real reluctance understandably given how fluid the situation is, to discuss any of this with the press. >> rose: thank you for joining us. i know it's been a long day and you have even more responsibilities as you leave me. but thank you so much. >> thank you for having me. >> rose: adam back to you in terms of this talk about for me islam and paris. >> it's so complex, right. this happened at the moment of sort of maximum pressures. you know there's a book that's been a huge success in france that in lots of ways is seen by many people as islamaphobic. we can't survive the ways. a novel called submission where

he fantasizes or satterrizes the possibility of taking over the shi'a law within the next ten years. not to be taken literally. but those kinds of fears have been very present. they are, ploitd othe figures on the extrieval right whose whole focus has become the muslim threat. against that of course is the reality of you know the moderate muslim charlie because it sounds so apologetic. the vasion majority of the pop french who are individuals like anyone else with the same appetites for normal life and for bettering their kids. one of the most moving moments of the week i thought was immediately after these horrible murders, the eman muslim collector came to the site of the charlie hebdo murders right across the street and said not only does this have anything to

do with muslim but was meally mouth or appall ject. in islam we counter a drawing with a drawing and wit with wit. you never take blood because of a drawing. it was more categorical. i will pray for these men they are martyrs. that was a positive moment, an opportunity for the vast majority of french muslims whose identity is republican in so many ways to demonstrate it now. one of the fascinating things that i think is going to happen this weekend is there will be this grand march on sunday which looks now will still go forward in which everyone except the front -- has been ha invited to participate. it will be interesting to see the muslim participation in that march in that demonstration. >> rose: do you think this will help political ambitions. >> that's a great question at the moment, charlie. that's one scenario where yes it will help enormously because it

seems to confirm the worst fear there are monitors among us and these guys were monsters. her being excluded from the demonstration from the parade is one of the thing that's been most argued over in my conversations with friends in paris over the day, do you do the right thing by excluding hygienically excluding the extreme right from the parade or do you say to the 25% of the population who don't vote for her we're excluding you we don'trepublican map. that's a devilish question. i would say yes, include her. what you want to do with the extreme right is not simply to ban it but to in a sense to co-opt it to absorb the voters within the great mass of legit must republican sides. but i think that that's the great risk that comes out of this. the other side of it of course is that on the whole despite the horrible blood toll the french

government handled it reasonably well. they got to a result which despite of the horror the four hostages got killed it seemed like the right

there aren't that many people out there in the world who are prepared to commit this kind of atrocity. those things are n ot on the w hole been repeated. that are worse fears about it happening again and again have not come true. and that the worst damage we've done has been the autoimmune(pev damage we've done to ourselves by living in that kind of terry. >> rose: living in a state of siege. >> living in a state of siege.

i saw our mutual friend who had a strong piece this morning where he said what we need is to mobilize ourselves without a patriot act. he used that phrase because it's known in france that the patriot act which seemed like the logical thing to do at the time ended up perverting american values. so -- >> rose: in the "wall street journal." >> no one can guarantee what's going to happen in the future. there could be another tack tomorrow. >> rose: do you fear a class of civillation so to speak. >> no i don't charlie and i never v remember this wasn't 10,000 muslims storming the offices ofxe charlie hebdo and lynching. it was very much like the kids. their profile is very much the profile of the kids in boston if you remember, the tsarnaev brothers. i wonder if there's some peculiar psychology of brothers that enables them to have a kind of feedback on that. no, i don't fear. it wasn'ts÷lynching cartoonists it

was two crazed evil kids prepared to shoot people in the head. >> rose: there's things about this, it's written about all the time. it is this notion on the one(xphand of many many islamic leaders saying there's no such thing as a moderate islam. islam ought to be moderate. it is moderate. anybody who takes the name of islam and does acts like this are not muslims. because the muslims would notuyktz tolerate that. that's the argument. on the other hand, the argument made by some is something's happened in the interpretation by people who have distorted it and have done it in a way that's appealing to the unemployed, the young and people who feela;kñm that they are victims of society. >> radical nationalism throughout the last hundred years has always been appealing

to people who feel disenfranchisedthat's always going to be appealing to people who feel alienated. >> rose: this is not radical nationalism. >> i mean in the sense of the imaginary that would be restored. here's the thing though right. is that one of my favorite expressions of french char lease it possible to count to two and i think we can count to two. you have to be naive not to see that there is a highly militant islamic islamist violent movement stretching back to thekosher delicatessen. i don't mean it's organized from some central jihad organization, i just mean that it has a coherent ideology. but at the same time for the overwhelming majority of the

world's muslim their practice is nothing to do with violence. i think of dear muslim friends we have in france who are the most loving parental people you could possibly find. they're not implicated in this in any way although they are devout muslims. we have to kowdged to two. we have to recognize there is such a thing as islamism and it can be extraordinarily violent and seems to have taken the souls of a number of young muslims. that's one. it has nothing to do request the practice of the great majority of muslims in france or indonesia or the united states. so we can have both realizations at the same time. we don't have to be captive one or the other. >> rose: one point that should be made. this has brought home the idea because of the connection to yemen and al-qaeda on the arab peninsula represents. we have been focused so much on

isil and isis which was a movement about territory on a islamic state. so they were gaining and holding territory including the third largest city in iran, muslims. and that was different. allhj of a sudden there comes a very different brand under the umbrella of terrorism and extreme radical islamic terrorism. yes -- yes men yemen and others who wanted to strike out. >> we heard this in paris. this is a conflict between the iris brand right, and the al-qaeda brand because al-qaeda wants to show no we're still in piss and we're capable of committing atrocities. >> rose: we know there have been tactics among them. >> this is part of the conversation. i'm no terrorism expert but i tend to be skeptical of a notion

there's some jihad central or two jihad gee signals that are making these plans. they are undertaken clearly with some training and some understanding on the part of highly marginalized -- >> rose: if in fact the reports are true, this is the new alarming facts. if in fact one of the brothers did go to yemen and did get training in terms of handling military weapons and the possibility of making bombs and then had a diplomatic passport to come back to france, you know, we know how many young mand women from different countries have gone to the most radical parts of parts of syria and learned those kinds of skills. >> charlie, do you know what, this guy wasn't very well veiled to begin with. he was arrested and imprisoned back when. the french police had him on their screen which touches on a much deeper question and that is what can a free society do. you can't keep everybody under

surveillance all the time. i think someone said that today. this isn't east germany. we can't keep an entire population under daily surveillance from fear they're going to do something violent. on the other hand you see the result of doing it. these are deep questions tied with the nature of having liberal thin. >> rose: thank you for coming. >> thank you. >> rose: back in a moment. stay with us. >> rose: steven brill is here his 2013 "time" magazine cover story was widely praised for sign ag light on the astronomical cost of healthcare in this country. soon after the publication brill himself became a patient. he was diagnosed with a life threatening aortic aneurism that required surgery. that experience helped shape the narrative of his new book. the book is called america's bitter pill. it chronicled the affordable care act. i was conceived and implemented. also considers what impact it will havep< on the healthcare industry going forward.

i'm pleased to have steve brill back at the table. welcome. >> thank you. always good to be here. >> rose: tell me about what happened to you. >> well, as i was finishing the reporting on this book which as you said it's all about how obama happened and what it's going to do. literally on the last day of the enrollment on the insurance exchanges 31 ask march last year. i had gotten a routine check up from my doctor who checked my right wrist my left wrist. sounds a little strange. he had mow do one kind of test on the kind of test. this is at a time when i'm obsessed with our doctors overtesting. what's the cost of all this stuff. i was a little skeptical. long story short by the next day he told me that i had to have open heart surgery. i have literally i don't think ever missed a day of work for being sick so i was in great shape. and he explained that what this is it's a bubble on your heart in effect. and in my case the bubble was

big enough so that i had a 17% chance in any given year of it bursting. and if it burst, i wouldn't even get to the emergency room. so my first response to that was how many people continue this conversation after that. he said you'd be surprised. there are some people say i have this thing i have to do;p next week or something. so i was in the operating room two or three days, and -- >> rose: two or three days of that big. >> my wife and i, we didn't mess around. as i recount in the book, because i was so into writing about healthcare, writing about hospital bills and obamacare i thought i was dreaming when i was in the hospital. because you know when you really get into something you go to sleep you dream bit. that's what i thought this was and it wasn't. it was this horrible mix of reality and dream which i recount in the opening pages of

the book. >> rose: i can't tell you how fearing that was for me to read that. my mother didn't have an aorta but a cerebral aneurism. it was the su4e thing with her. i mean she did not know she'd make it through the night because she had operating schedule for the next day. it's scary and that was a long time ago. they were going to go around almost bypass where the weakness was. >> i started reading after i recovered. before i recovered my wife and i were checking into the hospital. the first thing you do is you meet with the team who was going to do the surgery. there was a team of them which i got my tension. i said why the whole team here. he said we have to keep you alive. we stop your heart, so we keep oxygen and blood or whatever it is going to your brain and your lungs. i said you stop my heart. she said well what do you think

happens when you have open heart surgery, you can't keep your heart going. i felt weak in the knees and i broke into a sweat and that's when it really hit me. >> rose: how did this affect your healthcare cost. >> it brings home something new intellectually. intellectually you and i know healthcare is an emotional issue, healthcare is scary. people care more about their health than healthcare policy. but when you're lying there on the gurney you're not thinking about your charge master bill and what the bill's going to look like and the explanation of benefits of the insurance company's going to look like. as far as you're concerned if the doctor says you know four blood tests and six x-rays, you'll get four blood tests and six x-rays and anything else they tell you need. that was really driven home to me. the other thing driven home to me for all of what i write and report about cost and how the drug companies overbill and

hospitals overbill and everybody overbills. the fact is this is an industry that saves people's lives. >> rose: the do they overbill to make money or overbill out of caution. >> they do both. very conveniently the caution makes them more money. the doctor says just in case i'm going to give you a cat scan because you say you have a headache. that is caution. it could be fear of a malpractice suit because we haven't had the tort reform in this country that we need. it could be excused about tort reform but whatever it is, it as to our costs and we give more cat scans and more mri's in this country by a factor of three or four than any other country in the world. we pay much more for them and our results aren't any better. >> rose: you have said when you looked at it, i want to ask you what is the one thing to learn and you said something to me to the point the healthcare is not a market atkc all. it's a crap shoot you say.

>> just think about your mother's experience, my experience anybody's experience. you don't know what you're buying. you have no idea what it's going to cost. you have no idea whether you need it, you assume you do and you probably do because the doctors are the honest players in this case. when you get the bill you have no idea what it means. when you get your insurance company's explanation of benefits you have zero idea what it mains. and as i recount in the book the ceo of the largest health insurance company of america united healthcare who sent me 36 explanations of benefits when i interviewed him and put one in front of him he couldn't explain it. so that's not a marketplace. you're not a savvy customer when you go to get healthcare. unless you're getting lasix surgery which is purely voluntary or discretionary. you can't judge quality or cost or anything. >> rose: how did we get here. >> we got here through an obscure set of decisions during

world war ii ifaym3 you can believe it, when there were wage and price controls during the war. a bunch of large employers got the idea that well we can't offer higher wagers let's offer healthcare. it was startingoto be expensive because they developed penicillin and drugs and surgery. going to the hospital was more than just lying down and dying. they would actually treat people. so they decided they'll offer health insurance as a benefit. the labor board decided an obscure decision that won't count as a wage increase. the irs also decided that won't count as income. so healthcare was imbedded into the employment context in the united states in the way th-÷aren't in any other country in the world. ironically what that meant was%wiov

in franklin roosevelt when truman said we ought to have a national healthcare the way all these other countries do, one of the leading opposition forces were the unions. the progressive unions because they were offering it as a benefit to their members. they're saying you can't be doing this. that's how we get people to script our union. >> rose: we're paternalistic and we'll take care of you. what is the irony. >> the one irony about obamacare that people don't realize it's a more conservative version of aqey#w plan first proposed by richard nixon. >> rose: a more conservative version. >> rightçb and a much more conservative version of what romney did in massachusetts. what really happened over the years the democrats were pushing and pushing for single payer for medicare for all, government for health insurance. they could get no where and they

gradually got one down and finally with obamacare the democratj5cwhitehouse said okay let's go with the republican planning in essence. let's go with romney. and imagine their surprise when the republicans still opposed it. because it was obama's. and imagine their surprise still more when the way the republicans proposed it, the way the republicans proposed it was saying this is a government takeover of healthcare. it's exactly the opposite. it's the government through the taxpayers paying for subsidies so people can by insurance on the exchanges. it's the government giving the private sector all this money to seven tens of millions of customers. >> rose: what's the best healthcare in the world both in quality of care, access and thirdly cost. >> there are debates, some people say france some people say the uk, some people say canada.

some people say germany. what nobody says is the united states of america. both in terms of results and obviously in terms of cost. >> rose: why]so -- >> once we went down this path of let's keep it in the private marketplace. now, i'm not a lefty but the notion of keeping something like healthcare in the private marketplace just doesn't work. we tried this great experiences all these years now since the 1940's and 50's. let's be the only country in the world that does it this way. and let's have every other country do it that way. what do we end up with? costing 50% higher per capita and results that aren't any better. >> rose: would we have been better off with singer payer. >> it's not something you can do now. you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube in any way shape or form. it wouldso what i propose the end is something sort of radically

different still more republican arguably which is you let the large healthcare systems that are expanding large hospitals that are buying up doctors practices and clinics all over the country you let them expand and you let them compete as brands. you regulate them and you let them sell their own health insurance. what i mean by that is when i went to new york presbyterian hospital and got great care. they saved my life. they have a vast network of clinics and doctors and everything and hospitals all over the city all over the new york metropolitan area. i would rather pay the president of new york presbyterian x thousand dollars a year to be my insurance. you keep me well. i pay united health care and i have to worry who is in my network are they going to allow this treatment or that treatment. and you give the providers, the hospitals, the doctors, the

clinics the incentives to treat me as much as possible so they can bill united healthcare as much as possible. if the insurance company is the hospital, they don't have any incentive to bill themselves. just to regulate them heavily. >> rose: what's the biggest mistake the obama administration mh@wz in terms of creating affordable care act? >> they forgot that part of occupying the whitehouse is governing, for starters. so they and they being the president ignored the advice of larry summers and lots of others saying you got to bring in people from the outside to run this thing or the launch is glowing to be a debacle. that would be mistake number one. mistake number two is, and this may have been enforced by the politics of the situation and i'm sure they would say it was. they never emphasized the fact that this is a giant income

redistribution program that the premiums are really cheap because the subsidies that people get when they go on the exchange are so high. there arerj># subsidies for people making up $92,000 to buy insurance. they were afraid to talk about that and that's why enrollments lagged at the beginning. this health for middle class. >> rose: this is his own personal experience but having talked to people inside and outsize(w the whitehouse and really made?"rthe people who meek up the medical community both patients as well as hospitals, as well as pharmaceutical companies and certainly doctors. america's bitter pill.

>> rose: governor mario cuomo was laid to rest, he was a talented lawyer and eloquent public speaker. he passed away on new year's day. the same day his oldest son andrew was sworn in for second term of governor. mario cuomo was a frequent guest on this program both during and after his time in public office. over the years we had conversations about politics, his legacy and the importance of the government's role in america. he was born the son of an eye taleient immigrant in queens new york. he graduated at the top of his class in law school. in those days no major firm wanted to hire someone with his last name. he told me in 1995 it was an experience he never forgot. i want you to mention this without putting you on the couch. you came your father august was his name. what was your father's name.

>> andre. >> rose: he ran a grocery store. >> he was a ditch2v digger before that and then grocery store. >> rose: got out of law school suma com laud. they didn't want someone with the name mario cuomo. that's always been with you where i came from. in a positive sense but also in a negative sense. >> no that's true charlie. you know i remember saying something really stupid in my few days actually of governor in 1983. what do you want to do with your governorship. i said i don't want to have four years after which people will say no one has ever worked harder and no one was ever more honest than this guy here. he said why.

because of the stereotype of italian americans. it's so dis gusting to me. i'm the first e lacked italian american in the state as governor. i want to show them how upright and honest, eye -italians everywhere were disgusted at me. and they were right. it was too defensive. that was anva unfortunate thing i said. but i am mindful of my background but it expresses itself far beyond me. when i go back to south jamaica i see this kid two and-a-half out in the streets surrounded by pimps and prostitutes and all kinds of disorientation. in a society that looks at that child who is black or latino or whatever and poor. and concludes all kinds of stereotypical things like

there's no point in trying to help him. they're not as smart as we are. when i start reading books by intelligent presumably intelligent people who are being read byaa intelligent businessmen who ask me at a meeting what about this, this study that says you know the blacks are intellectually inferior. i hear that in new york state and my only answer to the guy is are you kidding? do you believe it? is it serious. do you really sense there's something to thegs@ññ thesis that because they're black they're inferior in intelligence? do you think that's worthy of discussion. absolutely, says this white businessman. i remember law school. i remember mario cuomo not being able to get. and to be aggravating to think this is the most powerful nation in the world that has given opportunity to 20 generations

we still haven't learned completely. >> rose: mario cuomo's influence spread far beyond new york state.when america was moving towards the political center and the right, he remained an outspoken defederal of liberalism and a staunch believer in the power of government to help people's lives. it is the role of government to do for this generation of seekers what it did for my mother and father. they didn't get a hand out. my mother had four children, never used a doctor or a hospital. she had four children at home. with mid wives. we didn't, they didn't ask for much except the opportunity to but my father ironically who was a ditch digger had more opportunity than a lot of people in new york city today who are educated. he had a job. he was only a ditch digger but there was a ditch to be dug and somebody handed him and shovel and said go to it andre and he worked. the most fundamental thing you can give people is an

opportunity to earn their own bread with a dignity and with a chance to move up. that my father had. it's kind of ironic. he didn't have much else. but you gave him the chance to make it on his own. we're not doing that for people now. >> rose: the quorum is -- quarrel is how do you best do that. >> one of the best things do trying to provide the answer to that question is use the language of the politicians. i think what you ought to do is address the question with common?q sense and baby talk. you know who was brilliant at that, abraham lincoln. he told you the role of government. absolutely. mine, yours, everybody who had the opportunity to know him would have to love him. although thehim which is an interesting reminder too. but lincoln described it for us about as well as you can describe it. not to use his words but he said hey look try to figure out what government should do. government should do things for youíyourself privately individually.

if you need to come together and pool your money and your energy to get it done then we'll call that governor. >> rose: he was also well-known as a fierce debater and spell binding or ter at the 1984 democratic contention in san francisco he overshadowed the parties nominee that year, walter mondale. in 1993 he shared with me some of the secrets of speech. >> first of all and i said to more than 11, 12 years of students i had i was trying to teach legal writing. understand this about a brief and it's true of the speech. you are never finished. you're finished when you run out of time. the notion that you have a perfect teach i can put that aside and do another one i still have a week. there's nov>> rose: vince lombardi said we never lost we just ran out of time. >> you never finish. you can always make it better. it's like trying a case.

arguing orally in the supreme court of the united states or delivering a speech. that's number one. that it is, you could wo2endlessly on it and the ending of it is arbitrary. number two, the most important thing is to have something to say. >> rose: drive an idea. >> something you believe. people say why don't you just get jimmy breslyn to write a speech. he's one of the most gifted writers ever lived if his heart's in it. and he wants to say something nobody's ever done anything better than had he. or norman mailer. aren't there people out there. bill kennedy couldn't he write a speech probably better than charlie rose but it would not be you and it wouldn't be what you want to say. and it wouldn't be what you believe. so the first thing have something to say and then it's very easy. you have to think all about the know all about the study it, be saturated in it and then write

it and then rewrite it and then rewrite it and then rewrite it and then read it. if it's going to be a speech are don't read it to yourself because you don't read it right. the words you put down reflected your thought plus the interpret lations that you think you got to the pain but never did. when you read it back you read the interpretlayings. if i read it to charlie rose and he reads it, you see gaps. so what you do is deliver it to charlie rose or your husband or wife or some or the elevator operator. say it. the keynote speech of 84 i read to about 10 or 12 people in my office at the world trade center. peoplejust read it and then went around the room, what did you think. you didn't say much on middle#cmk4,6cjúclass, orr foreign policy. you can do that two three four times with good profit. now i have never except for the

abortion i don't think there's a speech in this book had the time i think it should have had. >> rose: mario cuomo's three term as governor made him party's most popular figures. also one of its most trust tating. two times democrats urged cuomo to run for president two time after much deliberation he declined. he talked about why he decided not to run on this program. >> from 84 on, from the keynote in california on when i was asked about the presidency i always said the same thing. i said no i'm not thinking about running for president. i"j never thought about running for president. and i never suggested anything else. and everybody knows it. the last day of the new hampshire primary. indemnify former student and the teeth of the national chairman said publicly i hope the governor will let us know before the new hampshire primary. so i fixed that day. it was from october whatever the

date is to november whatever the date is that i had to decide the question. that was the shortest period of time, i guarantee you that anybody ever spent on the subject. in that period of time i set up a committee went all over the united states the committee did fund raising etcetera prepared a little book that dealt with every issue. the final issue was what would happen to mork state if i ran. the answer was the republicans wouldn't give us a budget, they would sink the darn state to keep me in new york. at least the way i analyzed. >> rose: when you made that decision it seemed to know youh;was your opportunity to do president and you seemed to do it reluctantly. you seemedded to it reluctantly. >> it's not an easy decision, frankly. it's not an easy decision.

you lead the polls. >> rose: you don't believe you would have wonhampshire primaries. >> most people, if you take the polls seriously. i was first in the polls. i'm not a fool. you're first in the polls for a long period of time and a lot of people you love and trust saying mario you're saying the kinds of things we believe please go out there and say it. of course you take that starysly. of course. that's the opportunity i devoted my life to is pursuing values and yadz i think is good for the whole people. an opportunity to do it on a broad stage more on the presidency challenge. the chance to make the case for new york on a national platform. >> rose: i understand. with his track record as a lawyer and politician marsh oh cuomo is widely touted as a potential supreme court justice but again he withdrew consideration before he could be nominated as he told me he fell he had other obligations. is the reason you're not criticizing this president if there was something it's because you want to be the first nominee

for the supreme court. >> no. >> rose: you have thought about whether you would accept it if he asked, yes. >> not enough to give you an answer. >> rose: it has to have occurred to you because he mentioned it you told me 13 times because somebody told you during the campaign. mario cuomo is the kind of person i would nominate to the suprememit is nowprepared to resign and he wants to see a democrat because he was nominated by john f. kennedy. would you like to sití@7+á(. on the supreme court. that's easy. would you like to sit on the supreme court? >> it's not as easy as you think because if you answer that question without qualifying it, then it's the same as saying i would rather do that than what i'm doing. so it's not a question would you rather be on the supreme court. >> rose: i didn't ask that question. would you rather be on the supreme court. would you like to be on the supreme court. >> if i could be governor and on the supreme court i would love it. >> rose: would you like to sit on the supreme court if you were not running for governor.

i'll get back to high first to get to this in the most logical manner. will you run for re-election. >> that is what i have to deal with now and here's what i said on the subject and i'll repeat it because i'm trying to avoid because it doesn't serve good purpose. i have never been invited to serve on the supreme court or to be nominated for president. there is no vacancy. if there were a vacancy and he asked me to do it or indicated he might me to do it, then i would have to i'd have to deal with that question. at the moment i amfocused on being governor. i have spent all of my public career>> rose: asthe people of new york. >> i would be happy finishing my career serving them. >> rose: he did not run for

supreme court. some people thought 245e7z decisions left his leg sea unfinished. but the governor had no regrets. >> everybody's life is the same in this regard. you can all look back every one of us moments in your love you made a decision and something didn't work out if i had won that contest in high school i might have been on broadway. i got $200 signing with the pits purg pirates. mickey mantle god 1100. i got 2000. they gave me a second year for waco, texas. the pirates. i never went back. did it ever occur to me if i went back -- >> rose: there was no reason for you to go back. >> so many good things have happened in my life. many more than i deserve that i am not capable of feeling regret in the sense that gee willikers.

i have gotten much more than i deserve and i mean that. >> rose: mario cuomo survived by his wife matilda five children including andrew the governor of new york and 14 grandchildren. mario cuomo < died at age 82. more about this program and early episodes visit us on-line at pbs.org and charlierose.com. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

>> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> rose: additional funding provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide.

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