>> rose: from new york, some photographs of president kennedy never seen before, and the conversation with richard reeves. >> before world war ii, we were a relatively poor country. after the war, we owned the world. we were rich and we really didn't know how to act or what to do and whatnot, and they came along as our role models and whatever people think of his politics or whatever accomplishments or mistakes he made, i now realize they're never going away. it's 50 years, and it's thrilling to look at these pictures. it's like a walk on the beach with these extraordinarily interesting, beautiful people. >> rose: we conclude this evening with john c. mack, and photographs of mexico. >> mexico has a very, very subtle quality to it. it's very difficult to put into words, and i think that's what i try to do with the camera, to express it. it's something you have to go

down and feel on your own. it's something poetic. it's very heartfelt. it's fiery and compassionate. >> rose: kloppenberg, reeves, and mack when we continue. when the unexpected happens. whatever you want to do, members project from american express can help you take the first step. vote, volunteer, or donate for the causes you believe in at membersproject.com. take charge of making a difference.

captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: since president barack obama first emerge-- the national stage, virtually every aspect of his life has been dissected. biographers and the media have closely examined his personality his family, his background, and the role of race in the rise to the white house. harvard historian james kloppenberg's new book is called "reading obama." it focuses instead on obama's intellectual ideas.

he attempts to swalt the 43rd president in the broader context of the american political tradition. i am pleased to have him here at this table with me in boston at the public television station wgbh. welcome. >> a pleasure to be here. >> rose: so what are you doing writing about president obama? >> well, i had been in england working on a book that ends in the 19th century, and i found in england this deep fascination with barack obama, and after i had read and re-read his books, i discovered that there wasn't very much being written about his ideas. and so as i gave a series of talks in britain on that subject i realized that this was a topic that illuminated a dimension of the president that no one else had investigated. and so i decided to begin digging a little further. >> and talked to the people who had taught him, the people who had worked with him, and again and again i found the same pieces of this puzzle falling into place. and as my thoughts developed, it seemed to me there was a little

book to be written on this subject. >> rose: so what did you find? >> in the books, i found a much more sophisticated thinker than we are acustomed to seeing from prominent politicians. >> rose: book one and two? >> both book one and book two. a lot of people had written respectfully about "dreams of my father" -- >> a great book. >> yes. but i couldn't find anyone who took seriously the "audacity of hope." and i had given seven lectures in cambridge on american political thought, and i found when i re-read dreams and audacity of hope i found the themes i had laid out in the lectures were in "audacity of hope." my book is an attempt to locate him in the long american tradition. >> rose: you are chairman of the department of history at harvard, and it's almost like we're talking about thomas

jefferson, though we're talking about a man in his 40s who is the occupant of the white house in the third year of his presidency. >> no, it is extraordinary, and i think that it's not surprising that everyone wants to talk about the presidenciy, but as an historian, an intellectual historian, i was astonished by the books, i was astonished by -- >> they told you what? >> well, how thoughtful he is, and how reflective he is about how democracy works. here is a man who having come through a process of intellectual formation at a time when ideas are very much in flux comes to an understanding of how crucial it is for a democracy to find a way to deal with deep cultural and political differences. and rather than wanting to short circuit those differences he sees those differences as productive. when he writes, for example, about the constitution, he sees that james madison was aware at the time and after that the constitution that emerged was possible only because people were willing to change their minds in the process of conflict

and deliberation. and so, the process itself yields a document that is deliberately open ended. it's a document that can be amended. and that's the genius of the american system as obama sees it and as he describes it in the "audacity of hope." that to meevis remarkable. we inhabit, as you know, a time when people feel they have privileged access to a unitary truth. and obama, it seems to me, sees truth as something that changes over time, something that emerges as the american philosophical pragmatists saw truth. >> rose: do you see woodrow wilson in barack obama? >> i do, i do. there's work being done now on wilson that demonstrates the depth of the influence that william james in particular had on wilson, and both his flexibility in domestic politics and his ability to grow from his early adventures in latin america and elsewhere, to a man who saw an international ideal

and worked to achieve it, there is, i think, in obama, a sense that we're capable of more than most people imagine, that we can shift our perspectives. we can think more expansively than we thought, and we can accomplish more. >> rose: now, you know there are some who suggest the very themes that you are articulating is what's the problem, that this is a law professor in the white house, sees all sides, and, therefore, loses the capacity to lead. >> i think that's the moat common critique coming from the people on my side of the political spectrum. what strikes me as almost comical, certainly strange, is that he's criticized from the right wing as someone who's all too -- >> ideological. >> too much of an ideologue, too certain of his ideas, and i'm trying to think when we last had a president who was subject to both of those kinds of arguments. and i think it's odd that he is

as enigmatic as he is because he's given us a furl account of who he is and how he thinks than any president elected since woodrow wilson. >> rose: part of that comes-- my amateur observation-- is the people from the right are looking at it as they see policy. people on the left are looking at it as they see person. >> right. and i think they've got him wrong as a person. i think this commitment to deliberation goes all the way down. i think it's not a failure to lead. i think it's a respect for the process. and i think all of us are engaging now in monday morning quarterbacking. we look back now and say, gosh, we didn't get the health care plan we wanted, that we thought he was going to give us. what went wrong? if you look at the "audacity of hope" obama never claims he thinks it's possible for the u.s. to have a national health care system patterned on northern european models. he said americans are too happy with their own insurance plans and their own doctors. >> rose: and during the campaign he never argued for a public option. >> exactly.

so i think this is a fantasy that i think those of us on the left projected on to him that he never embraced himself. instead of doing what clinton did and saying very early, "this is what we're going to do," he wanted to see what would happen as the legislative process unfolded. it didn't unfold as he thought it would unfold, but i think it's a little too easy for us to look back with 20/20 hindsight and say how naive he was. this is the way he's operated ever since he was a student in college, at law school, in the community organization world in chicago, the legislature, the senate-- listening to other people, hearing what they have to say, and finding the threat tledz that connect, apparently, different points of view so that you can enable people to find a way to reach agreement. >> rose: the argument against that would be that's what he believed and he believed he could do that because he is supremely confident. but he did not execute that idea well once he got to washington. that's the argument against it.

>> right, and that's an argument that those of us in the academy can make with great confidence because we don't have to make that work. we don't have to deal with the recalcitrant congress that include opponents not only in the opposite party but our own party. >> rose: exactly. >> when i look back at the process, i have a hard time identifying moment at which he was not pushing hard enough. it seems to me that he was clearly all the way through trying to get the most expansive plan he could get and what the process -- >> in health care. >> on health care. and i'd say the same thing about the financial regulation package. it was the best he could get from that congress. >> rose: everybody who doesn't think he's a socialist thinks he's a pragmatist. >> right. >> rose: which is what you think? >> most people think he's a pragmatist in the sense of looking for the path of least resistance. >> rose: or, what you just said, you know, a half a loaf is better than no loaf. >> right but i think that actually -- >> or perfect is the enemy of

good. choose your-- >> well, there's a different way of thinking about pragmatism if you locate it in the tradition of james duit. then it's rooted in a disbelief in the existence of absolute truths. most people -- >> he believed in absolute truths? >> i think his christianity is a kind of believe in absolute truth but i don't think his christianity translates into a set of policy prescriptions, as the most vo siserous christians these days pretends that christianity does. i think he does have solid values, but i think like the pragmatists, he's doubtful that those values translate neatly into a particular line of policy. special as a result, i think he is more willing to listen it people who disagree with him and take his points of view seriously. >> rose: fisaid i think he's an ambitious politician, you would have no quarrel with that? >> none at all. and i think everyone who knows

him-- this is a pattern that surprised me, frankly-- came fully into focus is he's been doing that his entire life. he's been absorbing what he hears from a variety of different people, and that's what made him exceptionally good as the editor of the "law review." it made him exceptionally good as a community organizer, and i think that's what made him going as a legislator. whether it will make him equally successful as an executive, i don't know, but the jury is not in yet. >> rose: you study his tenure when he was president of the "harvard law review." what did you learn from that? >> that was really an amazing experience because part of what interested me as an intellectual historian was the ferment in ideas in the american academy during the period of time leading up to the years he spent at the harvard law school. and in the "harvard law review," i think almost uniquely during the distinguished tradition of the publication, that's a time when social theory is bursting forth in a wide range of articles in the "harvard law

review. there are the black letter law articles and technical articles but there are also articles in the ideas of philosophical pragmatism, the idea of history and science -- >> the purpose of law and all that. >> that's right. and so this is a moment when people are rethinking of purposes of law and how we should understand the role of law in society. obama himself comes up with a theme that his professor of constitutional law, laurence tribe, uses as the light motif in one of his books, that the law is a conversation. it's the nation arguing with its conscience, rather than thinking of the constitution as having a fixed unitary or original meaning, the people with whom obama studied and he himself understand that the constitution from the beginning has been alive and has changed and that our understandings of it have changed and must continue to change as our culture develops. >> rose: i've been surprised that laurence tribe is not in a more exalted position in the administration. are you? we're in the middle of the presidenciy and not even yet to

the second term so there may well be something for laurence tribe to do and he may well be doing work now beneath the radar that the presidents important. i wouldn't rule that out. >> rose: do you know something we don't know? >> no. >> rose: staying with him, you have said-- and this is interesting-- he support most penetrating political thinker elected to the presidency in the last century. that takes us back to 1908. 1908. >> i think the only people i would put in that category would be woodrow wilson, abraham lincoln, john quincy adams and the founders. >> rose: he's there with them? >> i'm not sure yet. i think it's a little early. i think those books-- and i do use want plural-- i think those books are remarkable. >> rose: wait, woodrow wilson would have been in the last century, and you said the most penetrating political thinker elected to the presidency in the past century. so you're saying he's the most--

beyond wilson. >> i said since wilson. i wouldn't put him beyond wilson or any of the others i mentioned. i think what's striking is the paucity of original thought -- >> what does that say to you? >> i think it's very difficult to be reflective and survive in the maelstrom of electoral politics. there's not much time for thought. >> rose: what do you think of the idea that ronald reagan is admired and has among both left and right-- not entirely a rather high position in terms of successful presidenciy? >> i think there's more to being a successful president than having interesting ideas and there's something about having interesting ideas that doesn't necessarily translate into successful executive authority. >> rose: where would you put john f. kennedy? >> very successful campaigner. alas, we'll never know -- >> three years. >> some achievements. but, again, i think a stillborn

presidenciy. it's very hard to say. i think the question is whether or not obama's next two years-- and some of us would like to think next six years-- will redeem the promise of the ideas he lays ow in the books because they are quite ambitious, and i think that if he's able to work further toward the agenda that he lays out in the "audacity of hope," he will have been a transformative president. and i think the major pieces of legislation that have already been enacted are, if they're able to stand-- and i think they will-- going to be remembered 100 years from now as major landmarks in american history. >> rose: let's assume that our metric, our judgment is not the historic quality of the health care legislation but a political judgment as to whether the health care legislation did severe damage to his possibilities politically. >> he has said more than once that it was the right thing to

do, and i believe he -- >> if it makes him a one-term president-- >> that's what he has said -- >> you agree with that? >> i think it is true that that is a piece of legislation that would have been-- in fact was-- impossible to get through at any other point in 20th century american history. people have been trying to do it since world war i, and every other industrialized nation has accomplished it. we have not. so i do think it was something worth fighting for and worth getting through in whatever imperfect form it took just as social security and medicare were imperfect as they were enacted. they then expanded. the kinks were worked out, and they're now venerable parts of american culture, i think it's the best he could have gotten but it's certainly a flawed plan. there's no question about it. >> rose: i ask this question with genuine curiosity. witness the fact that i said to bill clinton, lots of people think you are very, very, very, very bright, one of the smartest guys to occupy the white house. and tony blair has said as much to me about his observation. and clinton had an interesting answer to that, basically demur,

as you would expect him, at the same time talking about connecting the dots with the sort of skill that he had. how do you measure a president's intelligence? >> well, i think he and bill clinton are an interesting contrast because i think the analytical intelligence that shines through in obama's books is quite remarkable, and i don't think anything clinton has written indicates that kind of intelligence. >> rose: also the level of self-revelation. >> right, right. but in terms of the ability to work a crowd, the ability to win friends, the ability, perhaps, to gladhand across the aisle, clinton may have had a genius for that that we won't see again in our lifetime. whether or not obama can translate the kind of talent he has to the job of president of the united states remains to be seen. >> rose: that is the big question. >> i wouldn't rule it out. did tdoes seem to me as though it's still fairly early.

you remember in 1982, ronald reagan's prospects looked worse than obama's do now, and bill clinton's prospects looked worse than obama's do now. i think in our hyperventilating commentarriat tend to exaggerate what's happening this week, and as significant as the election was, it was a typical correction that we associate with all bi-elections, and the last three elections have been swing elections. so it may well be that we're going to see this kind of back-and-forth now for some period of time. and i don't see it as necessarily an indication that 2012 is going to deliver either the house or the senate or the white house to the republican party. >> rose: reminds me of mrs. churchill who said to winston churchill after his defeat in 1946, it may be a blessing in disguise. and mr. churchill said it's a hell of a disguise. >> i wouldn't describe it as a pleasing in disguise, but i wouldn't say the presidenciy is dead on arrival at this point.

>> rose: so who has influenced barack obama's mind? >> that's a very difficult question to answer in short order. i think he is seriously influenced by social christianity, by the gospels-- jeremiah writing, i think was a powerful influence on him. what jeremiah wright does is a system to fit the lessons of empathy he learned from his mother. he's an inheritor of the tradition of the social gospel from the early 20th century as inflekt bide the black church. and i think what obama sees in him is someone who offers a form of religiosity that transforms the lives of the people in his congregation. and obama comes to know him while he's working as a community organization on the south side of chicago and trying to figure out how you can put together the pieces of the

alinsky-inspired organizing world, the catholic community in which obama finds himself working, the political world of chicago politics and this world of the black church network. and i think jeremiah wright above any of the people in those worlds inspires in obama the sense that it is possible to organize people and to motivate them and to get them to make a difference. and so i think he's a very important figure in obama's life and i think it really was painful for him to have to give that speech in philadelphia. but i think that speech -- >> painful? why was it painful? >> i think what it requires him to do is dissorbate himself publicly from a man who had a very profound influence on him. and you'll remember that he says, "i can no more disown jeremiah wright than i can disown my own grandmother." the point obama makes in that speech which is very powerful, i think, is those who are unwilling to acknowledge the possibility of change in

american race relations are committing treason against american history. there has been dramatic change in american race religions, and obama knows that from his own life. what he thought wright was doing was denying that american whites would ever be anything other than racist, and that obama does not agree with, not surprisingly. his own mother, his own grandparents have shown him that's not necessarily true. he's aware -- >> even his own rise in american politics. >> that's right. he knows firsthand. and one of the powerful parts of "dreams to my father" is the passage in which he's talking about how difficult it was for him as a teenager in hawaii coming up age with other mixed race kids who would talk about whitey. and it was just not possible for obama to share that degree of hatred because those are his grandparents. that's his mother. and so i think he has a deeper commitment to the possibility of

transcending hatred between the races than many people, both white and black, have. and i think the quick judgment that he was throwing reverend wright under the bus is hard to sustain when you read the speech carefully because nowhere in the speech does he deny the persistence and the reality of racism. and one of the points that david clough makes in his account of the campaign, when it became apparent the speech needed to be done, they were wondering if they should get the speechwriters together and obama said no, i've been thinking about this for a long time. james kloppenberg demonstrates the influences that have shaped obama's distinctive world view, including ellison and rols, and recent theorists engaged in debates about feminism, critical race theories and cultural norms kloppenberg shows obama's sophisticated understanding of

american history. obama's interest in compromise, reasoned public debate, and the patient nurturing of civility is a sign of strength not weakness, kloppenberg argues. he locate a truce in madison and lincoln and especially in the philosophical pragmatism of william james and john dewy, who nourished generations of american progressives, black and white, female and male, through much of the 20th century-- albe it with mixed results. thank you for coming. >> thank you for having me. >> 50 years ago this month john f. kennedy was elected prat of the united states. for his 34 months in oofs, his family images captivated the country. sheer a look at some kennedy family film footage.

>> rose: presidential historian richard reeves joins me to talk

about the remarkable photographs and the texts that go with it and the stories that they tell. welcome. >> good to be here. >> rose: how did this come about? >> abrams called me, the art publisher, and said they had the rights to all of the official white house photographs, along with the film, a film is on dvd, from cecil stoughton, and that theymented to put it together. and i thought i don't, you know, the kennedys looking beautiful and like that. but when i saw the stuff, it knocked me out. i mean, it made you realize again, when you said how they thrilled the country and whatnot it's pretty evident in here why they did. i mean, they became-- they are such towering cultural figures, and they taught us how to be -- you know, before world war ii, we were a poor country, relatively poor. after the war, we owned the world. we were rich and we really

didn't know how to act or what to do or whatnot, and they came along as our role models and whatever people think of his politics or whatever accomplishments or mistakes he made, i now realize they're never going away. it's 50 years , and it's thrilling to look at these pictures. it's like a walk on the beach with these extraordinarily interesting, beautiful people. >> rose: tell me about camelot. >> right. well, camelot never existed, of course. it-- after john kennedy was killed in 1963, his wife, jackie invented camelot. she called up teddy white, theodore h. white the author of "the making of the president" and established --. >> rose: this was one week after the assassination. >> one week, one week. she's a tough lady. and they sat up in hyannis port for a weekend while "life" magazine held all its deadlines

and she more or less dictated-- i'll give you a bit of teddy white's notes. >> rose: this is amazing stuff. >> this is him, when his notebooks were opened a couple of years another he's quoting her. there's one thing i wanted to say, one thing kept through my mind, the line from a musical comedy. i want to say this one thing, it's been almost an obsession with me. the music comedy's almost an obsession. at night before we go to bed, we had an old vick trolla. he'd play a couple of records. i'd get ow of bed at night and play it for him when it was so cold getting out of bed. it was a song he loved. he loved camelot. it was the song he loved most at the end of on a vick trolla 10 years old. it's the last record, the last side of camelot, said camelot, don't let it be forgot that for one shining moment there was camelot. never had been mentioned. camelot was then playing on broadway, and kennedy loved show

tunes. he loved broadway. his wife liked the opera and symphony. that stuff he had trouble staying weak through but he loved broadway musicals and loved the line, "once there was a place called camelot." but he never heard that-- i mean jackie owned the country at that moment and word for word, "life" magazine did a spread describing it all as camelot. >> rose: all of them understood the power of image. >> tremendously. john kennedy had one advantage we didn't think about while, i suppose, dur the campaign, and his presidency, but that is his father had been president of a movie studio. >> rose: rko. >> rko pictures, and they knew how entertainment was promoted. and they knew enough to sell themselves in that same way. they also had new equipment,

sometimes equipment that wasn't on the market. that's why you had these old color pictures of them, even when they were-- they were little kids. i think the old man thought these are going to come in useful some day, and they certainly-- they summer did. but kennedy would sometimes spend-- this is a man without patience, lived life as a race against boreddom, and would cut people off as soon as he got -- >> the gist of-- >> what he had wanted. couldn't play 18 holes of golf. he would always get bored after six or seven. yet, he would spend hours looking at photographs of himself, of his children, to decide which one-- of stoughton's photographs-- to decide which ones would be released and what impact they would have on people. >> rose: what was the difference between the president and the first lady because there is the story that when she left the premises, he would then push a button, which would go off in the photographer's desk--

>> the photographer's was directly below the president. >> rose: was this the first official white house photographer? >> yes. he created -- cecil stoughton was a captain in the army, assigned by the signal corps, but no one knew he had studied under margaret burg white and when kennedy wanted him in the oval office, he sat at the desk and press a button and one of the times he pressed that button is if mrs. kennedy-- she had been a photographer, too. she was a friendly fire-- photographer for the "washington star" mrs. kennedy did not want the children exploited on the level kennedy did, as soon as the car went out the gates of the white house, he'd press that button, call in the kids, and these famous photos of the kids dancing around, and young john

under the president's desk and whatnot, were all done at times mrs. kennedy was away, and then i assume they had a husband and wife fight when she got home or saw them in "look" magazine or on television. >> rose: but wasn't she responsible for the famous salute of the president's son, understood that at that moment-- >> as the casket was going by, and young john-john. but as you'll see in the book and you'll see in the films, young john-john, to her distress and to her father's, too, was fascinated with military toys. he was always carrying around a toy machine gun. when his father independented the troops, he'd march with him. the army didn't much like this. but he dso that saluting in the family for young john, there are a lot of shots of him saluting his mother and his father said that-- she said this is the time to salute when his father's casket went by.

>> rose: tell me about the images i'm going to see. the first image is the family at cape cod? >> they're at cape cod, but the interesting thing is, they're at a place called squaw island. they rented a place a couple miles from hyannis port, from a family compound on hyannis port, because it had become such a world media center. i mean, partly, i suppose, the beginning of-- they probably had something to do with the creation of paparazzi, but this is on the porch of somebody else's house a few miles from their own where they really could hide out. it would be just them and the dogs. they had a lot of dogs. >> rose: i went up to hyannis port, went on a bus, paid my way during the summer of '62, and worked in hyannis port and would see the president when he would come around hyannis port. hfs the most remarkable thing in my life, you know, and my job as an overnight sort of clerk, was

to make sure that all the papers were delivered to awe the people who were staying at the hyannis port yacht club-- some of these pictures remind me of stuff they saw when -- >> the amazing thing is-- >> like a freshman in high school. >> the pictures, which, unfortunately, ended in 1963, was again and again, they're going to church. they're walking the streets of hyannis port. and there are civilians, ordinary american tourists, all around them, and they'd stop and they'd talk. today, of course, you can't get close to a president. there's a picture of him where he's crossing in front of a 1953 chevy, 1954 chevy, which i once owned, and the car just-- which had been driving down the main street-- was this far from the president, and young john. today, the car would be in rhode island. >> rose: exactly. exactly.

all right, the next picture, this is being sworn in as the 35th president of the united states. >> well, this is the picture that got kennedy to hire him. stoughton, who was on his own, was the only photographer who took the picture from this angle. all the other photographers were on the stand out front. it's a great photographic trick that he had probably learned from a-- there was a photographer named fine on the ""herald" tribune" who took the great picture if you remember of babe ruth from the back when he was dying, which won a-- which won a pulitzer prize. and i think that probably was in stoughton's mind when he thought -- >> we'll talk more about that in a moment, the idea of what the president wanted to be expeen not be seen who he wanted to be seen with and who hemented not to be seen with, and his own consciousness if somebody took the picture he did not want in existence, he would go get somebody to grab-- to go get

that film. >> yup. >> a correspondent for the white house, the first time he met kennedies by a subway at the capitol, and as they were walking along, george smathers, senator from florida, was-- he was a conservative republican-- he had his arms around the miss florida contest-- contestants, and the "time life" photographer immediately banged off a number of shots. they pulled kennedy into it, right into the middle of it, and banged off a few of those, and as they stepped away, kennedy said to the photographer-- who he had just met-- go get that film and he did it. to this day he says i don't know why i did it. >> rose: the next one is watching the countdown of the rocket carrying the first

americans into space. >> right. that's alan shepherd, and there's a second picture that follows it immediately because the president saw his wife through a doorway and said, come in here. you've got to see this." we've forgotten all this. but at that time, he had been told the odds on shepherd's survival were about three to one. >> rose: wow. >> that's a pretty nervous group of guys there. >> rose: the odds of him surviving were three to one? >> 75%. >> rose: next is leaving home for mass on good friday. this is palm beach. >> yes, that's the kennedy house in palm beach, which, as they say, is on the wrong side of the traction in palm beach but they made it the right side. >> rose: indeed next is marilyn monroe at the famous party after his 45th birthday party where she sang happy birthday to the displeasure of some. >> she was sewn into that dress. that dress had no buttons -- >> jon: that's bobby to the left

isn't it? and arthur schlesinger. >> another arthur schlesinger, that's what i love. look at the expression on his face. she was whispering something to kennedy. >> rose: the next one is the fifth birthday of caroline kennedy. the next bon is the kennedy at the orange bowl, survivors of the brig aerkd 2506, after the bay of pigs disaster. >> they thought-- kennedy thought he was going to be roundly booed by the anti-castro cubans because of the great failure in the bay of pigs and she was there and fluent in sparn, and they cheered and cheered and cheered. she spoke before he did, and she-- and when he spoke, she translated his words into spanish, too. and so that he-- kennedy never

got-- if the polls shot up after the bay of expirkz he said the worst do you, the more they love you. >> rose: next is j.f.k. and john jr. outside his office. now, she loved to have him photographed like this. >> this was a jackie-- jackie loved the idea of-- obviously, she loved her children-- the -- >> portraying him as-- >> portraying him as a guy who could be inside talking about nuclear war and then walk outside and play with his kids and then come back into the meeting. i think that was her vision of what a modern president and father should be like. >> rose: let's look at the last one. november 22. this is leaving the-- just made a speech in-- >> he had made a speech in fort worth, and then he had gone to a little fund-raiser for a local candidate inside, and they're on

their way to the limousine to go to dallas. >> rose: there is a dvd here, film footage, some extraordinary pictures-- thank you, my friend. richard reeves. >> rose: this atum of 2010 marks a historic period for mexico, commemorating the mexican revolution. john mack spent a decade traveling through mexico in an effort to capture a portrait the country. the resulting book is called "revealing mexico." john mack joins me now. he is, as some of you know, the john of john mack, and john mack the father, and we have been great friends since we grew up together in north carolina and attended duke university together. in a way, this is family. so welcome. >> thank you, charlie. thanks for having me. >> rose: how did this come

about? >> well, i went to shoot in mexico for the first time in 2001, and it was just an amazing experience. i ended up living down there, really enjoying the culture down there. it was actually in 2007 i was approached by the federal government. they had a group of people who were running bicentennial events for 2010. so three years out they planned artistic projects for the year 2010. and they said, look, john, we really want to do something about mexico." it's not so much the theme of 2010 in celebration so much as showing the country is unified. so the idea came up to travel to each of the 31 states, mexico is a very divided country. extremely diverse. so we traveled to 31 states, mixing north, south, coastal and central regions, sort of a mixed salad, to break that divide, regional divide, and at the same time doing portraits and interviews of a huge spectrum of people of mexican citizens.

so carlos swin is in the book air street taco seller is independent book, lenore kerington is in the book, karls fuentes is in the booker a fisherman is in the book, sort of the whole gamut. >> rose: you're looking for what in terms of the photographs? >> i never knew exactly what i was looking for but the essence of what i was looking for. i think mexico has a very, have subtle quality to it. it's very difficult to put into words and i think that's what i try to do with the camera, to express it. it's something you have to go down and feel on your own. it's a-- it's something poetic. it's very heartfelt. it's fiery and compassionate. and it's interesting. i can't tell what came first. is it the people that bring that to the country or the land that brings that to the country? just sort of this beautiful thing between land and the people where each sort of. breathes this into each other. and this was really what i was

trying to capture in this book. >> rose: you mentioned that the country doesn't want to celebrate too much. >> well, it's-- 2007 was a tough time. this is when calderon came into power, and he had just beat lopez for the presidenciy, highly divided country at the time. and i think with all the country had been through leading up to this big date, i don't think they wanted to show a party. i think they wanted to do something which was more than a party, something much more meaningful, something to bring the country to the next step. >> rose: there was this constant ongoing violent conflict between the state and narcoterrorism. >> correct, correct. i think-- one thing i will say to this point and it was quote in the ""wall street journal"," we're just seeing that-- that's

less than 1% of the country. more than 99% of the mexican citizens living there are victims of a commerce that they do not have any profit from and of which they have no demand. so these things are going on. it has made international headlines, but it is-- it's a true image in the sense it is going on but it's a false image in the sense we're not seeing the other side of what mexico really is. and this was an ideal time to bring a project like this. >> rose: you hope this will communicate that sense, this is the soul of the country i have come to know and love. >> correct. mexico is a very deceiving country. we share the same border with it. we share a lot of modern, everyday things with mexico, but it's not-- it's night and day. it's night and day, these two countries, the united states and mexico. you have to go beyond cancun. you have to go beyond cabo san lucas to feel this out. this is a deep cultural energy that is just rooted and sort of has permeated all imgroonts who

made it to mexico, are still living there. >> rose: in an interesting way the united states is connect toltd narcoterrorism in the sense the demand for drugs comes from the united states and the weapons come from the united states. >> completely. i think the fact is-- i think the statistic is 90% of all traced weapons in these crime scenes are linked back to u.s. guns. so, i mean, the united states, we can't point the finger anymore. >> rose: do they believe that could ron will be successful in terms of being able to do what what happened in colombia? >> there are many, many different opinions and you get a lot of them here in this book. i think it's a no-win game. i think something has to be done. i'm not sure if i'm a fan of legalization. i think that would probably be the quickest way to end this. it's a touchy subject, and i really don't know. i don't know what the solution is. >> rose: and you in mexico-- >> might i just say, i think the united states has-- they must have the same problem.

how do the drugs get from the border to new york? where's the route? there must be some sort of stable route here in the united states that is just left to happen. so i'm just wondering, could the same sort of battle be fought here in the united states? but we just don't address it. we just point the finger at mexico and say take care of it. >> rose: are you planning to make mexico your home for the rest of your life? >> no, no. it's where my heart sthat's for sure. i'm 100% gringo but my heart is definitely in mexico. >> rose: a part of you will always be there but it's not necessarily-- >> correct. there's so much i want to see and explore and do especially as a photographer. changing my base is something that's very important. >> rose: what's next for you before we look at these photographs? >> france, i think. >> rose: really? >> yes. france. it's just a perfect location, southern france. >> rose: that's terrific. the first slide is outside the ex-convent-- >> in chalulu.

all of the images are courtesy of robert mann gallery in new york. >> rose: meaning you can see them there? >> you can see them there. they are my representations in new york, and they will be doing a show in 2011 on this. i think this is just one of those beautiful poetic things that is just so typical to mexico. and i think these are also the types of scenes, like i said before, you don't get this in cabo san looseas and cancun. >> rose: you mean vacation places. >> yes, vacation place where's people go looking for the same luxury they get in the united states and tropical sun and good bargains. that's not the mexico i'm trying to show. here is the first astronaut, the first mexican astronaut into space, and one of the reasons i wanted to show him in this, was the hollywood image of mexicans with sombreroes and pistols and tequila, it's not happening anymore. we have astronauts heading to out of space, and he actually

brought a tortilla into outer space, and astronauts now when they go up there can order tortillas. it's part of the main menu because unlike bread, they don't have crumbs flying around the space shuttle. mariachi, iconic sound from mexico. >> rose: where was this? >> this was shot in salteo, one of the northern areas of mexico. >> rose: the next is-- >> that's a tough one. ixtapalapa. >> rose: after the corn harvest with the snow-covered volcano. >> correct. interestingly enough, this is just outside mexico city, this huge megametropolis, and it just shows you some of the peaceful poetic landscape, but then again-- those are two volcanos back there-- that intense fiery thing which just-- the land is

just breathing fire. it's something very unique. >> rose: next is carlo slim taken in mexico city in 2009. >>yes, i liked this image. at this time the photo was taken-- i'm not sure where he is now-- he was the richest man in the world. he's a very big art collector. >> rose: he's in the top three. >> it's changing so quickly. and i just like that very rural picture behind him, that kind of contrast. >> rose: all right, next is a school girl and friend in a small village. >> correct. >> rose: this is one i liked a lot. >> this is just one of those very poetic moments where i'm sitting in a small hut watching a woman make tortillas in a small indigenous community, and this little girl came in fro fr pool and started talking to this boy and luckily i was there to catch it. >> rose: next is lenora carrington. >> a very famous artist, a surrealist from england living in mexico for quite some time. wonderful woman. >> rose: carlos fuentes the

great writer. >> correct, yes. >> rose: where is this photograph? this is taken where, mexico city? >> mexico city. >> rose: what is the population of mexico city, 20 million? >> they say between 20 million and 40 million. so give or take 20 million. >> rose: the next is ignacio lopez. >> a great actor from the golden age of mexico. very luck tow have him in this book. >> rose: father and daughter. >> next is two boys on the pedestrian street. >> this is-- this-- i think what these images try and show is something we've really lost in this country, and that's the appreciation for the beauty of simplicity. >> rose: right. >> and mexico is full of that sort of simple life, and it's amazing the people who go down there, especially americans, who go down there and come back leaving saying they either see

poverty or desolation in simplicity, and then there are those who see the butte of it. i've always found sort of for gringos those two sides of the spectrum. >> rose: what kind of camera were you using. >> a leica. >> rose: all black and white. >> all black and white. i think color is-- first of all, the bookmark for mexico is saturated with color folklore, and black and white, there's much more of a dialogue between the image and the audience which is something i wanted to create. >> rose: the congregates inside a that keyedderal. >> the catholic church say huge thing down there. and it's just one of those moments. i can't-- it's very difficult for me to put words to these things. i think they sort of speak for themselves. >> rose: a girl wades in a small cove on the beach of puerto vallarta.

how far away from her are you? >> i'm standing on a bij. i'm going to guess i'm 200 feet. >> rose: the next you can describe to me. >> these three men here, they're-- they sing a cappella. what is interesting, i included them in the book as a portrait, and when i sat in front of them, they said they're going to sing, and i thought uh-oh. and they came out and they sang. it brought tears to my eyes. it was such beautiful-- it's just something you have to here. it's amazing what mexico has and i think the one thing that surprise meas most, what i've learned in this country, is that most americans have no idea that their southern neighbor has this. as a rich, rich plural, dense, culturally vibrant country, and we can't underestimate its power anymore. we can't afford to do it. >> rose: is part of your own aspiration that people will grow to appreciate this and make them

want to come and be a good neighbor. >> correct. i want the best-- i have been a servant to this country since i've been there. and this book-- 100% of the proceeds go to a foundation in mexico supporting arts and culture. this is my offering of everything this country has done for me. and the entire intent behind this was to show-- to give better face to this country that needs a better image so much these days. >> rose: how do you think this experience has changed you? >> i would say this-- i wear death on my shoulder now. i-- i-- i've-- coming from the united states, very sort of safe life, somewhat sterile, i think, when you compare it to the life i live in mexico. i think in mexico, you really learn something about the proximity of detector how it's just always with you. and i'll give you an example real quickly. i drove my car from tiapas, the

most southern state government mexico to, new york. this was with the writer suzanne. from chiapark s to maparos, a road full of potholes, full of dogs. you have to stay weak. you valley to pay attention while you're driving. there's no cruise control in mexico. you really have to stay wide weak. flowers, gorgeous. we get to the border. we get to brownsville, texas, six-lane hoirkz perfectly paved, you could do cruise control, fall asleep and, rife in new york, unless a police officer pulled you over for going two miles an hour over the speed limit. mexico for me was you have to keep your eyes open because you're never totally safe. and i think that from the life they came from, it's something that's just been hugely valuable in my life. >> rose: good for you. john mack, book title "revealing mexico."

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