- nie grnd - should goaah! [breamin they surrounded me like a pack of wolves. and they said go get those crime scene photos of her mama and daddy. i was trying to cover my face. and he was pulling my hands off of my face. and he said, you did this. you. and i said, i did not. >> a sprawling southern family with a pair of church-going grandparents at its heart. >> they were definitely the movingndivua'v fe w no wassuosenlihind and gaar be mre

dot they werlobyry vebet owught w a bimmerdiut >> has blo lfa ameehestepfather d opack. >>vipod her as aaccolice >> vtibl s ha. >> no fierin nona >> oe y w bypici aotpe i ear sayingshe . >> w tble utrip thpart>>nn 'mteholtd iss atele. hereh de.">>po i sh n

lu adue ne to seed thho emp ti w fmland inor co wasou i s gradwned a g adnd created a ly neone. >> u baccrn d dabuthat >>ter:acco ty hmm. he farngnd t rter:amootsere ee oake ed iissst stilst tin f. s l worth dng f becae ithenlthinat sts. r s veve beenke hiseful pi d turned out to beotng

, ble vi i, a fed olrl y ugthug arapa in. weded,nde d bi ya you , ar orr:oue a tr girl uh- epr:utnd hesharofeaven at nder a pa when s 6.moieth a yrs c ibay she'll r foet >>day ed awaone ld ter:o all of sn d lo the two m you >>h- reporte i ldg and icay e was mh losto

a ndandfs d fathbut d shen ntho a res t, til e rned8. fter ber fa, r stepat chvethn the er mostrybodyhi arli bai ca had >>addyun shg, we alwa had fisfrst roathe s e t >>eporter:oual " >> uh-hu >>teha huh? >> always called haddy. rorte c w a deacon. he srted a bllg and , convertinghe old tobar sho s mom diwoeds a searinol wersppy f e w tacon rte's csins

ane. >> iur lal sto fke wne ul aakre u wearm. d s at e fixi th>>te gmo >> faboum. standing >>ngas o ur and t hrts re p. te herr ed oprti. giasrushmaied to h high eert aivced after fent. te e s 24 yan maragand was li as mtr traistwdy th ho . youhogoin? yesorter: twent started ppg iners. tholuh yes >>eporte jusleem down when you could get them?

feel. >> reporter: bambi was a single mom hooked on pills and sitting on a piece of land worth a small fortune. diane decided it was time to intervene before, say, another whirlwind husband du jour got half the property. >> mama said, if you put it in my name, it will be protected. >> reporter: and so she signed the deed to her property over to her mom. and then bambi signed over her heart, sending cody and nathan to be raised by their grandparents. she calls it her lowest point. >> i didn't want to do it, but i knew it was the right thing. she wanted to take care of them. she loved those children. >> reporter: it was a crushing loss, no question, but bambi agreed at the time the boys were better off. they loved diane and charlie. >> they're just very loving. like, did a lot of outdoor stuff. i mean, they spoiled us to death. >> reporter: nathan, how about you? >> they were the most loving individuals i've ever met in my life. my grandma is the most sweet woman. and everybody says so. >> reporter: with the boys

bambi tried to get her own life back on track. that's when she met rick gagnon, a new hire at charlie's glass company. there was an instant attraction. >> i've always liked the bad boy image, you know, i guess. like, he had the goatee and the shaved head. i don't know. we just had a good time together. >> reporter: was it a serious relationship? >> yes, it was. >> reporter: rick was serious too. he confronted bambi about her demons. >> i told her if she wanted to be in a relationship, she had to do something about the pills. >> reporter: by the spring of 2005, bambi felt she had turned the corner. she and rick found a home of their own in myrtle beach. after a long struggle, she was ready to be a mom to her boys again. >> i was getting on my feet. i wanted cody and nate there with us. >> reporter: grandparents charlie and diane agreed, very

move in with bambi and rick. but no sooner had the boys moved then diane was making the case to get them back. >> mama was concerned. hold on to the boys? >> she said that she would like to stay with her. >> reporter: boyfriend rick thought bambi couldn't catch a break with her family. >> everybody pretty much treated bambi like crap. it stemmed from, you know, issues that diane, charlie and baha tehosswe sig to an angrly drama. jusw wer e yserrnr, it happ itas ah, tue rn bambi called her mom. g charlie was late for work. one of his barn employees went up to the house to look for him. moments later he called 911. >> 9>>heay floor. and there's blood everywhere. >> there's blood everywhere? >> yes, ma'am. >> oh, my god. >> reporter: inside, things were

big charlie and diane were dead. and the old farmhouse they loved so well was now a crime scene. >> charlie and diane parker lying dead in their own home. when we come back, the investigation begins. at a grisly crime scene, some small stray drops of blood might just provide a huge clue. >> it appeared that someone involved in the crime was a bleeder. >> so that's great evidence. >> it is, if you can match it up.

oikoipgreetguas5 gr p ro aedar, zeiciaswanro. anze ip zer u mmm nn doesr makeoverta it alf?ery kiroof, oof,stay-proof loo neroge makeuver eraseof ymobbormaup th oneelette need more f than gena in darryl's wife stteusing flis, thr launy smel re amazingn ev. ff) honey, isn'th the's tow (dog) mi su l. re sce plus oxi bnd fre. ur best gain eve lenrafters, can get % off wiurchas frame th 50% o si visiolees,

hu forigge se of the evto iance phasa mberbunot insurae tands the behind . tho havednati have earned ry bserv ret

>>thrrinde fou llnd the opetobut neto adie s founing next tr big che roomor each bshul s. thby tn,eaho rry countysherphompson'sed c t shru he. not iestitee d dire b s.>>reju were s atreerhogo ey wey we, oo tre. >>eporn aterse yre h abt min

shcalledel cie's gss cny workers iai ipeo mapl an s your mama adas . >>epteust y. ani sasodyro inerllshm. anstro t phoneyi.eptebambi ard atheyell cauon pe bckeder way. cere mm s kereint. r rtr mfbai. courd to ndn mewane a i cg on ouerd ybjuind of washoe t th ter:the mo seemethunty had goers iandha

cis kiiny.thsut, mth wsd epstanas l lar.>> there lor epn stn che ane paerdier rivpee ane' shweshutthvi ta ndu d fer orhat? y feel it i i t fr . >> repterobao h thidf tting in yan>> dev wan home it wasbary ty het rit i' loats ppnio orntedo crime scene. >> reporte tan rns for enim ecor esenepy cir ho coun. d fl t ha the first t isk th. istoe ho onur rr: t it? >> fepom. r:gr sce. the roli

m e buraet frodie thwere nly few drlets t ed tsoe e crimothe er wouldm ims g lihad neve the ofhe anit w aiane ed s l.>>orter: skse yo, ur iruisg?eading >> repter:at gat id. in h ortehice ocesd veats tetaki stents. g andiand laly kw a wedevybod st ot we lk txh >> a par iends,es andamy to hete fows ingamd yf

repr:lung>> u memy s egupth toomy f hoto tt r: botri icnt t nit at home.wintew d rd to t far e. bai he rd e'd leerurr e d e des ui deshkeer th'sleme. wdidn'tanetno. dn't vethd i toic s i ams pue lld ntho poled e e sc oked like ole hewove u so wri shet o tcs car ysnd himself toei throu a bldys.wheryo heodt one of thblthgse

icambi fhe inky as, ma .anstin boo to steou t m >> ased dit oore? >> tt. reme sg to std inhesoblinhroo was, y wipg my on . d teo wa shoe sot gebl mom'k. m, m beer b iatseatht, h? >> >>ter: e wld hbi a yeacocong

vend a long ...obile! i'm dwith banxiet even yousts totch up to $650ere. 0? r yup!o swoday

madescra beuse knows that thmost crting g comffood, is wou're sharg it marillende 's time avor. (vo) when the twists and turns of a busy bone... ...meet the bacony yum of beggin', not even mr. squirrel can tear him away. introducing new busy with beggin' twist'd... the new busy bone that makes dogs say... (dog) not now, i'm busy. kellogg's frosted mini-wheats ... 8 layers of wheat... onth s

thle bs ma ruit. > -bloedil bie and ane erad grma peoe in arou cy,ar boing eiing eir wi hau y trha nehbhood ith unwiak-ins n ti ow o ays be aerpldo. r touko w w all er t n r s, kst en shtn me omurd20 s fuatfarmus yen

coecon. t butrulhaaw foent knt waust r:ri sed onhe pckel mostuned i >> iwath had en ato lary >>ter:um tme ss hate wihihesh in >> rht. u sure youaysi >> ikay. i o help you. >> rteooafthe stteam bes dail fe wn hefa i wasani h pen ng there's beeik mid. >> right er lan

huhreys, bambi and diane argu or trrt and toak thathaproptyasthe an banoin b poono t >>epr: iov gir aur, she beyon >> w jbe epteage.>>tee propertyac >>adf angeout ue.>>orte butumphries wn'e on t onetamnder sp- baady so er theaisi obas od>> iuehere th--he wane to go bk to ying li tt? yea unnd ced thems rd for her gthac irst wre ary her and inlyo each >>newa't comfortab wi bambiy of

rte in fa, f mohse murd therauouti match ovboot uthadian 1. e redi o hash callinju aftehad >> i'm s terou >> no. you're not bothering me at >>r: dianela arnt to thr. >>ly doehe s tots t espr dne wt sae felt t daughter. >> sheme. she got in my face and jerked the phone out of my hands when i was calling. >> reporter: and then came this chilling pronouncement. >> it's just -- but if anything happens to me, you'll know that she's the responsible person. >> reporter: how telling is that? . >> she was in fear, in grave fear. >> reporter: humphries by now suspected bambi was somehow involved in her parents' murders. but he was skeptical she could commit a double homicide on her own.

attention to bambi's boyfriend, rick gagnon. >> he was aligned with bambi. he was extremely faithful to bambi. >> reporter: and, according to humphries, willing to do anything for her. you got the daughter and the boyfriend who seem to be in some sort of conspiracy the theory goes? >> well, an agreement to accomplish a goal. >> reporter: the alibi bambi and rick gave detectives, that they were at home during the hours leading up to the murders, was difficult to prove. each gave the other as a witness. >> she said, we were at home. you know, rick was there. i was there. my boys were in the other room. >> reporter: the prosecutor began to wonder, could those mysterious blood droplets at the crime scene be linked to rick and bambi? >> the dna results had not come back. we didn't know whose blood that was. >> reporter: you didn't know who's blood was -- but you knew somebody else was in that house? >> we didn't know. >> reporter: while humphries waited for those results, he obtained a search warrant and took another look at some of rick and bambi's belongings, including their shoes. >> there is blood on his shoe. >> reporter: what did the lab

>> it was big charlie's blood. >> reporter: the prosecutor didn't buy rick's story about having stepped in blood while looking for bambi's mother's car keys. detectives also found what they thought was blood on one of bambi's boots. so now you have two persons of interest, fair to say some >> oh, there's no question. >> reporter: ten days after the murders, humphries asked both rick and bambi to take polygraph tests. both agreed and both showed deception. >> rick gagnon in particular showed deception. >> reporter: police then sat both rick and bambi down in separate rooms for another round of questioning. this time the gloves were off. >> do you want to be charged with something? >> are you charging me with anything? >> answer my question. >> i didn't do anything. >> reporter: they hoped for a confession or at the very least that she'd give up rick. she didn't do either. >> you don't want to be charged? >> no. i'm not going to be charged

>> lock her ass up. >> you aren't going to tell us anything, lock her ass up. put some handcuffs on her. take her to jail. >> charge her with two counts of murder. >> reporter: but the detectives weren't done yet trying to break bambi. on her way to her booking, bambi said the hammer came down hard one more time. >> they surrounded me like a pack of wolves. they said, go get those crime scene photos of her mama and daddy. and i said, no, no, no. and i was trying to cover my face. and he was pulling my hands off of my face. and he said, you did this. you. >> reporter: detectives said the same thing to rick gagnon. >> they arrested me. that's pretty much it. if bambi did it, then i had to ar ioro a ug her bfrnd, partners in love and suspected of murder. the alleged motive was basic.

resolve the custody issue of the boys in one bloody rampage. horry county could sleep easier at night with case closed. but was it case solved? coming up -- a new family feud breaks out between bambi and her sons. >> i had a lot of people in my ear saying that she did it. i hated her. .one. have youn yoden? .it'lllossom lowris on gs tha eastun andicious. lmar

likeer l dre nuelingls a p on evate,and re invit e inle it s. the yogu mad yourk, ilicious.

uh, hello geico?... yeah, i was just tking t your emerncy adde sanit'silableanthen our c overhte.. whathe cnc?can u nd aruck pe? , the tion you're noingobeeve thisutt's ... it ia tr. i wish ias jok mate, but ititerlytuckna tree (carorhonk a chaw? nono, we reallneed isow tck. day night,

bambi bennett sat in a horry county jail cell stunned. she had just been charged with two counts of murder. >> i thought, i'm just having a bad dream. this cannot be happening. not only were my parents just murdered, now i'm being accused of being the one that killed them. i said you all have lost your mind. i said, this doesn't make any sense. i didn't do anything wrong. >> reporter: but to prosecutor fran humphries, it made perfect

>> the motive is unavoidable in this case. bambi needed her stepfather and mother dead so she could get her property back. >> reporter: property valued at north of a million dollars. the classic question that people in your line of work pose is, well, who benefited? >> bambi. >> reporter: as for bambi's boyfriend rick, humphreys believed bambi persuaded him to help her carry out the murderous deed. gagnon is her puppet, the way you see it? he's carrying out her orders? >> i think he's been her puppet from the beginning. >> reporter: what did you think? >> i don't know. i was scared to death. >> reporter: in cahoots with your girlfriend balmby. that's the theory, right? >> yeah. i guess so. >> reporter: but both rick and bambi said the prosecutor had it all wrong. they insisted they would never do anything to harm diane or charlie. and bambi downplayed the family drama over the land, despite calling it a feud during her interrogation. >> she wants the land.

ever. it was given to me by my daddy to begin with. and even though it was in mama's name, if i wanted the land back all i had to do was tell mama that. >> reporter: also absurd, she said, was the allegation she would kill her parents over disagreements about how to raise her boys. >> who does not have disagreements ever with their mother or their father? me and mama didn't always agree on the upbringing of cody and nate. but that doesn't mean i'm going to kill my mama because we don't agree. that is ridiculous. >> reporter: but by now even some of bambi's family believed she was responsible for her parents' murders. including bambi's own sons nathan and cody. you lost your grandparents in the most awful fashion. and then your mom is swept away from your life within minutes. >> it's just crazy. like, you don't know who to turn to. >> reporter: when did you come to the idea that maybe she was the one that did this? >> it was a mixture of things, like i had a lot of people in my

was that she basically, like, put it in rick's head for rick to do it. >> i only thought she had what i had been told. i hated her. ever again. >> reporter: it seemed bambi's supporters were few and far between. but one who did believe in her innocence was her attorney jim irvin. >> everybody rushed to judgment in this case. >> reporter: the way jim irvin saw it, the prosecution's case against bambi was a weak circumstantial one that hinged on a bunch of theories as to motive. >> what always bothered me about this case, when you look at the gunpowder residue, there was none on bambi. >> reporter: he said that one bit of hard evidence detectives thought they had against bambi, what they thought was blood on her boot turned out to be nothing. >> the detective said, we got her. the dna on this boot's going to belong to one of the two people. they couldn't even say it was

>> reporter: as for the polygraph test detectives said bambi failed to pass, according to irvin, those results were suspicious. >> the last question they asked her, have you told me everything you know about this case? if i asked a detective that same question, he couldn't pass it either. it's too broad a question. >> reporter: bambi sat in jail for six months. >> they were hoping she'd flip and tell them the story. >> that's exactly what they were hoping. >> reporter: finally the judge said enough is enough. prosecutor humphries had to let bambi go. >> it became apparent the evidence was not sufficient to bring her case to trial. >> reporter: didn't have the goods? >> just wasn't there. wasn't there. >> reporter: and yet she's the foundation of your theory? >> there's no question about it. bambi was able to put horry county jail in her rear view mirror. and with it rick. by now bambi had cut ties with her old boyfriend. sounds like she had your back, rick, and then she didn't? >> reporter: what had happened? >> jail changed people, you

would just be a matter of time before he too would be released. the forensics they had against you. no hair. no fingerprint, no dna. >> nothing. >> reporter: but he did have charlie's blood on his shoe. to humphries, that evidence was part of a bloody trail from the crime scene that was about to lead both the prosecutor and rick gagnon into a courtroom showdown. coming up -- one of rick gagnon's fellow inmates comes forward with a damning story. >> he's been given a fairly detailed account of what occurred that evening and what the crime scene looked like. >> stuff that hadn't been in the newspapers?

rry inor an amg 2 fodeale mc's tyou lo. bada bas... thw no r li coln. save 50 oyd apparel for him and for her... and 40% for the kids. save on sonoma for plus get kohl's cash. kohl's. i asthm..ne ony piein my fe. wn mysthma sytoms kepcoming on my long-term corol meci, lked t doctoan fod a missinece in masthatme. ailyo even asthm breo is for adults with astnot wetroldon aong-tehma l cine ken incortroid br w't repla a r inler r ddenathing problems. opep airw hel e bring fohour

n incorticroid onceasthwellroll octor ll dec you op bd prese a ent as conmedi lin incortroid ot takeo man escrib e your dtor if yasthma ot iro or orse. k your dif 24-ur bre be ang pceor yo eef you're eligiblfor ontheet br. u ca prentlind in undisheildren aover torld en youetour vitamins atalgree, u he ge linginvitamins toacro glo. t vins here. ch liveswher lgret thcoer oppy health

and zesty chilies, you goa eso ood... 'll em ay. man, tt'good velveeta aotel. there a dangerousinin thalis wiin you. yoli cha and in tim, d th. d yo rush

> gag n. ck u t r charges. rees wanher gu j wageer around . wpo ap>>oryadywanans, a edtr ten 'suble did k to a ca s llu?>>h,llim l me ror bheit see evn pofth ted kno ouse i

tate rtrck g chardi. s fben o is me ce for ricn thofhewoe. te amps ll tas was otatiostro, eak. noan ap liloa oe d . h te t e rderne but dn he? d w bu h atorybot. umphries 'sersibloo sheonr hor me time im

i, pacou mi in e ndow freaalgain >> he we in d roe omse ind. aops, i epinod atryho yeah.te'told o,au os or t c s pho prec, n hours fo rsu ste insihat ho notiatoom re draw iehackouldnot ha cinds bee they weraladut s dendwa rk hethourds othe. e ss rt

thativ fairl accou bgnwhatccurred e atherimece loo ephed, lltoel b ne gnon had mtioned acn thgs. the only ha thma iomeo whonmertip in e. ter: ahee osor tried tspn innvenie fin for the mysterd drfo turder test the tc an al at, id ptuly spomus -thichad an .mpliednc was outh aw y wied hhe e agnst 's o friendat autam i an, e waeieds m. o. thit's a tvesty. r: hrphi

>>epst aid his in heole ts a abt benn who'dipul r boyfriri g domuers rtwo. t back thed, get her mo herac >>e d aram owher pantwe n theyo, rrpl n va me. >>or t tngs rgueor the l boyfand his ghhaer t houand dbas heiglo. ryd am thro dripping with family greed and hatred. now it was time for an entirely different story. >> none of the puzzle pieces fit. >> reporter: rick's defense team, including attorney barbara pratt, told the court that the state's case was heavy on fiction, light on facts. they had a puzzle, they had neat little pieces, but the pieces

>> reporter: the state was so desperate to prove its case, she said, it clung to the word of a jailhouse snitch and career criminal. >> a fellow that is there to cut himself a deal and get himself some assistance, i guess, in his own case, is not likely to be credible. >> reporter: not only was the snitch not to be believed, the defense told the jurors, but the state was also trying to confuse them about the mystery blood found at the crime scene. the bottom line, said pratt, the dna from that blood cleared their client of the murders. >> the dna didn't match, and we knew the dna was not going to match rick. >> reporter: and they knew that, she said, because rick had an alibi for the night of the murders -- he'd been asleep in myrtle beach with bambi. the way pratt saw it, the most challenging part of the case was the blood on rick's shoe. to explain how it got there, rick took the stand. he pointed out that on the morning the bodies were discovered police had examined him thoroughly and found nothing. >> if there was blood on my shoes that morning, i'd have been arrested right then and there.

that morning. >> reporter: that came later, he said, when he stepped into the blood-soaked bathroom. despite that police photo, he insisted the window blinds were open. and he'd worried simply that bambi might see the horror inside. >> i went in and shut the blind. i didn't think she needed to see that. >> reporter: he testified the blood got on his shoe at that moment, not before. did you go into the house and kill big charlie and diane at the instigation of bambi? >> absolutely not. >> reporter: were you two in a conspiracy to kill those people? >> no, sir. >> reporter: so who did kill the couple? we don't know, said the defense, but it wasn't rick gagnon. with that, the jurors filed out to deliberate. rick waited with his attorneys. and the woman many felt to be at the heart of it all held her breath. coming up -- the jury renders its verdict. >> i didn't know what to think. i didn't know what to think

>> but this isn't the end of a case because finally investigators learn who left those mystery blood drops at the crime scene. >> he said they identified the killer. now lenraers, can ge50% off es wiurchasof frame th's 50% o si visioes, -linfocals and rescion su

they'rper concentrated.so i g a betean. ted roduthe ye it'got toe cl it'st to b. bl gums? yothin's a rof usng td. it n. it sign ly seas lierine(r)elp rse...

neacvit thsi pots.ciodornetivit fusion jurors in rick gagnon's murder case deliberated for only a few hours. when they filed back into the

and knew. they'd found him guilty. >> two counts of murder. received two life sentences. >> reporter: that's called a pine box sentence. >> pretty much. >> reporter: you're going to get out of the system in a pine box when you're dead. >> yeah. >> reporter: bambi bennett said she didn't want to be in court for the verdict. her attorney, jim irvin, called her with the news. >> here i am thinking, oh, my gosh, could he have done this? and then i'm going in the back of my head, there's no way he could have did this. >> reporter: rick felt as though he'd been sandbagged. >> i believed that if god saw fit to have me go home, i would go home. >> reporter: and that, thought rick, was about all he had left, faith in god and a good appellate lawyer. in this case, bob dudek. >> in my 22 or 23 years of being an appellate defense attorney,

about two or possibly three people that i genuinely believed was innocent. >> reporter: that certainty would mean exactly nothing to an appeals judge, unless bob and rick could come up with new evidence. then in 2009, a year after his verdict, rick had an encounter in prison with yet another inmate. >> and it was all like excited about something. >> reporter: authorities in tennessee, the prisoner told rick, had just arrested someone for a home invasion there. >> he told me, he said, they identified the killer. >> reporter: that man's name was bruce hill. when tennessee authorities ran his dna through the database, they had a match to the mystery blood found at the parker crime scene. in 2011, a jury convicted hill of the murders of big charlie and diane. his motive for the crime was never firmly established.

did you know that name? >> no. >> reporter: did you ever see him at the farm property on job sites? >> no, never. >> reporter:ut rick's lawyer need proof that there was no connection between the two men, so he paid hill a sit. >> bruce hill's shown a picture of rick gagnon and his words ye seeat crac] be. oud s diowon on. orr:lll d w waadat urmigoe. hi gain, w lue. t wae rst e good new l u ow was to sgo g >> rheer de yes, r. namy,ival a n iat >> and i was in the chapel a e me. wy jo.d heasuge ch

enedck sd 'd guyil- muinheer teie e thaith m sh s hd oume iean, anew t eame e ow. r:t mu hed off at on >> ep nhis story had t pejus io >> t jud th t r truld beiffe. ns itan geth rig rteudge vacckonvictiog coicore who d reacum ul-farge wanted thci so20, afte

edthe carooast ri witen >>thsmof u kn e frble thinatowwe tisor someini haed my li teldlfend beevife was mbi saysheuts most of e ople she gup e tohe still ttmuch hery coo it wanto behe ymorthatas mho t e inown st falsely accusedye dtroyed mepor b tro rry unty, south doouant an woulthor you? dwaoly. itsn't

thoo >>heikinlogyu e e au>>eaetti shtlth anpo orr: pe oufohe juic >> r meahe wlded h charged, ie cote a wouldave ked to aagt ofst r: a ben ingeti are i'anan eling frome hatihe m to b h i ion anhingh . repora t that c joom in ace she nohome, the rsn e, lfa. k fore yoo tr y a lyell he anggerndean er rr: you canheso agaiight.orr:t le g r thfu, e'

s ba l mom a dadmyldrelogranar r llasans. thhease isole im nng, we ule in re t repteayheo re kp g as lvet rootedht iand let e an .>>at fors n "da wel e t a sp, 9:00

r l us ats, ght. > tratorstormearcentergh a succesulr th ke will abt ion stigea gailon >>haupamtot 4 min. toat, yohaite thmakeba261ghma numberis.