tavis: good evening from los angeles. i'm tavis smiley. first up tonight a rare conversation with music legend bill withers. he penned some of the most enduring songs including "ain't no sunshine," "lean on me" and "just the two of us." a documentary called "still bill" explores the life of bill withers including his decision to step away from the music business. the film is open in select city across the country. also a few words tonight about the lunch counter sit-ins in greensboro 50 years ago. we're glad you could join us. bill withers and remembering the greensboro four coming up right now. >> there are so many things that wal-mart is looking forward to

doing, like helping people live better, but mostly we're looking forward to helping build stronger communities and relationships because with your help, the best is yet to come. >> nationwide insurance proudly supports tavis smiley. tavis and nationwide insurance working to improve financial literacy and the economic empowerment that comes with it. ♪ nationwide is on your side ♪ >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. [captioning made possible by kcet public television] >> and then i understood -- tavis: what an honor and pleasure to welcome bill withers to this program. we were just chatting already. he is responsible for some of the most indelible songs.

"ain't no sunshine". a new documentary about his life and career is playing in some select cities. here now some scenes from "still bill". >> what an honor, mr. bill withers. >> ladies and gentlemen, mr. bill withers! >> the hardest thing to be in songwriting is to be simple and yet profound. bill seemed to understand how to do that. >> most of the music companies called me up and they had this rhythm and blues thing in their mind with the three chicks and wasn't into that. i got this good job making these toilets. i don't need you cats. my real life, when i was just a working guy. on your way to wonderful you're going to have to pass through all right. tavis: i want to start with that

bill withers formulation right there. we have talked countless times over the years in our own private space and i have never heard you say that and that comment to me was absolutely arresting. there is nothing out starting out on a journey to a place called wonderful but on the way to wonderful you're going to pass through a place called all right. where did you get that? >> i never know, tavis. i'm just a conduit and walk around and sometimes i'm scratching myself and things cross my mind. so i don't know where any of that stuff comes from. people ask about songs and things like that so, i don't know. it's just -- the way i am, i guess. tavis: did you, in your own mind, did you make it? you decided in 1985 to leave the

music business on your own accord. prior to 1985 does bill withers think that he made it to that place called wonderful or is that your way of telling me or telling us who saw the documentary that you got to a place called all right and that was all right by you? >> well, you know, it depends on -- i didn't have the prototypical life, i guess. i was in the navy nine years so i decided ok. that's enough navy. usually people who are in that long stay in for like 20 years. tavis: mm-hmm. >> i didn't come into music to do it my whole life. i thought i would like to do that for a while. that's interesting. and then -- probably that phrase. now i can probably tell you what cued that phrase. tavis: mm-hmm.

>> um -- at sometimes i felt better when i was all right. and then this whole show business thing kind of blew things up a little bit. and felt like man, i miss all right. tavis: this is wonderful but i miss all right. >> all right was, you know, all right was better than i thought it was. tavis: but who in this business, bill withers, walks away from wonderful? people don't walk away from fame and fortune and grammy awards and sold out theaters and television and radio. people are clamoring for you. these days. >> you mean nobody but me? [laughter] tavis: nobody does that. >> you know what happens. it's like relationships. tavis: mm-hmm. >> when relationships are over, sometimes people jockey to see who's going to leave who. and unless you're, you know,

tony bennett or b.b. king or somebody, this, eventually leaves you. i was just looking at those film clips you showed. you know, that was a different guy then. you know, i look at myself now and i am -- i'm comfortable being a senior citizen. it doesn't bother me, you know, how i look. tavis: so you're still handsome. that's why. >> well, you know, that's a matter of opinion. i went through a period where i thought like, ok, my hair started to go gray. a guy said you have to dye your hair. so there is this messy stuff all over the place. [laughter] and i felt like, man, you know what i mean. but i didn't leave the music business. i didn't leave, you know. just within the last year, i

mean, i played you something. george benson. tavis: let me tell the story before you tell it. if you have not picked up the latest record from george benson, you to do it. george was on this show and i asked him how he got you out of semiretirement if you will, to write that song for him. he said he wanted bill withers to write a song for him so bad. the song that you wrote for george benson, "just a telephone call away" is some beautiful stuff. it's beautiful. >> thank you. tavis: i know you did do that for george benson. >> you don't know about the other stuff i did. tavis: what else did you do? >> the most fun i had, jimmy buffett called me up. he said i'm making a country album and i'm going to do duets with all of these great country artists and people. i said what did you call me for?

he said you're about as country as anybody i know. i thought like, man. this would be fun. jimmy's, you know, got a good sense of humor. i got to write stuff like "when you find out things about yourself and you hadn't ought to know and your grandma calls and books you on the jerry springer show and you find out you and your wife of 10 years might be related it is just complicated". that was on jimmy buffett's first number one album both pop and country. i've been having fun. tavis: how much of your appreciation for country music, if any of it comes from having grown up in west virginia? >> all of it. because it was on the radio.

you know, there was -- you know, we absorb things as we walk around. there was the blues and country music and then there was frank sinatra and perry como and then della reese. so you absorb all of that stuff and somehow or another it gets mixed up inside you and comes out. tavis: i was looking at another documentary that you were included in about ali and foreman. >> the big fight. tavis: yeah. and how you and a few other select artists were involved in the big concert that happened before the fight. tell me about your role in that -- in the concert before the fight. >> well, somebody called me up and said you want to go to zair? they are going to do a big fight. the interesting thing to me --

so it was just a gig and you go play this gig but the interesting thing to me was i had never been in a country where there was a dictator. i had never been in a place where there was such a disparity in wealth. you know. like a few people had all of this money. mobutu lived a very opulent lifestyle and was very wealthy and the people saw it. i got a taste. i said man, this guy gives me the creeps. they would want us to go up to his house and eat and all of that stuff. i never went because, you know, morally, i didn't feel comfortable with it. they had like -- the rings that they trained in had like velvet on the rope aprons, meanwhile here is some guy, i went down by

the river. this guy was carving. i had this guy carve me two drums. and it was something like $5 or something like that. that was probably with the tip. so the impression from that trip for me was like hey, man, let's get real here. it was about two big guys going to go fight each other in the middle of the night. now that has its testosterone appeal to us. you know, we're all -- we all like that kind of stuff but as a socially significant thing, here was two big guys fighting. tavis: in the middle of the night. >> i could go find that in some bars over here. but it left that impression. i didn't stay for the fight. it made me uncomfortable just that whole despot thing with

this guy and meanwhile, everybody is talking and talking about the big celebration. i walked among those people. and it was, as is shown, that area, which is now renamed the congo, has been through -- it never stabilized. it has been through a lot of stuff. having grown up, you know, i'm of that age, the civil rights movement and all of that stuff so i was familiar with those struggles. i was there when it started and i was wondering like how would these people get started in -- in -- and it was all black people. see? the guy on the top was black and the guy on the bottom was black. how did they get started? how did they rally themselves to get some kind of equity here?

so, you know, that's the impression that i had. tavis: you're consciousness, as is evidenced in your response to that question, your consciousness, bill, always comes through in your music. you talk about grandma's hands and let's just start and stop there. what is it about that song that all these years later, those of us who have grandmamas relate to? >> you know, it is funny because i'll give you two -- tavis: that's your grandmother on the screen there? >> yeah, that's grandma. when i met johnny cash, i was playing in hawaii and i was opening for bill cosby who has always been this huge star. so i thought like oh, johnny cash knows bill cosby and he walked right by bill cosby and he came and looked at me and

stood in the door way and at that time john filled up the door way. he said i would like to meet your grandmother. so we had a conversation about -- and he was telling me about his grandmother. barbra streisand, if you were going to make a triangle, you could make a good triangle out of me, johnny cash and barbra streisand over here. tavis: it seems so disconnected. >> she recorded that song and said it reminded her of her grandmother. so i think that universal thing, that figure, you know, ernie barnes, who passed away. tavis: great artist. >> we were having a conversation and we were talking about that and we were talking about what a valuable role those people played in our development because grandmothers tend to

gravitate towards the weak kids. i was this kid, i had asthma and i stuttered and sometimes i do now. she picked me, you see? and i remember one of the phrases, it's on film. i was talking with ernie when he did those two paintings for me. i said ernie, i wonder what it would have been like if my grandmother would have been on crack. so you can tell how much difference that makes in people's lives when they get good ones. because when that's not set up right. when that whole grandparent-parent thing is messed up, so fortunately, i was in a good situation there. i remember seing in the los angeles times some years ago, a 29-year-old woman holding her

grandchild. 29, tavis. tavis: messed you up, didn't it? >> 29! so my version was sort of the idealized version and hopefully there are a lot of those around. tavis: you mentioned a moment ago that you were a child with asthma and a child that stuttered, even now, every now and again, as you mentioned you will stutter on a word now. how did you find the confidence, as a stutterer, one, to be bold enough to do music as a stutterer, number one and then number two, the confidence to sit and conduct conversation where it is more pronounced in conversation than it is on the a record. where do you find the confidence to come out publicly and say this is who i am. stutter and all. >> well, stuttering doesn't

affect singing. in fact, there was a big star in country music again. his name was mel tillis. he worked it. his stock might have gone down if he stopped stuttering. i figured out -- i figured out that it was a fear of the perception of the listener. tavis: mm-hmm. >> in other words, to make it simple, i had too high an opinion of other people and too low an opinion of myself. so i had to sort of bring that down over here and lift that up over here, you know? because when you're alone, you don't stutter. you know. so that worked for me. now i've heard of people who start stuttering at like 12

years of old because their house burned down and the dog didn't get out or something like that. so there are probably several reasons but it's not a physical thing. it's something in your head. tavis: when you look back, which this documentary "still bill" forces all of us to do, you included us looking back on your life, your legacy. you said earlier in this conversation that music was something you wanted to do for a while. something you wanted to try. are you happy in retrospect with that phase? i know you're still writing whenever you feel like it but as a performer, as an artist out there on the scene, are you happy with that phase of your life, in context? >> well, you know, i didn't get that training that usually people who do that start at like teenagers or even before and they build up this thing. i mean, i decided in my 30's that i was going to try that.

and so i didn't have a lot of prerequizite training. so, you know, i think i squeezed it pretty good. tavis: what does starting so late, to your point about people starting to sing when they are kids, michael jackson started at 5, bill withers started at 30. coming in at that age, allowed you to have what viewpoint you might not have had if you were a kid in this business? >> well, i was able to discern that it was a business and that sometimes the people weren't the nicest people in the world who ran that business. if you think about it, you know. all of those horror stories about people, you know, somebody got to take up a collection when they die and things like that.

i made some mistakes. you know, i made some social mistakes. so, you know, you -- we all look at the world through the window of our own eyes. and we have assets and liabilities, you know. some people understand things quicker than other people so based on what i knew and who i was, i did the best i could, you know? so, you know, there are a couple of things i would, you know, if i was a little smarter, i would have done differently. and there are a coum things that i -- couple of things that i think i was pretty smooth at. tavis: you're plenty smart. right quick. in 15 seconds, you were happy. you are happy with the documentary? i -- at first the two filmmakers had to pull you into it. i know you didn't want to do

this. are you happy that you did it now that you have seen it? >> sometimes. [laughter] tavis: sometimes not? >> yeah, because i've always been as private as i could. i always threw something out there for somebody to deal with, usually something silly, but by and large, i guess so. it is a longer process than i'm used to. i deal in the three to four minute foremat. i can say anything that i want to say in four minutes and make it rhyme every other line. well, film, they edit and then they go back again so it was wearing my head out. i told my wife, i said look. keep these guys away from me. don't let them embarrass us because i'm done. so that, yeah. they were -- they put a lot of work into it. tavis: that's great. >> i hope it does what they wanted it to do.

tavis: chris, bring me that thing quick. i'm going to put you on the spot. i know you're not going to play this thing but i felt maybe if i brought this out you might feel comfortable just having it on the set and i might be able to talk if you saw it, we might be able to make you sing a cappella. up next, i have some thoughts about the four young men who courageously changed the course of u.s. history 50 years ago, they were called, are called the greensboro four. stay with us for that. after i convince our friend, bill withers, just to give us a little something a cappella. >> that's a good fashion statement for you. i think you should work with one of those. tavis: yeah. >> i told you, i can't really play that thing. i'll give you a little demonstration of how i can't play. tavis: ok. >> if i wanted to sing, i

wouldn't be fooling around with you and i would be doing it for a whole lot of money. [laughter] you know, people do call me. [laughter] tavis: i'm sure they do. for more of my conversation with bill withers, go to pbs.org. >> ♪ maybe the darkness of the hour makes me seem lonelier than i am ♪ tavis: 50 years ago this week four students in greensboro sat down at a segregated lunch

counter. the greensboro four they were flever known walked into a woolworth on a february morning and helped spark one of the most effective and enduring protests of the civil rights era. the move yement quickly spread throughout the south. franklin mccain, one of the greensboro four was due to join us but unfortunately due to bad weather this week he was unable to do so, however mccain and the two other living members were onhand in washington it is a smithsonian played tribute by awarding them the bicentennial medal and in greensboro, the door opened at the international civil rights center and museum. dr. king once said change does not roll in on the wheels of inevitability but comes through

continuous struggle. tonight we honor the legacy of four young men who added their imprint to the struggle forever changing coursof american history. until next time, thanks for watching and keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley on pbs.org. tavis: hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for a conversation with legendary singered ai smith. that's next time. we'll see you then. >> there are so many things wal-mart is looking forward to doing, like helping people live better. but mostly we're looking forward to helping build stronger communities and relationships. because of your help, the best is yet to come. >> nationwide insurance proudly supports tavis smiley. tavis and nationwide insurance, working to improve financial literacy and the economic

empowerment that comes with it. ♪ nationwide is on your side ♪ and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> we are pbs.