fires missiles and revelations about a secret nuclear program. what are these people up to? the top commander and afghanistan says he needs 40,000 more troops to get the job done. we have seen this movie before. >> mr. conrad, mrs. lincoln? >> democrats helped torpedo the public option on health care. and the present travels to denmark to make a pitch for the chicago olympics. is that wise? >> e.gov series issues here at home that need to be debated. >> and columnist william safire dead at 79 -- watch your language. >> i am for hopeful, but it should be, it is to be hoped now. how many people do you know say, it is to be hoped.

>> they met in an 18th-century villa and a suburb of geneva, switzerland. senior american and iranian delegates. these are the first known high- level talks between the united states and iran in years. and they follow the news that iran has been secretly building a new uranium enrichment plant and testifying long-range missiles capable of hitting israel and american forces in the persian gulf. after the meetings, the president said this. >> we expect to see swift action. we are committed to serious and meaningful engagement but not interested in talking for the sake of talking. if iran does not take steps in the near future to live up to its obligaons, then the united states will not continue to negotiate indefinitely. we are prepared to move toward increased pressure. >> what kind of pressure? iran did agree to open its newly disclosed enrichment plant for inspection and agreed in principle but the question remains will be talks in along

run revealed anything? >> doubtful. well, it puts time on the clock, which is not altogether bad. but hoare you going to trust the iranians? it sounds like you're just taking it down the road. >> mark? >> i think it is a hope but verify situation at think the key in this whole problem is the russians and chinese. whether in fact they are serious about this will determine whether in fact we have a rogue nation proliferating nuclear capabilities across the globe. >> gene, is this going anywhere? >> i agree, we just don't know. because they can't be trusted. it is positive they came to the table and they brought something to the table. it is positive that it agreed to certain things without saying but will get back to you and never get back to us. that looks positive. it is a constructive start but it could end in the blink of an eye because they are the iranians. >> are you encouraged, charles?

>> no, it is a farce. the game is not complicated. it is not chess, it is checkers. the iranians have a single objective, delay. we have a single objective, stop the enrichment. there is an easy way to judge whether any of this is helpful. we are not an iota near stopping enrichment. the iranians are gaining with the delay. they are months, perhaps a year or two away of obtaining a new. this is a sprint. every week and month you delay and we acquiesce in that delay is a gain for the iranians. >> is not insignificant, though, that they are going to allow the inspectors back in. we will see if they follow through with that commitment, allowing them unfettered access. if they do that, it is not insignificant, but there is a chance that they will not allow them unfettered access. >> didn't they just say a few days ago they are not going to

give up the programs? >> and this inspection is insignificant. the reason is the inspections will be asked qom, the newly discovered site. it does not have a single centrifuge, it is not operational yet. we are going to spend months, perhaps a year or two inspecting reports and looking at qom, in the meantime, the iranian is being enriched at another place. qom is a diversion, red herring, and i can come up with eight other images. it has nothing to do with stopping in richmond today, which will produce the bomb. >> it seems like there is 100 percent chance they will build a bomb. it is not just the craze is, it is moderate. the question is what we do. two choices. the israelis want to take it out with a strike. i think that is a mistake because of all the consequences that would happen. we have to figure out a way to

live with the bomb. is there deterrence, let the cold war, once they get the bomb? or are the is really going to take out? >> should we be focused on what is going on internally in iran? a lot of turmoil. >> no question, but these are the first normal talks in 30 years. i think it is important to echo jeans point. i think it is important. i do think engagement is important. absent that, then you are left with one option, and that is the israeli option, and if anybody thinks -- >> i don't think it is right. it is not either talk, talk, talk -- you have to get to the point where we deter them. they're going to get the bomb. >> we know. but i say engagement. isolation has not worked. engagement is part of the detering -- not -- a central

element, but you've got to have the chinese and russians with you on this. i think this is a test for them as much as it is the international atomic energy agency or anybody else. where were they in this whole ball game? >> engagement is worthless. all you can actually do is the third option, short of a military strike, is a true sanctions regime. it reason it has a chance of working is because of the internal unrest. sanctions are not going to change the minds of the people of power today. they are not going to stop them. however, because of this amazing serendipitous upring, if you have a combination of shunning the economy down with a blockade, for example, shutting off of gasoline supplies in a condition of unrest and true unhappiness in the population against the government, you have a chance of regime change. short of that, there is not going to be a stoppage.

>> the top commander in going to be a stoppage. >> the top commander in afghanistan says he we've come together from start up firms, to global communications companies, to organizations representing millions of users. we don't always agree, but we've come together to share an important goal: bringing the magic of high speed internet to everyone. private investment and competition drive the innovation and technology of the internet and companies keep inventing and investing to bring you a faster, smarter and safer internet for tomorrow. we're broadband for america, your partners in this amazing journey.

military judgment is that the situation is in some ways deteriorating. >> that is general stanley mcchrystal, top american a deerow commander in afghanistan. heants 40,000 more troops and more dramatic change in tactics. evan, you travel to afghanistan and talk to the man. what kind of guy is he? >> he is very impressive. he only needs one meal a day. he is a war hero. but the significant thing is he was the guy who was in charge of killing people as the head of special operations. >> successfully. >> more experience encountered terror, finding and killing the bad guy. he makes a pretty good argument that you can't just do that by

itself. in order to kill the bad guy, you have to do this counter insurgency. if you don't have the civilians on your side, they are not cooperating, you can't find the bad guys to kill them. that had some affect on me, it can't just stand off and hope you can kill the guy is from a great distance but you have to be on the grant getting the civilians on your side. >> that is fine, but in this tribal society when you have all kinds of conflicting forces, one day i am on your side next day on the other side -- >> i think it is a huge mess. it feels like a lose-it lose proposition. if you stay in, a big ugly mess, and if you get out, a big, ugly mess. >> but you have general mcchrystal and vice president by the selling something else and secrety of state clinton saying something else. his speech the this administration? >> the president has to, and he

better soon because there are too many voices right now. general mcchrystal, i think evan will back this up, also said resources alone will not win the war. the added troops -- without that there would be guaranteed failure. but he does not guarantee success. he pegs the eventual success upon this illusory afghan security force and army. which there is no historical precedent for nationally and years and years away. >> i think they have a much better strategy to do this, but it is years and years away and it is going to be messy at best. >> jane, political question, how unusual is it for a four-star general to be pushing the president and. this serious? >> i am not sure he meant to publicly pushed the present. somebody leaked the report and

greeted the pressure on the white house. >> that is fair. >> but having this debate is a good thing because the decision has to be made. and you are right, the political dynamics are as important as the military ones because congress is very divided about this as well. and that is yet another personality, multiple personality, that has to be considered in this debate as the president goes forward. there are many democrats who are inclined to buy new's division, concern we might get bogged down into a war that the public no longer supports. he may have to rely on john mccain and republicans if they want to go with a mcchrystal- style solution. this is a very complicated decision, probably the most and poor and when he will have to make as first year in office. >> he will look for a compromise, which is his nature.

i don't think there is a compromise here. you give someone wants, or the thing doesn't work. >> the vietcong, there were no -- it will not going to fly airplanes into american buildings. your thoughts. >> the analogy of mcchrystal and petreaus, the overall, is the iraq analogy. that is, they were in a downward spiral and the chain's strategy to counter insurgency. if you can establish trust in a population because you can secure them by staying, american outposts were built in the towns, in the villages, in the neighborhood in iraq. if the population will trust you, you will get information and you will kill the bad guys. that will increase local security so people will give you more information. and that will kill more the bad guys. that is how al qaeda was

defeated in iraq. their idea is in the absence of that weill definitely lose. however, mcchrystal is not guaranteeing success if you go to counter insurgency. >> taliban or al qaeda or both? the taliban had of that act cleaned up. they are not the no. 1 villain that they once were. to afghan women, they very well be. but one of the real political problems is this is eight years into this war and now we have a new strategy. when you have a new strategy eight years and a war, natural cynicism sets in, especially in the highest casualty mum's the of the entire eight years has been the preceding three months -- september, august, july. and i don't think -- there are two reactions. the troop morale is really at risk when there is nothing but

indifference at home, which i think there is the case, when there is open resistance to the war and without the participation of the citizenry at large you really run the risk of debasing the military. >> the one problem with the iraq analogy is the election and afghanistan. the government would step up and take over, but the afghan the government would step up and take over, but the afghan government is

a health insurance ceo lives here. this year he'll make $57,000 an hour. another family used to live here before they filed for bankruptcy. 62% of personal bankruptcies are caused by medical debt. this man is living his dream while this family lives a nightmare. if the insurance companies win, you lose. we need good health care we can afford with the choice of a public people a choice? >> the government is not a fair competitor. it is not even a competitor. >> you don't want medicare? then it is a predator. >> the question is is the public option dead or just playing possum? >> that august town meeting really had an impact on chuck

grassley. attacking farm subsidies next, i think, corn. no, it is not dead, strangely enough. it will be in the house bill. there have been 3 bills passed by house committee. only one bill that counts, the speaker's bill. she is working on that, she will presented, and it will pass. in the senate, talking in my own interviews with a democratic senators in far of it, they believe there are between 52 votes and 55 votes on the public option. the question is do you get to a vote, that is the key. harry reid, democrat majority leader, but the state to his colleagues, i need you on a procedural vote, that is, that a filibuster cannot stand on any issue that we raise. if he can do what george mitchell did and hold them together, on the procedural vote, that would guarantee the vote.

i want to have a vote when i wanted. if he can do it and is in a position to do it, then the public option is arrived. >> trying the nuclear option or reconciliation it can't get it? >> i think that is an option, but i don't think it is an option they want to go to. i think that is one they want to threaten. >> we'd like to talk about choice and competition as part of our american cabalistic system. is their choice in this bill? is that competition? one senator said it isn't. he said -- and split it out. >> the problem is the co-ops in this bill are so untested. and it is unclear who will run them. they will be created by the state. but in the small states in particular you can have such a dominant presence of one or two insurance companies that there is some suspicion that the insurance companies would end up running the co-ops.

there have been several attempts to create coops. only two have truly succeeded. they are very different models. that is why people have a lot of concern about whether the co-ops will present a real competitive alternative to the insurance offered by private companies and in a way that would drive down rates. it is pretty much an unknown. >> charles? >> i think the public option is a red herring. it i think the real problem with the senate finance committee bill, as the other bills is, is the cost. we had something that the cbo had said was revenue neutral, but only because baucus had originally intended for people to get very small subsidies, required to purchase health insurance, you cannot afford it, small subsidies. you would have hit the lower middle class extremely hard. all of that is being undone but

that means it will explode the cost than the deficit. the problem with squaring that circle is simply not solve than any of the bills. >> no, but it is in the balkans bill. they had an amendment that the added to create in come to offset the more generous subsidies. but i would agree that the block this bill more than y others has been hostage to cbo scoring. . they have not taken on the things that makes our health care costs a higher percentage of the economy than any other country. that basic fact remains unchanged. >> something universal all of that, it might be ok, but we are not going to bend the cue. >> all right, well house minority leader john boehner thought it was important to remind the president of the united states, you are not the mayor of chicago.

>> hi, everybody. it really is a campaign. it is. >> we look forward to welcoming the world to the shores of lake michigan and the heartland of our nation in 2016. >> so, the president, the first lady, " or winfrey all in copenhagen making a trip to the elements in chicago. the competing with tokyo, real visionary, madrid. is this a trip the president of made? >> he cannot even decide on afghanistan. he's got iran, unemployment, all of this stuff. look, what exactly was the eat indelible legacies that the atlanta olympics left? code gives a damn? >> this idea that he is wasting time -- in fact when he was in copenhagen he met with the general mcchrystal. it was actually easier in europe than the united states.

>> less than half an hour? is that a serious meeting? >> i bet it was a serious meeting. i bet it was a serious meeting. >> whether he went for naught in the long haul will not matter as much. the real thing about the olympics that strikes me is they can be a fickle gift. the olympics were a disaster for president carter, as we all know. and the atlanta bombing that took place during the olympics there were a disaster for some mothers. you never know what you're going to get. >> 1984 olympics were golden for ronald reagan. remember that. this kind of the aura of his reelection. a morning in america. the salt lake city olympics, mitt romney to the front ranks of -- because it came in and rescued them.

. 2016 -- i know what. chicago. tom p. o'neill said all politics is local and the president proved this. >> montreal in 1976, still in debt and bankrupt. >> i feel a lot better about montreal. >> i don't want to leave without saying a word about bill safire, new york times columnist died this week at age of 79. a true gentleman of unfailing good humor. as an example, has no political dictionary in 1993 describes smattering nabobs -- words put in mouth of spirit agnew in 1970. the line got a laugh from audience -- one said the worst example of alliteration in american history, charles. then he was a lovely man. i knew him, like him a lot. he was cresting, very smart, independent, courageous. he was not a party guy, he was a libertarian. for example, he went against the

patriots at that time nobody else did, right or left. a lovely man, truly a loss. >> he had a great line -- generals should comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. >> i think the most enduring legacy is he is responsible for the conservative voices in "the new york times" on their editorial page that will last long beyond him. >> through that attack of spiro agnew, the new york times felt obliged to give a conservative voice. they gave it to bill safire because he got the job by attacking the press, he had great -- there was skepticism and even hostility among his colleagues until one day in at an outing, but the great political reporters young son fell into a pool and was really in trouble and bill safire plunged and fully dressed and save vint and from that moment 40 was accepted. >> last word, thanks. see you next week.

>> last word, thanks. see you next week.

>> hello, and welcome to "clean skies sunday," a weekly half-hour look at energy issues facing washington and america. i'm susan mcginnis. this week, after months of delay, the senate unveils its version of climate change legislation. one senator on two key committees involved in the legislation, senator ben cardin, talks about what he'd like to see in energy reform. and, waste not, want not -- a pennsylvania farmer finds a way to power his business and home by turning manure into methane. first, senate democrats formally and finally unveiled the long-anticipated senate climate legislation, the boxer-kerry cap-and-trade bill. sponsored by senators barbara boxer and john kerry, the bill largely mirrors the house-passed waxman-markey bill, with a few exceptions. "clean skies'" tyler suiters has been following boxer's plan since december, and, tyler, still a lot of open-ended issues. r