>> it's clear that greg craig and rahm emanuel did not get along at all and i think rahm blamed craig for the way the whole guantanamo situation had gone, and i think that was the heart of graig craig's departure but i also think graig craig's failure to keep up with nominations was not a feather in his cap and bob bower, his successor has picked up the pace somewhat on nominations though not what a lot of obama supporters would like to see. >> charlie: another thing, i've got about eight minutes, the whole question because of guantanamo and all those civil -- those issues of human rights. where do we stand on that? what's happening in that arena? >> i think they have kicked the can down the road till after the midterm elections -- i mean, you know -- as someone who has been covering this issue for a long time, and went to guantanamo a couple of times during the bush

administration, one of the things that was very clear was that if you promise to close guantanamo, that was only the beginning of the questions you had to answer, because there is a category of prisoner there for -- who our military thought was dangerous but didn't have enough evidence to prosecute in a traditional criminal court. and what to do about those people is just an issue that has been -- you know, not resolved. >> charlie: but has the president changed his mind? >> i don't think he's changed his mind in the sense that he wants to close down guantanamo -- >> charlie: but has he changed his mind when all of a sudden he realized what the issues were, he was, "not so fast here"? >> certainly, he said "not so fast here" he made a very specific promise to close it within a year and we are well more than a year into the obama administration and it is nowhere near being closed, it has fewer people in it than in the past,

they have tried to return a number of people, which they have done to various countries, but it's -- a lot of these countries -- they don't want -- people don't want them. >> charlie: indeed. there is this about the president and the reason people say there is something about -- the way he conducts his white house. of a lawyer in him. bob woodward's book about the review of afghanistan and pakistan. much of it has to do with the way the president would go back and forth and wants all the opinions. it suggested a lawyerly frame of mind, number one. number two, he would write -- and bob talks about a memo that they now include in the book in which he sort of went down and approached things -- a decisional process that sounds like a lawyer's mind. >> absolutely. i mean, i think certainly in terms of -- >> i'mar, adam, the temperament is that way, one -- >> i'm sorry, adam, the temperament is that way, one of the accusations against the bush administration is that he good

precooked briefings that pointed him in one direction and obama has gone out of his way, woodward talks about this and other journalists have as well he wants a devil's advocate in the room, he wants the process in front of him so he has all the information before he makes a decision, that's lawyer-like. >> charlie: if you don't participate he will call on you because if you have something to say, he will call on you because he wants it part of the mix. you're excused. let me just take a -- you need to go. >> i do, i apologize. >> charlie: thank you very much for coming. great to see you, this has been an interesting way to look at the first monday in october. thank you. go ahead, adam. >> so i'm guessing some people think that lawyerly is a bad quality, but there is something to be said for the sober, methodical, weighing both sides of an issue and making a decision after you fully submerged yourself in those facts, so it's not necessarily a bad thing. >> charlie: talk about a bit covering the supreme court from -- in a sense, as a beat.

>> it can be a very -- very rewarding beat. it turns on preparation more than access. you get a little bit of access, but on the whole, the court speaks through arguments and through decisions, and the more you get on top of the briefs and the more you understand exactly what's going on and the more you see patterns between the cases and over the years, the better job you do in trying to translate this sometimes difficult technical jargon-laden material but very important material into something you hope is accessible to the general reader. >> charlie: in the end, it's about human beings in conflict. >> human beings in conflict but also ideas colliding. so i wouldn't -- i wouldn't sell short the idea that there are people who like the other guy a lot but just don't agree with him, but almost -- almost always, the justices manage to disagree with each other, sometimes quite sharply with -- in a civil way, and that's not a

bad thing to see either. >> charlie: do you have an opportunity to talk with them? i don't want you to tell me things that you can't tell me, but is it part of covering the supreme court that a justice will say, "why don't you just come in and let's talk about that"? >> i would say it's a minor part. justice stevens gave an exit interview to a few of us, including me. justice breyer will give a public interview with me in philadelphia later this month. you run into the justices here and there. but it's not a bob woodward beat. it's not an access beat. to the extent you have interactions with the justices, it is quite often not on matters of substance and you even wonder sometimes whether even that level of access is something that might influence your coverage a little bit because you might not want to write something a little bit mean about somebody who has just had coffee with you. >> charlie: so at the end of the day, covering the court, what questions are unanswered for you? >> oh, i would love to -- they

have a private conference in which they make the decisions. nobody, even their clerks, is allowed in there, and just to see how they go down the row by seniority first, and the chief justice sets out the facts of the case, and then in order of seniority going to the most junior justice they chime in, that would be -- even once, even in the most mundane case available, to be a fly on the wall there and just to get a sense of how they comport themselves would be fascinating. >> charlie: is there any evidence it's changed over the years or is it pretty much the same it's always been? >> no, it comes and goes. there is a new book out called "scorpions" about the court in the roosevelt era where they wereally going at each other very viciously. there is no sense of this now -- at each other -- where they were really going at each other viciously. they get along pretty well. >> charlie: do we look at america today and say there is this institution called a court of a certain bent and there is a

congress of a certain bent and there is a president who is trying to move his agenda along? that's where we are? >> i would say a couple of things. whatever you think of the court, its approval ratings compared to everybody else are sky-high. compared to congress, the president, lawyers, journalists -- people respect the court. they may not know it very well, they may not understand it very well but they'll believe in it, they'll do what it says even if they don't like what it says and the other thing i would say is the court is probably slightly to the right of earlier courts -- already fairly conservative ones -- but it's not clear to me that it's fundamentally out of step with the american public. american public opinion, on the big, controversial issues of the day and where the court comes out tends to be pretty closely aligned. >> charlie: and are we past the age of these huge confrontational confirmation processes? >> well, yes and no. we've had -- the last couple of nominees, by most standards, certainly by the wishes of the

left were relative moderates and yet they got a pretty good going over and they didn't pick up a lot of votes from the other party, so maybe not bruising in the sense of clarence thomas or robert bork, who really, really had a hard fight but arguably there was more to fight about -- but nonetheless, the voting patterns these days are suggestive that if either side nominates somebody who is even a little bit extreme you're really going to see a battle royale. >> charlie: who will be the next justice to retire? >> i would say -- and maybe i'll wake up tomorrow and be quite wrong about this -- in the short term, nobody. i don't think obama gets another nominee. i think justice ginsburg, about whom people talk sometimes, wants to stay on the court, is in good spirits and good health. i don't see any signs of anybody else wanting to go -- of course, only the justices themselves know, but i think having gone through four justices in very quick succession we might just

settle down now and have a period of stability or maybe as with jeff's prediction of having appointed barack obama, i will turn out to be wrong. >> charlie: as i said in the introduction, we have more women on the court than wife hear. what does that mean, if anything -- than we've ever had. what does that mean if anything? >> she does tnk that's important. maybe there is a symbolic critical mass that goes on when you have a sufficient number of people, you have kind of a generational thing going on where it no longer seems surprising, it's no longer huge news -- she did talk a few years ago when she was the only woman on the court that she would speak at this conference where i mentioned where they go around and say how they're going to vote, she would say something and people would move on, a justice would later make exactly the same point and she would say all of a sudden people would say, "that's a really good point" having ignored her, so the suggestion there from her was that even in the supreme court there might be a little bit of sexism going on. >> charlie: with that note, let

me thank jeffrey toobin, who writes, as i said, for "the new yorker" magazine and also reports for cnn and wrote a book about the court called "the nine, inside the secret world of the supreme court" which is now in paperback. adam liptak covers the supreme court for "the new york times." thank you. we had i think a primer on the sport in this hour and i -- on the supreme court. thank you for joining us. see you next time. later this week on "charlie rose. >> you have performed in almost every kind of venue or even places where it wouldn't be called a venue. >> right. >> charlie: standing on barstools. >> right. >> charlie: trying to make them -- trying to turn down the tv so you can hear me and all this great comedy i'm doing. >> really great mix when you try to get the guys at the local sports bar to turn down the hockey playoffs so you can tell your stupid jokes. >> charlie: trying to make these people laugh. >> it's a desperate arm form to try to get into.

-- it's i desperate art form to try to get into. you perform anywhere you can. old folks homes. churches. even a bus. i was doing stand-up as much as i could, wherever i could. >> charlie: talk about that in a serious way. if you want to be good, you've got to go out -- >> you have to do it, you have to get on stage, and you have to bomb, and fail, and try new things, and you have to fight disencouragement, i think is the biggest hurdle. >> charlie: is there some point where -- you didn't face this, but is there a certain -- can you say to most people "you will make it"? most people, somehow there are lucks and breaks and all that kind of stuff? >> it depends on what you consider making it. making a living at it is -- but to be like a big -- you know -- >> charlie: like you? >> and still have -- yes, to make it into -- to be in -- >> charlie: to be on the cover of "g.q." for god sake.

"laugh out loud funny the comedy issue starring zack -- below you supporting players. >> i don't know how i got on the front of "g.q." magazine besides my looks. but to go from performing in the back of a hamburger restaurant to being in the front of "g.q." magazine takes a lot of lying to yourself that you can make it. and hard work. ♪ ♪

♪ >> funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by the coca-cola company, supporting this program since 2002. >> additional funding provided by these funders. >> and by bloomberg. a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. >> we are pbs.

( knock on door ) oh, dear. can i leave a few items here, cleggy, just for a short while? "what kind of items?" says he, suspiciously. just a few necessities for a picnic. an illicit picnic? you're sneaking away for a picnic? i wouldn't say "sneaking." i'm gonna regret this. i know i'm gonna regret this, but, all right, all right, bring 'em in. you're a good lad, cleggy. you're a lifesaver. how many is this picnic for? it was going to be for the wildlife appreciation society. and how many wildlife appreciators would that be, howard?

well, at the moment, and i blame lack of advertising, there's just myself and some young lady. well, there's a surprise. unh! i hope you're going by lorry, howard. oh, i can carry these. they're extremely light and portable. there's more? just one more. oh. howard! just for a short while, cleggy. you'll find i don't take up enormous amounts of room. you'll be amazed at the places i can curl up in. howard, you are dead. i will be if pearl sees her.

are you strong, assertive, and a decision-maker? you'd do better asking him if he's awake. what came after "strong"? are you strong, assertive, and a decision-maker? oh, you'd better give him a clue. we could be here all day.

is it "yes" or "no"? is there a "don't know"? oh, come on, you two, i'm closing for an hour. have you finished? i'm leaving that decision to him. i'm building his confidence. he's gonna become a decision-maker. ivy's asking have we finished. yeah, yeah, we've finished. you see? when you put your mind to it. little touch of the godfather there. unless you want another cup of tea. don't spoil it! you've made your decision. we've finished. it's about time. who's paying? he is. he is. it's your turn. hey up-- you made that decision quick enough. i may have created a monster here. howard!

git! go! ooh! ooh! norman clegg does russian dancing. truly: and with only one leg. could one of his legs have gone russian? bug off! ha ha, it's even got a russian name. ask him if he can do that bit where they squat down and kick their legs out. on one leg? wouldn't there be some danger of devaluing his rubles? i advise you to leave if you can't stand the sight of human suffering. who's suffering? howard-- when i can catch him. we can stand the sight of howard suffering. what's he done to turn your leg russian? he's stuck me with a problem.

clegg, problems are there to be solved. what's your problem? that's the problem. you've got a problem. auntie: don't bang it! smiler: it's an awkward shape. look who's talking. tom: it's covered in dust. how long has it been here? oh, it's been here a while. it's time it's earned its keep. what are you gonna do with it? you haven't got room in the window. oh, it's not going in the window. you're going to wheel it around the town for advertising purposes. why do you want to be advertising bad wigs? it's going to be advertising my clothing department. i want the word to get 'round that stuff from here can look good

even under a bad wig. he said it would be all right to call for him this morning. he said he'd be ready, and we'd go for a picnic. he said pearl would be at the coffee morning. clegg: tell her she shouldn't trust his arrangements. i know that voice. there's a norman clegg here somewhere. he lives here. i suppose that could explain it. what happened to the coffee morning? pearl's giving the coffee morning. they're all coming to her place. you see? a great piece of howard organization. and now, here i am, alone in this house with three male persons, on whose good manners i'm going to have to rely. tha can rely on mine, missus. i'm dedicated to preserving footpaths and innocence. and i'm still recovering from a nasty experience with the opposite sex... marriage. and i haven't finished my library book. it never rains, but it pours.

well, howard got you in here, suppose we leave it to howard to get you out? oh, i've tried that. i've been ringing him on the phone, i've been trying to signal him through the window. he's just ignoring his responsibilities. he can be slippery in times of crisis. tha's going about this all wrong. while ever howard thinks you want to get rid of the young lady, he's not bothered. he'd come 'round quick enough if he thought you wanted to keep her. that'd worry him. it'd worry me a bit. and i must confess to a certain nervousness. and where would you keep me, norman? i don't like it already. it's a good idea. it has the sort of deviousness i can admire as a divorced person. jealousy would soon bring howard 'round.

no, no, no. it's no good lying down. it wants to be upright. people can't see it down there. it looks almost human, doesn't it? compared to some people. much more of this, and we'll be forging a relationship. ah, that's better-- a bit of visual impact. now, prop that up where people can be amazed at the value on offer. ah, right. off you go, then, and i'll wait here for the rush. right. ugh! oh! oh!

if i had half a dozen like them, i could really organize a disaster. ah, excuse me. good heavens, where's the fire? i'm sorry if we startled you. leaping out from ambush-- why would it startle anybody? c-c-could you tell howard that we'd like to have a word with him, please? i think i know the word. i hear pearl using it to describe him sometimes. could you tell him we have important information for him? something he wouldn't want to miss. yes, i've seen him with that something he wouldn't want to miss. of course, he denied it. he said he just happened to bump into her. well, she's got enough padding. i bet he hardly felt the bump. hello, love, come in.

yes, i think it would be wise-- it gets a bit crowded out here. they're up to something. how can you say that? we haven't even twitched. call it experience. i haven't twitched. i'm way past twitch. and it's not something one could likely do as a policeman. well, that's it, then. when they deny it as convincingly as that, you know they're up to something. anyway, for once, mine's not involved. he's safely indoors. he's got no right to be safely indoors. he ought to be out here in peril with me. stop looking panic-stricken! tha supposed to look as if tha's enjoying it! yes, clegg, come along there. you've got to look like a man who's suddenly found a new interest. oh, but i have. i'm working on 45 ways to strangle howard. look, you go back inside. you're supposed to be interested in marina. we'll wait for howard. you-you want me to go back inside with marina, alone?

tha's got to make some effort. do you think i could distract her with food? what do marinas eat? i anticipate you for starters. be brave, cleggy. hold on to a banister or somewhat. uhh! oh, a little company. come in, norman. could i borrow your police whistle? psst! i'm sorry, i can't come out at the moment. it's impossible. there's so much to do here. suit yourself, howard. tha'll regret it. regret what? don't say we didn't warn thee. about what? about leaving that attractive young lady with an old rogue like norman clegg.

killer clegg. mr. smooch. used to be the hormone king hereabouts. it's all coming back to him. truly: threw us out, didn't he? "this woman and i want to be alone," he said. ( laughs ) norman clegg? oh, that'll be the day. he goes pale at the first whiff of perfume. ( laughs hysterically ) we seem to have a credibility gap. we've got to make it more plausible.