>> this is "the chris matthews show." [captioning made possible by nbc universal] >> rising to the occasion, president obama took back the reins of the splintered health care fight. will it last? is he fears enough to get the sweeping change and we know more about the details now but which details will actually become law? what will change in your own assistance today we lay it out.

and finally, why so much hate? that congressman who yelled "liar." the fears that the president wanted to indoctrinate school ds. was all this unavoidable? hi, i'm norah o'donnell sitting in for chris. welcome to the show. ceci connolly, joe klein, helene cooper covers "the new york times" and howard fineman, from "newsweek." president obama stealing the scene in the health care debate. his wednesday night speech to congress showed the president knew he needed to take become control. >> the time for games has pass is! now is the season for action. now is when we must bring the best ideas of both parties together and show the american people that we can still do what we were sent here to do. now is the time to deliver on

health care. norah: polls taken since then showed that the president did have some success and of course there was that outburst from congress joe wilson, the guy who yelled "you lied." other republicans were more polite, but still -- listen to what rush bill -- limbaugh said. >> that speech last night was a fraud. it was dishonest. it demeaned theoffs of the -- office of the presidency. having attacked and lied throughout this thing he claims he wants to work with republicans, with whom he has not met since prim. norah: you can always count on rush. how's the president doing with his own party? >> i think rush was kind of right. i don't think the republicans are now in the equation. i thought the president was broader and more focused. he was saying we have to regulate the health care business and we have to try to

cover everybody and everybody to contribute and it's not going to be that much different from what you already know. in that way it wasn't the change you can believe in. norah: ceci, you've been reporting the president is personally lobbying members of congress, right? >> right, i sort of think of him these days as the lobbyist in chief. because what he recognizes is that as much as that speech wednesday night as well as his big rally in minnesota over the weekend were all about getting the public behind this, because he had kind of lost them in august, call -- equally important is the inside gafmente he's taking a page from l.b.j. and he's doing it one-on-one, very personally, phone calls. visits to the white house. norah: what about max balk us?

is her -- buacus. is he going to yield? >> i don't think max is going to be given much choice. he's been given a great deal of room, months to come up with a bipartisan deal and it hasn't happened. norah: joe, one of the things the president made very clear -- he claimed this is not going to add one dime to our deficit. has he explained how that is? >> read my lips. i think it's a problem and i think that the source of revenue that they've located -- this tax on high priced insurance policies is inelegant and ridiculous. it's going to trickle down to other policy holders. i thought the president's first idea, which was a limitation the deductions that rich people can take was a really good idea. norah: then how do you sell it? >> you can never prove something is going to be

deficit neutral. norah: helene, do they feel the president took control? >> the people at the white house were pretty pleased. for them it was more about unifying the base, the democrats. as howard said they've pretty much given up on the republicans. they'll say it's bipartisan because it has elements of the republicans' idea in it. on certain levels, like malpractice, for instance, they've made a few bows to republican concerns, but it was much more for the white house to make sure he's got the democrats -- >> lightly sprinkled with republicans. >> nosha -- norah: wasn't part of it that the president needed to take back that mantle as the leader? >> i think he's trying to be operationaly bold while at the same time trying to reassure to everybody you're not going to

lose your insurance if you have it. what we're trying to do is regulate an industry that has never been regulated at the federal evil -- level. it's a change message and a reassuring one at the same time. norah: there are some people who are scared about what's going on. people being scared is being fueled by this fear mongering. did joe wilson's outburst help or hurt the white house? >> i think the white house was thrilled with that. did you see nancy pelosi? that's one of those cases where they can stand back and let the republicans hurt themselves. you disagree. >> my first reaction was -- and the voice of the cuckoo is heard in the land but over the succeeding days it has become a real debate about wlornt you're going to insert in the bill a

provision about whether or not people are going to have to show their sizzship. that is an absurd idea. it's crazy. norah: could that make it in the bill, that they're so worried about it's looking like they're giving health care to illegal immigrants that they could write in this cannot be used for abortions? >> it could well be. because what the white house wants more than anything is passing a health care bill. if it means writing in language like that i think they'll be open to it. i think this issue orldo coverage for immigrants -- this speaks to how undocument -- undocumented health care is. the fact that $1 in every $5 spent in this country today goes to health care. >> if they're going to get

so-called blue dogs, they can say, we're addressing that, if you will. >> news flash, we're paying for the health care of illegal immigrants right now. if someone gets their hand chopped off in a meat packing plants and they go to the hospital we're going to treat th. we do it now. norah: if you had to point to the top three big things that are going to be in this bill, what are they? >> if there's a bill i would definitely take the page from howard. there is great support for the idea of insurance market reforms. finally saying you can't deny people coverage based on preexisting conditions, there shouldn't be caps on the insurance you get, that sort of thing. the reason it gets tricky is that the insurance industry only wants to go along with that if they get all these 46 million or so new customers. a couple of other things people should expect is something called an individual mandate, a requirement that every person

in america carry health insurance. norah: just like car insurance. >> exactly, with some kind of discounts or tax credits for people who have trouble affording it. he's always -- also talking now about some tax credits for small businesses. those are some of the big things right now. >> there are three big things. two big mandates -- insurance companies he to cover everybody, everybody has to buy in. the third big thing are these exchanges, kind of like health insurance superstores, which is going to make it a lot easier for individuals to buy into comparable plans and it's going to be great for small businesses. >> and the insurance companies will sabotage that if it includes the public option. >> it's not going to be there. norah: as for a bottom line, we asked the matthews meter, has the president got command back

in this debate? the answer? it's unanimous. 12-0. howard and joe, you're in that group. >> i thought it was the president's speech. i thought it was one of his best quiningses of practicalty and focus with a little bit of philosophy at the end about the role of government, which i was -- i thought was useful. it was one of the best simple explanations he's used. norah: is he going to be able to keep this new control through the fall? >> we shift back into the messy business of slating and we're already hearing about additional delays on capitol hill. it's not going to be easy. one of the things most powerful about that speech was he spoke to main street in a way that this conversation had gotten away from. >> i think that one of the things the white house may have learned in august is that it's better to have him out there, even if he's being accused of

overexposure than to not have him out there so you can watch all the crazies screaming about it. you're going to have the big screaming this week about the financial meltdown. norah: are they feeling that way in the white house, their mojo is back? >> they do but we -- he always does well when he steps up to the plate. he was getting a lot of complaints about being too distant and removed. >> they looked at what had gone wrong in the summer and dealt with it, which shows they can learn. norah: before we break, the president's big hurricane speechddeyan m of many of esent clintos address on the same topic 16 years ago this month. once clinton made his sales pitch it was time for "saturday night live" to weighing in. here's the immortal phil hartman. >> this past wednesday night i

laid out the basics of a health care plan that would guarantee every american a comprehensive package of medical coverage. if you are a citizen of the united states, you cannot be turned down. if you have a prolapsed colon, you qualify. we simply must draw the line somewhere. we cannot pay for everything. for example, cooties are covered but not the heeby jeebies. cabin fever, covered. loto fever, not covered. full lights covered but butterfingers not covered. breast augmentation? covered. [applause] >> breast reduction, not covered. norah: all right, when we come back, that congressman who yelled "liar." and here's conan o'brien's

take. >> republican congressman's joe wilson has apologized for calling president obama a liar during his speech on health care. obama accepted his apology then invited him to appear before a death panel. norah: so why all the hatred? was it unavoidable for this groundbreaking president or did he make some mistakes to give permission slips to the haters? plus, scoops and predictions right out of the notebooks of these top reporters. be right back.

norah: welcome back. the summer was rife with craziness in those town halls but september has been just as nutty. there was the uproar of the --

over the president's speech to school kids with the critics warning kids. then there was the congressman who called the president a liar during his speech. what is causing the anti-obama outrage? is this something different from what other presidents have feased. we put it to the matthews meter. is the anti-obama venom esultidable or partly a of his own mistakes? six say it was unavoidable but six say he partly brought it on himself. howard? what's the president done wrong? >> i think it relates to what helene was saying. he hasn't always spoken to main street. in his situation, the change agent that he is, he needs to be ever-aware, maybe unfairly so but ever aware of reassuring people on the right side of the street on main street.

norah: joe, you say the craziness and anti-obama hating was unavoidable. >> i was at some town meetings, most recently in arkansas. this is an awful lot about race. you can't avoid it. he was born black. it's not only that, it's about the fact that in middle america among white people, especially working class white people, they're seeing all this stuff. they're seeing latinos in arkansas, quite a few of them, move into the neighborhoods. they're seeing south asians running a lot of businesses. they're seeing enter marriage, all these things that they find threatening and they believe that the america they knew, which was always kind of a myth, is disappearing. norah: why is this being voiced now? >> because they're being egged on by demigods in the republican party, by boss rush limbaugh. i call him boss because there

isn't a republican official who's willing to call him out. norah: there are people who have always hated former presidents. why is it about race? >> on one side you have a lot of whites, particularly in the south, who are just angry at the idea that there's a black president. we've had several stories in the times recently about some of the numbers the president got in south carolina, in arkansas, the number of whites who voted for him -- the very low number and they're angry. and then you tough flip side. a lot of blacks love obama and are emotionally attached to him because he's black. i think that plays off each other. >> i think this white house -- and again, maybe unfairly, needs to constantly be sensitive to those fears that joe was talking about. it could paralyze his presidency if he does it too

much but i don't think after -- at every moment they're very aware of it the way they were during the campaign. i think during the campaign they were very aware of it. once they got to washington, they started getting away from it. the other factor "big government." he had to act like a liberal at the beginning and that reinforced a lot of fears. >> i think going back to the beginning of the republic we've always had a certain cranky section who has complained. they haven't had the internet or tell vacation to air those views. >> usually you had a legitimate leader to have party who would shout those haters down. norah: is someone pouring gasoline -- >> i think absolutely, but beyond, that remember a few weeks ago when these polls came out that showed that president

obama's aremoval ratings were going down at the same time that people believed that we were not out of the economic recession but that things were starting to turn around? think about where we were in january and now economists are starting to talk about the fact that we may at some point soon be coming out of it. it's not looking as dark and yet you have approval ratings plummeting. >> i agree that over time there have been hair raising things said about pts, whether it was thomas jefferson or lincoln on or franklin roosevelt or whatever. the difference here is race. it was visitry althen. norah: scoops and pdictions right out of the

norah: welcome back. as chris would say, tell me something i don't know. >> even as this coming week, senator baucus, the chairman of the finance committee is saying he'll be coming o with a

health care bill, the balance of power is beginning to shift in the senate and on capitol hill and it's shifting to a group of centrist democrats in the senate and they have specific concerns about health care, the cost and they're going to start really weighing in on this. norah: joe? >> in afghanistan the bad news isn't just the widespread fraud in the election but that the nature of the fight has changed. the taliban are standing up and finding set piece battles. there was a nine-hour firefight the other day i'm told by military sources, which means that the taliban are we'll organized, we'll disciplined and very, very we'll armed. norah: lean? >> still on the afghanistan front. the afghanistan war has now passed vietnam as the longest war this country has ever been in and i think it's going to be going on for a few more years. >> there's been talk that justice john paul stevens may retire.

i'm told by former clerks of his that by next spring he'll announce he's leaving which means barack obama will have research to do about somebody else to appoint. norah: when we come back, new doubts among democrats about doubling down in afghanistan. so will obama get more troops if he asks for them?

norah: now the big question of the week, will president obama get more u.s. troops in afghanistan if he asks for them? >> hard to say but i think that this issue speaks to a brooder challenge for president obama and that is keeping his liberal base happy. you hear it from gay rights groups, you hear it with respect to health care as we've been discussing and they have real concerns about the level of engagement. >> from what i understand it's an open question is -- astou whether he is going to ask for them. the answer to that question is in kabul, not in washington. >> i think he will get the numbers but i think he'll get them from republicans, not nestle from his base. the white house has pretty much resigned themselveses to the

fact that on afghanistan policy most of their support is coming from the republican party. >> i agree with evebody. he's going to minimize his requests and he may not get it because he's trading health care for afghanistan. norah: thanks to a great round table. that's the show. thanks for watching. chris will be bac