>> i don't understand this rudeness. what is this? i don't get it. >> this week on "inside washington," the robust, sometimes nasty debate over health care reform. >> let's disagree over things that are real, not these wild misrepresentations that there no resemblance to anything that has actually been proposed. >> what are the political consequences of this struggle for the president and members of congress? >> one day god is going to stand before you and he is going to judge you. >> fed says things are getting better. why don't they feel better? >> free the local populace from the influence of the taliban.

>> election in afghanistan. and eunice kennedy shriver, founder of the special olympics, it dead at 88. >> president and the use to say that if she had been a man, she would have been president instead of jack. captioned by the national captioning institute --www.ncicap.org-- >> it has been a wild week on the health care front. the president has been trying to squelch reports that the democrats' health care reform includes a planned to kill old people. this week in iowa, senator chuck grassley helped to keep the talks going. >> i don't have problems with things like living wills, but they ought to be done within the family. we should not have a government program that determines you are going to pull the plug on grandma.

>> let's see if we can play this to rest is the obama administration plan to pull the plug on grandma, jeanne? >> no, they are not planning to do that. this is one of those provisions that because it is poorly written or people see a benefit from it has been totally misinterpreted. clearly, what it is is a reimbursement for services, and seniors that want to write a living will can get that for free, essentially, or at a discount. but it is voluntary, not mandatory. >> evan, why is this debate so nasty? >> it is the administration tried to get away with something. at the outset, they said we would control costs, but they said that nothing would change. people smelled a rat. they knew instinctively that could not be true, and try to fly to that and get the bill done quickly, and although there is misinformation and this is a

nutty theory that is out there, the public is not wrong to suspect that you cannot have it both ways, you cannot control costs and have the same health care. the administration has been caught on its own petard on this. >> mark? >> i believe that the death panel story is either ignorance or malice. you can say malan's in the case of the former speaker of the house, a man of a towering intellect, at encouraging this misperception but i do agree that one of the great problems of this plan from the very outset is that it violates the principle rules that there are no gains without pains. if there are going to be changes of this magnitude, there are going to be changes that will affect everyone of us. you a better off leveling with people going in to get a better result. >> charles, what you think? >> the back -- the death panels

of is wildly exaggerated, but there is a problem outlined by charles lane, editorial writer for "the washington post," quite liberal guy, smart guy, saying that if you introduced in the cost cutting session of the bill the idea of doctors being reimbursed by the government's for consultation on living wills, you are quiet be implying that this is something you want to encourage, and it is also linked with cutting costs. obama has spoken i in the past about his own grandmother getting a hip replacement machine is ill and infirm, whether it was worth it. there is a lot of thinking about this, and people suspect that at the end of the road, it will be a course of plan in medicine. >> i think the underlying reason for this provision is that there is data and studies out there that show that in areas where people are encouraged and to

develop guidelines on how they want to be treated at the end of life, most of them do not want to die in an icu unit. many of them want to die at home with the family around them. doctors with no guidance cannot make that call. the idea behind it is that yes, it would save money, because they are not in an icu unit. i agree with charles that the problem is that somehow this got wedded with -- it got tied to cost. >> the time that you want to make this decision is before that, and not to pass it on to the loved ones who are surviving, and then saying, my gosh, i then going to pull the plug? it is a rational, thoughtful, and sensible way -- >> i have been there in medicine.

the director of the living wills is almost entirely irrelevant. a doctor is not going to look at that unless you are unconscious, unless you a demented, and unless you do not have a family. what determines how you will be treated -- what you say in a hospital at the time, no matter what is written. >> i went through this with my own mother. she was dying, she wanted to die, and there were three doctors who wanted to do procedures on her. they were not unkind, but it was a way to do more procedures. it is a very difficult area, and we do not ever have an honest conversation about it. >> let me go to a question that is not wacky, addressed to maryland democrat ben cardin in towson, maryland. >> how are you going to keep my employer from stopping offering insurance and forcing me on to the public option if that is cheaper for their bottom line? >> that is a pretty good question.

does anybody have an answer? >> that is a question that the democrats do not want to face. that is why every business group that does provide insurance really talks about how the public plan could affect em. obama will argue that in order to keep good employees, businesses will have to offer better plans, sohat will keep the system in place, but there is going to be some of that. there will be some shedding off, no question about it, which is by senator baucus focusing so much on co-ops. >> which is why when barney frank is asked what he is not supporting a canadian-style system, which is what he really wants, he says on camera that there is no way to get it right away. the way to do it is with the public option agreed liberals understand that if you listen to the public option, it in the end, it will take over, because

the private industry will give up and people who are promised today that you will be able to keep your insurance are not going to have it if the employer is not offering it. >> all of these politicians are trying to do this with sleight of hand. obama is not being honest about it. he talks about wanting to cut costs, but nothing will change. on the hill, the idea of rationing at all is terrifying to politicians. we will not get from here to there unless we have an honest conversation about it and the public, for all the crazy conspiracy theories, is sort of tried to blow a whistle and ask what is goinonp

>> social security is bankrupt, medicare is bankrupt, the post office is bankrupt. how, as a proud american going to trust the people did the right thing? >> let me ask you about the political prospects. independent voters are getting a

sympathetic ear to the town hall protesters. senator arlen specter, who used to be a democrat and then became a republican and recently became a democrat again, could be losing ground because of his support for health-care reform. could this be a turning point for him? >> he certainly showed the mettle and someone said the meanness that has been in an effective senator over the years. he went toe-to-toe with the strongest of protesters. i do not know if it is a turning point. >> his unfavorables are up. >> i do think he is in a tough race, and joe sestak, his challenger, missed a golden opportunity to commend him for his handling of it. there is no question that all week long, the democrats have been on the defensive. they emphasize the positive meetings that have worked, three out of four, they insist, being good meetings without this kind of pyrotechnics.

but i do think that the white house has come back by reclaiming and rebounding -- rebutting the most egregious errors. but politically, it is very tough. >> how did the white house get behind the curve on this? >> the republicans had planned and implemented it instantly. i plan to get their people at these town hall meetings and message them in advance so that they were armed with the questions they were going to ask. it is a surprise, again, at the white house is behind. this seems to be a recurring pattern. they are about a week late. i agree with mark that they are coming back pretty strong this week. whether they can turn the whole corner remains to be seen. when it comes to arlen specter, i think he helped himself in the democratic primary, a place he needed to really he himself quite a bit. i think he looked pretty strong in h second performance in

particular. that became a model for the democrats. the democrats in the end of the month might benefit from showing toughness and knowledge. they are being asked to really hard questions and they all have to give detailed answers. i think it was much smarter for them to go out and face the fire rather than run and hide. >> charles says that president obama has already lost this debate is on the congressional budget office figures. >> as we are videotaping this show, obama is getting ready to go into the lion's den in montana. he needs the moment, a big moment where they are all yelling at him, and he says something that is calming yet firm. he needs to be out there where the senators are really going, facing the detractors and doing it in a way that shows courage and leadership. >> democrats would like to think that they are losing this because they are being out- organized, because there is

conspiracies out there, groups that are galvanizing people, or tactics are wrong. the problem is with one evan said -- at the core of this is a contradiction that the ordinary americans understand -- president says we have to cut costs on health care and i am going to do it and we will insure 50 million additional americans. if you are 8 years old, you know that cannot be true. there is something here that is wrong. when the cbo came out and said that it is going to cost a fortune, it is not going to save the, there was no escape. those are numbers that you cannot refute. >> this year the fed about as a tacit $1.27 trillion. people notice that and they -- >> the way it affects the health care debate is that the health care bill from the outset was going to be paid for. it was not in and of self adding to the deficit.

the problem is with the deficit getting that big, the costs in the system of medicare and medicaid. all the health cost of the government pays. now there is pressure for them to find ways to bend at cost, and that is much trickier proposition. >> in friday's "washington post," there was a target that demonstrated this to exactitude -- all of the growth in future years comes from medicare and medicaid. that is where the growth is. it is not small, it is really big, and until they get a handle on that, it is going to chew up the federal budget and the u.s. economy. one statistic -- in 1890, was beltway% in the economy on health care. now it is 70%. -- we spent 12% of the economy on health care. now it i17%. >> the fed tells us that the

recession is bottoming out and things are getting better. it sure doesn't feel like things are getting better. senator grassley says we may not have a bill. is that possibility? >> no, they will have a bill because the democrats know that the president is dead politically if that does not happen. there will be a fallback, a health insurance bill, which means that you will impose on insurance companies, everybody is in short, no preconditions, exclusions, etc., and there will be amended so thathe young who are uninsured and healthy will have to pay and subsidize the old. >> whatharles describes cannot happen, because the insurance companies have cut a deal here, and there is no way that they can take in everybody without some give on th other side, and the democrats know that and the white house knows that. there will be a health care reform bill, but what is at stake is the public plan, and s charles said, that is very close

to having fallen away already. >> insurance companies will be compensated by having a mandate with the young paying into insurers and that will subsidize the payment for the uninsured and the old.

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>> sunday's your mind is not right. you think about what is going on back home, i could be drinking a beer right now, i did i join the army, people shooting at me, what am i doing here? and other days you are like, i am going to take that guy's ass. >> good question, what is he doing there? the next head of the british army says that the u.k. will be committed to afghanistan for the next 30 to 40 years, evan. how long are our people going to

be there? >> 30 to 40 years. we will have some kind of force in afghanistan. the really poignant thing that is going on on the ground is that we have got to reduce civilian casualties, and this is never going to work. in order to reduce civilian casualties, you have to put your soldiers at risk. you cannot be calling in air strikes, you cannot be calling in artillery strikes. those poor soldiers have to go out there and shoot these guys one by one, and that is risky for them. that is a change in doctrine that is calling on these men and women to put their lives at risk so that they did not kill civilians. >> to what and, what you say to them? why are we putting out there? >> civilian casualties are up, and the principal cause, beyond the taliban, and the air strikes. this has become a remote combat situation.

americans are seen in a heavily armored vehicles when they are seen in this troubled areas, beyond the times to organize communities -- >> mark, you are a step behind. they have changed the doctrine but th-- they are doing fewer air strikes. >> afghans see the casualties as a consequence of american policy. when richard holbrooke, the group afghanistan and pakistan, was asked this week how to define success, he said, "wewill know what we see it." w that, i am sorry, is not a rationale or reason for sending americans into -- >> if you are a parent with a young man or woman over there being shot at on a regular basis, and you say why are we here -- >> i think that this one is a

lot easier to talk to those parents about the and iraq, because this is the root of september 11. through the taliban, hopefully to al qaeda. and that is the path, and that is one that can be justified, i think, to parents much more easily than iraq might have been. this is about getting osama bin laden. >> yes, but not if it is an unwinnable war. that is the great irony. democrats are the ones who said that afghanistan is the good work, the right word, we should have been there all the time. but how do you fight a war in a country that never was a country? iraq was a country, had been one, and it can hold together and it is holding together. it was a winnable war. afghanistan is a war that only at a minimum is winnable, meaning keeping at bay the taliban and allocate a. -- al qaeda. the idea of constructing the new afghanistan, as we all must

successfully done in iraq, is out of the question. afghanistan never was a country and will not be a democracy. we have to redefine our goals radically now or we are going to be there for 30, 40 years. >> we will not be there for 30, 40 years. at some point, it becomes unsustainable without an achievable mission, a defined mission. >> we are going to have some kind of force there for as long as you and i can see. >> may be in kabul. >> he is the mayor of kabul. karzai is. >>p

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not power politics, weapons or wealth. what truly counts is the courageous spirit and generous heart. >> the voice of eunice kennedy shriver, who died this week. she was certainly a force of nature. according to those who knew her, she was the force between the special olympics. i say she was a force of nature according to those who knew her. the stories about her were wonderful. >> i interviewed her about bobby kennedy, and if you dared to suggest even the tiniest in perfection with him, you are immediately set straight on that subject and told to get with the program. she was a formidable lady. >> she was an inspiration for many who care about the end here, and she illustrates how much can beone even if you are not in an elective office, holding a power base somewhere. the special olympics now is

internationally influential, and she did all that without holding office. we have seen a generations of nnedys behind her also starting to do things in the private sector. it is a great role model for what people can accomplish. >> she has terrific children. they are in the public sector one way or another, too. >> she was a very noble woman who took up a noble cause and made it work. it tells us that the kennedys were the royal family, that generation was most extraordinary. a president, a martyred senator bobby, a great senator and a -- senator in teddy. i do not think the new generation can match the elders, and that is not a put down. >> her brother's all made headlines and history books. she made a difference. she changed the way we see each

other. before eunice kennedy became the face, the voe of those who are mentally disabled, they were basically shunted from the mainstream of our society. she put her hand over them and brought them into the light acceptance or they could work and go to school and be accepted. it is an enormous and chief -- an enormous achievement. >> p