>> from robert e. lee in charlottesville to frank l. rizzo in philadelphia. "inside story" starts right now. ♪ good morning, everyone. i'm matt o'donnell. it is sunday, august 20, 2017. this is "inside story." and let's meet our panelists of the week. sharmain matlock-turner, nonprofit executive. good morning, sharmain. >> good morning, matt. >> dom giordano, radio talk-show host. >> good morning, matt. >> ajay raju, attorney. >> good morning, matt. >> good morning, ajay. and ed turzanski, foreign-policy analyst. >> good morning. >> thanks for joining us here. let's talk about this. the statue of former philadelphia mayor frank rizzo was vandalized at least least twice this week. his presence there has become a local flash point in the response to the violence in charlottesville. possibly one of the most colorful, while also controversial, politicians the city has ever seen. rizzo served as police commissioner, as mayor for two

terms, and actually died while he was running for yet another term. he was famously tough on crime and urban blight. but civil-rights leaders have accused his words and actions of venturing into territory that was racist and divisive. that statue we're talking about right now honoring rizzo is placed in front of the municipal services building, which is right in the middle of center city, in 1998. ajay, should it be moved? should it be placed in a new location? should it be put in storage? or should it be left there and that's it? >> i don't know if it should be moved to a different location. let me talk about two things. one -- people have equated moving of statues as erasing history or rewriting history. to me, if that was the concern, that should not be a concern because you have a history channel, you have the internet, you have the history books. history is not being erased. the question is, the statues that we create and bronze and put in public square, are they

of people in whom we see aspirational values as a society? and if we believe that the values that mayor rizzo stood for are consistent and consonant with our values today of inclusivity and other things that america stands for, philadelphia stands for, then he should stay where he is. if he's not, then he should be moved as a relic of history, but not as somebody that we admire and celebrate in public square. >> i would ask, where does this end though? frank rizzo statue is moved, what about fdr? what about someone who, you can justify it historically or not, imprisoned hundreds of thousands of people in internment camps? not that frank rizzo and fdr, matt, are the same guy. but where does it stop? it is never-ending, this week. and i've heard people yesterday talking about the idea that somehow or another, guys like general lee, who i can't defend, and if they remove his statue, i'm fine with that, is similar to hitler. there ought to be an adult conversation about this, and who's gonna decide about frank rizzo? that's what i'd like to start.

>> but i think that there are adult conversations. that's why i think that it's important. i've heard a lot of people talking about it. i've had the chance to talk to people over the last week. i mean, i lived in communities where frank rizzo had people scared to death when he came in with dogs and had dogs that looked very much like what you would see when you see pictures of what was going on in the south. i was here, in the city, when he made statements like, "we need to save philadelphia for white people," and he said to an african-american reporter, "be careful -- your black is showing." i mean, we lived through those kinds of experiences. and a lot of people thought that the statue should not have been placed there in the first place and that it was placed in order to try to say, you know, the things that you went through don't really matter. and so my position is, i think that it should be moved. but i think we should spend the time to talk about it. because i think learning the

history and understanding what really happened during the time during his reign and police brutality and all of those issues are important for us to talk about today. >> would you be okay with it being moved to a different location? >> i mean, i haven't gotten that far. i don't think that i would be that, you know, upset if it was moved to another community. but i do think that when you talk about it, and i like ajay's comment, about being in the public square. we want things that are in the public square to be things that are aspirational, that we're looking up to. i mean, for example, right now the city is building its first african-american statue for a gentleman named octavius catto, who was brutally murdered trying to register african-americans to vote in the city of philadelphia. that'll be the first statue in philadelphia. i think it'll be inspirational to everyone in the city. >> i agree with that, matt. i just want to make a point though. i see the mood in philadelphia though. if you're a conservative, i don't see that ever being aspirational under the current

climate of who's running philadelphia. the catto statue's a tremendous idea, and there ought to be more of that. sadly, there's not. >> i think there's a couple things going on here. ed, you know, jump in. reinterpreting things with our current morality. our morals change over time, and so certain thi-- woodrow wilson would be another example of what you saw over there in princeton. and also, trying to figure out where you draw the line between what is historic and what is a statement. now, some of these statues in the south were placed well after the civil war and are more overt statements of, you know, "hey, this is, you know, how we feel." whereas, in gettysburg, the national park service had to go out and say, "listen, we're not gonna remove the confederate statues here, because that is literally where you go to see, you know, history and what happened there and to honor, you know, that moment in time. >> i think it's very dangerous to look back in history and remove people from the context

of their times and judge them by the sensibilities of the present. it's very problematic to do that. i think we can agree on this much -- vandalizing the statues, or having the mob tear them down, is not a good thing. it's just not. having a discussion within a context where we as a civilized people, under the rule of law, can come together and say, "okay, we'll have elected officials look at this." you may not like the outcome, but at least the process is respectful of the notion that we will have objective standards. and this will be transparent. we'll have the opportunity to discuss a person in full. i'll tell you my earliest recollection of frank rizzo. my parents sitting in the kitchen, very concerned because my dad had to go into a rough neighborhood to work,

and american cities were burning because the black panthers were rioting. and frank rizzo didn't let it happen in philadelphia. i still remember "the inquirer" and "the bulletin" had that photo of the black panthers being stripped, up against the wall. frank rizzo's way of saying, "you're not gonna burn this town." >> right. and all of them found innocent and all of them let go because that was an illegal act. they had not done anything illegal. >> so, look. we can agree to disagree on the tactic, but i am saying that, as we sit here in 2017 and we look with absolute clarity on what happened in the late 1960s, be very careful. >> but i would still argue, ed, that driving fear into communities of color is not the way to be fair. and when you look back on history, that's what people are fighting back against. this is against fear. >> my second recollection of

rizzo was standing in line for his funeral on the parkway. and i just happened to be with a segment of people who were all black. and i just listened as they were telling stories about rizzo. and they said, "he did protect our community." you can disagree with that. i'm just telling you what i experienced directly. >> and i think we all are talking about our own experiences, and that's why it's important to have these kind of conversations, to make sure that there is a process. and that's what i think we're seeing in the city of philadelphia. if we hear the mayor, the mayor says, "it's time for us to have a conversation." i think it's horrible that people are sending hate e-mails or hate messages to councilwoman gym, because she has asked for this. this is a time for us to have a conversation. and whether we agree with everything that everyone believes and whatever your experiences are, finding that

space in the public square is something that i think we're at least setting the tone for. >> well, i would say, with you, i respect you, and it would be a good conversation. the councilwoman and others, this decision is already sealed. they will remove the statue. i don't think there's any doubt about it. it's very clear. we have people, sharmain, talking about taking down his mural in south philly. we have a wilson goode mural. man who was involved in bombing the city. i see this as problematic. >> kenney himself you believe will... >> i believe it's a fait accompli. this is all over but the shouting. philadelphia is sending a message -- this is a new philadelphia. this old philadelphia is pretty much reprehensible and frank rizzo represents that. >> wrap this up, ajay. >> look, i think one consensus we as americans have is that we can survive as a nation without consensus. that pluralist, diverse community where we have so many differences of culture, practices, behavior, and everything else. we have a shared consensus that we can disagree on things, but how we disagree still matters.

so there i echo my brother's comment, right there, ed, that i do agree that i should be a peaceful conversation. but i will say this -- you know, if the lion had a pen, we would be reading tales about the lion, not the hunter. so it also depends on the perspective of the people who wrote the laws and who say what the perspectives are, and for the most part, those of color in our communities, especially those oppressed, have not a chance to voice their opinion, especially those who have been oppressed. and i mean mostly the african-american and latino community. >> i'm sorry, ajay. it has been very difficult to have a peaceful discussion this week, particularly because what happened in charlottesville, along with the political and national response. we've seen people in, for instance, bucks county honoring the victims of what happened. we see the pictures of the white supremacists and the torches. we see the violence between the white supremacists and people that are grouped as "anti-fascists," or you've heard the term "antifa," who went

down there feeling like they were provoked into this whole battle that became what happened in charlottesville. i just learned that, sharmain, that is your hometown. >> that's my hometown. >> charlottesville, virginia. and i'm sure you have a lot to say about your city. but maybe also talk about, where are we as a nation right now? >> well, i wish i had that answer. because i think it is a very difficult time. i've been talking to people all week. i've had a chance to talk to teens, to young adults, and to older people. and there are people who are sad, there are people who are very angry, there are people who are afraid. because they're used to us finding voices at the highest level, including the president of the united states, trying to unify when we have issues in areas where maybe we can't find consensus or we can't agree. we do agree that equality

matters. i still believe that that's a principle in this country. we still believe that people should be treated fairly based on the content of their character and not the color of their skin. and seeing this kind of ongoing hate just continuing to resurrect itself in our country is very, very sad, and is very difficult to watch again. >> with your radio program, dom, what sort of things are you hearing from the voices? >> it's very mixed, if i had to characterize it. they believe ultimately that president trump mangled this badly, particularly the first day, on that saturday attempt. i don't see these people, the two groups, as america. i see these as more outliers, both the antifa, lot of them here in philadelphia, and the nazis. these are relatively small numbers. they want to battle with each other and provoke the rest of us i think into believing there are more of them. i believe there are more people like the young woman, who unfortunately was killed and was

there to speak truth to the nazi element and was not part of all this violence. but these other two, matt, we've identified this week, they constantly are engaged in this kind of stuff. >> ed and ajay, jump in on this. interesting comment i received on facebook by someone named pat conrad. "we are, for some unknown reason, allowing a small group of immature, uninformed, hate-filled people on both sides of the spectrum, to destroy us." >> well, i think especially with the spread of the internet, our facebook pages have become the ghettos of grievance, ghettos of where our hatred is spread. so, yes. but to sharmain's point, at moments like this, when you have extremes trying to rope in, as dom suggested, the rest of us into a fight that we don't want to be part of, then you look at leaders. and i think president trump... in the beginning, my suspicion was he was playing clark kent to david duke's superman. now i'm not sure whether or not they're both the same people or not. and i think that's where he lost the moral high ground of his

position, when he did not immediately denounce the nazis and the white supremacists. he should've done that immediately. 'cause that's not what america stands for. >> i think the tenor of the politics of the time is extraordinarily bad, because... and i agree that social media and the internet have served to exacerbate, or to over-amplify, certain problems. but we've got this kind of politics of identity that has broken the country into a toxic tribalism where you're not so much looking for the things that make us the same or put us in common company, but instead, who's your enemy? and, do you and i have the same enemy? >> right. >> it's a very toxic environment. and we've lost perspective. i do think dom's right about how these very tiny margins are

driving public perceptions. example -- from 2000 to 2016, this is what the fbi and department of homeland security said, there were 46 instances of white-supremacist violence, in which 29 people were killed. that's a 16-year period. i mean, these losers have managed to create the impression that somehow they represent a vast swatch of the country. they don't. and i think the main transgression the president made is when he said that, in that protest, you saw people of good conscience on both sides. no. there may be a disagreement where people of good conscience say, "don't tear down the lee statue," but if you show up at a klan/nazi rally, you're not a person of goodwill.

>> amen. >> you're just not. >> the idea that these rallies are huge amounts of peo-- it's the same people going to the same ones, and the idea that there's irreparable damage being done to our country. simply not true. because there's too few people. i'm sorry. we have to go. we have to go. we'll be right back. >> inside story" is presented by temple university. remarkable change isn't easy, but for those who take charge, it comes naturally. explore temple's impact. visit temple.edu/impact. ♪ we buy any car dot com ♪

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♪ >> we love our props here in "inside story," and i have one right here. this is our topic. gerrymandered in pennsylvania now. take a look at this, as i explain. the supreme court will hear a case this fall that will have justices consider if gerrymandered political maps violate the constitution. many critics are using this... this is the congressional district. it's 7th congressional district in pennsylvania. ...as exhibit 1a. it is famously called "goofy kicking donald duck." this right here is goofy. you see how he's kicking donald duck there, okay? this is real congressional district. i even outlined it myself. critics claim this is very much an example of why republicans in pennsylvania hold 13 of the 18 house seats while democrats way out-favor the gop in voter registration. how does this happen? they say it's gerrymandered congressional districts like this. was it wrong for the republican

legislature and a republican governor to approve a district like this back in 2011, dom? >> it's sadly the spoils of politics. they just have gotten better at it, or with computerization and experts and all that, this is the big prize to do it. so i don't condone it. and i know somebody ran in 7, not pat meehan but somebody else, and i asked him, "where are you calling me from?" and i couldn't believe it. as much as i thought i knew where the 7th congressional district is. yeah. >> there are a million more democrats in the state, registered democrats. forget independents or any other party, right? a million more democrats in the state, and the congressional district is not at least split 50/50? there is something wrong with how the lines are being drawn. and i think the difficulty has been in figuring out, is there an independent way of redrawing the lines? and my understanding is, there's some great mathematicians out there who can figure some of this out. so i'm looking forward to seeing

some kind of independent commission and some mathematicians to get us to the fact that we have representation that represents the registered voters in this state. >> i'm gonna guess that the republican line on this would be, "well, you guys are just trying to find a backdoor into winning elections." democrats are trying to play dirty too. >> no, i'll say that differently. the voting rights act, and the way in which districts were drawn to increase the number of minorities, did something very similar. so the constitution does call for districts of roughly approximate size, right? that's what we should have. but there have been any number of reasons why both sides have decided that they want tortured shapes like that, rorschach tests basically, in determining what the districts are. i actually think that this one

issue is one of the biggest issues why we can't come together as a country. because we have vacuumed up as many voters of each side so that they are in their separate corners, and as a result, if you're an elected official, you had better speak to your constituency and all of their biases. >> the extreme on either side. >> all they worry about is the primary. after that, they're good. they're gonna win the general election. >> that's what i said -- let's bring in the mathematicians, let's try to figure it out. >> well, i think there is some truth to the fact that it's the spoils of war, whoever is the victor. but one way to counter that is to increase voter turnout. there's still enough gap there, in voter turnout, no matter where you are, regardless of gerrymandering, to get your person elected. and those who are sitting on their couch, they're to blame. >> people at home could do something about it. let's take a breath, okay? it's one of those weeks, and there's been a lot of them, where it's been painful to try and, you know, form consensus in this country and believe in the future. neil degrasse tyson, the famous

astrophysicist, is trying to talk to the total-solar-eclipse viewers tomorrow when it happens to watch it, okay? to actually watch it. he advised anyone who wants to take part, to not take your phone and hang it up and be doing the eclipse selfies and all... he says to watch and experience it. "experience this one emotionally, psychologically, and physically. so all the people on this table, the good men and women of this table, do you promise to actually look up into the sky with your own eyes and leave your phones in your pockets? >> no, 'cause i don't want to go blind. [ laughter ] >> ophthalmologists -- is there not an eye doctor to ask? they're jumping off the couch right now, coming for you here. what are you saying? >> people know you got to wear your protective lenses. >> some of them are counterfeit. they were made in china maybe. yeah, seriously. >> i don't know. but i do want to give a shout-out to our own derrick pitts, right here in philadelphia at the franklin institute, who has been doing a terrific job in really getting the city

ready and prepared. he's been writing, he's been calling. so whatever derrick tells me to do, that's what i'm doing. >> but there is a romantic notion that, instead of hiding behind the internet, engage in a conversation. look at a sunset, live the moment. >> don't worry about your retinas. yeah. >> we'll be right back. ♪

>> inside story" is presented by temple university. remarkable change isn't easy, but for those who take charge, it comes naturally. explore temple's impact. visit temple.edu/impact. >> inside stories of the week. we start with sharmain. >> well, i want to end on an optimistic note. last friday, we ended our summer youth employment program, where we had a chance to celebrate young people. and i really want to thank everybody who hired a teen this summer and really gave them a job. and to say -- take one day off, because we got to get ready for next summer. so start thinking about doubling up.

we need you. >> thanks, sharmain. dom. >> my inside story -- taney field. i played ball there growing up. and it's named after this chief justice who was the dred scott decision, slavery-decision guy. movement now that i support to rename it mo'ne davis field. >> thanks, dom. >> i know we have limited time, but just a shout-out to all the folks who work on biotech and pharma and especially penn medicine -- temple, chop, and others. we have great people finding cures for cancer and others. they don't get enough attention. i hope we celebrate them as well. >> thank you, ajay. ed. >> this controversy in the south. we've talked about the civil war. it was precipitated by nullification. the south saying, "we will not accept federal law." the sanctuary-city movement needs to look at this very carefully, because they're playing the same dangerous game. >> ed, ajay, sharmain, dom, thanks for joining us. thanks to you for watching. there's a lot of very difficult issues out there that are difficult to talk about, but we're gonna continue doing it here in this local forum that we have for you every week. thanks for watching. we'll see you next week. i'll see you monday morning on "action news." and watch the total solar eclipse, with the glasses...

>> oh, with the glasses. >> ...and not with your phone. >> with the glasses. ♪ >> i'm nydia han along with gray hall. >> coming up next on "action news." >> the son of former philadelphia mayor frank rizzo speaks out about the vandalism of his father's mural and statue. >> are you disappointed you did not win? we take a look at the growing powerball jackpot after no one got all six numbers last night. biking for a cause in ardmore.

>> those stories, plus the exclusive accuweather seven-day forecast next on "action news." fios is not cable. we're a 100% fiber optic network. and with the new fios gigabit connection... you get our fastest internet ever. with download speeds up to 940 megs - 20 times faster than most people have. switch to fios gigabit connection with tv and phone for $79.99 a month online for the first year.

plus hbo for one year and multi-room dvr service for two years, all with a two-year agreement. and switching has never been easier. get out of you contract with up to a $500 credit to help cover your early termination fee. go to fiosgigabit.com august 20, i'm nydia han along with gray hall. >> here's a look at the stories we're following on "action news." this noon we're learning about what caused a bus to crash on i-78 accepting two dozen people to the hospital. police tell "action news" what led