black enterprise." i'm your host marc lamont hill. on this edition of "our world with black enterprise," we go inside the black church. is the cornerstone of the black community still relevant? that's what's going on in our world starting now. ♪ for centuries many considered

the black church a pillar of spirituality, culture and politics. now, mega churches are redesigning the landscape gaining thousands of followers and collecting millions in tithes with what some are calling a gospel of prosperity. critics argue that the church has lost its true purpose with pastors opposing to trade their closeness with the community for political and sometimes personal influence. but is the church still relevant or is it on life support? here to discuss this is senior minister of united church of christ. dr. deforest, senior pastor of the first baptist church of lincoln gardens. and the chair of african-american studies at princeton university. gentlemen, thank you for being here. there's been so much talk over the last year or two that the black church is dead. you wrote a piece called the

black church is dead. is that true? have we lost our way? has the church lost its purpose. >> we need to understand the church as the institution. the myth of black churches, black churches differentiated landscape. they are human beings, conservative, progressive, in the middle theologically. the idea it has a center of political politics has to be decentered so we can understand exactly what black religious folks are doing. in trying political times, it needs a closer inspection. i was trying to spark conversation. >> he did that. >> i have a slightly different take having been away from the church for a number of years and then returning to the church. i found that the church certainly was not the church of my youth. there were all kinds of models when i returned to the church that i think have responded very well to critiques like the

nationalist movement has raised. i think you have a number of models in the affirm church right now that give me hope. i believe the african-american church is one of the most dynamic institutions in our society, especially with respect to african-american people. >> when you use the term "the black church" you're talking more symbol than you are structure. that term conjures up an historical truth and that is this. at one point in our history, the institution of the church was the most powerful and significant institution in our community. it's where we voted before we had the right to vote. it's where we owned property when we couldn't own property. where we chose our own leaders. and to the professor's point, black churches today generally no longer have the central kind

of influence in america at large or african-american communities in particular that it once had. and i think, therefore, this conversation is critical because in christian theology resurrection follows death. we can't be resurrected if we don't admit that we're dead. >> who is more influential, oprah, jay-z, start going down -- >> right there. >> we begin to talk about the role of the black church or role of black churches in the life of communities, we need to understand african-american communities are dynamic. they are complex. that complexity reflects in very interesting ways the material conditions under which black folks -- >> jay-z is not representative of an institution. barack obama is catching hell today -- >> not an institution. >> not a viable. it's not an institution capable of producing anything.

not producing anything. >> someone argues in the same way that 2004 allowed black churches allowed to deliver votes for president bush, the hip-hop delivered votes to president obama in 2008. >> do black preachers still have the sway they had 50 years ago, 60 years ago. >> some do. part of it has to do with this very complex feel in which black churches exist in. it's not like the only game in town, like used to be back home in mississippi in the '30s and '40s. >> i clearly concede that point. although i would argue that it never was the only game in town. the voice was prominent. i'm sure moms mably was more prominent than some preachers. >> it was dominant -- >> i want to make sure we're not engaged in historical

revisionism. i remember malcolm talking about polls where dick gregory and other entertainers more popular than him. >> popular -- >> went down to birmingham to support dr. king. harry belafonte, the jay-z of his day marched with doctor king. today i'd have to march with jay-z. >> let me pick up with the institutions. one the critiques is it is no longer independent, it's been co-opted. >> in my church new york city politician speaks on sunday morning. there's churches that fling their door open if the mayor is running or governor is running, that he gets center stage. in our church, if they don't stay for the whole service, i won't even call their name. >> we are in a position to independently decide what

political positions we will take, what political arrangements we will have. to me that speaks to the independence of the african-american church. >> everybody speaks to the power of black preachers. >> i'm going to be a cynic for a minute. >> that's why we have the professor on the panel. >> what we have to be very clear about the way many churches function. they don't cultivate a kind of democratic space for every day ordinary folk to engage in the kinds of exchanges for them to make intelligent decisions. >> that's true. >> part of what i want to say is when we talk about -- i think you're right in arguing this is an independent institution with ostensibly its own revenue stream. >> which is important. >> but we need to understand that it exists within an environment that exacts pressure on it. for us to assume that the black church is going to function the same way it functioned in the context of the mid 19th century,

that that's doing to function the same way in the context of the great migration. it's going to function the same way in the context of the civil rights and black power movement and going to function in the same way in the context of capitalism, we're living an illusion. so partly we have to understand how to move this institution to the next phase. >> let's really look at what independent means, you can be independent enfinancially and dependent psychologically and emotionally. and many of us have a greater loyalty to pharaoh than we do to the people we're supposed to be leading away from pharaoh. >> gentlemen, hold that thought. we'll be right back. >> my pastor becomes my vicarious wealth. if my pastor is very wealthy, then one day if i keep ♪ [ slurping ] ♪

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we're back with our conversation on the black church. gentlemen, we have had so much talk in the last two months over the eddie long controversy. for those that don't, if there's anybody in the injuries that doesn't know about this, pastor eddie long is accused of having relationships with male congr s congregants. >> you see the prosperity gospel, when the focus of the pulpit is on bling-bling and driving $350,000 cars and having private jets, then the gospel of jesus and the service ethic and

the spirit of liberation becomes consumed by religious materialism. >> when you say gospel of prosperity we're talking about fundamental measure you can measure spiritual growth by things, god permitted me to drive a bentley. >> if my faith is large enough, it will reflect that. what is so pervasive is my pastor becomes my vicarious wealth. so if my pastor is very wealthy, then one day, if i keep giving him my financial seed -- >> i'll get wealthy, too. >> can you put this in context we've had reverends of prosperity. >> it wasn't mainstream. it was an aberration. >> the interesting thing we can go back and there's a sense in

the account of puritanism, there's a direct relationship between the belief of god's grace and material wealth and gain. it's deeply engrained in the very american fabric of the religious imagination. that's the first thing we need to say. >> about this question around sexuality. there is a sense we need to be very careful not to frame the discussion of sexual desire by aberration. it seems every time we talk about sexuality within the church it's a scandal that precipitates the conversation. when we do that, we, i think in interesting sorts of ways, further handicap how we talk about the fact that god created us in interesting sorts of ways as sexual beings. >> i know you're about to explode in a minute. if we keep talking about -- let me ask, is that a legitimate perspective to have? >> i think it's titillating.

you can't expect the church to have the same ethics or the same approach to these very important moral questions as someone who is in a secular institution. the presupposition is that the church -- if the church would just accept the morals of the society -- no, i'm -- >> everything would be fine. >> what the professor, what i hear him saying is if the only time we talk about sex in any way, ethics, morality, practice, is in response to aberration, deviant behavior, if that's what drives the conversation, then the outcomes are going to be -- >> if we didn't treat this as a tmz story, if it wasn't boys, if it was girls, women, which is happening all the time. >> we wouldn't be having the conversation. >> we wouldn't be having this conversation. part of what i'm trying to suggest here is not about any one compromising their

fundamental faith commitments, i'm not suggesting that. i'm not trying to push my own liberalism onto your particular congregation. >> not at this point. he's going to make that argument in a minute. >> i'm going to have an argument on christian grounds, not on the argument of being secular but on christian grounds we can have a conversation about sexual desire, sexuality that can actually frame how we discuss why folk are repressing and hiding who they are. >> a discussion around theology and christianity that suggests deviant theology is going to result in deviant behavior. >> some of the same people who say gospels of prosperity, god wants me to be rich, that's a deviant philosophy. >> you have to read the bible. that's the arbiter. >> some of the people will point

to leviticus or new testament and said, god doesn't want you to be gay either. how do we adjudicate between these two texts. >> the bible is prescriptive and descriptive. there's time when the prescription around moral living is useful all the time. there's times when the bible describes cultural historical context that has lessons for the future. otherwise you'll lose your mind and not use the bible at all. >> first of all, i'm reluctant to roll up bishop eddie long's personal conflict and crisis with prosperity gospel. >> two separate issues. >> i want to say first of all that i hope there are plaque ministers that can have a genuine interest in young black males. i hope, indeed, his ministry to these young black males has been sincere and produced great truth. >> i think part of the reason

people are combining these things is part of the response by eddie long, at least his church, it was unfamiliar to black folks. when he went on stable, very little. threw the mike like it was coming to america, walks off the thing and 5,000 people or 10,000 jump up in adoration and approval. >> i don't think that's so rare. >> someone arlgd that's kind of a cult personality. >> this is not new. this is not unusual. there have been many ministers, leaders in this country who have had a loyal following who have stood with them, given them the benefit of the doubt. perhaps that's what's happening. >> there isn't that much doubt. >> i don't know. i don't know. i wasn't there. >> what i would hope is that any christian, black, white, green or yellow, not outsource their faith to the authority of someone who is as fallible as they are.

part of what we're talking about here is a vibrant public space where every day ordinary people can think and act intelligently and reasonably and make decisions not driven by markets, charismatic authority but driven by their desire and aim to live a full life. and if you're really preaching the gospel, if you're really standing on what it means for christ to sacrifice for all of us, you need to say none of us are worth it really. >> gentlemen, hold that thought. we're going to take a break, we'll be right back. >> if the most important institution historically in african-american life, he can take a step back such that it can be reimagined for the next generation.

i had pain in my abdomen. it just wouldn't go away. i was spotting, but i had already gone through menopause. these symptoms may be nothing, but they could be warning signs of a gynecologic cancer -- cervical, ovarian, uterine, vaginal, and vulvar cancers are all gynecologic cancers, and each has different warning signs and symptoms. i had to go to the bathroom more often than usual. more urgently, too. feeling bloated for no reason, that's what i remember, and my periods lasted longer and were hvier than what was normal for me. even if i ate just a little bit, i felt full so fast. warning signs are not the same for everyone.

know what's normal for you, and if you think something's wrong, see your doctor. ask about gynecologic cancer. get the facts. get the inside knowledge. call 1-800-cdc-info to learn more. seeing my doctor probably saved my life. basic.? preferred. at meineke i have options on oil changes. and now i get free roadside assistance with preferred or supreme. my money. my choice. my meineke. before we run out of time, i do want to talk a little about solutions. i want to talk about what black churches can do in the immediate time to sort of solve some of the major problems we face. one thing you've done is run a church that is designed to

become debt-free. not the church itself but congregants. you want people off credit addiction, credit cards, mortgages, you have an actual ministry devoted to saving people while they are still on earth. >> in response to this massive consumer culture, in response to historic oppression that we have a choice to resist, in response to our need to create generational wealth that we can pass along. i've made as a centerpiece of my ministry economic empowerment starting on the family level, teaching people about money, helping people budget, helping people invest. making sure people have insurance. these are some of the basic tools that people need to enhance their quality of life, to upgrade their capacity, and to resist those forces that capitalize on ignorance and historic oppression. >> i think people have created

some wonderful models in younger ministers like myself and others have great models in terms of looking at and modeling what they have done. i think that's the greatest proof the church is not dead but alive. >> a last word? you're champing at the bit. >> i just want to disagree on the particulars here. the only thing i want to say is churches have to be reimagined. our faith has to be revitalized and reinvigorated. you can't be -- you can't inherit prophetic energy. you have got to find your feet where you are. this moment, brother marc, requires so much of us, because we're so confuse. so much is needed. and if the most important institution historically is as

confused as the rest of us, it can step back and engage in critical reflection on its practice such that it can be reimagined for the next generation. that's all i'm asking. >> if this dialogue is any indication, plenty of energy, intellect, insight, we can move forward. hopefully it's just on life support. we can reenergize it. >> thank you so much for being ♪ [ slurping ] ♪ ♪ ♪ oh. thank you, baby. mmm. [ male announcer ] mcdonald's new mccafé shakes. with a fresh look and delicious new toppings, they're a brand-new way to indulge. new mccafé shakes. the simple joy of love at first sight.

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gentlemen, we are out of time. thank you so much for this spirited debate. thank you so much. that's a wrap for "our world with black enterprise." don't forget to visit us at blackenterprise.com. i'm marc lamont hill. check me out on facebook or follow me on twitter. thank you for watching "our follow me on twitter. thank you for watching "our world with black enterprise." -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com