``mr. trump will join me in a few ``minutes on this that issue. ``we'll start with the democrats ``where a more traditional split ``has developed. ``think clinton/obama, ``gore/bradley. ``if the clinton folks think ``they've seen this before, ``perhaps they have in 2008, again ``clinton's big lead in iowa and a ``big lead in new hampshire seems ``to have vanished. ``again, the handwringing among ``her supporters have begun over ``what's going wrong. ``if that weren't enough, "the new ``york times" is reporting that ``michael bloomberg is again ``considering a run at the white ``clinton's troubles. ``this morning there is some good ``news, though, for clinton. ``she won the endorsement of the ``"des moines register" ," as did ``marco rubio on the republican

``probably have a greater impact ``among democratic caucusgoers. ``joining me is the former ``secretary of state, hillary ``clinton. ``welcome back. ``>> thank you, chuck. ``good to talk to you this ``morning. ``>> you got it. ``let me start with this. ``your opponent is 74 years old. ``calls himself a socialist. ``started this campaign with next ``to zero name recognition. ``you have 38 of 44 u.s. senators ``endorsing you, 12 of 18 ``democratic governors. ``what happened? ``what's gone wrong? ``save me the we always knew this ``was going to be a close race ``answer. ``>> i think it's actually good ``for the debate that we're having ``that there is so much interest i ``feel on my side and i know so ``does senator sanders on his. ``we have a big choice to make. ``it's exciting. ``i had a great couple of events ``yesterday.

``reach every single voter in iowa ``and we'll see what happens. ``i feel good about where we are. ``we'll find out a week from ``tomorrow. ``if you look at the differences ``between senator sanders and ``myself, we can't wait to make ``progress on the myriad of issues ``we'll be facing in the next ``administration. ``i want to build on the promise ``president obama has made and he ``has a different approach. ``that's what voters are trying to ``determine, which they prefer. ``>> the caucuses sometimes are ``about passion, enthusiasm. ``something in "the new york ``times" from gayle collins. ``hillary clinton is the candidate ``of the aging democratic ``establishment whose supporters ``pray for a low turnout on the ``election day. ``it is not the kind of image that ``makes you go whistling into the ``election booth. ``by the way, she wrote that in ``2008. ``she wrote that in 2008. ``is there a deja vu happening

``>> no, there isn't. ``i can only react to what i'm ``doing, the responses we have ``from people. ``i feel great we have the level ``of enthusiasm that we do and we ``also have a really good team on ``the ground that has been working ``for months to make sure it's not ``just here today, gone tomorrow. ``but people are involved. ``they are really reached out to ``and we believe they're going to ``come caucus. ``the speculation and all the rest ``of it is entertaining, i admit ``that. ``but we're going to keep moving ``forward and do the work we think ``is going to be successful on ``february 1st. ``>> are you worried that ``experience, your long resume, is ``not an asset in this wild year? ``>> no, i'm really not. ``i think at the end of the day ``people take this vote seriously. ``they know they're voting for who ``they prefer to be the next ``president and commander in chief ``and i believe that when i am out ``there talking with people about

``here at home, get economy ``working for everybody, not just ``those at the top, begin to raise ``incomes, which hasn't happened, ``deal with health care, going ``from 90% coverage, which is what ``we have under the affordable ``care act now, to 100% and i lay ``out what i intend to do to get ``there, i can only tell you they ``see people nodding, i know ``people are signing up as they ``leave my events. ``that's what matters here. ``it's very personal and people ``look and they think, can we ``imagine this person to be ``president and commander in ``chief? ``and because of my experience, ``particularly my years as ``secretary of state working with ``president obama, i think that's ``something that people really ``take into account. ``>> what are you willing to -- ``you know, it's interesting, your ``husband used a lot of political ``capital -- you and your husband ``used a lot of political capital ``to do health care. ``president obama, arguably, used ``all of his political capital to ``get health care passed.

``going to be willing to use all ``your political capital to focus ``on? ``you and i both know you ``basically have one big shot at ``one big issue. ``what is it that you're willing ``to use all your political ``capital to do with? ``>> well, chuck, first of all, i ``don't agree with you on that. ``i think there are several really ``important issues, health care ``being one of them. ``we've got to get costs down. ``i met a man on friday who no ``longer can afford to pay for his ``hiv medication. ``i met a woman yesterday whose ``bill she has taken for 25 years ``has gone from a couple hundred ``for $14,000 for the same amount ``of the drug. ``that really hits my heart. ``i know what people are going ``through. ``i'll use whatever tools i can to ``get us lower prices, cap ``prescription drug companies and ``take that on. ``but i'm also going to focus on ``the economy because unless we ``create more jobs and get incomes ``rising and fix the tax system so ``that it doesn't in so many ways

``are not going to get ahead, ``they're not going to feel ``they're getting ahead and ``they're going to still believe ``the government is rigged against ``them which is bad for our ``democracy. ``>> as you know, your opponent ``senator sanders has been hitting ``you on wall street contributions ``and including some paid speeches ``you did for goldman sachs among ``other banks. ``let me ask you this -- why do ``you think one of these big banks ``paid you over $200,000 for a ``speech? ``>> well, look, i gave speeches ``to a wide array of groups from ``health care groups to auto ``dealers and many, many more, and ``i think what they were ``interested in because what we ``talked about was the world ``coming off of four years as ``secretary of state in a ``complicated world, people were ``interested in what i saw, what i ``thought, they asked questions ``about matters that were on their ``minds. ``a lot of interest in the bin ``laden raid, how such a tough ``decision was made and what i

``you know, i think americans who ``are doing business in every ``aspect of the economy want to ``know more about the world. ``i actually think it's a good ``conversation for people to be ``having. ``>> you don't think they expect ``anything in return? ``>> absolutely not. ``you know, first of all, i was a ``senator from new york. ``i took them on when i was ``senator. ``i took on the carried interest ``loophole. ``i took on what was happening in ``the mortgage markets. ``i was talking about that in ``2006. ``they know exactly where i stand. ``and i'll tell you, chuck, it's ``really interesting to me that ``now karl rove has taken money ``from the financial interest ``to run an ad against me to ``influence democrats not to ``support me. ``why? ``ask yourself why. ``he knows number one i know what ``must be done and number two i ``know how to get it done to make ``sure that wall street writ ``large, not just the banks but ``the investment banks, hedge ``funds and everybody else, no ``longer can wreck our economy the

``>> two more quick questions. ``the "des moines register" ``editorial, in praising you and ``your experience, did bring up ``the e-mail issue as one of those ``things that they're frustrated ``with how you responded to it. ``let me just ask you this ``question. ``last week you were asked about ``the fbi investigation. ``are you concerned? ``you said you haven't been ``contacted by them. ``are you concerned this ``investigation is taking too ``long? ``that it's putting an extra cloud ``over your candidacy and until it ``gets behind you, you're going to ``have these issues and michael ``bloomberg even cited it as a ``reason why he's thinking about ``running. ``>> no, i'm not concerned because ``i know what the facts are. ``i never sent or received any ``material marked "classified." ``i cannot control what the ``republicans leak and what they ``are contending. ``and i thought it was ``interesting, chuck -- you'll as ``a political observer understand ``why -- back a couple months ago ``kevin mccarthy spilled the beans ``that the benghazi investigation ``was all about bringing me down, ``something that i suspected but i ``went ahead, testified for 11

``questions, and even they ``admitted there was nothing new. ``and now senator grassley shows ``up at a trump rally yesterday in ``iowa. ``he's the chairman of the ``judiciary committee who has -- ``and his staff have been behind ``and pushing a lot of these ``stories, and announces he's ``there for the simple reason, to ``defeat me. ``i can't control what the ``republicans are doing. ``but i know what the facts are ``and i will just keep putting ``them out there. ``this is something that i think ``is very clear about what ``happened and i know it will be ``over and resolved at some point. ``but i can't control what the ``republicans and their allies do. ``but i think it's important ``voters know what they're doing. ``>> and michael bloomberg? ``your reaction to his potential ``candidacy? ``>> he's a good friend of mine, ``and i'm going to do the best i ``can to make sure that i get the ``nomination, and we'll go from ``there. ``>> so you're not worried about ``him getting in? ``>> well, the way i read what he ``said was if i didn't get the

``well, i'm going to relieve him ``of that and get the nomination ``so he doesn't have to. ``>> madam secretary, stay safe on ``the trail. ``we'll catch up with you soon. ``>> thank you, good to talk to ``you. ``>> now let's turn to her chief ``sanders, who's also on the cam ``>> now let's turn to her chief ``opponent, senator bernie ``sanders, who's also on the cam ``trail in dubuque, iowa. ``senator, good morning to you. ``i want to start with getting ``your reaction. ``i've not heard your reaction to ``this. ``your colleague, senator claire ``mccaskell, said that republicans ``were licking their chops getting ``ready. ``essentially "they won't touch ``him right now because they can't ``wait to run an ad with a hammer ``and a sickle." ``what do you say to her? ``>> well, what i say to her is ``that if she would look at the ``matchups taking place between ``bernie sanders and donald trump ``right now she would find that we ``were 15 points ahead of them ``nationally, that in states -- ``tossup states, battleground ``states like iowa and new

``of them, that i would very much ``look forward to a race against ``donald trump, a guy who does not ``want to raise the minimum wage ``but wants to give hundreds of ``billions of dollars in tax ``breaks to the top two-tenths of ``one percent who thinks wages in ``america are too high and who ``thinks that climate change is a ``hoax invented by the chinese. ``chuck, there would be nothing ``more in this world that i would ``like to take on donald trump. ``we would beat him and we would ``beat him badly. ``>> but as you know, a lot of ``democrats are concerned and not ``a single one of them has ``endorsed your candidacy, i just ``read through that. ``not a single democratic senator ``has endorsed your candidacy. ``not a single democratic governor ``has endorsed your candidacy. ``what does that tell you? ``>> it tells me that we are ``taking on the political ``establishment, we're taking on ``the economic establishment, the ``financial interest in this ``country and we're taking on the ``corporate establishment. ``that is what is unique about ``this race: that, in fact, we are ``trying to make a political ``revolution bring millions of

``process that washington and all ``of these politicians have ``significantly turned their backs ``on. ``so yes we have the establishment ``supporting secretary clinton. ``that's not a secret. ``but the reason that our campaign ``is generating so much interest ``and enthusiasm is people think ``it's time that we take on the ``establishment. ``take on wall street, take on big ``money interests. ``and that's why i believe we're ``doing as well as we are. ``>> well, you have been calling ``for political revolution and ``there have been some critiques ``over it, though, that you're ``sort of narrow in where you call ``for revolution. ``ta-nehisi coates, one of the ``more respected thinkers in the ``civil rights movement these days ``wrote in the "the atlantic" why ``aren't you for reparations for ``having to -- because of slavery ``for african-americans when ``you're calling for economic ``justice on so many other levels? ``why do you stop short on that ``issue?

``that barack obama has, the same ``reason i believe that hillary ``clinton has. ``that is that it's absolutely ``wrong and unacceptable that we ``have so much poverty in this ``country and it is even worse in ``the african-american community. ``that african-american kids ``between 17 and 20 who graduate ``high school have unemployment ``rates and underemployment rates ``of 51%. ``that 36% of african-american ``children are living in poverty. ``this is an issue that we have ``got to address. ``and my intention as president of ``the united states is to be very ``aggressive in dealing with those ``issues. ``to put our kids to work rather ``than see them go to jail. ``to improve our schools. ``that's what we have to do and i ``think that's what the american ``people want. ``>> i understand that. ``but you didn't understand the ``question why you were -- why you ``weren't in favor of reparations. ``>> well, again, the same reason ``that the president is not and i ``think hillary clinton is not. ``>> what is that reason?

``future. ``what we have got to do is ``address poverty in america, ``something that very few people ``talk about and especially ``poverty in the african-american ``community and the latino ``community. ``if you look at my record, and if ``you look at my agenda, raising ``the minimum wage to 15 bucks an ``hour, focusing on high rates of ``youth unemployment, i think our ``candidacy is the candidacy ``talking to the issues of the ``african-american community. ``>> well, let me ask you, though, ``many african-americans hear that ``and some will say okay, he's ``talking about major economic ``justice but an african-american ``raises his hand and says can't ``get that through congress, can't ``deal with this because it's ``politically very difficult, a ``lot of your other plans will be ``politically difficult if not ``impossible. ``>> well, look, this is what i ``think: that is looking at ``politics today as a zero-sum ``approach. ``and what i am try dog in this ``country is say, you know what?

``american people didn't vote. ``80% of young people didn't vote ``in the midterm elections. ``that is why the rich get richer ``and that is why billionaires ``were able to buy elections. ``what we are trying to is do the ``say that in american democracy ``maybe it's a radical idea but ``congress should represent ``working families and the ``middle-class rather than just ``wealthy campaign contributors. ``so, chuck, what i am trying to ``do now is change the dynamics of ``american politics, bring ``millions of young people, ``working class people into stand ``up and fight for their rights. ``when you that, yes, we can raise ``the minimum wage, we can create ``jobs. ``we can make public colleges and ``universities tuition free. ``that is what we have got to do. ``>> in 1988, you talked about a ``major difference between ``yourself and, at the time, the ``sort of insurgent candidate on ``the democratic party, jesse ``jackson. ``and you simply said "jesse ``believes that serious social ``change is possible within the ``democratic party. ``i don't."

``>> well, obviously not, i'm ``running for president of the ``united states in the democratic ``party. ``and, by the way, when you talk ``about my relationship to the ``african-american community, ``check out how many white public ``officials, elected officials, ``supported jesse jackson in 1988. ``i did. ``and he won my state of vermont, ``he came to vermont, jesse ``jackson is a friend of mine. ``i thought he ran a brilliant ``campaign. ``but what my view is right now ``and the decision that i made as ``the longest-serving independent ``in the history of the united ``states congress, i said if we ``are going to win this race, we ``have to do it within the ``democratic primary process, ``that's what we're doing. ``>> and if you win, apparently ``you're going to have a third ``candidate in the race. ``michael bloomberg has vowed if ``you are on your way to the ``nomination, he's running as an ``independent. ``what's your reaction? ``>> well, my reaction is that ``there will be -- if donald trump ``wins and mr. bloomberg gets in, ``you'll have two ``multibillionaires running for ``president of the united states ``against me. ``and i think the american people

``move toward an oligarchy where ``billionaires control the ``political process. ``i think we'll win that election. ``>> bernie sanders, i'll leave it ``there. ``from dubuque, iowa, we'll see ``you next week, i imagine, as we ``head to iowa to find out what ``thank you, sir, stay safe on the ``trail. ``>> thank you. ``versus cruz, each guy knows the ``other is the obstacle to the ``nomination. ``donald trump joins me next. @ welcome to the world 2116, you can fly acrossttown in minutes or across the glober in under an hour. whole communities are living@ on mars and solar satellites provide earth withr unlimited clean power. in less than a century, boeing@ took the world from seaplanes to space planes, across rthe universe and beyond. and if you thoughtr that was amazing, t

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`` welcome back, as tight as ``the democratic contest is, it's ``the republican race that's ``become to resemble the end of a ``quentin tarantino movie, think ``"reservoir dogs" where everybody ``else. ``jeb bush spent millions ``attacking marco rubio. ``rubio has blasted chris christie ``with super pac adds. ``christie has questioned rubio's ``work ethic saying "dude, show up ``to work." ``donald trump ridiculed bush for ``being low energy. ``bush called trump a jerk. ``and then the non-aggression pact ``between trump and ted cruz ``crashed with each attacking the ``other. ``in fact, here's the latest trump ``ad going after cruz on ``immigration. ``. ``>> sounded like you wanted the ``bill to pass? ``>> of course i wanted the bill ``to pass. ``what -- my amendment to pass. ``what my amendment did -- ``>> you said the bill. ``>> -- is take citizenship off

``it doesn't mean i supported the ``other aspects of the bill. ``>> and here's a cruz ad hitting ``trump on greed. ``>> i think imminent domain is ``wonderful. ``>> it made him rich, like when ``trump colluded with atlantic ``city insiders to bulldoze the ``home of an elderly widow. ``trump won't change the system, ``he's what's wrong with it. `` joining me on the phone ``right now is donald trump. ``mr. trump, welcome back to "meet ``the press." ``>> good morning, and i have to ``tell you, his ad is wrong ``because i never knocked down ``that house. ``i wanted to get the house to ``build a major building that ``would have employed tremendous ``numbers of people but when the ``woman didn't want to sell ``ultimately i said forget about ``it. ``so he's got me bulldozing down a ``house, i never bulldozed it ``down. ``it's false advertising. ``>> all right, i think the ``accusation was that's what you ``wanted to do -- ``>> no, the accusation was i ``wanted to and did do it. ``you know, if you didn't have ``eminent domain, you would ``haven't highways, the keystone ``pipeline because they need it if

``you wouldn't have roads, ``schools, hospitals, i mean, i ``don't love imminent domain but ``you need it or you don't have a ``country. ``>> this race between you and ted ``cruz, hent wants to make it about ``who's the real conservative. ``here's what he said yesterday ``when it comes to you and ``conservatism. ``i want to get you to react to ``it. ``here he is. ``>> perhaps one of the reasons ``that the washington ``establishment is rushing so ``quickly behind donald trump is ``that donald has been an active ``supporter. ``he gave $100,000 to the clinton ``foundation. ``he's actively supported hillary ``clinton as a political ``candidate. ``he supported chuck schumer, he ``supported andrew cuomo, he ``supported emanuel ed ed rahm emanuel so they ``know he will cut a deal. ``>> i know you've embraced the ``idea of cutting a deal but some ``conservatives fear you're not a ``conservative, that 60 years you ``weren't a conservative, you've ``only been one the last eight or ``nine. ``>> most conservatives love me or

``numbers -- fox just came out, ``their numbers are through the ``roof. ``i would haven't the poll numbers ``i have that. ``i am a conservative but i get ``along with people. ``ted cannot get along with people ``at all. ``the biggest problem he has, he's ``a nasty guy, nobody likes him. ``not one republican senator. ``he works with them everyday. ``not one republican senator ``endorsed ted cruz. ``when you think of it, that's ``impossible to believe. ``not one. ``>> i'm curious. ``you've been theying into cruz ``the last ten days on this issue. ``for six months you talked about ``how much you liked ted cruz. ``>> he was very nice to me and i ``kept saying when is it going to ``happen, ted? ``i was waiting because i want to ``counterpunch. ``i don't want to be the first ``one. ``and during the debate which ``everyone said i won he got nasty ``and started hitting me and i hit ``him back. ``anything i said was okay to him. ``anything i said and he was ``really -- look i had people that

``i like the candidates on a ``personal basis. ``during that period of time i ``said come on, ted, when is it ``going to happen? ``i understand ted, ted is a nasty ``guy who is not a very well-liked ``person. ``>> it sounded like -- you said ``you wouldn't vote for him if ``he's the nominee. ``is that true? ``>> i talked about the fact that ``i'm not sure that i can vote for ``him because as you know, he has ``a major issue. ``in fact, illinois is looking at ``it seriously. ``i don't know if he's going to be ``okay to run in illinois in the ``state of illinois. ``he was born in canada, he was ``born on canadian soil, he was a ``citizen of canada -- ``>> can you sign a pledge? ``>> chuck, chuck -- ``>> can you sign a pledge that ``nominee? ``>> that was relating to canada. ``the question was that and ``relating to canada. ``the question is whether or not ``he can run. ``i tell you something, from the ``standpoint of voters in iowa and ``new hampshire and all these ``places that have to vote, how ``can you vote for a candidate -- ``how can you do it when you don't ``even know if that candidate is

``laurence tribe from harvard said ``it's totally unsettled law. ``a number of top constitutional ``lawyers have come out recently ``over the last few days and said ``he's not allowed to run, he was ``born in canada, he can't run. ``so there's a real question and i ``said he should get a declaratory ``judgment. ``he has to do something because ``how can you have a campaign when ``it's very possible you are not ``allowed to run. ``>> let me ask you about ``"national review," i've seen ``your tweets, i know how you feel ``about the magazine and how you ``feel about this issue. ``let me get you to respond to one ``quote from erick erickson. ``he writes this "like the angels ``in heaven who rejoice for every ``new believer, we should rejoice ``for donald trump's conversion to ``conservatism, but we should not ``put a new conservative in charge ``of conservatism or the country. ``what do you tell conservatives ``that will make them believe you ``won't leave the ideology if it's ``convenient or unpopular.

``it really is. ``i was going to hit him hard. ``it wasn't an insulting quote. ``the "national review" is a ``failing magazine and you get ``that. ``they did it because i'll get ``nice publicity. ``i'll say this, ronald reagan, he ``was a somewhat liberal democrat ``and over the years he evolved ``and became a fairly ``conservative -- not overly -- ``but fairly conservative ``republicans. ``he became a great president also ``and i've evolved and a lot of ``people changed positions on ``things over the years and by the ``way, ted cruz has changed his ``position. ``he was a very, very -- he was ``very weak on illegal ``immigration. ``and now all of a sudden because ``of my stance he got strong but ``cruz was weak on immigration now ``he got stronger. ``so let's see what happens. ``but i use the term "ronald ``reagan, i use the name ronald ``reagan and that's pretty good to

``>> you know, just about -- well, ``about 15, 20 minutes ago mitt ``romney put out a tweet saying ``four years ago today he put out ``his tax returns and he believes ``that every 2016 candidate should ``release their returns before the ``first contest. ``just so you know, every nominee, ``mr. trump, has released their ``tax returns going back to 1980, ``but clinton, by the way, hillary ``clinton, we have every tax ``return that her name has been on ``since 1977 in the public domain. ``will you release any of your tax ``returns for the public to ``scrutinized but? ``>> well, we're working on that ``now. ``i have very big returns and i ``have everything all approved and ``very beautiful and we're working ``on that over the next period of ``time, chuck. ``absolutely. ``>> what's the period of time? ``before the voting begins? ``>> i don't know, this is not ``like a normal tax return, this ``is a big tax return and i will ``say this and i'm very proud to ``say it, i think the country is ``run horribly, i hate what they ``do with our money and unlike ``everybody else, i try and pay as ``little tax as possible because i

``money. ``i hate the way they spend our ``money, the way they give it to ``iraq, the way they give it to ``iran, the way they give it to -- ``everything. ``they give it to everybody. ``>> you are going to release it? ``>> i hate the way our ``politicians spend our money. ``i hate the way they give it away ``to everybody but us. ``we have to rebuild our country. ``>> but you will release it? ``>> and i say it and a reporter ``said "that's the most refreshing ``answer i've ever heard on ``taxes." ``because everyone tries to build ``it up, like mitt romney, he ``built it up, tries to build up ``how much he pays. ``it doesn't work that way. ``at the appropriate time you'll ``be satisfied. ``>> finally i have to ask you ``about bloomberg. ``what do you make of the idea ``that if you're the nominee, if ``sanders is the nominee, that ``would inspire mr. boomberg to go ``third party. ``>> michael has been a friend of ``mine over the years. ``i don't know if we're friends ``anymore. ``i would love to have him run.

``i'd do very well against it. ``bloomberg run. ``>> all right, you embrace its. ``mr. trump, i'll leave it there. ``stay safe on the trail, see you ``next week in iowa. ``>> thank you very much. ``>> you got it. ``back in a moment, folks, with ``more on the republican race and ``the republican party's bank shot ``strategy of late. ``support donald trump now to ``defeat cruz then hope somehow ``good luck with that. ``we'll be back. " day to feel alive" jake reese, r " day to feel alive" t jake reese, r " day to feel alive" i accept i'm not 22.

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`` it's possible the republican ``field can be narrowed down to ``two candidates. ``both camps are making the ``electability argument. ``who's right? ``let's look at cruz. ``according to our latest nbc news ``"wall street journal" poll, ``among these five groups the ``republican party has struggled ``across the board. ``more people have an unfavorable ``view than a favorable one. ``republicans, right? ``but now here is how trump's ``numbers look among the same ``groups. ``the negatives are much worse. ``look at where he is among ``african-americans. ``his net negative rating is 72 ``points in the wrong direction. ``in fact, trump's best numbers in ``these groups of voters, ``independents, suburban voters ``and latinos, his worst numbers ``are still better than cruz's ``worst numbers -- excuse me ``cruz's worst numbers are better ``than trump's worst numbers. ``so looking at it by the data at ``least suggests trump would start

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``. `` welcome back. ``while the democrats are ``experiencing the traditional ``mainstream versus insurgent

``in a much different place. ``it appears totally talk from ``which you ared. ``the establishment is willing to ``back trump, at least ``temporarily, in order to beat ``ted cruz now. ``then they'll worry about how to ``beat trump later. ``let me bring in the panel, mr. ``fix, political reporter for the ``"washington post," two of our ``campaign reporters, i got them ``to stay here for the blizzard, ``kristen welker who has been ``covering the clinton campaign a ``lot and kasie hunt, we've had ``you all over the place, most ``recently with mr. sanders and ``david brooks, columnist in for ``the "new york times." ``welcome to you all. ``before we get things started, we ``have this great little trump ``versus cruz this week. ``it's nasty and personal. ``take a look. ``>> right now the washington ``establishment is is abandoning ``marco rubio. ``they made the assessment marco ``can't win this race and the ``washington establishment is ``rushing over to support donald ``trump. ``>> his new line of attack is ``that i've become establishment. ``give me a break. ``[ laughter ] ``because bob dole is a terrific

``better than cruz which i -- ``believe he me, i will do better ``than cruz. ``>> if, as a voter, you think ``what we need is more republicans ``in washington to cut a deal with ``harry reid and nancy pelosi and ``chuck schumer, i guess donald ``trump is your guy. ``>> guys like ted cruz will never ``make a deal because he's a ``strident guy. ``"no, you cannot have that." ``>> as our poll numbers have ``surged, as donald's numbers keep ``dropping, he's getting more and ``more rattled. ``>> he's a very try strident person, ``nobody likes him. ``>> david brooks, before ``"national review" came out, you ``came out earlier in the week ``beggings by clay all of the -- ``the governing wing of the ``republican party you called ``this'm to revolt against both. ``>> this is going to go on for a ``long time. ``this is the iran/iraq war, i ``want them both to lose. ``i think that's going to happen. ``i'm the last person in america. ``this is not trump/cruz. ``this is going to go on for ``months and months and months. ``if you have a attacking b and b

``>> who's c? ``>> it'm telling you, it will be ``rubio. ``right now you have the conflict ``between the philosophical ``conservative wing, which is the ``"national review" crowd, and the ``rogue wing, which is talk radio ``and trump. ``so it's interesting to see how ``that breaks down. ``right now trump has the ``advantage in that because the ``conservative movement is less ``than it was 10 years ago. ``the financial crisis has hit ``people hard and they want a ``government on the side of the ``liberal guy as long as it's not ``filled with liberal values but ``trump in the short term. ``do not panic. ``there will be months of this. ``wait for rubio. ``>> if you are part of the ``republican establishment, you ``should not go through this ``scenario that you just talked ``about, chuck, this triple bank ``shot. ``what you want is in my opinion ``trump versus cruz for an ``extended period of time. ``this idea that well, okay, we'll ``get rid of cruz and handle ``trump, if trump wins, iowa, new ``hampshire, south carolina, there ``is no handling. ``the race is effectively over. ``i think you want cruz to win ``iowa, then trump wins new

``that's the way that a rubio ``emerges. ``this idea that trump will win ``the first four or five states, ``we'll get rid of cruz and insert ``our candidate, that doesn't seem ``to be likely. ``>> kasie, you've been covering ``the republican side for a while. ``david -- i feel like he is the ``last man standing. ``i am starting to question ``whether the establishment can ``even find a candidate. ``>> i think that's why you're ``seeing so many of them turn and ``focus on trying to figure out, ``donald trump? ``most of them feel that trump -- ``and he said this again in his ``interview, trump's attack, that ``cruz is a nasty guy, is ``ultimately right. ``they all feel like he's a nasty ``guy and they feel like while ``some of those numbers you ``schroeder showed ``showed trump's egg in tifrs ``overwhelmingly, they feel that ``it could be worse. ``>> i think ha what's interesting ``in my conversation with ``republican members of the ``establishment, they have shifted ``their own when they talk about ``trump. ``they're now saying he's the best ``person to make deals, he's

``whereas cruz is not. ``and he's also -- ``>> that's panic! ``that's establishment panic. ``>> that makes no -- ``>> we have such a sum ``establishment. ``>> by the way, you will get ``universal agreement. ``conservatives love to go after ``you, on that they will. ``>> that is just embrace ago ``poison. ``i mean there will be an ``inauguration in january, 2017 ``and a man or woman will be ``standing up there, that's where ``abraham lincoln stood. ``that's where fdr stood. ``stood. ``donald trump is going to stand ``there? ``i do not believe that. ``>> you sound like the "new ``yorker" cover. ``it was quite cute. ``it has all these former ``presidents watching donald trump ``on television with fdr with the ``remote and they're all like ``aghast at this. ``>> so there's -- i talked to a ``smart republican consultant who ``worked for a presidential ``candidate -- not one in this ``race but in past races and he ``said, look, yes, this trump

``on, the one question i have -- ``and i think this is ``interesting -- there the a can i ``imagine this person being ``president in a hurricane, in a ``blizzard, being the empathizer ``in chief after a mass shooting ``and that trump -- it's ``impossible for the majority of ``america to conceptualize donald ``trump in that role and at some ``point, though it won't be on ``february 1 and it probably won't ``be on february 9 and might not ``be until march or april or may, ``that reckoning will happen at ``some point and the goal is to ``have someone who looks the role ``of the president, whether it's ``rubio or jeb, which is unlikely. ``but someone else other than him. ``>> that's the argument the ``republican establishment has ``been making ever since donald ``trump got into this race. ``>> june 16, yes. ``>> and here we are. ``and the reality is, the ``challenge for these ``establishment candidates is that ``you still have to prove to the ``voters that you are big enough ``to run for the presidency before ``you get to the point where ``you're handling hurricanes and ``none of these guys -- marco ``rubio, jeb bush -- none of them ``have been able to stand up in a ``way that makes them seem bigger

``>> if he gets an electoral ``victory under his belt if trump ``were to win iowa i think that ``perceptions but starts to ``change. ``and based on my reporting his ``ground game is more robust than ``initially thought. ``>> i'm just wondering, david, ``early-state voters, they don't ``vote with their head. ``they've been conditioned to vote ``idealistically. ``either on the left or right. ``so this is where i think the ``establishment -- both hillary ``clinton and the establishment ``are suffering. ``>> well, at some point but then ``you get to later states. ``at some point these early states ``vote identity more than who's ``going to make the change, who ``will deliver. ``>> because they've been fed ``this. ``>> this is like a big cultural ``event in these early states. ``in the later states i think ``emotions are lower and they are ``more pragmatic, second -- ``something will happen in the ``middle east. ``events will happen and third ``cruz and trump going after each ``other week after week, that will ``start to look ugly. ``>> well, that a buy and then the

``that's the question. ``let's take a pause. ``we'll be back in a moment and ``talk about the democratic race ``with my fine quartet here and ``how hillary clinton's 2016 run ``has some wondering if it's the

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`` with just over a week until ``the iowa caucuses, a lot of ``people are thinking what about ``is best suited to lead the ``country. ``my next guest, robert gates, has ``a unique insight into what it ``takes to be commander-in-chief ``having served under eight ``presidents, most recently as ``secretary defense under both ``presidents obama and bush and in ``his new book it has a topical

``secretary gates, welcome back to ``"meet the press." ``>> thank you. ``>> let's talk about that ``leadership test. ``what is it you wish voters would ``use as a test to decide who to ``support? ``>> i think it's the question of ``who can lead the country and ``equally who can run the ``government. ``government is different and ``especially the federal ``government is different in many ``ways than running a business or ``anything else and people who ``have never run a government ``often have no idea how ``complicated it is and how ``difficult ``difficult. ``if you're a ceo, you don't have ``535 members on your board of ``directors. ``>> you may have 12 or 15. ``you're here, we should talk ``about isis. ``i won't tell you which candidate ``is saying these things, i just ``want you to assess the different ``ideas. ``one candidate "we won't weaken

``them, we will carpet bomb them ``into oblivion." ``another candidate says "you take ``away their wealth, knock the ``hell out of the oil, take away ``their oil." ``another says they want a no-fly ``zone. ``another coalition says you have ``to bring together a muslim ``coalition, sunni and shi'a ``fighting side by side. ``what's realistic? ``>> i think bringing in some kind ``of arab coalition to try and ``help, creating some kind of ``humanitarian corridor or safe ``haven. ``they're both tough but you could ``do them. ``the first alternatives, i think, ``are completely unrealistic. ``and further more wouldn't ``accomplish the job and i can't ``figure out whether those who are ``arguing that really believe they ``can do that or whether they're

``>> the first two you were cruz ``and trump, the second to two ``that you say are realistic are ``clinton and sanders. ``voters are told they can find a ``coalition to do this but are ``they cynical and think nothing ``ever changes in the middle east? ``is that why voters are more ``susceptible to bold or brash? ``>> or simple. ``and the problem is most of these ``problems are not simple and it ``requires -- first of all ``building coalitions in ``washington. ``it will be useful in terms of ``foreign policy and national ``security to have coalitions in ``washington where washington ``speaks with relatively one ``voice, one sum unity before we ``world. ``>> only eisenhower, ford and ``animosity. ``the next president will be ``polarizing. ``just due to the nature of our ``politics. ``that.

``to be but your examples, two of ``them couldn't even win -- one ``couldn't win a full term on ``their own and the other couldn't ``win reelection. ``polarization helps these guys ``win. ``that's part of the problem, ``isn't it? ``>> well, i think the question is ``who can move country and that ``will require reaching out to the ``other side and we have had ``polarizing presidents that ``nonetheless were able to reach ``out to the other side and move ``the country forward. ``after all harks very i , harry truman was one ``of the most unpopular presidents ``in american history yet ``established extraordinary ``things. ``>> you said until you were 10 ``you didn't know his first name. ``you thought it was "gosh darn." ``so you should be on the michael ``bloomberg side of the aisle. ``he is a potential candidate that ``is saying he wants to create a ``campaign that would have people ``on both sides.

``see how a third candidate works. ``elected. ``message. ``>> what i'm interested is a ``candidate for president who ``talks about how to bring us ``together as people, who says we ``have a common destiny and who ``can emphasize that we can work ``together to address problems in ``the country. ``>> wise words from you. ``we'll see if the voters will ``listen to your way of figuring ``out how to decide who can lead ``this country. ``robert gates, congrats on the ``new book. ``>> thanks, chuck. ``>> thank you, sir. `` we'll become be in a moment ``with our end game segment and ``one washington resident who ``thought the blizzard of 2016 was ``the best thing that could

- you can collect rainwaterttto shower with, but there are easier waystt to go green. like taking shorter showers, which conserves waterrr and lowers your bill. you' ll sing long balladstt in the rain and short ditties in the shower. r the more you know `` end game time, the panel is ``here. ``the democratic side, david ``brooks, what did you make of ``clinton v. sanders this morning? ``>> if i didn't know anything

``these back-to-back interviews ``today i would think sanders has ``honed his message and captured ``authenticity and joy and hillary ``clinton hasn't honed her ``message. ``there's a lot of chinese menu ``stuff, a, b, c, d, so you can ``see why he's doing well. ``you have to pick that message, ``hone it, deliver it, velocity. ``>> i think they have a message ``but they don't -- they know it ``doesn't fire voters, which is ``experience counts. ``>> i was struck, chuck, when you ``asked her what her top priority ``was going to be, the number one ``thing she was going to spend ``political capital on, i don't ``feel like she had a clear answer ``about what it was she cared the ``most about. ``she in some ways backed into it, ``talked about health care. ``>> i was surprised she made it ``health care in an odd way. ``really? ``we're going back to the 1990s. ``>> the whole argument is this is ``about the future not the past. ``when i was watching these ``interviews back to back, it's ``remarkable that a 74-year-old ``former mayor of burlington ``vermont, avowed socialist who on

``say i'm not a socialist, he's ``the change and future candidate. ``it's -- the way that she has ``found herself in this race, it's ``deja vu all over again. ``her only benefit is bernie ``sanders does not equal barack ``obama in that bernie sanders at ``least doesn't have support in ``the black community anywhere ``near barack obama. ``so she may benefit from that. ``from her perspective. ``who she is as a candidate is ``still the same, that's the ``problem. ``>> the primary calendar is her ``friend here. ``there's a lot of states with ``large african-american voting ``blocks. ``>> she continues to invoke ``health care because she ``continues to hug president obama ``and his policies. ``it might not be as effective in ``a place like iowa and new ``hampshire but it matters in a ``place like south carolina. ``she's very focused on building ``up a fire ball that the south ``and in those supertuesday states ``in case she does lose in iowa. ``>> it feels like she's setting ``up a march message. ``going to your point, the federal ``message is idealism and she ``doesn't have it. ``>> i think the same is on the

``we'll get more pragmatic, both ``races will be long, some big ``terrorist blow up somewhere, ``she'll look a lot better. ``but right now lacking the joy. ``>> i just -- i mean this with ``trump and hillary, this idea ``that you can simply lose to a ``socialist 74-year-old who no one ``thought had any chance of being ``anywhere close to her. ``the idea that you can lose iowa ``and lose new hampshire and ``people are go on their merry ``way. ``david may be right, that it's an ``extended race with twists and ``turns that she eventually wins. ``that's the only pass that she ``wins a race -- ``>> you know the last pull to ``pull that off? ``their last name was clinton. ``i'm just saying. ``bill clinton has familiarity. ``>> much lower expectations, ``though, chuck. ``>> he had his own bernie ``sanders. ``jerry brown. ``stay. ``>> stayed in forever. ``>> and his own billionaire. ``ross pro. ``>> second round of the come back ``kid in new hampshire. ``>> but, chuck, if you're a ``hillary clinton supporter,

``the beginning, this is the ``toughest part for her, the ``campaigning, the getting out ``there and selling her message. ``>> connectivity. ``>> being authentic. ``but they say she has built a ``ground game in iowa very much ``modeled after barack obama's ``ground game. ``they still think they'll get the ``people out. ``>> "new york times" -- paul ``krugman had a great piece, he ``said "bernie sanders is theary ary ary ``theary ---ary the ary ary ``heir to candidate obama, hillary ``clinton is the heir to president ``obama." ``>> if people want somebody who ``can manage, they'll go for her. ``there's some part of the count ``dry that does want that. ``>> we'll see where they are and ``if they live in iowa. `` we spent a lot of time ``talking about how politicians in ``washington can't agree on ``anything but here in this town ``we can't agree on how much snow ``fell this weekend. ``there was a mixup in the ``measuring process at reagan ``national airport meaning the ``official numbers underestimated ``the amount of snow which had

``some people think our deficit ``gets s s dealt with that way, too. ``but one thing we can agree on, ``it's impossible not to smile of ``d.c.'s most famous chinese ``resident, tian tian tian tian , the panda ``having a lot of fun in the show. ``>> that's what i did on my way ``to work yesterday. ``>> looks like my six-year-old, ``genuinely. ``with fur. ``>> just a little bit more of ``happier. ``>> panda for president. ``i'm going to leave it there. ``next week we'll in in iowa. ``everybody will be in iowa. ``i can't wait. ``see you then.