tom brokaw, the iraq war may be over, but the threat is not. i keep thinking to the tom ricks book "the gamble" in which he talks to ambassador crocker, then-ambassador in iraq and he said the most notable thing for which iraq will be remembered has not yet accepted. and sectarian violence, the prospect of more violence, questions about u.s. responsibility going forward, those are -- those are real concerns. >> tom and i have been talking about that quite a lot. no one knows more about that part of the world than tom does. the fact is we're going to have to be on ready alert. just because we came home doesn't mean we don't have an investment and interests in that part of the world. iran is sitting out there, the whole relationship with israel. what's going on with the arab spring and what that produces in egypt. what happens in syria finally. how the saudis react to all of this. they've not been happy with the united states for the past year, because of the way that we dispatched mubarak, and they said, you know, that's how you treat your friends, are you having a change at the top there? that has to be an important part of the debate in the next year. but my guess is that we won't

hear very much about it, because people don't find a lot of political capital talking about that. >> just to pick up on one point there, there's a question that's hung over the iraq enterprise from day one and it's been this -- is iraq the way iraq is because saddam was the way saddam was? or was saddam the way saddam was because iraq was the way iraq was? is it a fractured, multisectarian country that could only be held together by an iron fist, first by saddam or residually by us? or is it not? we're going to get the answer to that question now. saddam's fist is gone, ours is gone, and the big question not just about iraq but all the arab springs is can they come together and write social contracts to live together in a way tilted forward, and then in a democratizing way. we're going to find out. and a lot of the stability of the world in the next, you know, decade, is going to depend on the answer to that. >> what are we in for is my question. and what are we up for as a country, kathleen? take this on. one of the interesting pieces in the debate is ron paul, who is an isolationist, and does not

believe in much foreign policy, it doesn't seem, and certainly not military intervention. who said, look, we can't go around the world. these are his words. we're just flat broke. we can't go on invading additional countries. whether it's, you know, our level of responsibility going forward in iraq, or the threat from iran, or even how we may have to manage all the consequences of the arab spring. as a country what are we prepared to do? >> well, ron paul will never be president of the united states. for starters -- >> there's a reason he's got a big following. >> well he gets a lot of applause for those lines. and i think part of that has to do with the fact that the american people are exhausted. and for the -- you know, if we were going to shock and awe iraq and be out in three months and here it is nine years later. nobody wants to see our young men and women going back and fighting any more wars. so clearly there is a -- there's a limit to what americans are willing to do. but what happens in the arab spring is the big question. because, you know, we like to -- we cheer the demonstrators, we cheer the democratic movement, we're all excited.

but we're projecting our own values onto those countries. we have a tendency to do that. but democracy is more than voting. it's institutions. it's rule of law. >> i think it has to be said that president obama has kept his promises, and has faithfully executed the foreign policy portfolio of the united states. and that's why it may not be a big issue in this election, but the larger question is a question to look back at iraq, and this has to be done as a nation, and look at a trillion dollars spent, 4,500 lives, and a residual expense by health care benefits. and i want to thank the troops on christmas day and the men and women in uniform who really gave in response to the call for war. but there's a larger question that's got to be litigated, and it's got to be retrospective for lessons learned. the second thing i'd say about foreign policy is, i think, the middle east is crucial. but in a changing world, david, with asia, with latin america, with rising economies, i think the united states also has to

look at the world in very, very different way in the 21st century, because the economic factors and relationships that are going to be necessary for competitive growth in the future are going to be far beyond simply a hyperfocused on the middle east. it's not to dismiss the middle east and its importance. but it's to say that many of the areas of the world are going to be critically important. and i think that we're going to see that played out after 2012. >> well, tom friedman, are we, as a country, going to have to react to chaos or are we going to react strategically to threats and opportunities posed by china? >> well, you know, to marc's marc's point, it's a very good one. it's ironic, i think what, again, if you're writing a book today you'd say how interesting, barack obama has been much better at fulfilling george bush's national security policy than his own foreign policy. now why do i say that?

i think he's really finished the war in iraq and he's prosecuted the war on terrorism, i think really smartly and effectively. but these other issues that marc has raised. how do we deal with china? how do we manage asia? how do we deal with rising powers from india to brazil? those all depend on domestic strength. you could lecture china all you want but if you don't have a savings rate and they're sitting on $3 trillion of your money, you can lecture the middle east all you want, but if you're addicted to oil, see, all of these things now, that are -- we consider foreign policy, and how we manage the world, what they really depend on is totally different domestic politics. and we're not there yet as a country. certainly not obama's fault. >> what i'm saying, david, is that as domestic policy goes, as the strength of our country goes, so goes our standing in the world. and i think that that, i think, perhaps is something that should be a discussion, and should be an issue.

>> we have a tent pole that holds up the world. we supply all these global economies and if this tent pole buckles, they won't grow up in a different america -- >> can i inject this if you look at failures of the president measured by our polling it goes to some of these bigger questions on the world stage, as well. the top response, 24%, that he's been unable to improve economic conditions. and look at two and three, it's leadership, it's too much government spending. these are the kind i want to talk about health care and immigration in a couple of minutes but these are the kinds of things that get noticed in terms of how america is evaluating. >> just to comment on what both of these gentlemen were saying. you know, there is one republican candidate who's been saying these very things but for some reason he can't be heard. huntsman, the only moderate in the group, is at the end of the debate panel and his lips are moving, and nobody's paying attention to what he's saying. but he has said over and over, he keeps coming back to this, particularly as it applies to china, look, we can't relate to these people in just specific ways, it has to be via values. and when america is strong at home, meaning take care of all of our issues here, then america is good.

>> i think, david, really comes down to so much of the political debate has been retro, and it's not looking forward. we're playing off our previous successes and our previous strengths and we haven't caught up to the idea that it's no longer the 20th century and the american century. we're out there having to compete every day now for our place in the global economic marketplace and the new considerations for national security i've been saying for the last couple of years, as we have put a military face on america, almost everywhere in the world, including the middle east, obviously in the subcontinent, especially, the chinese are making deals all over africa, all over central and south america and they're going in and making deals with the government, they're making deals with the tribes, they're extracting national resources, they're building roads. they have a whole different template that they're working off of than we are. >> one of the differences we make in our book, american competitionalism, it's not an honorary degree, it's not an

entitlement like social security, it's your batting average. right now we're batting about $220. >> could i just add to this. our producer chris donovan found this terrific piece of tape that is so on point here i have to play it. it's about the 1990s argument and something that then-senator obama said back in november of 2007, if we have that we'll show it. >> i don't want to spend the next year or the next four years refighting the same fights that we had in the 1990s. >> bingo. tom brokaw. but isn't that the problem? is that we still are fighting those fights. >> well, that's the political year. i mean, part of the reason that we're not going to make a lot of progress this year is it's all about who gets the white house back. everyone knows that that's the great machine that moves the government and defines the culture in this country. and it's fairly discouraging, given all that is going on in the world, and the decisions that we have to make, that you can't operate on two different tracks. that you can have a big, vigorous political debate, but at the same time have something like what's happened this past week, with congressman ryan, and senator widen saying hey, here's something to look at when it comes to medicare.

i found that the most heartening development of the week in many ways. it's not perfect, but it kick-starts that debate that is absolutely necessary to the future of this country in terms of entitlements and who gets them and how much we pay for them. and it was lost in the cacophony of everything else. and that's the issue, i think. >> the issue, too, has to do with where the -- where the government started. where the year started. the horrible, tragic shooting of gabby giffords, the congresswoman from tucson, arizona, and president obama spoke in january at a memorial service about discourse, about politics, about the prospect of working together. and this is what he said. >> we should be civil because we want to live up to the example of public servants, like john roll and gab go giffords who knew first and foremost that we are all americans and that we can question each other's ideas without questioning each other's love of country, and that our task, working together, is to

constantly widen the circle of our concern. so that we bequeath the american dream to future generations. >> and yet our politics throughout the year were so broken, marc morial, and as we look ahead now, one of the things to watch in 2012, the most bitterly divided issue for this administration, health care. the president prevailed, he got health care reform but in the middle of this election year, after all that acrimony, the supreme court is going to weigh in on his signature piece of legislation. >> they're going to be a big player this year, because they've taken, obviously, the affordable health care act and it's constitutionality. the constitutionality of the ability of states to regulate immigration, they've taken the texas reapportionment case, which certainly is going to affect the balance of power in congress. so one big player in 2012 will absolutely be the united states supreme court. but i think the american people, and people who watch the court

don't think that the court is insulated from politics. and one cannot predict if the court, for some reason, were to strike down the affordable care act, there will be a reaction, and there will be a counterreaction politically. it will have an effect on the outcome of the election. the same holds true for the immigration cases, and the reapportionment cases. so maybe the interesting sort of unplayed hand in this election will be what the supreme court does. >> looks like the supreme court probably will, 5-4 shoot down the individual mandate as unconstitutional. >> i can't believe this kathleen, you're putting yourself way out there. >> i'm putting myself way out there. i think that's what we're probably going to see and it will have a huge effect on the election. now whether the rest of it stands is another issue that has to be determined, the severability. >> that's from a policy point of view, what is at stake here, if the individual mandate were to go away, it really does affect broader access to health care. >> it's the engine of the whole plan.

so you see what you have left. >> then you go back -- >> you do see the administration, however, beginning to trim its sails a little bit, setting off to the states this past week more decision making that can be made about how they went to set up the marketplace for insurers. they did the same thing about education, for example. the race to the top, states, you've got more choice going on here. you see them moving in that direction. >> it was so striking about this individual mandate, and the affordable health care act is for some reason it just doesn't exist. it's just another pile-on to the problems of the eroding middle class and the working class. no access to health care. loss of jobs and wages and income. loss of homes, and so there's an underlying issue here, and i've always said that those that oppose the president's affordable care act have a responsibility to offer an alternative proposal. this individual mandate was the

republican plan of the early 1990s. i remember it because the first time i ran for office, it was the plan being promoted by those that were much more conservative. so i don't think that you can disassociate this case from the signal it may potentially send. one way or another, to struggling, middle and working class americans who've seen their conditions really erode. >> the big problem with health care from the beginning has been it was far too complex. that people really couldn't understand all the different provisions. the mandate -- >> have you read it? nobody can understand it. >> even people who have read it and health care experts are confused about how it plays out with the impact is on the best health care systems in the country. at the same time, there's been no one on the other side who has said, look, 17.5% of gdp is way too much to be spending on health care, here's our plan for getting it back down to 12%, 13%.

there has been, as you say, there's been no plan to come along currently. >> well, the republicans -- >> but is the president going to communicate this, tom, as his story? that he was able to bring greater financial security through delivering health care access to so many americans. no longer will preconditions be an issue to force a denial of coverage? can he tell that story in the course of the campaign? >> i don't know if he can tell that story. i really, really worry about him. i'm sure he will tell a story and there will be lots of parts to it. but does he have a narrative about where we are today in the world? connecting it up in what we want to do, speaking frankly to people, and honestly, i go back to where we started this conversation. we're in a different time. the advantages america had coming out of world war ii, a world of walls, we stood astride the world, and we kind of got through a long period by creating a housing bubble, those days are over. you want the american dream now, david, it takes homework times two. i wish it wasn't that way. but it is. and that starts the conversation there. >> the important thing about an election, is an election is about a choice.

so it's not just going to be president obama, it's going to be president obama and a vision, a set of ideas. a countervailing set of proposals. >> i hope he gives us a big choice. >> the second thing that we should never forget is that one of the things that stymied the president's ability, particularly since 2010, is that the control of the house shifted. where is the responsibility, and where is the record, of the majority of the house in terms of what they've been able to pass and what they've been able to put forward? we can't lead the congress in control of the congress out of this equation. the president is the president. the president is not the emperor. the president is not the overseer, and whatever -- and can rule by decree. so i think it's important in this political conversation, you can't look at the president and what he's been able to do or not do. without assigning some responsibility to absolute -- >> so where is the president say i'm here to change the polls, not read the polls?

>> right, and i would also add to that, his narrative thus far has been i've inherited a terrible mess, i've done the best i could but they've blocked me at every step. to a lot of independent and moderates that sounds good like things are bad, but i could have done a much worse job. also, you know, i think this narrative of the class warfare, you know, the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer it pits america against each other and it is frankly un-american. i don't think it's -- >> the problem with it, kathleen, is it's true. if the facts are the facts, i mean, separate what you call it. what slogans you use. the fact of the matter is, we've had a growing economic divide, and the top 10% have really seen their fortunes increase dramatically in the last 125 of 15 years -- >> but you have to appeal to people's better angels. the same gallup report i keep quoting said 82% of americans care most, think that the prevailing message needs to be hope and opportunity. they don't want the negative. they want the positive. >> i think most americans want to get into that top 10%, by the way.

>> of course. >> that's why it doesn't play. the other thing is, i just offer two history lessons for this christmas. one, i've been reading a book about the christmas of 1941 which is right after pearl harbor and what was going on at the white house, winston churchill had come here. you talk about problems, you talk about a challenge, the world was at war. hitler had eaten up most of europe at that point. the japanese were amok in the pacific. we didn't have a military that was prepared, really, for the consequences of that. then i've been reading about the campaign of 1948. harry truman, who had inherited the presidency from fdr, and a lot of people were against him, and the vitriol in that campaign against the incumbent president who had not earned his place, they all thought, we had henry wallace and strom thurmond threatening to run or planning to run as third party candidates, we got through it. those were much more difficult days in many ways than what we're facing now. because, people came with big, bold ideas about how they were going to deal with it. >> it was a much less competitive world.

and that's the thing. we've -- we -- it's true, tom, but we so dominated the world then in a way we don't anymore. >> no, i agree with that, tom. i'm just talking about the culture of politics. >> i appreciate that. >> and -- but the question is then, what with that reality that we don't dominate the world the way we used to in the united states, what changes politics? what gives it a wake-up call to get on to the right track? >> well, i think big, bold ideas. and i think not being afraid to say to the public, to the american public, this is going to be hard. it's not going to be easy. and -- and just, by the way, here's what we're facing. you all know that. and it's not yesterday in this country. it's tomorrow. it's not this morning, as ronald reagan's time, it's tomorrow morning that we have to worry about. >> surprise us. wake up one morning, pick up the paper and say wow, barack obama just took such a political risk. if he took that risk i'd like to take a risk, too, and get behind him. >> they're doing it out in the country and there are smaller ways. you know, they're changing their

business plans, and they're going at education in a different fashion. and they're willing to upset convention in a lot of different parts of the american economy in a parochial way and they feel walled off from what's going on in the national politics. >> the thing that nobody will say, at least if they're running for office, is that the hard lesson here is that our revenue problems have to be solved by raising taxes, probably on everyone. and our spending problems have to be solved by cutting. and nobody will say what is absolutely true. we all have to do, you know, it's going to be painful for everybody. >> we're going to have to take another quick break. we'll be right back in our remaining moments, including some christmas reflections from the former archbishop of washington, cardinal theodore mccarrick after this. there are over twelve thousand diseases in the world.

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and we are back. in our remaining moments here this christmas morning, we want to bring you an excerpt from our press pass conversation, which you can find on our website this week, with a man very familiar to our viewers over the years, the former archbishop of washington, cardinal theodore mccarrick. families are gathering on -- for christmas, for the holidays, and it's such a great placing for -- blessing for everyone to be together. as we think about the country, everywhere in every community across the country, people are really hurting. >> and there's no question about it. you travel any part of the country, and you see so many families that are broken, families that have lost their -- their breadwinner. families that are becoming more poor than they were before. we always had that great american dream that your children were going to do better than you would. there was always a progression upward. now a lot of our families who say, no, that i'm worried about my daughters and sons and what's going to happen to them, because they are not going to have the

opportunities that i've had. that, of course, is very depressing for people, and in a world like that, you don't need depressing things. >> as all of us work at our relationship with god, i always wonder how difficult it is for people who are going through real trials in their lives, to rely upon that relationship. if it's -- maybe it's automatically a source of strength, but aren't there times when working your faith becomes a real challenge? >> absolutely, for everybody. for everybody. for clergymen, as well as for lay people. but i think christmas is maybe the answer to all that. christmas is a season of hope, a season of expectation, a season of love. and there are people who will be celebrating christmas in less than the perfect circumstances. they won't have enough to eat. there will be unemployment in the family. there will be the heat in the house may not be as good as it

should be. there won't be a turkey, or a ham or whatever on the table. but that's why christmas comes. i think christmas comes to remind us that there is a god, and that this is a god who loves us. i think the -- if you touch the whole basis of the abrahamic family, the family of abraham, christians, muslims, jewish people, and in that -- there is a god who loves, a god who is our muslim brothers and sisters, a god who is loving and compassionate. loving and compassionate. and merciful. and the -- the lesson of the world -- the hebrew scriptures when we pull the old testament is equal, this is a god who made us, who loves us, and who promises us that we'll never leave us. and of course, we christians will celebrate the birth of christ this day. we believe that that is the answer to god's promises that he will always be with us. he sent us his son.

>> and it is in that spirit that we wish you and your family a very merry christmas and a joyous and peaceful new year. we'll be back next week. new year's day, live, from des moines, iowa, just two days before the caucuses. if it's sunday, it's "meet the before the caucuses. if it's sunday, it's "meet the press." -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com 25 or more of them? do you have a financial plan for you family that works, in good times and in bad times? having the right perspective can help you answer the big questions. for more than 140 years, pacific life has helped find answers for those navigating the path to financial security. ask a financial professional about pacific life - the power to help you succeed. what's next? 607 franklin st. ♪ sea bass... ♪

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e powerful. that's why we're here. when not used in the right way, they can divide a nation. but when used wisely, they can bring us together in ways that make us stronger. words can connect us all... the more you know.