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tv   Dateline NBC  NBC  January 31, 2016 7:00pm-8:00pm EST

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we'll be back here tomorrow night when the first votes are cast. thank you for watching. good night. his arms raised. he grabbed me, i was shaking. i said stop stop. what are you doing? stop! >> reporter: thed a charmed life by the beach. surfer dad. >> he was a stud you, know, i'm not gonna lie. >> reporter: do-it-all mom. >> she would do family-oriented things. >> reporter: and a picture perfect home, tucked away on badger lane. >> this is our little american dream. >> he wanted a lifestyle where he could be there for his family, for his kids. >> reporter: that's what made
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>> it was dark when they got there. >> they found the body upstairs in the master bedroom. >> the victim was clearly shot with a handgun. >> the kids are missing, julie was missing. >> reporter: was this a case of murder? >> this is our neighborhood. these are our friends. you're just in utter shock! >> reporter: there were secrets in that house. who would unlock them? >> i didn't want my friends to know, i didn't want my family to know! >> devious. manipulative. >> this was our best friend. it didn't have to end like this. >> reporter: i'm lester holt and this is dateline. here's keith morrison. >> reporter: grief, like the in waves. ride the waves or sink, it seemed to say. ride them again and again. >> it's just a shot through the heart. >> reporter: once there were four fast friends. four tall men, before it all
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their new meaning. >> it didn't have to end like this. >> reporter: no. except it did. and when it did? >> just felt like someone hit you in the stomach really hard and wanted to cry. >> reporter: what could they do? ride, it's what harp would have wanted, after all. >> reporter: harp. jason harper, sports loving, outdoors loving california boy. with a childhood best friend named paul severns who, as they grew, became tall paul. >> we were always together. in the early years, he was always taller than me. but then i caught up to him. we were both the two tallest guys in school. >> reporter: so when they got to high school, there was one sport they were very well-suited to play, volleyball. >> harp was a stud, you know. i'm not gonna lie to you. i'm not gonna sugar coat it. he was -- he was -- you know, mvp on the team. >> reporter: yes, and went on to play at ucla.
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here they are together on ucla bruins talk, on public access tv. >> everybody came back and goes we're not going to lose or whatever and we came back and haven't lost since then. >> we can beat a lot of the teams out there. you know, we could definitely be a final four contender. >> i always said we -- we -- we ran the same speed. and so we would run the warm-ups the same speed. and we would end up talking together. and we became roommates throughout college. and, just a great guy, a great friend. >> reporter: quiet, mind you. shy, at least around the girls. >> he wasn't quite the ladies' man. you know, i'm not gonna lie to you. >> reporter: and then one night back in 2000, four years after he graduated from college, harp met a girl at a party. tall paul was there, too. the girl's name was julie cihak. >> she kinda zoned in on harp right off the bat and started to talk to him. >> reporter: so i get the impression she picked him. >> yeah, exactly. >> reporter: it went pretty fast after that.
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julie was pretty and smart, and from a well-to-do family. still, when harp proposed just three months after he met this first real girlfriend. >> i felt like it was the first girl that he really loved and there's a lot that goes with that and i just didn't want to him to be, have the wool pulled over his eyes. >> reporter: but, they stood up for him, and the marriage at san diego's historic hotel del coronado was a great happy party. >> i remember the first dance. they were in this giant ballroom. and they did a very nice ballroom dance, you know. and -- and harp had -- >> reporter: go figure. >> a big old smile on his face. >> reporter: they moved to the seaside, to carlsbad, california, just north of san diego. and jason harper signed on as a math teacher and volleyball coach at a local high school. >> jason was your typical southern california surfer, beach volleyball, public school teacher. >> reporter: where he met the third of those tall friends,
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at the same school, carlsbad high. >> on a campus of 3,000, 2,500 students, you tend to notice other people who are at the same eye level as you. and jason being 6'6" and myself being 6'9" -- >> reporter: there aren't too many people at the same eye level as you. >> no, no. so you -- you do notice, after a while, who they are. >> reporter: the two became fast friends.ick up basketball, poker. guy things. and then jason and julie started, then jackie. j names. >> even if that meant not playing cards with the boys or , those kids always came first. >> reporter: so th -- it -- th -- were there times when yohing with him, sorry, i gotta stay home. >> abs -- absolutely. >> yes. a brand new gated place not far from the beach.ghbors. >> reporter: so many
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even know who your next-door neighbors are, but this, that's not like this place at all, right?all. >> julie ran the mother/tot group in the neighborhood. so she would actually organize all those activities. she was a good mom.ved with her kids. >> reporter: and hard to know exactly just why tjoshua, their third, was born in 2011. julie just didn't seem the same. by, you would see less and less and less of her. >> she would say, hi, and get in her car and drive away really quick. >> reporter: but she -- like she was hiding from everybody. >> yeah.ut jason? >> he was part of the permanent landscape of our neighborhood. he was there every day. i mean, literally, every day. >> every day. >> a very hands-on father.t my door to see if he's out there and wave, you know, and we'd walk over. bring the kids over and walk on the driveway, and the kids would start playing right when we got home from school.n, it was an august morning in 2012. >> you don't know what's happened but you know it's not something good. your some --
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rocket scientist. something was awfully wrong. >> there was crime tape.he crime tape and there's a police officer stationed at the base of my driveway. and so i ask the police officer,d, "no. no, it's not." >> what had really happened that morning? when we come back. nd the body upstairs. the kids were missing. julie was missing. >> worry about their kids? >> number one, their safety. ay? share every minute of it. right now at at&t, buy the samsung galaxy s6 and
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>> reporter: at 7:30 in the morning on the 8th of august, 2012, michele cullen gazed on s, the crime scene tape, and asked the cop in her driveway what's happening? >> you need to go inside. television. >> reporter: a policeman told you this?that, yes. what are you talking about? >> reporter: that was apparent soon enough, when they wheeled out the body bag. one of our colleagues and friends called us and said, "i think something really bad has happened. they say that they found a body e master bedroom. and it looks like it's jason's house." >> reporter: bit by awful bit,
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the details. been hidden under a blanket and other debris. one bullet still lodged in the chest.least, quick. the victim, was the beloved member of that tall quartet. the neighborhood dad, jason harper.rible enough. but it wasn't all. >> the kids are missing. julie was missing.nfolded, we were in complete shock. >> reporter: this afternoon officers continue their investigation at the harper residence. >> we're all in shock. jason's dead. out. and they're saying, "have you seen this woman?" >> and where is she? >> and flashing her plates and her picture. >> reporter: wow. >> on the news.o what happened? home invasion? kidnapping? murder suicide? >> reporter: did you worry about their kids? >> oh, yeah. >> that was the worst part. >> absolutely. their safety. number one, their safety. are they okay? >> reporter: but the carlsbad police department had one piece
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lacked. which came in a strange phone call at 11:00 pm the night before. sergeant jeff smith, was the lead detective. >> the watch commander working that night, got a phone call ey, asking him to go -- or the police department to go do a welfare check at a residence. >> reporter: a welfare check? odd request. >> reporter: who was this lawyer who called? >> it was attorney paul pfingst. >> reporter: that paul pfingst?ed to be the ex-d.a., and now criminal defense attorney who knew the ry well. he'd called an internal extension that unlike a ecorded. the cops went to the house, and they found jason's bodthe kids, they were gone. so police talked to paul pfingst
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julie was not a victim. she was his newest client. return of the children to a local children's hospital. cops discovered jason's body, pfingst orchestrated julie's surrender at her father's house. >> reporter: did she talk to you? >> no.ter: but her attorney spoke with local reporters. >> she's very upset. she's upset about her children.set about her health. she's upset about seeing that basically at this point her life is in shambles. it's a catastrophe all the way around.o it was. but what happened in the bedroom? neither julie, nor attorney pfingst, would say.launched an investigation to figure out what was julie guilty of, if anything?pecialists interview the two older
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a typical summer morning.tween eight and 9:00 a.m. -- >> when you were watching cartoons. >> uh-huh. yesterday morning and you heard the loud -- >> clunk. >> clunk. >> reporter: a thud. that's all they could tell ya? >> a loud thud. >> reporter: did they know at that point that their father was dead? >> i don't believe so.y must have been very confused. >> yes. >> reporter: frightened? >> yeah. young children. >> reporter: and the only things you know are there's a guy with a bullet hole and the kids heard a thump -- >> reporter: not a lot to go on. >> not a lot. >> reporter: so what did you do next? >> we talked to neighbors who'd possibly seen things.at they saw miss harper leaving right around 9:05 in the morning, and exiting ed community. >> reporter: so now you know when they left the house anyway. >> roughly. >> reporter: now the detectives to retrace julie and the kids' movements. during their interviews, the
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a coffee shop first.that point they went to a local play-works, or jumpy type house place. and from the kids' accounts that's where they stayed for a nd played. and we were able to corroborate that with cell phone analysis. >> reporter: which led to a ught. if the thud the kids heard was jason being shot, then the coffee run and the play date ward while he lay, wounded or already dead on the bedroom floor. on august 9th, two days after cal examiner conducted an autopsy and that killed jason. it came from a .38 caliber handgun. we did find a gun in the home where mr. harper was found. >> reporter: but it was not the d jason.
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only suspect wasn't talking. that there was an argument between the two, and a gun was produced, and she shot him. and we were -- we didn't know why. >> reporter: not an easy circumstances. oh, there was an answer. but do you think anyone intendedthat? coming up -- >> i don't understanned. you know what i mean? >> new clues. >> she was preparing for change in her life. rnals and secrets in the attic. >> my wildest dreams, i would
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r: by the time julie harper's attorney arranged for her to turn herself in, her husband jason had been dead for a day and a half.body could understand. they appeared to be a solid couple. why would she shoot him? that's what carlsbad detectives igure out. julie wasn't talking, so they interviewed friends and family, and peeled back the layers.smith learned that a whole year earlier, julie sent a friend some envelopes for safe keeping. >> reporter: what was in the envelopes?ritings, bank statements, personal history. >> reporter: in that personal history, signs of a marriage that wasn't as perfect as it seemed.ote that "jason yelled at me" and, "maybe divorce is the answer."
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that their marriage was going towards the end, or divorce. >> reporter: whatever was going keep to himself, said his teacher friends andy and kristin. >> he would never say any ill t very personal and -- and private. >> reporter: but it was pretty clear, they said, that the down. >> arrangements were being made. >> jason's parents actually bought a house down here. and it had enough room for jasonds. i mean, they were preparing for him to be able to leave. >> reporter: julie seemed to be getting ready to get out, too, in fact, she filed for divorce five days before the incident. and that same week made some nancial transactions. >> days prior to -- miss harper had taken out about $10,000 in cash out of a dormant account that was under her daughter's name.d written two $4,500 checks to herself. and it was against a credit card in mr. harper's name.
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cash. >> we found that to be very suspicious. >> reporter: deputy district attorney keith watanabe was on day one. >> reporter: did it suggest to you that she had been hoarding money in anticipation of something? >> she was preparing for a fe. >> reporter: but did the change urder? julie's father, john cihak, lived here. 30 miles or so from jason and julie's house.s where julie and the kids spent the night after the shooting. so sgt. smith got a search ace and found nothing useful. there were other guns but none of them fired the bullet that killed jason.ttle frustrated, eight days later he got a second search warrant. and this time there was something new. the garage attic, in a spot they searched the first time around, a blue
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between searches. up this blue backpack and they discovered julie harper's wallet, credit ssport, a different gun and jason harper's last will and testament. >> reporter: also, jason's cell phone.ies removed and call and text history cleared. the backpack gun was also clean. oot jason. this had to be a getaway bag, the prosecutor decided. she must have packed it up after she killed jason. >> that's the onlyerson's last will and testament. it's because she realized he was dead. >> reporter: julie's actions shooting raised all sorts of questions. and foremost for the prosecutor was, did she plan this? and, if so, for how long? >> we believed we could prove first-degree murder, not on the t she had planned this
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the shooting had taken place. instead we were relying on the ven during this argument, she took enough steps in order to get the gun, that this would've been planned and f it was only for a minute or two before the shooting. >> reporter: and that's enough? >> in california that qualifies er. >> reporter: so that's what he charged her with.urder. julie pleaded not guilty but otherwise kept her mouth shut and sat in jail. but strange details kept coming out.d said at her preliminary hearing about the blue backpack.y been $39,000 inside that backpack. >> reporter: julie's father admitted that he found the cash k and gave it to julie's lawyer to help pay for bail and legal fees. >> reporter: what did you think when you heard that?ams i would've never expected that.
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dad testified at the prelim onlyanted immunity. he initially pleaded the 5th. and even though bail was family eventually coughed it up. and after more than a year in jail, she moved back into the lane three doors down from michelle miller. >> she knocked on my door to let me know that she was back and talk someday when this is all over. >> reporter: what did you say to her? >> i was just completely shocked.ieve it. >> reporter: all those comfortable notions about her neighbors and maybe michelle didn't know them at all.erstand why any of it happened, you know what i mean? he was our friend and he's gone. i don't know who she is.n julie finally did start talking,
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death, his wife, julie, the three children went on trial for first-degree murder. >> she didn't look like a murderer, if there's such a thing. though deputy d.a. keith watanabe had never been able to talk to julie, had never heard her ent. his theme was something he called the "deterioration of julie harper." >> her life had become a rms of her marriage, her children, her health, her financial state.as seriously abusing her prescription medication. >> reporter: "look at this," he told the jury. pill bottles.ed from an auto-immune disease," he said, "this made it clear she was abusing powerful medications."e prosecutor, "look at the mess in julie's bedroom. as if a hoarder lived here." when jason's body was found, it lanket and surrounded by debris. the bullet that killed him
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the back. what happened? "julie must have shot jason 9:00 am," said the prosecutor, "while the kids were downstairs watching cartoons." a neighbor saw julie leaving er 9:00 am. and she was at la costa coffee roasting 40 minutes later. >> she wasn't crying. she wasn't upset.e to call 9-1-1. it showed that this woman had a calloused heart.urdering her husband and really had the wherewithal to be able to go out into public and appear to be perfectly normal.it was clearly murder," said deputy d.a. watanabe. but was it?not talk, not once, to the police, or the prosecutor because her attorney never allowed it. time. defense attorney paul pfingst
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julie harper. she did it. she shot him, but, she said, "it wasn't murder." why?he said jason harper, so beloved by friends, and neighbors, and colleagues was, in private, an angry, abusive husband.ou videotape jason telling you -- >> reporter: and here was her proof, she said. here was her secret recording ofit, over money. >> i don't want to enable your horrible money waste! and your poor credit score and everything else.o enable that. it's horrible! >> reporter: and then, this --tch. figure it out. i can't help it if you're too dumb to do it. too lazy.t least i have more words in my vocabulary than you do. seems like the b-i-t-c-h is the only word that you can use.t. right now, that is darn right. cause that's what you are.
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"it got worse. it got physical." he grabbed my wrists and my hand so forcefully and twisted it so hard that i mean it was t day. >> reporter: remember, jason was a 6'6" athlete, about a foot taller than julie. by then they slept in separate rooms. she said, when he got angry, he came to her room >> slamming me up against the wall face first. you saying? >> i said, "stop stop! what are you doing? stop!" >> reporter: julie told the jury that jason raped her about 30 times. she was so frightened she stashed a gun under her pillow, just in case.
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of jason, yelling and screaming.s, you know, using some curse words, and, "god i'm so sick of this [ bleep ], you know, where's my [ bleep ] computer?" d, said julie, that she'd hidden his computer.s all red, and he was just, you know -- his nose scrunched up, his eyes he'd just get this look of absolute rage and hate, but this was, i don't >> what did he attempt to do to >> he grabbed me, and began
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somehow managed to sort of free pulling away as quickly as i could moved from there ac >> what did you do when you got to the bed? >> i grabbed my gun from under my pillow. derringer .38 caliber handgun. >> he was coming towards me withd, and he said, "i'm gonna kill you, you [ bleep ] bitch!" and i was shaking, and i was lding on to my gun tightly.
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d the loud noise. and he was still like coming at me. and then all of a sudden, he oze, completely and just like l forward at me. >> reporter: just like a tree, the athlete, the volleyball coach, the math teacher, was dead.s julie's story, that she was an abused woman, who shot her husband in self defense.e, did you still love your husband? >> yes. >> did you have -- did you want him to be dead? >> no.ter: but now, for the
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face a prosecutor with a lot of questions.> coming up -- the crime recreated in court. >> do you need a moment, ms. harper? witness outmaneuver the prosecutor. >> this is the smartest woman s-examined in my life. >> when "dateline" continues. itch to sprint and save 50% on most verizon, at&t and t-mobile rates. you get the new lte plus network to switch, up to $650 per line. only from sprint.
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he was coming towards me with his arms raised.finally julie harper told her story. her husband, jason, was an abuser and she killed him in orter: what did you think when you heard that? >> it hurt my stomach. it hurt my heart. >> yeah. >> she could say anything she wanted because there's two sides's not here to tell his. >> reporter: the story was not a big surprise to deputy da watanabe.ecutor who'd specialized for years in spousal abuse cases, he just didn't believe it.r own skin. and she was willing to throw her dead husband under the bus and to do so. >> reporter: well, that's your point of view.
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>> we considered that possibility. under the scrutiny of truth. >> reporter: it was when the prosecutor began his cross ex julie was ready for him. >> as you sit here today, do you believe that your shooting of d on your need to defend yourself? >> i didn't even intend to shoot him.anted to scare him, or to get him to stop. not rape me, not hurt me, or possibly worse.e smartest woman that i had ever cross examined in my life. >> reporter: dodging and weaving. >> yeah. she was able to think on the spot.hose pill bottles, all necessary for her medical condition and prescribed by her doctor. she never abused them, she said.as she said, jason was coming at her when she shot, why then, the prosecutor wondered, did the bullet enter from the
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here and i'm going to have you -- >> reporter: prosecutor watanabe set up a courtroom re-creation. >> okay, i'm going to have r jason just because then i can -- >> reporter: but, things didn't quite play out the way the prosecutor hoped. did julie use this moment to hervantage? >> your honor, the witness is crying now. >> do you need a moment ms. harper? >> no, it's okay.s hands where they were. the record will reflect -- >> she broke down and started crying and was visibly upset in front of the jury.t was maybe not the best strategy on your part then, as it turned out.s a powerful moment for her because it allowed her to really retell the story in an emotional way and bring the jurors into her story. >> reporter: julie was on the e days. and then the jury had to decide, was she a murderer?
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life? was juror number three in julie harper's trial. >> reporter: joseph dyal said he knew early on in the deliberations it wasn't going tock. >> within 15 minutes, we had taken a vote. and it showed we were way, way apart.ach points to the -- to where there was nothing conclusive. >> reporter: on the second day of deliberations, the judge the courtroom. >> we received a note from the jury this morning at 10:06am. the note reads, "we are unable dict on some of the counts. we are deadlocked." >> reporter: deadlocked on some of the counts. but they had been able to reach a unanimous verdict on one count. bring in the jury. >> reporter: this was the moment of truth. did the jury believe julie? >> i'll ask the clerk to read ict. >> verdict: first degree murder. we the jury in the above entitled cause find the defendant julie harper not guil violation -- >> reporter: yes!
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she did not pre-plan and r husband. so it couldn't be first degree murder. but was it 2nd degree? not-premeditated, but still intentional?he jury was hopelessly deadlocked.e declared a mistrial. defense attorney paul pfingst. >> obviously, when there's a murder trial and you get any form of acquittal, that's a good thing. she would have hoped for total >> reporter: so, with a hung jury, and bail already established, julie walked out of the courthouse a free woman. >> did she do it? yeah, she did it.defense? it certainly was after who knowsf the toxic relationship they had, and his incredelt like i've lost a little bit of faith in the justice system. >> reporter: jason's friends just couldn't understand it. >> just felt like, you know, you
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hit you in the stomach really wanted to cry, but you weren't gonna cry. and your eyes started tearing up. >> it was very, very s -- surreal, i guess, you know, emotional.hile the prosecutor thought about whether to charge her again, julie went on with life back at the house on badger lane.e just comes back in the neighborhood. >> and then there she is. >> reporter: down the street, right? >> yeah. >> living life. >> like before. we're like, "is this ever gonna end?"ell. they couldn't know, of course. there was another secret julie s keeping from everyone. coming up -- >> really that devious? us. >> another bombshell and another >> i didn't want my family to know.ghbors to know.
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a jury deadlocked on 2nd degree.weet victory as keith watanabe bit down on frustration. >> the images of her walking outoom as a free woman were tough for me to swallow. >> reporter: still, what he could do was try againgree murder was off the table now. but, he could go for a lesser charge of second-degree murder, which he did.te was set for six months later, april, 2015.h before that trial was to begin. surprise! julie had some astonishing news for the judge. >> the retrial for a carlsbad illing her husband, her attorney says she is pregnant. >> reporter: seven months pregnant, caught everybody by >> she intentionally got pregnant in order to interfere with our retrial. >> really, that devious, in your
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well-planned and manipulative. >> reporter: what's more, julie's pregnancy was highly intentional, in vitro the judge, no choice, really, delayed julie's trial for five months.ith cihak was born on april 29, 2015. no father listed on her birth certificate.ger lane watched and wondered. >> she decided she was gonna walk the baby in the stroller hood. and, you know -- >> it was like nothing ever happened. >> that was very uncomfortable. >> it was like nothing had happened, in her mind. >> yeah. >> and everything was fine. >> everything's fine. fe 2.0. >> reporter: well, not quite, of course. in september, 2015, julie, the orneys, all assembled before a brand new jury, 12 new strangers to win over. except this time, anabe knew what was coming from julie. and so he canvassed the witnesses.
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abuse?jason's mother, lina. >> did julie appear in any way to be fearful to you? >> no. >> did you see any bruises or >> no. >> reporter: julie and jason's eldest son jake, by this time, marriage. >> tell me about how their arguing became worse. >> it just escalated. >> even though the arguing became worse, did you ever see our mom then? >> no. >> reporter: neighbor michele cullen saw jason and julie together five days before death. >> did you ever see anything that led you to believe that she was being physically abused? >> no, never. >> reporter: but julie's sister onfide in her that jason was physically abusing her.very, very angry, was constantly yelling at her, would grab her by her m.
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though. so, why would the jury believe ason did rape her violently, and repeatedly? when julie testified, she asked at entries in her private journals and day planner. whenever they saw the word, "sex," said julie, that was code for rape.e you making notations of days you had coerced sex? >> yes. >> reporter: of course, didn't believe that. but, when he challenged her, was this real emotion? >> now, have you ever called theany of these incidents? >> no. i was very embarrassed. i was very embarrassed that he s doing it. i didn't want -- i didn't want my family to know. i didn't want my neighbors to know. i didn't want my friends to know.anipulation?
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once again, a jury was asked to pass judgment on julieperior court of the state of california. >> reporter: everybody waited, baited breath. in the above and titled clause find the defendant julie harper guilty of the crime fix the degree thereof as murder in the second degree. >> reporter: guilty of second-degree murder. on went the handcuffs, just like that.o was not at all like jury number one. >> no doubt at all? >> no, no, no, no. not at all. no.ut what about the secret recordings, jason yelling at julie? >> i don't want to enable your horrible money waste!emper at times. but the tapes were so conveniently done, it seemed to time when he was at his worst. that's pretty good evidence, but i -- i just had the feeling thated. >> reporter: and how about that
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supposed to mean rape?"sex. then we went to the west, a fine dinner house, had filet mignon." >> say -- saying, "cuddling." [ laughter ]nd then we talked and cuddled more," and et cetera. >> but that meant rape. >> but -- but she would say that meant rape. and that made no sense to us.ct to the first set of jurors from the initial trial, i just don't understand how they could not have found her guilty.ter: and so we made an then behind glass in a san diego county jail. >> i don't think you expected all. would i be right about that? >> you'd be correct in that, yeah. what was really so shocking, wasre all of that independent evidence outside of my testimony. >> reporter: by that she meant on yelling, and her claim that in her diary sex meant rape. and despite what the jury plans.
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through with my husband and the i am planning and working with a couple of people to start the tion" as a charity benefiting victims of domestic violence and their families. >> but first of all, you have to start with getting a jury to e a victim of domestic violence, and that was your problem. >> well, and that's where you go. like, the first jury did believe that.ent people that process information, the same information, same evidence in very different ways. >> reporter: the way friends processed it was that julie tormented a good and decent man, and then threw him under the bus to save her own skin. i think for me was the rape allegations. i just, there's just no way. no way. not harp.now, harp's gone and -- you know, we miss him. and we love him. for her to be put
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it helps heal. >> reporter: and julie? on to 40 years to life in prison. >> and essentially, i'm 42 years old, and it's a death sentence. >> reporter: very true. a question on a lot of minds. >> why did you get pregnant? >> i was such a good parent, andive to another child. and really wanted to be able to love with my daughter who i love more than anything in the world. >> reporter: her other children rents now. the baby is with julie's father, who sent us a statement repeating julie's abuse claim and saying, "the verdict is unjust." him and julie's attorney and her friends and siblings, any of them to sit with us on camera and talk aboutse, to defend her. all declined.
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