♪ >> this is "bbc newsnight." funding for this presentation is made possible by -- the freeman foundation of new york, stowe, vermont, and honolulu newman's own foundation andand union bank. >> at union bank, our relationship managers work hard to understand the industry you operate in. working to nurture new ventures and help provide capital for key strategic decisions. we offer expertise and tailored solutions in a wide range of industries.

what can we do for you? >> and now, "bbc newsnight." >> welcome to "rendezvous" here in central london. to an emmy, three great guests, all leading figures in their fields from the worlds of politics, business, and cultures. people who helped shape and influence the world we live in today. waiting in the greenroom, an acclaimed actress who starred as a burmese pro-democracy leader, suu kyi. and a biologist, author, and secularist. and the foreign minister of bangladesh. all that right here on "rendezvous." ♪

>> first, richard dawkins, known to many around the world for his similar -- seminal book, which popularized the genes interview evolution. and eighth used in human is, he is upset with religious believers all over the world with his book in which he insists that a seat or natural crater does not exist in that religious faith is a delusion. welcome to the show. why do you get so upset by people who believe in god? >> i do not really get that upset. i am a passionate believer in the truth. that means the scientific truth about the real world but as i get a little bit impatient with people who substitute believe switcher not based upon evidence, not based upon any reasonable view of what might be true about the real world, based on tradition and holy books and authority and revelations. >> when did you become an atheist? you actually went with a blank in school. >> most people in england in my

generation went to an anglican school. at first, i started to get uneasy about it at the age of about nine. i realize there were a lot of different religions, and they cannot all be right. >> what the mean, they cannot all be right? the basic religions, is long, today is and, believe in one god. >> they kill each other, don't they? >> but they believe in one supreme lender -- a leader. so at ninth, you thought they could not all be right. >> i thought it was an accident that was brought up -- in a christian country. at about 15, i did pretty much given up christianity. i still believe in some sort of vague principle. then i learned about evolution and darwin and realize there is absolutely no reason to believe in any kind of super naturalist things, so i give it up. >> your parents are interested

in science, weren't they? >> my father, who just died, was educated in science. and my mother, too, is interested in scientific things come interested in the natural world. i had a pretty sight to the upbringing from my parents. >> why can you not see religion in the private domain? there are people all over the world who might be suffering, and they may need the in visible means of support. >> i would love to live in the private domain, but that is not what happens. we have bishops in the house of lords. we have government-supported faith schools. we have people going to war over religion, killing over religion. suicide bombing over religion. the religious people do not keep it to themselves. they do impose it upon the rest of us. therefore, it is not a question

of live and let live. i would be happy to live and let live it that is what the majority of religious people do. >> you think the public at large were to have a better understanding of science that they would all become atheists like you? >> not all, but a very substantial number was, yes. >> why do think that? >> if you look at the national academy of sciences in america or the society in britain, which are both the bodies of scientists, about 90% of both those bodies are atheist, non- believers. so it looks as though -- there's plenty of other evidence that the more educated you are in science, the morse -- the less likely you are to believe in anything supernatural. >> but there are signs. even in the u.k., robert winston, a committed -- >> some really do believe i and the virgin birth and things like

that usually you'll find they believe in some sort of thing, rather a good thing that people should believe in religion. or they believe in some sort of vague great spirits, life at the base of the universe. it is seldom that you can them down, they really truly believe in miracles. >> you have written several books about science. your most recent one, "the magic of reality," which is how we know what is true when you try to explode certain myths. you look at evolution and so on. do you see it as a mission for yourself, that you want to educate people better? >> of course i want to educate people about science, but it is a book for children, nothing to do with religion. and take-bathetic towards religion automatically. but it is a book of science for children, for young people. it covers a number ever assigned

to the questions like what is the rainbow, what is the son, what a bad things happen? who was the first person? these are all chapter headings. the chapter begins with myths, but then it goes on to the real science. that is what it is supposed to be about. >> do you lament the fact that the general public on the the whole fine science quite baffling and do not know very much about it? >> well, i am not sure that they do. there is a great appetite for science. there are enormous audiences for the natural history program. >> that is here in the u.k. especially. >> but also, widely spread over the world as well. i think there is an appetite for science, and people are intrigued by it. there may be a feeling that it is difficult, and it is, but you can still appreciate science without getting into the difficult the details. >> but do we really need to know, for instance, if you use

an ipod person to come and you need to know how it works in order to appreciate it? why does it matter? >> you have to be a pretty dull sort of person that you're not curious how it works. if you're using an iphone or driving a car or flying a plane. anybody with any human spirit has surely have to be curious how it works. >> we will explore some more questions in a moment. our next guest is also a woman of science, but she turned to politics instead of the foreign minister of bangladesh, dr. dipu moni, said in medicine and public health in her country, the u.k., and the u.s., but politics is in her blood. her father was a politician in bangladesh, and that was then east pakistan in 1971. she is one of the best known women leaders in south asia. dr. dipu moni, welcome to "rendezvous." your country is now 40 years old, so congratulations.

it as kind of reached middle- age. >> thank you. [laughter] >> something we all have in common here. and your fellow guest, richard dawkins. obviously, you studied medicine. you are a woman of science. deified any inherent contradiction in that and also being a practicing muslim? >> i have not found in the conflict in being a person of science. i studied medicine, public health, and a lot. but i do not see any conflict between these subjects and my religion. and i think my faith is my birthright, and i am comfortable with it. and my religion also asks me to ask questions, to understand the world, the universe. and i tried to do that. so far, i have not found any conflict.

i am happy with it. >> bangladesh is almost a predominantly muslim country. a lot of people use our women are treated in muslim countries as a barometer of how advanced the nation is. what do you say to people in the look at bangladesh and they see that you are a woman and foreign minister. the prime minister is aware men. in pakistan, you had a late bid is there. and so on. what is it about south asia that allows women to assume these political roles, and yet, when you look at the population at large, women do really still suffer a great deal of discrimination. >> if i talk about bangladesh, in bangladesh, there are problems with the women suffering, but it is not more than anywhere else in the world. but what we have is, because of the culture that i talked about, women are seen, whether it is

within the domestic area or in the social area or within the state, women and at seen as -- second-class citizens. women have a lot of opportunity, but we do have troubles. we are, like anywhere else, we're trying to address those. but culturally, i think -- in buddhism, they said that men are carriers of knowledge, but women are carriers of wisdom. in hinduism, all the great goddesses -- and in islam. >> it is a mix. >> yes, and in islam, women lead at ritual. and the first muslim to convert to islam was a woman. the first martyr. >> that was the one of the profit mohammed. you see religion as a force of good on the whole. >> in our country, that has happened. and mothers are very important

in our families. decision makers, as well. >> so, richard, you hear what's dr. dipu moni is saying, that religion need not be the district of thing you say. >> the basis for the partition of the indian subcontinent, india and the two halves of pakistan, was religion. there was no other reason. in bangladesh, it was part of bengal, and your national neighbors would be west bengal. but because of religion, you became part of pakistan. there were the most hideous massacres over religion. you cannot possibly say that religion has been a force for good in the indian subcontinent. as for the treatment of women, i am delighted to hear that things are already in bangladesh, but they certainly are not in west pakistan. >> i pakistan. >> yes, where a lot of women, it

is truly terrible in many respects. >> in bangladesh also, we have problems, but it is not more than anywhere else in the world. i mean, we have problems, women facing problems, women facing violence. even in the developed countries. whenever we talk about women's empowerment on a global level, we talk about norway. still, there are so many domestic violence cases in norway itself. it is a very difficult thing. is that a personal level, a societal level. >> ok, i want to -- >> but when you talk about partition of india, actually i believe that that is a misnomer. bengal was partitioned and another area. >> we're going to stay with the theme of strong women leaders, because i know you just recently

visited burma. i want to bring in our next guest, because the burmese pro- democracy leader, suu kyi, has very much been in the news these past 12 months. of course, she has said she will be standing for elections in burma. there's a new film about her life called "the lady." she is played by a chinese actress, and the actress will come on in a moment. first, a clip of the film. >> it may be a little late to be saying this, but you realize i have never actually spoken in public before. >> there's no time like the present. we will be watching from the site. ♪ >> michele yo, welcome to

"rendezvous." >> it is a real pleasure to be here. >> you have played in this marvelous role, which i have seen. it is and highly acclaimed performance. >> thank you. >> how did you feel about this role? it was quite emotionally draining, actually, when you see it. >> it truly was a real privilege and honor to be able to, you know, have the opportunity to portray suu kyi, who is a real big hero of mine. and it was, because we focused very much on her life from 1988 until 1999. 1988 was a turning point for her, because prior to that, for 16 years, she was living in oxford as the good mother, the good housewife, writing the book about her father. then she got the phone call that her mother was very ill, and like the good daughter that she is, she rushed back to burma.

telling our children that, you know, she probably would be gone for two to three weeks that the most. when she arrived back, it was the turbulent times of the demonstrations, the terrible crackdowns to the students. it was in a hospital where she was with her mother that the injured, the dying -- >> that was a turning point for her that made her go back. >> she was asked to. because of her father, the general, it left her in a legacy. and i think her mother also instilled great virtues, a great sense of duty. >> a mother was also a very powerful figure. in the film, she is depicted as the dutiful wife, but she was strong in her own right. >> she was a strong woman. she's the one who calmed the father down. she was an ambassador to india for a few years. >> and you actually met suu kyi yourself. >> yes. when we were finishing principal

photography in thailand, it was the end of november. in fact, it was a very momentous occasion for us, because we had just finished the shot of the saffron march, where i come on the gate. >> when the monsoor protecting -- >> yes, and i waved to them. that evening on nbc, there were showing them climbing up on the stairs and waving -- that evening on bbc. i had my director, the young son, myself, and others in the movie. as we were watching this, we were so delighted. >> you had no idea with this film, which was years in the making, that she would be released. >> exactly. she was under house arrest. >> what was it like seeing her? what did she say to you about

the fact that you are portraying her? >> when i got into the room, i turned around and she was standing there. all she did was open up her arms, and she gave me the biggest hug to welcome a family. you felt like a family member. we sat down and she said i am sorry because everything is a mess. she brings you right into, you know, a very normal, very maternal, laughing. and she is exactly the way she is. she is very straightforward. she is quite. she is very curious. she asks you questions and nonstop. but it was interesting, we both did not speak about the movie. >> why not? >> i was making a movie about her. >> i suppose she has not seen it. >> she has not seen it, but you have to remember, also the movie is about the love story. for us, as filmmakers, we felt

that it is important to see behind this incredible, an aspiring politician. there is a woman, a mother, a wife. >> who made a very difficult choice is a human being. she turned her back on her husband and her two young sons basically. >> but why should you have to choose between your husband and your family and your country? i believe that this was a choice that they made a long time ago. you know when you love someone, you enable them to be who they truly need to be. >> has that had an effect on you? >> very difficult choices like that. if you are malaysian or chinese origin, in hong kong -- i mean, it is difficult. the choice is completely different. we're very blessed that we never had to face choices like that.

because, you know, if i want to, i am going home tonight to go and see my parents. we have the liberty, the freedom, to say what we want to go where we want. >> not as such an extreme level, but those kind of very difficult choices in life. >> in life, we all have difficult choices. i think we make priorities. because you have to live your life. the people who love you understand that there are certain things that you have to do for yourself to grow and to mature as a human being. i think what she has taught us is the act of selflessness, the nobility of being able to do that in the commitment. >> fine bangladesh, your prime minister has suffered like suu kyi, who lost her father in a very violent way when soldiers turned against them. she lost three brothers. >> she has seen a lot.

in one morning, her father, her mother, three brothers -- the youngest was 10. her sisters and law. in total, 18 members of her family. >> and she lived in exile, too. like yes, for six years she was forced to live in exile. she went back in 1981 and started the movement to bring back democracy. after such enormous sacrifices in the way she inspired everyone, it is unbelievable. >> well, i suppose. the fact of the matter is, there are similarities between her story and suu kyi's. he paid a recent visit to burma. when you're listening to michelle talking about suu kyi, what are your impressions? >> well, these are inspiring leaders, and through their sacrifices. and difficult choices that they have made for their own countries. it is so important.

politics is all about service. we see the people, a country, and when it is difficult choices, not everyone can make it. >> richard, i think you have a bernie's -- a burmese connection. >> my father was actually born in burma. i met michael harris in oxford. i can confirm what michelle said, that he was starkly resigned of his decision, which the two of them have taken. he was bearing it with great fortitude. probably not as great as she herself, because she was actually in prison. nevertheless, it was a hard decision. i admire it. >> when you listen to them talking about these strong asian leaders who are women, what does that make you think about the fact that there are these strong role models in emerging nations?

>> i think it is wonderful that there are strong women who are leading these countries where one would not suspected. i wish you luck in raising the state of the women in such countries. disney -- goodness knows it needs it. >> michele, you have taken strong roles in acting. you have done various movies, including the bond movie. do you enjoy playing these strong roles? >> yes, i do. i do believe that the young girls especially, they need to see that there are and you can be a strong woman. >> you look very delicate. trained as a ballerina. >> you do not have to be butch are masculine. it is not about fighting with the gas. it is about doing the best that you can as a person. i think it is also because, as an asian actor as, you have

seen too many stereotypical roles about how we asian women are always second class, how we are always like the mean boss or the prostitutes in chinatown. if you keep doing those kind of roles, you just to reinforce and endorse that. >> what about stunt? >> there's a difference between fearless and courageous. fearless, you can be stupid. >> have you ever heard yourself? >> so many times. i had knee surgery after the first action sequence. last week, we were reminiscing about that. it was one of the most beautiful movies. at the same time, the most painful memories. and the story of the stunt woman, which was my tribute to the u.n. some heroes, the stunned people. you never see their faces. i had a cracked rib and a severe back and neck injury because i jumped off i think 15 feet and

landed on my head. yes, i have had everything. for your art. >> for your art or your beliefs. i wanted to bring you all in this final thought. one way or another, you have suffered in varied degrees for your beliefs. richard, you get a lot of criticisms about being this aggressive secularism. you do not understand people who have faith. but you stick to your guns. >> i do, but i have never severed physically for it. [laughter] >> but emotionally. >> i do not break my bones, but michelle has literally broken her bones. >> not a wise thing to do. >> and dr. dipu moni? >> i think when we talked about religion, you know, religious people are fighting all the things that the use for killing each other. those are normal products of time. [laughter] >> you have to do something

well. hattie use science. that includes that things like weapons. better not to use them in a bad way. >> religion really wants to be for the good spirit at the end of the day, sometimes it is the interpretation of people that has made it geared towards the dark side. i think whether it is science of politics, we have to learn to live together and work together. at the end of the day, we have the same goal, and that is the most important thing. >> michele, dr. dipu moni, richard, thank you all very much for appearing on "rendezvous." until next time, goodbye. ♪

>> makes sense of international news at bbc.com/news. >> funding for this presentation is made possible by -- the freeman foundation of new york, stowe, vermont, and honolulu newman's own foundation and union bank. ♪ >> at union bank, our relationship managers work hard to understand the industry you operate in. according to nurture new ventures and help provide capital for key strategic decisions. we offer expertise and tailored solutions in a wide range of

industries. what can we do for you? >> "bbc newsnight" was presented by kcet