>> schieffer: we're having a heat wave and it's not just about the weather. immigration, the obama agenda-- or lack thereof-- and romney's business record sent the campaign temperatures soaring. mitt romney looked for a new recipe to counter of president's promise not to deport the children of some illegal immigrants. >> i don't want to rush this. this is so much fun. >> schieffer: after a brief stumble, the president got his mo-jo back as the two candidates went hard after the hispanic vote. ( speaking spanish ) was prouding the opportunity with a temporary measure the right thing to do? i think it was. >> schieffer: then why did you wait until now, asked romney. >> he did nothing to advance a permanent fix for our broken

immigration system, nothing. instead, he failed to act until facing a tough reelection and trying to secure your vote. >> schieffer: well, why did your company put all those people out of work, shot back the obama side, in a withering new ad. >> mitt romney made over $100 million by shutting down our plant and devastated our lives. >> schieffer: which gives us plenty to talk about with texas governor rick perry, former moapt governor tim pawlenty, the man many say is on romney's short list for running mate. the chairman of the democratic convention, los angeles mayor antonio villaraigosa, romney's senior adviser eric fehrnstrom, and obama's deputy campaign manager, stephanie cutter. plus analysis from "time" magazine's joe klein, dan balz of the "washington post," and our own norah o'donnell and john dickerson. we'll wade into all of it, but don't hold your breath waiting

for things to cool down because this is "face the nation." captioning sponsored by cbs from cbs news in washington, "face the nation" with bob schieffer. >> schieffer: and good morning, again, and welcome to "face the nation." texas governor rick perry is in austin with us this morning. governor, thank you for joining us. you said some pretty-- >> good morning, mr. schieffer. >> schieffer: you said tough things about mitt romney during the primaries but now you're a romney man. how do you think he's doing? >> well, we all said some tough things about each other. that's what competition is about and contests, but i think governor romney is very focused on the issues that are important to the vast majority of the people out there, and that's chet. this president has overseen the loss of 1.4 million jobs. we're now into the greatest deficit position this country has ever been in because of the

uncontrolled spending that has gone on with the stimulus program. so mitt romney is very steady, job-creating focus on allowing the private sector to create those jobs is spot on. most americans understand that. they're ready to have a change in washington, d.c. in 2015. >> schieffer: let me ask you, the thing that was at the top of the news this week, of course, was immigration. we heard the president make his announcement he's not going to deport the children of some of the illegals, children who were brought in here when they were-- when they were very young. during the primary, governor romney accused you of giving a subsidy to some of the illegals because you were going to let them go to school at the university of texas and the other state schools at the in-student rate. and here's what you said about it. >> if you say that we should not

educate children who have come into our state for no other reason than they've been brought there by no fault of their own, i don't think you have a heart. >> schieffer: so that's pretty tough thing, governor. how can you come can off saying that, and now say you think he's the man? >> well, what we were talking about there is the economic impact that it has on the states. and these two issues, of which president obama and what we as governors have to deal with, are completely and absolutely different. president obama is going around the congress and, frankly, a very lawless way of doing it. he's basically-- he couldn't get it done through congress, so he's just basically, during an election year, using this as the political wedge issue. very, very different. what governor romney has strongly talked about was securing the border. and that's what all of us

governors have to deal with is the reality of a federal government that is absolutely failed when it comes to the issue of securing the border. if this president over the last three and a half years had made any effort to secure the border instead of running operations like fast and furious where-- i mean, bob, you've got to admit, this is almost nixonian if not absolutely nixonian in the cover-up that's going on with the fast and furious. don't you agree with that? >> schieffer: well, i would ask you what do you think should be done on that? do you think congress should hold the attorney general in contempt? it's coming down to that. give me your thought on what should happen here. >> well, when you think about it, we've had over 300 mexican nationals killed directly attributable to this fast and furious operation where they brought those guns into mexico, and a former marine and a border

patrol agent by the name of brian terri lost his life. i mean, with watergate, you had a second-rate burglary. and now you have a president who is using his executive privilege to keep that information from congress. if that's not nixonian, then i don't know what it is, bob. >> schieffer: but you'rization-- would you favor the congress holding him in contempt, because it looks like that's what may be about to happen here? >> what i would favor is the president of the united states being transparent with what is going on. i mean what is so important-- what are they hiding? what has gone on that's so important that i'm going to use executive privilege to keep the united states congress from having documents? this is really troubling. very trouble tooth american people. >> schieffer: what exactly are you accusing the president of here, governor. >> i don't know.

that's the issue. if he will be transparent, if if he will be open with the congress and the american people then we will know what went on with fast and furious. why were those guns being transported and totally lost control of, and ending up in the hands of cartels who used them for criminal activities up to and including murder of a united states border patrol agent. >> schieffer: let me shift just a little bit and get back to talking about governor romney. during the primaries, you accused him of being a vulture capitalist. well, now the obama campaign is making a lot out of the fact that some of the businesses that went bankrupt that bain capital had an investment, in the newspaper reporters say that governor romney made millions of dollars as those companies went bankrupt and people were put out of work. you have rethought your feelings about his business background? >> well, id say this-- that attack didn't work during the

primary. it's not going to work during the general election, either. as a matter of fact you have had a number of major democrat operative and office holders scold the president rather strongly for going after mitt romney with that same exact attack. i'll give the president some advice-- it didn't work back in 2012. and it's-- or the early part of 2012, and it's not going to work in the last months of this campaign. >> schieffer: well, i'm not quite sure i understand or i follow your logic there. it was your attack-- are you saying you were wrong? or are you saying you wrong-- >> that's exactly what i'm saying. i'm saying that is a wrong attack that's not going to work politically. so if you want to spend your time trying to deflect off of the miserable economy this country is in-- you know, we talk about immigration and we talk about the hispanic vote,

the hispanic population is three percentang points higher in unemployment. there are two million more hispanics not working today. this president is going to pitch everything at the wall that he can to deflect off of the sour economy that we have in this country, particularly in the hispanic population. so, year, i'd go talk about everything else in the world to try deflect the american people off of the most important issue, and that is how are we going to get americans working again? >> schieffer: all right, well, governor, are you going to get out and campaign for governor romney? >> oh, already am. we're work for him every day. i'm going to be out in california doing some events. wherever he needs me, i will be. >> schieffer: all right, thank you so much, governor. tim pawlenty is the former governor of minnesota. he was a candidate for the republican nomination himself before he left the race fairly early and endorsed mitt romney. he's in salt lake city this morning, and let me just start

off with a question that you're probably not going to answer-- if the president asked you to be his running mate, would you accept because i know you're on the short list. >> well, bob, if the president scheduled me, barack obama, i would say no. >> schieffer: point well taken. if governor romney asked, what would you say? >> i have indicated that i think i can best serve governor romney in other ways, particularly as a volunteer and surrogate speaker in places he can't go. i have encouraged people who asked this question in the campaign to look at other prospectes, but, obviously, anybody who would be asked to serve in a position like that would be honored to be asked. but i really encourage folks to look at other prospects and to suggest i think i can help him best in other ways. >> schieffer: all right. you are one of what may be 600, 700, maybe 800 republicans that were out there in utah this weekend for a big retreat.

they were all invited out by governor romney. what is that about? is it a fund-raising thing? what's that about? >> well, what it's about is this-- when you're running for president of the united states you need a team of friends, family, supporteres, donors, and as the campaign unfolds those people need to be informeformedd motivated and encouraged in their work. so this was a gathering of governor romney's and anne romney's best friends and supporters and family members to give them a campaign update and a briefing, not just on the campaign but on issues, so that they feel informed and also can share that information with their networks and colleagues to get out the vote and get other people to support. seats kind of a rally, if you will, of some of his best supporters and a briefing on the issues with some of his supporters. >> schieffer: who pays for something like that? does governor romney pick up the tab for that or does everybody pay their own way? how does that work? >> i don't know the details, i

think everybody came at their own expense. there is some overhead, but i don't think the romney campaign paid for airfare and lodging. >> schieffer: did you have to donate to the campaign to be invited? >> i think there was some requirement, donation local official you had to have met to be invited to this, but there are other similar campaign events in forms of reallies and other meetings around the country at other times for donors and supporters. bob, it's a good thing. we want people on the team to be informed, motivated, encouraged and to goat out and try to do what they can to get governor romney elected president. >> schieffer: let me ask you one more question about it. it's my understanding the super pacs we have now, the independent groups that raise money, that people can give unlimited sums, they, as i understand it, are supposed to, by law, required to operate independently from the keeps themselveses, or supposed to be no coordination, yet i notice that karl rove, who runs one of

the biggest pacs, maybe the biggest one, was out there at your conference and spoke. is that professor? >> it is, indeed, proper because the line between the campaigns and these independent groups is that you can't coordinate about the intendature of money. so you can talk all day long about issues, policy, general things like that. you just can't cross the line to say, now, you're going to spend your money this way and we're going to spend our money that way. it's a little bit of an over-simplification but that's the line and certainly that wasn't crossed here, nor it will be during this campaign glefd governor, let me ask you this-- do you think somewhere down the line, governor romney's going to have to get a little more specific. for example on taxes, he's pretty open he's ready to cut taxes but he has not yet told us which of the deduction eeleliminate, christmas loopholes he'll eliminate to pay for these tax 'cause.

when are we going to hear about it? >> i think we have. he called for a 20% reduction across the board on individual income tax rates and for small businesss. he's been specific about his tax cuts for corporate tax rates now in the america some of the highest in the world. he's talked about eliminating interest and capital gains-- excuse me, taxation for people in the middle income categories, and he's talking about paying for it by reducing government spending, returning government spending to g.d.p. no more than 20% and a series of deductions to put us on a pathway for a balanced budget. for those who dive into the details i think you would see governor romney hab quite specific. >> schieffer: just last week when i talked to him, when he granted us an interview, and i asked him, "which deductions are you go going to eliminate and for who?" he said he's going to try to keep everybody faith the same proportion but he wouldn't say which deductions. he said that will come later.

>> that's right. so he hasn't put out a specific plan to eliminate any of the particular deductions within the tax code but he has talked pretty specifically how he would reform, reduce, and cut down government responding overall and help put the country on a pathway to a balanced budget. >> schieffer: scott walker and several other republicans have said that governor romney needs to go bold. he need needs to put something t there that people can get their arms around. when do you think we'll hear that? >> well, i do want to jump back and make one important point, bob. we have in the white house now the president of the united states, the leader of our nation, who has not put out any specific proposals on some of the most pressing issues of the day. for example, where is president obama's specific proposal on reforming medicaid and medicare? anyone who understands the budget crisis facing this country understands that entitlements have to be talked about, and we need a leader to

address that in detail. i'll come to your house, bob schieffer, and mow your lawn if you can find president obama's specific proposals on reforming entitlements in this country. nearly four years into his presidency we have a leader of the country who is absent on some of the most pressing financial issues of the day. so let's hold him accountable as well. and as to being bold, your question about governor romney, the number one issue on the minds of most americans is the economy, and the abysmal economy under president obama and governor romney, of course, has been very aggressive and very bold about what it will take to get this economy moving again-- tax reform, using american energy not foreign energy-- >> schieffer: all right. >> the ability to get after that. reforming health care through market principles. egz up on regulations to stimulate job growth and a number of other things and that's the number one issue and he's been extremely direct and bold. >> schieffer: thank you very

much, governor, and i'll let you off the hook because i live in an apartment. you don't have to mow my lawn. we'll be back with los angeles mayor antonio villaraigosa.

>> schieffer: we're back with one of the obama campaign supporters, the los angeles mayor antonio villaraigosa. mr. mayor, thank you so much for being with us. i want to start with in. after the president announced he would no longer deport young illegals brought here as children by their parents, governor romney really unloaded on him. listen to this. >> despite his promises, president obama has failed to address immigration reform. for two years, this president had huge majorities in the house and senate. he was to pursue any policy he pleased. but he did nothing to advance a

permanent fix for our broken immigration system, nothing. instead, he failed to act until facing a tough reelection. and trying to secure your vote. >> schieffer: so there is a grain of truth in that, governor. i mean, nothing got done. you have to say that. >> well, let me just say, i'm not governor. i'm mayor. but, look, i think it's pretty clear that he has amnesia, and this is why. 208 democrats passed the dream act in the congress with the president's support, 51 democrats in the senate supported it. there were only eight republicans in the house and four republicans in the senate. in fact, they worked to prevent cloture in the senate so we couldn't pass the dream act. the fact is the president has done what we should do, and that

is address the fact that these kids have been living here for most of their lives. they know no other country but this one. they want to contribute mightily to the nation. they want to serve in the military. the president's deferring action on deportation. if mr. romney wants to come clean with what he's going to do, he ought to do it. but you gave him last week multiple opportunities to say whether or not he would veto this. he wouldn't answer it. he asked the question rhetorically at the conference, wouldn't answer it began. the fact is the "new york times" said he was evasive. everybody who has watched him over the last week knows this-- he hasn't changed his core policy. he supports the self-deportation of 11 million people. that means dividing children from their families. he would veto the dream act. and very important, he thinks that the arizona and alabama laws should be a model for the

nation. i don't think that's where we want to go. if he wants to take this out of the debate in the campaign, he ought to call on speaker boehner, the republicans in the house and the senate, to work with president obama and the democrats to pass not only dream act but comprehensive immigration reform. let's get it off the campaign trail and off the campaign back-and-forth. >> schieffer: you know, your point is well taken. i promoted you to governor. maybe that's not a promotion. ( laughs ) don't forget earlier in the broadcast i asked tim pawlenty what he would do if the president asked him to be the running mate. he pointed out that he would say no if president obama asked him. the romney people think if they could get 40% of the hispanic vote that that might be enough to tilt this. right now, he's running at about 20-something percent. do you think that they can do that? >> i don't.

and not because there aren't latinos who want to support republicans. you know, we're not a monolithic community, any more than any other community is. the relationship is simple-- their policies, their policies on immigration that i just spoke about or the economy. un, it was governor perry that called mr. romney's policies-- i think he called them-- i'm sorry, it was-- he called them predatory capitalism, vulture capitalism. it was gingrich who called it predatory capitalism, excuse me. but we know this about his record. he didn't create 100,000 jobs like he said for most of the campaign. fact check has proved that that is not true. we know that he piled on a lot of debt on companies, fired a lot of workers, and made a lot of money. that to me doesn't qualify him

to be president of the united states. we know that when he was governor, he was 47th out of 50th when it comes to job creation. and he added more debt on the people of massachusetts per capita than any other state. so i don't think those things are going to qualify him to be president of the united states. and i don't think that latinos are going to vote for him whether it's because of the economy, immigration, or the fact that he has a-- he's propose aid $5 trillion tax cut that, as you said, has given us no understanding of how he's going to pay for it. >> schieffer: let me ask you this, what if he put marco rubio on the ticket as his running mate? >> i think historically, v.p. , you know, selections give you a little bit of a bump, maybe in a state, but they don't give you much else. i think the fact of the matter is, this election is going to be about the issues. it's going to be about the future.

it's not going to be about who he picks as his running mate. >> schieffer: mr. mayor, it's always a pleasure to have you and we really appreciate you coming by this morning. thank you so much. >> it's always great to be with you, bob. >> schieffer: back in a moment with some thoughts about picking running mates. one is for a clean, wedomestic energy future that puts us in control. our abundant natural gas is already saving us money, producing cleaner electricity, putting us to work here in america and supporting wind and solar. though all energy development comes with some risk, we're committed to safely and responsibly producing natural gas. it's not a dream. america's natural gas...

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kemp was trashing republican nominee bob dole's strategy less than a month before dole picked kemp as his running mate. it made merely in 2000 when george bush asked dick cheney to scour the world and find a running mate for him, not many of us thought cheney would find himself. i remember how surprised everyone was when bush's father picked dan quayle in 1988. i'll never forget bush's campaign manager jim baker coming to the convention floor to make sure everyone knew it wasn't his idea. in 1980, henry kissinger and a group of influential friends were urging ronald reagan to make former president ford his running mate, but when nancy reagan saw ford on tv telling walter cronkite his idea of a co-presidency she wanted no part of that and the decision was made to put bush on the ticket. talk about surprise. bush had already checked out of his hotel when he got call.

so all the speculation about who romney will pick is fun, but i wouldn't take any of it too seriously. my guess is he won't pick sarah palin, but otherwise, who knows? back in a moment.

>> schieffer: some of our stations are leaving us now. for most of you we will be back with two top advisers for the candidates, stephanie cutter, the department campaign manager for president obama, and eric fehrnstrom, the senior adviser to mitt romney. we'll talk about the obama campaign's attacks on mitt romney's bain capital record ♪

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>> schieffer: welcome back to "face the nation." joining me this morning from salt lake city, utalk mitt romney's senior adviser, eric fehrnstrom. and here in the studio, stephanie cutter, who is the deputy campaign manager for the obama team. i want to start with a question to both of you. politico reported this week your campaigns are spent all week, every week strafing each other on twitter. given the opportunity to go big, politico says you go small. they say romney won't give details, obama won't give out an agenda. mark mckinnon is quoted as saying we're in the era of bitter twitter. i guess i would ask you, both-- and eric, i will start with you-- don't you think a

presidential campaign should be on a higher local official than that? >> i'll tell you, bob, it's amazing when you think in the last presidential election, there was no twitter. we just view it as another means of communicating. i don't think it sets the tone for the race like the mainstream press does. but what we have noticed is that stories can inc. bait there and propel themselveses into the daily conversation of the campaign. so we want to be part of that. we want to shape the conversation to the extent that we can. i believe the obama campaign feels the same way. but it's simply another way of communicating with voters. >> schieffer: well, stephanie, do you think it's a little silly? >> well, bob, you know, i agree with eric that it is another mode of communication that we have now that we didn't have four years ago. i mean, in four 82-- eight years ago we didn't have facebook. so this is a continual building of new communication tools as we move through presidential elections. you know, it's not a replacement for a candidate laying out his agenda or his vision of where he wants to take the country.

absolutely not. it is a simple mode of communication. the big users of it, in addition to the campaignes, are actually the media. that's where i see where the news is breaking and where trends are going. so i think it's effective tool but it's not a replacement for laying out larger debate that we're having in this country especially-- >> schieffer: but what about the criticism i hear from people on both sides that, you know, that mitt romney won't give details. he won't lay out details of what he wants to do, and president obama won't lay out his agenda for the second term. i think people are looking for big ideas here, and so far, this campaign seems to be about twitter and about strategy and about tactics. >> well, i'm sure eric has something that he wants to say about this, too, but i'll go first. i think that-- i disagree with you. the president has laid out his agenda. in a speech just over a week ago in cleveland he gave a pretty compelling speech where he laid

out the choice in the election about how we're going to billioned economy, continue the recovery, build it from the middle out or top town and told voters it's up to them to break that stalemate. for mitt romney, i don't think his lack of dough tails and his policies have can anything to do with twitter. but i'll let eric answer that. >> you know, bob, i say not too long ago the campaign published a 140-page book that contained 59 specific proposals from mitt romney to get the economy hugh again. that can be found on mitt romney's web site at mittromney.com. look, the selection does come down to the economy. if people are satisfied with the way things are going, i'm sure that will improve the reelection prospects of the president. but if they believe, as we do, that things could be better, that too many americans are being left behind, that they're struggling to get by in this bad economy, then i think that improves the election prospects of mitt romney. >> schieffer: you know, i will agree with you. you did publish that. there are 59 steps, but people

like peggy noonan, who is no obama supporter, i think it is fair to say, says what mitt romney has to do is put something out there about the economy that people can put their arms around, that they can understand what he's talking about. and she and a lot of conservatives don't see that happening yet. >> well, let's talk about two specific proposals that mitt romney has brought forward with respect to creating a more attractive place for job creators, and that is to get is this corporate tax rate lower. we have the highest corporate tax rate of any developed nation in the world. we need to get that down. we have companies that do business overseas and yet they get double tax. they get taxed by the foreign country in which they're doing business and when they try to bring the profit backs to the united states, they get taxed again. that's something mitt romney would address and something this president has not taken on, and as a result, this economy, as you can see, is sort of bumping along. there's very little growth.

g.d.p. in the first quarter has been revised downward to less than 2%. job gains, monthly job gains since the beginning of the year have been shrinking and shrinking and shrinking. bob, you need time-lapse photography to detect any movement at all in this economy. and i think that's what people are going to be voting on, how they feel about how they're doing, how their neighbors are doing, how their companies are doing. and we think that bodies well for mitt romney because he has a bold plan to get this economy moving again. >> well, i want to make a couple of points based on what eric said. the first, the point you made, bob, about mitt romney's 59-point economic plan, not one of the 59 piece of that plan would create jobs. so that's number one. number two, the corporate tax planue know, the president has a plan to reduce the corporate tax rate, too. the difference is, he pays for it, and he closes loopholeholest send jobs overseas. mitt romney doesn't. his corporate tax plan protects the loopholes that have been sending jobs overseas for decades and creates new

incentives for jobs overseas by not tax anything foreign income of u.s. companies. so, you know, that is not a prescription of how we can grow the american economy here and create american jobs. and i think the american people are waking up to that. you know, we saw over the weekend actually on friday a story in the "washington post" about mitt romney and his partners being pioneers in outsourcing. and i think that for people in ohio and virginia and north carolina, who have been watching as outsourcing has destroyed their local economies and their local communities, that's really startling when this person who wants to be the president of the united states actually created the practice of outsourcing american jobs overseas to places like chine and india, and that's a problem. and the problem not only because that's his record but it's a problem because he's protecting those proposals now. >> schieffer: eric, let me-- eric fehrnstrom, let me ask you this question-- we heard reports this week from some governors,

republican governors, who say the romney campaign has asked them to tone down the good news about their economies doing better. did you in fact tell them to do that? >> well, bob, before i address that, and i will answer that question, i want to just go back to what stephanie said, because no american jobs were shipped overseas in any of the "washington post" example that happens cited by the obama campaign. in fact, this was a showed piece of journalism. i hope the "post" will correct the record if they're interested in protecting their reputation, they will do so. the jobs that were cited by the "washington post" and which the obama administration is now attacking were created to support exports overseas. when companies like coca-cola, for example, build a bottling plant in china so they can sell more soft drinks to the chierkz we should be applauding that, because that type of entrance into new markets is what makes our companies stronger, more profitable, and more successful. i don't think we've ever had a

president who has been as antibusiness as barack obama and, frankly, it's alarming that he would be attacking american companies by name simply because they want to expand into new markets. >> schieffer: let me let stephanie cutter respond to that. >> sure. eric, i think that it would be interesting for you to explain the difference between outsourcing and offshoring to the people in ohio, because i don't think they see a difference because it's not actually creating a job in ohio. in many ways it's taking away from them. are you really saying in none of the dozens of bain deals that mitt romney was involved in, not one american job got support overseas? >> i'll tell you this, there's a very simple difference between outsourcing and offshoring. outsourcing is what the obama campaign does when they hire an outside telemarketing vendors. they take functions and allow vendors to do it instead of handling it in house.

offshoring is the shipment of american jobs overseas. and in the "washington post" story, which the president suing now to attack american companies by name, there are no examples of jobs being taken from the united states and shipped overseas. what you have are companies that are expanding into new markets. we should be encouraging that, not attacking it and this is just another assault on free enterprize by president obama. it's one of the reason this economy is not moving at the pace it should be and why millions of americans are left behind. >> schieffer: we're running out of time. but quickly, mr. fehrnstrom, did your campaign tell these republican governors not to be talking about how good their economy is doing, how much better it's doing? >> no, of course not. that was a story that concerned governor scott down in florida, and governor scott's administration came out, they denied it. look, there are no doubt there are republican governors who have unemployment rates doing better than the national average, but i don't think any of them, whether it's governor walker up in wisconsin or governor kasich in ohio or

governor rick scott in florida are happy with the level of unemployment. what they're looking for is a partner in the white house who can work with them to drive that unemployment rate down even further. >> schieffer: i'm sorry we have to end it there. thanks to both of you. if you made a list of countries from around the world... ...with the best math scores. ...the united states would be on that list. in 25th place. let's raise academic standards across the nation. let's get back to the head of the class. let's solve this.

>> schieffer: we're back with our political roundtable. four weary travelers have been out on the campaign trail. joe klein from "time" back from a 21-day road trip through eight battle ground states, held about 40 meetings talked to everyone from banjo players to geographer. another road warrior, dan balz, the chief correspondent of the "washington post." plus our own campaign green team, chief white house correspondent norah o'donnell and political director john dickerson. the question is being begged, what did the banjo players say about the campaign? >> it was actually a fiddler, a retired meter reader who supposedly is the great american fiddler. but what people were saying on-- you know, this is the third year i've done this sort of trip, and when i went out two years ago, people were scared to death. last year they were kind of frustrated. they wanted to see washington

make some deals-- >> schieffer: playing a slightly different tune. >> this year they're really screeching to fulfill your metaphor there, they're just really angry that nothing has gotten done. they have-- you know, they're pretty angry at both the candidates and, you know, there's a real mood of frustration out there this time. >> schieffer: what are you finding, dan? >> very similar. there's clearly a great deal of frustration with washington and their inability to get anything of consequence done, particular plea in any timely way. there is clearly disappointment in president obama that what he promised to do he's not been able to do. and there's-- actually there's a lot of lack of knowledge about governor romney. people still don't know him very well. the obama campaign is work furiously to try to disqualify him in this period before he can define himself. and the romney campaign thinks that economic issues are the paramount issue of this campaign. and that as eric fehrnstrom said, if conditions are not

getting any better, then they have a very good chance of winning the election. glief two have been traveling, too, norah and john, but there's some news going on back here in washington, d.c. and there may be a whole lot more this week because the supreme court could rule as early as tomorrow on whether to throw out the president's health care plan. what happens, john, if the court throws this thing out? >> well i don't think we know. i think it's bad for the president. i think, you know, this was his signature plan. this is the thing he banked everything on. i think romney is able to say, "look, his priorities were out of whack. he should have stayed focus on jobs. here he was off doing this thing" and he's kind of gotten a big thumbs-down for voters not paying attention to every detail, it looks like a kind of anti-seal of approval. on the other hand, for romney. he's not been too specific about much of anything. this creates a moment where he has to get specific "so what are

you going to do" is the question. that gets him in a tricky place. he was for the mandate in massachusetts. he gets into a fight where it's a choice between his plan for the future and the president's plan for the future and that's a fight the president wants to have. so if he can get through this bad news, the president gets into a debate for mitt romney that might actually not be so great for mitt romney. >> one of the main rationales for conservatives and businessmen we saw during the primary debate was repeal and replace obamacare. if the supreme court strikes down the mandate and takes out the preexisting condition, you can make the argument it neutralizes it for the republicans. the president can put the onus back on mitt romney. he can say, you wanted to repeal it and replace it with. what are you going to replace it with? or you in congress are you going

to move forward and protect those with preexisting conditions who can't get coverage? if there's a repealing of the mandate and if the preexisting conditionconditions are taken oe probably going to see a spike in health care premiumes, because the coverage of preventive care stays in there, the allowing of children under 26 stays in there. this is still a really interesting debate whichever way this turns out by the supreme court. >> first of all, we're kind of jumping the gun here. as i watched the news coverage today everybody seems to assume it will be overturned. it may not. but if it is, if it is, that's not a good thing for the president. i think people will say he tried to do something that was unconstitutional. as for the premiums, people already are getting huge premium spikes this year because the health insurance companies have been wanting to blame that on obamacare. the most amazing thing about this bill is that nobody knows what's in it. when you actually talk to regular human beings out in the

counry, nobody knows what's in it. i blame the president for that, by the way. >> i think public opinion on this is a little bit like we had in iraq in 200chic. people made up their minds what they think about this bill almost irrespective of what the court decides on it. i think, also, that the energy on this issue has always been on the side of the opponents. and i suspect that almost no matter what happens this week, that's likely to be the case going into november. >> schieffer: let me ask you about something else that might happen here in washingto. in washington. the house may vote to hold the attorney general in contempt. is that likely, john, do you think? >> the house could do it. the question is what does it matter in terms of politics? the trick for the shows both t to-- their base loves this issue here, and, also, if you talk about this plan here, that the u.s. government allowed guns to go over into mexico and then there was a murder committed with one of these guns, that just sounds like incompetence.

then the justice department said that, well, the a.t.f. didn't know about it, alcohol, tobacco, and firearms didn't know about it. well, they did. and it just looks like bungling. they have a case to go after the administration here. on the other hand, as john boehner knows, you can't spend too much time on this. the number one issue is jobs. you don't want to look too fixated on this. you have to hit it and move on. >> chairman issa was asked twice this morning whether he believed there was white house involvement in the cover-up. he said twice no. that's an interesting bit of news this morn as they're about to take the unprecedented step of holding the attorney general in contempt. there are a lot of people that think there should be a message sent to the department of justice on this, but there's also a political case to be made that the democrats could really hit the republicans for not tackling the transportation bill, student loan bill. there are a lot of other things on the agenda that have to be taken care of. >> schieffer: but do you all really think-- you do have a

republican majority in the house. do you think they will actually vote to-- >> i think it's an open question. >> they might well. you know, this was a boneheaded program on the part of the department of justice. but what we've seen time and again from the clinton impeachment on through the wisconsin recall to now is that the public really doesn't like this kind of games playing. it's a waste of time. >> schieffer: what happens if they do vote, do the capitol cops go over to the justice department and arrest the attorney general? does the f.b.i.-- >> my guess is this will be an argument that will go on for a number of weeks if not months without any clear resolution. that's where i predict this is going. >> schieffer: where do you guys think this campaign is right now? i think it's so close-- it may be as close as any campaign i have ever seen. >> having been in virginia, ohio, iwar, it is right down the middle. it doesn't feel like you can find swing voters anywhere. it feels like there are about a

dozen in each of these states. it's about turning out the base. it feels so close in all of those states. >> i found some swing voters in ohio and michigan. one of the interesting-- john's right. it's a very, very close election. it's going to stay within the 49-yard line, the poll, but in ohio and michigan, the alto bailout has meant an awful lot. it meant the economies didn't collapse. in ohio the unemployment rate is lower than the national rate. the president's getting credit for that. there are people who really don't like the president and his leadership and there are people who kind of like him but i haven't been able to find one person who is madly ecstatic about mitt romney. >> i think we're in the defining stage right now, the defining of the candidates, and in some ways, mitt romney is now beginning to get the scrutiny that he hasn't so far, and certainly, the obama team is hoping that that becomes the case because very few people still know. i think the lack of specificity of mitt romney's policy proposals is something that was evidenced on the program last week.

his failure still to talk about what exactly is his long-term solution on immigration will require scriet me and that will continue to be part of the story. and it b it will be after the conventions and the debates. but right now it's a lot about what romney's past record and obama's, too, in termses of his failure on the economy. >> eric fehrnstrom was right, you hear it an awful lot, even among obama supporters will about his failure to lead, his failure to lay out the exact proposals for deficit cutting and other things. >> i think the electoral map still looks at this point as though it's a little easier for the president than governor romney on the other hand, i think the whole map could change significantly if you begin to see a rise in romney support. ohio for romney is a critical state. if he loses ohio, a, he's lost the rest of the midwest, some of those states he'd like to put in law. and i think it creates a path

for him that's almost impossible-- >> schieffer: we all know it will be about the economy but what could be the tipping point? >> bob, i think the tipping point is still in a sense-- we're in a structural election. economic issues and economic statistics are going to guide people's perception over the next two or three months, and by labor day, i think, people will have a sense of where they really are. if these economic numbers next month and the month after are no better than we saw last month, then i think the president is very, very vulnerable. >> schieffer: i think the debates this year are going to be popular crucial. >> but they always are. >> schieffer: stay with us. we'll be right back with our "face the nation" flashback. [ male announcer ] are you paying more

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that delivers america's fastest, most consistent, most reliable internet. and now, it's faster than ever. you get speed you can count on... even when everyone at home is online at the same time. plus, the best tv picture quality. tired of cable's inflated bills? get fios for just $99.99 a month for a year with no annual contract. or choose a two-year contract and get $200 back, plus a two-year price guarantee. call 1.866.685.fios. that's 1.866.685.3467. fios. a network ahead. contact the verizon center for customers with disabilities at 800-974-6006 tty/v. >> schieffer: during the 1992 campaign, democratic candidate bill clinton appeared on "face the nation" and tackled a familiar theme-- how do you pass a huge and complicated program without raising taxes. our "face the nation" flashback. >> from cbs news washington,

"face the nation," with cbs news chief washington correspondent bob schieffer. >> schieffer: you're talking about programs that cost billions of dollars, when you talk about health care. how are you going to do that withouting taxes. >> we need insurance reforms. we need to take on the hospital bureaucracies. by first changing the insurance system, and then change the way the rules are affecting them. there are billions and billions of dollars, enough to cover the uncovered americans in this country, in insurance reform and other cost controls. so i think that the-- before we agree to spend one red cent on this, we need ton that we have squeezed every last penny out of a system that we know is the most wasteful in the world. we spend more money on health care and cover fewer people than any major country in the world. and the reason everybody assumes it is going to cost a lot more money to provide universal coverage is nobody so far has been willing to take on the cost control issues. i will do that.

>> schieffer: clinton tried to tackle health care early, put his wife, hillary, in charge of the program but it soon bogged down in a partisan standoff, and one year later, the democratic leader in the senate announced the legislation was dead. surveys showed that after a year of intense debate, lobbying, and millions of dollars in advertising, that people knew less about the program than they had in the beginning. our "face the nation" flashback. all energy development comes with some risk, but proven technologies allow natural gas producers to supply affordable, cleaner energy, while protecting our environment. across america, these technologies protect air - by monitoring air quality and reducing emissions... ...protect water - through conservation and self-contained recycling systems... ... and protect land - by reducing our footprint and respecting wildlife. america's natural gas... domestic, abundant, clean energy to power our lives... that's smarter power today.

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>> schieffer: that's it for us today. i'll be away next week. norah o'donnell will be sitting right here. ( laughter ) captioning sponsored by cbs captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org [ male announcer ] are you paying more and more and more for cable -- and enjoying it less? upgrade to verizon fios internet, tv and phone

for just $99.99 a month, guaranteed for a year with no annual contract. or choose a two-year contract and get $200 back and a two-year price guarantee. fios is a 100% fiber-optic network that delivers america's fastest, most consistent, most reliable internet. and now, it's faster than ever. you get speed you can count on... even when everyone at home is online at the same time. plus, the best tv picture quality. tired of cable's inflated bills? get fios for just $99.99 a month for a year with no annual contract. or choose a two-year contract and get $200 back, plus a two-year price guarantee. call 1.866.685.fios. that's 1.866.685.3467. fios. a network ahead. contact the verizon center for customers with disabilities at 800-974-6006 tty/v.