>> production assistance for "inside washington" was provided by allbritton communications and "politico." >> i don't understand this rudeness. what is this? i don't get it. >> this week on "inside washington," the robust, sometimes nasty debate over health-care reform. >> let's disagree over things that are real, not these wild misrepresentations that bear no resemblance to what has been proposed. >> what about the political consequences for the president and members of congress? >> one day god is going to stand before you and he is going to judge you.

>> the fed says things are getting better. why don't they feel better? a presidential election in afghanistan. is there an end and for american troops there? and eunice kennedy shriver, a founder of the special olympics, dead at the age of 88. >> president kennedy said that if she had been a man, she would have been president instead of jack. captioned by the national captioning institute --www.ncicap.org-- >> it has been a wild week on the health care front, the president has been trying to squelch reports that the health care reform includes a plan to kill old people. republican senator chuck grassley helped to keep the talks going. >> i don't have problems with things like living wills, but they ought to be done within the

family. we should not have a government program that determines when to pull the plug on grandma. >> let's see if we can play this thing to rest is the obama administration planning to pull the plug on grandma, jeanne? >> no, they are not planning to do that. this is one of those divisions that either because it is poorly written or because people see a benefit in it has been clearly misinterpreted. but it is -- what is is a reimbursement for services and seniors that want to write a living will can get that for free, essentially, or at a discount. but it is voluntary, not mandatory. >> evan, why is this a debate so nasty? >> because the administration tried to get away with something. they said we would control costs, but that nothing would really change, you can still have your insurance. people smelled a rat.

they knew instinctively that that cannot be true, and the administration will either slide through that and get the bill done quickly, and although there is misinformation, and this is a nutty theory that is out there, the public is not wrong to suspect that you cannot have it both ways, you cannot control costs and have the same health care. i think the administration has been caught on its own petard on this. >> mark. >> i believe that the death panels or is a product of either ignorance or malice. you can say malice in the case of the former speaker of the house, a man of towering intellect who has encouraged this misperception. but i do agree that one of the great problems of this plan from the very outset is that violates the rule that there are no pains without gains. with changes of this magnitude, there are going to be changes that will affect everyone of us, and you are better off leveling with people going in to get a better result.

>> charles, what do you think? >> well, the death panels' stuff is wildly exaggerated, but there is a problem that is out and buy -- that is outlined by charles lane, editorial writer for "the washington post," that in the cost-cutting section of the bill, the idea of doctors being reimbursed by the government for consultation on living wills, you are quietly implying that this is something you want to encourage, and that is linked with cutting costs. obama has spoken in the past about his grandmother getting any replacement when she was ill and infirm, whether it was -- getting a hip replacement when she was ill and infirm, whether it was worth it. people suspect that at the end of the road and it will be a course of kind of medicine. >> i think the underlying reason

for this provision is that there is data and studies out there that show that in areas where people are encouraged and to develop guidelines on how they want to be treated at the end of life, most of them don't want to die in an icu unit. many of them want to die at home with their family around them to doctors with no guidance cannot make that call. the idea behind it is that yes it would save money, because they are not in nicu unit, and it is still what the patient wants to do. -- an icu unit, and it is still a patient wants to do. somehow this got wedded with costs. >> the time you want to make this decision is before that, and not to pass it on to the loved ones who are surviving, saying, "my gosh, and i then going to pull the plug?" it is irrational, koppel, and

sensible way -- >> i have been there in madison. -- medicine. you sign something in advance, and you end up in the hospital, a doctor is not going to look at that unless you are unconscious, unless you don't have a family. what you say in the hospital at the time, no matter what is written -- >> i went through this with my own mother. she wanted to die, there were three doctors who wanted to do procedures on her. they were not unkind or mean, but it is a way to do more procedures. she had to insist that it was time to go. it is a difficult area and we never have an honest conversation about it. >> let me go to a question that is not wacky, but just to democratic senator ben cardin in towson, maryland. >> how are you going to keep my employer from stop offering

insurance and forcing at to the public option if that is cheaper for their bottom line? >> that is a pretty good question. does anybody have an answer for that? >> that is a question that the democrats do not want to face. that is why every business group that does provide insurance really talks about how the public plan could affect them. obama will argue that in order to keep good employees, businesses will have to offer better plans, and that sort of thing, so that will keep the system in place. but there is going to be some of that. there will be some shutting off, no question about it. which is why senator baucus is focusing so much on co-ops and not public plans. >> which is why when barney frank is asked why he is not supporting the committee-style system, which is what he really wants, he says on camera that there is no way to get it right away, and the way to do it is

with a public option. liberals understand it if you do with to the public option, in the end, it will take over, because the private industry will give up and people who are promised today that they will be able to keep their insurance are not going to have it if the employers do not offer it. >> all these politicians are trying to do this by sleight of hand obama is not being honest about it. he talks about cutting costs, but nothing will change on the hill, -- they're, -- we will not get from here to there unless we have an honest conversation about it. and all these crazy conspiracy theories, but the public is right to blow the whistle and say what is going on here? >> social security is bankrupt, medicare is bankrupt, the post office is bankrupt. how, as a proud american trust you people to do the right thing? >> that is what evan was talking

about. according to a recent gallup poll, independent voters have a sympathetic ear for the town hall protesters. senator arlen specter, is to be a democrat, then became a republican, then a democrat again, losing ground because of his support for health-care reform. could this be a turning point for him? >> he certainly showed the mental and even the meanness that has made in such an effective -- mettle and even the meanness that has made in such an effective senator. he stood toto, jotted job with the strongest of protesters. i do not know if it is a turning point. but i do think that arlen specter is in a tough race. i think that joe says jack -- joe sestak, the challenger, mr. gould and opportunity to commend him for his handling of it. -- missed a golden opportunity to commend him for his handling of it. three out of a four insist there have been good meetings, without

this kind of pyrotechnics. but i do think that the white house has come back by reclaiming and rebutting the most egregious errors. but politically, it is a very, very tough. >> how did the white house get behind the curve on this? >> the republicans had a planned and implemented it instantly and got out there first. a plan to get their people at these town hall meetings and to send a message to them in advance that they were armed with the things they're going after. they were way ahead of the game. it is surprising that the white house was behind it this is a recurring pattern, that they are about a week night. they are coming back pretty strong this week. whether they can turn the whole corner remains to be seen. when it comes to arlen specter, i think he help himself in the democratic primary, which it was a place he really needed to help and self credit.

he looked pretty strong in his second performance in particular creed that became a model for other democrats. the democrats in the end might benefit from showing toughness and knowledge. they are being asked really hard questions and they have detailed answers. at the to as much smarter for them to go out and face the fire rather than run -- i think it was much smarter for them to go out and is the fire rather than run and hide. >> charles says that obama has already lost this debate is on the congressional budget office figures. >> as we are taking this show, obama is getting ready to go into the lion's den. he needs a big one when they are all yelling at him and he says something that is calming yet firm. he needs to be out there the way the senators are, facing his detractors and doing it in a way that shows courage. >> democrats would like to think that they are losing this

because they are being out- organized, the sort of conspiracy out there, groups that are galvanizing people with the tactics are wrong. the problem is with what evan said -- the core of this is a contradiction that ordinary americans understand -- president obama's as we will cut costs of health care and i will do it and we will ensure 50 million additional americans. if you are 8 years old, you know that cannot be true. there is something here that is wrong. one of the cbo came out and said it is going to cost a fortune, it is not going to say, there was no escape. those are numbers that you cannot refute. >> the federal that as it has had $1.27 trillion. people have noticed that. >> they are noticing it, and wait it affects the health care debate is that the health care bill from the outset was going

to be paid for. it in and of itself would not add to the deficit. the problem is that the deficit is getting this big and there are costs for the system of medicare and medicaid. there is now pressure for them to find ways to bend those costs. that is a much trickier proposition, because that is the painted -- that is the pain. >> in friday's "washington post," there was a chart that demonstrate that all the growth in deficit comes from medicare and medicaid spending. that is where the growth is. it is not small, it is really big, and until they get a handle on that, they will chew up the federal budget and the u.s. economy. one statistic, 1990, we spent 12% of the economy on health care. now we have a 17%. it is heading towards 25%. good health care costs, and we should recognize that and we should spend a lot, but that is

a big number. >> richard as not to like things are better -- it sure does not feel like things are better, and senator grassley says we may not have a bill but is that a possibility? >> no, we will have a bill, because the democrats no the president isn't dead politically if that does not happen. -- is dead politically if that does not happen. it will be a fallback, health insurance bill. no pre editions, exclusions, etc. and it will be a mandate, so that the young and uninsured and help the will have to pay to subsidize the old. >> what trawls describes cannot happen, because the insurance industry's have cut a deal here, and there is no way they can take in everybody without some give on the other side, and the democrats know that the white house knows that. there will be a health reform bill, but what is at stake is

the public plan, and as charles said, that is very close to having fallen away already. >> the insurance companies will be compensated by having a mandate in which the young will pay into insurers and that will subsidize the insurance for the uninsured and the old. >> it actions in afghanistan next week. how long the troops be there? >> sometimes you think about what is going on back home, or i could be drinking beer right now, why did i ever joined the army? what am i doing here? and other days you want to kick their ass. >> good question, what is he doing there? the next head of the british army says that the u.k. will be committed to afghanistan for the next 30 to 40 years. 30 to 40 years, evan. how long are people going to be there? >> 30 to 40 years.

we will have some kind of force in afghanistan. the really poignant thing that is going on is that we have got to reduce civilian casualties, and this is never going to work. in order to reduce civilian casualties, you have to put your soldiers at risk. you cannot be calling in air strikes, you cannot be calling in artillery strikes. they have issued these guys one by one. that is risky for -- for to they have to shoot these guys one by one. that is a risky for them pu. >> to what end, why are you putting them out there? >> civilian casualties are up, and the principal cause, beyond the taliban's activities -- this has become a remote, that situation. americans are seeing these heavily armed vehicles, beyond

the attempts to organize communities and reach out. >> you are a step behind -- they have changed the doctrine and have done your air strikes. -- have done if you were air strikes. >> casualties as a will of american policy -- as a result of american policy -- when richard holbrooke was asked this week how to define success, he says "we will know what when we see it." that, i am sorry, is not a rationale or reason for sending americans. >> if you are a parent with a young man or woman over there being shot over there, saying why are we here -- >> i think that this one is a lot easier to talk to those parents about and iraq.

this is the root of september 11. through the taliban oakleigh to al qaeda. -- hopefully to al qaeda to that is one can be justified much more easily than iraq might have been. this is about getting osama bin laden. >> but not if this is an unwinnable war, which is the irony. democrats said that this was the good war. but how do you fight a war for a country that never was a country? iraq was a country that you can hold together and is holding together. it was a winnable war. afghanistan is a war that and a minimum this winnable, keeping and pay the taliban and al -- keeping and today the taliban and al qaeda. the idea of constructing a new afghanistan is out of the question. afghanistan never was a country

and is not going to be a democracy. i think we have to redefine our goals radically napa or we are going to be in their -- radically now or we are going to be there 34 years and leslie. >> we will not be there 30 or 40 years. this is a democracy, and that becomes unsustainable without an achievable mission, a defined mission. >> we are going to have some kind of force there as long as you and i can see. >> may be in kabul. that could be enough at some point. >> he is not the president of afghanistan. >> how do you think are secretary of state did in africa this week? >> she does all this hard work and africa, and in one moment, she shows him and frustration over husband, overshadowing her.

how else can you interpret it? spit it out that way. as a single mom, but it overshadows evident -- it is a single moment, but it overshadows everything. >> let me dissent. seven countries in 11 days. the complexities angola, nigeria is about oil, trying to do democracy, and it was not just an aid visit. this is the complexity of africa. the first time the president and secretary of state have been to africa. a tough, important assignment. the fact that she just responded as she did to that question -- i just said, "hey, good for you." you are the secretary of state. >> as your only female representative, i thought was terrific. but the question was offensive. >> it was a mistake.

>> if you listen to the translation -- >> the question was demeaning and offensive and i am proud of her for taking it right back. >> i am sympathetic, and i do not think it was all about being overshadowed by her husband i think it is the fact that you have richard holbrooke in charge of afghanistan and pakistan, george mitchell in charge of the middle east, envoys here and there, and her husband that is the hero out of korea, and she is in the condo. -- congo. obama besides the world in every european capital, and she is kinhasa. i'm sure it is a lovely spot. actually, it is a hell hole. she is given africa, which on the skill of american national interest, fortunately or

unfortunately, it is at the bottom. she has been heavily marginalized. in the six months of this administration, as she proposed a policy or given a speech or made a trip of any high importance? the answer is no. it is all being done by others. >> you can overstate that. she and paul barker actually pars. -- she and richard holbrooke are actually part hours. he is not pushing her around. >> but if you are secretary of state, kissinger or george shultz, you are the guy makes policy. you are the guys who ends up in beijing, not richard holbrooke. >> she and richard holbrooke -- i agree with evan on this -- richard holbrooke was a strong supporter of hers. he did not add up over her objections or resistance. -- did not get that job over her objections or resistance. this was a very important trip that she just took. i think her importance -- she

went to asia as secretary of state -- basically a figure almost equal to the president in visiting any place. >> and the world has got enough problems -- we have so many hot spots now around the world that a team of envoys is a good idea. i think it is a credit to her to have the self-confidence to have that team working around her and to not feel all, despite what trawls would have felt if it was him -- charles would have felt if it was him. >> but she is human and she feels her husband's overbearing presence from time to time. >> i join in prison -- in praising her. but if you were there, he would be bothered, too. >> you special olympians have

thrilled us on the playing fields of the world. you have taught us that what matters is not power or politics, weapons or wealth. what really counts is the courageous spirit and the generous heart. >> the voice of eunice kennedy shriver. she died this week. she was certainly a force of nature. according to those who knew work, she was the force behind the international special olympics for people with intellectual disabilities did i say she was a force of nature, according to people who knew her. the stories about her were wonderful. >> if you dared to suggest that there was even the slightest imperfection of bobby kennedy, you are set straight. she was a formidable lady. >> she was the inspiration for many who care for those who are impaired, and she illustrates how much can be done even if you are not in an elective office.

holding a power base somewhere. the special olympics is internationally and influence, and she did all that without holding office. we have seen generations of kennedys behind your starting to do things in the private sector. she is a great role model for what people can accomplish. >> she has terrific children, all in the public sector, too. >> she was a very noble woman who took up a noble cause and made it work. it tells us that the kennedys were all well family. -- a royal family. a most extraordinary president, a moderate senator, bobbie, -- martyred senator, bobby. i do not think the young generation can match the elders, and that is not a put down pre but it is an amazing generation that we will not see again. >> her brothers, john and

robert, all made headlines and the history books. she made a difference. she change the way we see each other. before her -- before eunice kennedy became the face and voice of those who are mentally disabled, they were basically shunted from the mainstream of our society. she put her hand over them and brought them into acceptance, or they can work and go to school and be accepted. an enormous achievement. >> thanks. last word. see you next week. for a transcript of this broadcast, log on to insidewashington.tv.