this sunday, the countdown to november 2, electioday. the president is on the trail trying to protect home turf, stumping for his old senate seat. >> you can trust him, you can count him. >> as the gop threatens to change the balance in washington, the fight for the illinois senate seat is still too close to call. we kick off our election year senate debate series, with a showdown between the democrat and the republican. the big issues -- jobs, spending and taxes.

and the credibility issue dogging both candidates, making this an intensely negative campaign. thenur political roundtable, on the bigger picture. then our political roundtable on the bigger picture, how new jobless numbers affect the campaign, whether democrats c make the eleion a closer contest than most expected. and another high-level departure from the white house. with us "time" magazine comnist joe klein and "the wall street journal's" peggy comnist joe klein and "the wall street journal's" peggy noonin. captions paid for by nbc-universal television good morning. president obama and vice president biden heads to ph philadelphia to try to rally democrats to turn out for pennsylvania senate candidate joe sestak. here in washington, this morning, it's all eyes on the tight battle in illinois.

>> hello, chicago! it's good to be home. >> the fight is personal for the president. >> very tough circumstances, in a tough, political battle. he has not waivered. that's the kind of person you want. that's the kind of person that you know when the going gets tough in washington, we'l be fighting for you. >> democratic state treasurer alexi giannoulias, neck and neck with congresan mark kirk, battling for perhaps the most famous senate seat up for grabs in this mid-term race, president obama's former seat. for the gop, it's the ultimate prize. >> if democrats hold the majority, it will be because they held the president's nate seat. if they lose the majority, it means one of the seats they lost is the president's senate seat. that the ultimate repudiation

if you're a former illinois senator now sitting in the oval office. >> also a race that is marred by scandal from the start. when president obama left one end of pennsylvania avenue for the other, then governor rod blagojevich ignored objections from democratic leaders and appointed a former state attorney general, roland burris to he seat, blagojevich was later arreed, charged with trying to sell the president's old senate seat. the campaign began and the scandals ensued. kirk, a naval reserve has erroneous or exaggerated claims on his record. and giannoulias, a 44-year-old former basketball star who played professionally in greece has been plagued with his family's troubled bank and whether giannoulias, at the tme a senior loan officer at the bank, was aware of $20 million

in loans to a pair of chicago criminals. >> if all you're looking at is the negative side, you have a choice between a serial embellisher and a mob banker. >> how will illinois voters decide and what will the outcome say abouthis mid-term campgn? >> joining me now, republican congressman mark kirk and illinois state treasurer democrat alexi giannoulias. welcome, both of you, to our studio and to this debate, "meet the press" style. we'll sit around the table,ave a discussion and go through the issues. there's a lot to get to. so let's get to it. the shadow of president obama hangs over thisace because it was, indeed, his senate seat that you are now vying for. in 2008 in chicago whe the president and his family appeared and he was then the president-elect, this is what he said. >> it's been a long time coming, but tonight because of what we

did on this stage, in this election, at this defining moment, change has come to america. >> mr. giannoulias, let's start with you. how would you define t change that has come to america under president barack obama? >> i think it's important to put things in context. if you look at the mess that he inherited and the enormous challenges that he inherited, a trillion dollar deicit, increasing job losses, i think he has done everything he can to help turn this economy around. the question is going forward, what more can we do? we focused our campaign on creating private sector jobs, we talked about infrastructure and moving forward with the next generation of clean energy jobs, tax breaks to small businesses, job creation, tax credit for small business, payroll tax holiday for low to moderate inme workers, doing everything we can to get that $1.5 trillion, encouraging and promoting -- >> the country is better off in this economic recession because of the change that president obama ought? >> i think if you look at what

would have happened if some of the measures weren't taken -- again, they weren't perfe. for example, when you look at t.a.r.p., the bailout to the biggest banks, that congressman kirvoted for, i would like to have seen, as a former community banker, more oversight, more accountability that these banks lend money to help increase to capital. something we'veone in the state treasurer's office. >> you and the senator rallied back in march, gop rally, about the president, we are on the way to making this guy a one-termer. how do you answer that question? how do you define the change he has brought to america? >> tremendous amount of bt. i have a chart here that shows our debt to gdp ratio. while we did run deficits in the past, we now number our debt in trillions rather than in bilions. and i think that represents a long-term danger, especially to the american dream. everymerican born today owes $43,000 to the federal government the day he or she is

born. and we are transferring a tremendous amount of debt to the new generation. much of it owed to overseas creditors, who expect to be repaid by our children with interest. >> as a republican, member of coress, do you really want to stand by your party's recrd on the debt, going back since you came to congress? >> no. i've become very much a fiscal hawk here, earmarks for my own congressional district, we could save $66 billion right there. the kirk amendment passed in the house that attacked the bridge to nowhere, even though it was in a republican district,the chairman of the house transportation committee and now it's actually the bridgesto nowhere, will not be built. >> i want to come back to the debt in a minute. i want to talk about jobs, on the minds of every american, 9.9% unemoyment. look at this chart, a tale of woe in this country. go back to august 2009. since that point, unemployment has been at 9.5% or higher. at's 14 straht months.

congressman kirk, i'll start with you. what do you do at this point? >> as the federal government, to spurt job creation? >> what happens when the borrowed money runs out? secondly, this congress has been very, very viciously anti-business, new taxes, new regulations. we need senars and congressmen that will back pro-growth agenda. my small business bill of rights, ten new policies to help out the number one employers in illois and the united states, small business. half of al the jobs, 80% of the job losses in the great recession. they can't afford a washington lobbyist to go find stilus money or a washington lawyer to wade through the latest 1,000-page bill that congressional leaders haven't even re. tax relief, tax cuts is the job creation? >> we don't pass legislation to take away your right to a secret ballot in a union election. my opponent wants to take that right away called the car check

bill. >> how do you answer the question to job creation? >> one of the problems is we have typical washington, d.c. politicians who have forgotten what it's like on main street. i'm the only candidate in this race who has worked in e private sector. congressn kirk has been in washington, d.c. for 20 years. if you're thrilled with out-of-control spending, out-of-control borrowing that has become the washington way, congressman kirk is your man. >> my question is, what do you do to create private secto jobs to put people back towork. what you've just said doesn't put people back to work. that's what people are wodering. >> the biggest problems i hea from my frieds in the business community is that there's no lending, tough to get a loan. if you have a line of credit, one of the first things we need to do is increase liquidity and aess to capital and that the trillions sitting on the

sideli sidelinein the banking system, we need to do everything we can to focus on that. we need to focus on green jobs, solar,wind, geothermal. other countries like china are getting ahead of the curve. >> the government did do a lot with the stimulus, right? you tually said the stimulus was not big enough and you' lead a progressive caucus if you're the senator from illinois, you've said. will you push congress, if enacted, to pass more stimulus? >> if it means more tax cuts to small businesses, if it means middle-class tax cuts, i'm for it. we also have to keep in mind what the recovery act really did. a third of it was tax cuts to middle-class families, a third of itas emergency funding to states and municipal iities, something i've seen as state treasurer. >> do you acknowledge it hasn't done the trick? 14 months of unemployment. 9.5% for 14 straight months unemployment. >> the bigger question is what would have happened -- it wasn't flawlessly done. if you take a look at what would

have happened -- do we need t see a stop sign down the street to avoid it? >> letme have you engage on the big tax debate. do you think the bush-era tax cuts should be extended for all americans? >> cnn just did a survey of economists saying that they should not have a new big tax increase on december 31st. look what congressional leers want to do. they want to hit the u.s. economyith a $900 billiontax increase on december 31st. on top of the ten new taxes that were in the health car bill, on top of the taxes in fincial regulation bill, on top of the x that is were in the august congressional legislation. i don't think -- the key danger here is will our policies increase the chance of a dole-dip recession? if you look at the job numbers just last week, we have a significant danger of that. and taking mormoney out of the private economy and having the government perform as it has

poorly done with the stimulus, i don't think, is the right way to go. >> you said just a moment ago, if i heard you right, you are a deficit hawk, fiscal hawk. back in 2004, you were part of this republican main street partnership. and as part of that group, you had a press release on 2004 -- i'm going to put some of it up on the screen. today the republican main stret partnership elected moderate republicans in the nation offered six principles for the '05 budget resolution designed to put congress on a path toward a balanc budget. these principles stand for key value that once we adopt the budget we must have the tools to stick to it, said congrsman mark kirk. here is a key part to that. tax cuts should only be extended temporarily and limited to those that are due to expire in 2004. key point. we simply can't afford permanent and across the board extensions at this time. that's what you said then. >> right. >> when the debt was about one-third of what it wastoday. congressman, how can we afford to make permanent tax extensions

now, bush tax cuts in this economy? >> especially in this climate, we have congressional leaders who are not interested in spending restraint at all. i back spending straint across the board. at the d.o.d. like no second engine for the f-35 fighter, closing down joi forces command, across the board reduction. when you look at the state of th economy righ now, you have to it set a priorit my top priority is the deficit of jobs and economic growth. a especially this perception that the united states could be falling behind, especially asian economies. if we go through all the tax increases that congressional leaders proposed -- by the way, congress is going to come back right after the elecon in this layman duck seson of congress with a new round of spending in an appropriation bill and new tax increases. >> should -- the question is, mr. giannoulias, should tax cuts be paid for? >> this is aundamental policy difference between myself and congressman kirk.

he said he's a fiscal hawk. the congressman has told some whoppers, but that may be the biggest one of all. he has voted to increase his own pay six times, voted for the bridge to nowhere twice. the list goes on and on. saying you're a fiscal hawk doesn't necessarily make it true and your voting record proves it's not true. e question for the congressman is the $700 billion in tax cuts for the wealthiest americans, we don't have $700 billion. my question to the congressman is which country do you plan on borrowing $700 billion from, the saudis, china? we can't afford it. that's one of the problems, quite frankly, with washington, d.c., this overborrowing, over spending. >> tax cuts don't have to be paid for, republicans have said and t presint says there's $700 billion they want to extend. where are they going to get the mon sni. >> spending reductions across the boa, cutting out programs and making sure we have a new set of mechanisms.

for example, the president has been rumored to bring forward a line item veto proposal. republicans should support that. we should have a new grace commission put forward with a base closing powers to put a joint bill that the huse or senate one or up or down vote. to criticize my record on fiscal conservatism, in front of "the chicago tribune," they asked him name one spending bill you would vote to cut. he couldn't name one. as "the chicago tribune" said when they endorsed me, it was painful to watch. >> i will ask each of you,hat is the painful choice you would make to bring the budget into balan balance? ? a spending cut that you would make. >> this country has not been living within its means for a very long time and we're going to have to take our medicine and what they say in december is important to answer your

question and this is an area where the congressman and i would agree. i would have voted against the omnibus spending bill, which includ earmarks and a lot of pork. this is where the president made a mistake. >> everyone who comes into congress says we'll cut out wasteful spending. an expsion oentitlement spending, social security, medicare and the like. what wuld you do on some of these big runaway programs? social security, would you look at upping the retirement age in order to cut benefits and save some of that money? >> we'll have to take a look at what the deficit commission says and look at ideas. i'm personally not in favor of increasing the age limit. we need to look on the revenue side different options, increasing the taxable wage base, finding ways to get more revenue, but i'all for strengthening social security, not diminishing it. >> congressman kirk, if you were rious about cutting the deficit and cutting spending, why don't you stand up beside paul ryan, the congressman who has put draconian cuts lik medicare, do you stand with him in those cuts? >> we need a whole range of

cuts. >> do you stand with him and some of his suggested cuts to medicare? >> i have my own cuts which i want to put forward. we should, for example, sell off big parts of the tennessee valley, southeastern tower administratio consolidate maintenance at the department of defense, a lawsuit reform which would save at least the federal government 4 billion. i could go on a on beyond the f-35 engine and the earmark spending. >> do you go beyond the republican pledge, which is to go back to 2008 discretionary spending levels? >> we need a radical reduction in ending. >> beyondhe 2008 level? >> that's a great start. >> you do recognize 28 that's in the pledge isn't nearly enough to deal with the size of this debt, right? >> one thing that's missing from this whole debate is no effo to put forward pro-growth strate strategies. if the united states launches on

a plan, as my opponent's strategies would do, to be a very high-tech, high-spending, high-regulation economy like very ma european economies, we have the slow growth and high unemployment of those ecomies. that's not the american way. the american way is a limited government, and lower taxes. that's very robust, small business sector, which especially is employing low income and minority kids coming into the american dream. i very much worry right now that if we're embring a european style, very high debt, very high tax cut environment, we should suffer all the slow growth policies. >> congressman, you have said that you would lead the charge to repeal health care reform passed by this congress. is that still your position? >> that's right. i came back to the united states and i met with the republican leaders an said we have to be the party of better. we can't be the party of no. we put together the alternative which i introduced into congress. 4 h00 pages. it was not allowed for a debate, discussion or a vote. it did three big things, medical rights act, the congress should make no law that interferes with

the decisions you made with your doctor. and third, congress should defend your right to buy health insurance from any state in the union if you find the plan less expensive for your families. >> you will try to repeal it? >> let's look at the health care bill we passed, $500 billn in cuts for seniors, who depend on medicare. anotr ten new taxes that hit the economy. and a perverse incentive. what is the essence of health care bill in 30 sends? if you employ 50 americans or more, you must offer health insurance to the employees or pay a $2,000 fine. but health insurance in america, many times, costs more than $2,000, giving a perverse incentive for employers in 2014 to drop kronch coverage. >> are you running on health care reform? is that something you will stand by? >> i am run ong jobsnd helping small businesses. the health careill was far from a perfect vehicle. that being said, it did some

important things that the congressman wants to repeal, denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions, making sure that kids in between college and their first job have health ca and morally we shouldn't have 51 americans without affordable, basic health care. the health care system as we have it right now, we spend over 17% of our gdp on health care. it's bankrupting our families. it's bankrupting small businesses and bankrupting this country. the congressman has the talking points of $500 million in medicare cuts. the truth is a lot of medicare expenditures are fraud, waste and abuse. this creates efficiencies within medicare, aarp and m achlt ma endorsed it. there's a lot more to be done. would ve loved to have seen a provision to let the secretary of health and human services netiate drug rates for medicare the way the v.a. does. there's missed opportunities in e implementation -- >> pre-existing conditions

within our bill. i've traveled to thtop health care systems and they'll talk about these cuts as representing between a 30 and $100 million cut per hospital, leaving them to ccel exnsions. the effects of the cuts of your legislation are already being felt by the illinois health care facilities. >> let me move on to some of the personal aspects of this race. it's been pretty in nasty. negative tone by both of you. here was a poll in the chicago tribune, wgn. who do you consider more trustworthy or honest? 35 giannoulias, 30% kirk, 16% neither. can't be a figure either one of you are proud of. i want to go through some of the issues and talk through them. mr. giannoulias, back in 2006, you were running for state treasurer. this was part of an ad you put on the air, touting your record. >>people out there in illinois need our help. >> alexi giannoulias,

businessman, banker. >> treasurer's office is a fiscal office. we need to protect people's money. >> your family ban broadway bank, w seized by regulators and it went under. you released a statement earlier this year, creating some stance from the bank and when it was closed. let me put the atement on the screen. it was because my father instilled in his son the importance of helping others that i decided to leave the bnk in 2005. that's the key date here, 2005, to pursue public service. at the time i left, according to every independent analysis, the bank was one of the best performing in illinois. the chicago tribune summarized some of the issues at stake here. under this headline, giannoulias still worked at family's bank in 2006. candidate tells voters he left by late 2005. he says he was gone by late 2005 but that's not what he has told the irs. giannoulias was ae to take a $2.7 million tax dededuction

because he reported working hundreds of hours at broadway bank in 06. he says there's no contra addiction, that it highlights the fine line that he walked telling exactly what he did and when he did it. a bullseye for critics bank's loans forob figures that contbuted to the collapse earlier this year. saying he left i 2005 gives giannoulias maximum distance from the bank's questionable lending practices, the april takeover by federal regulators and other controversies such as a loan by the bank to convicted influence peddler tony rko. but by reporting that he worked at least 500 hours at broadway in 2006 giannoulias was able to get a break that helped him avoid paying federal income tax for 2009. >> paid millions of dolrs over the last five years. this is not what people are

talking about, david. when you bring up the bank, my as her came to this country an immigrant, started a community bank 30 years ago. this was not a fly by night company. it was his whole life, his legacy and he has helped thousands of people achieve the american dream. because of the devastating recession, we've seen more community banks go under than er before. another almost thousand community banks are on the watch list and, y know what? while i'm very fortunate and my family is very fortunate, i know what it's like to lose a family business because of this recession. >> let's get closer to the point. why did you say you left in 2005 but you tld the irs you were there working in 2006 in order to get the tax break. >> nothing i said have been inconsistent. i left day-to-day abrasion operationsin 2005. >> but you did work there in 2006? >> as i always said. nothing is inconsistent and i make my tax returns public, unlike the congressman. i make my tax returns public. i paid my state treasurer's salary in taxes and getting a refund because of a widely known

business failure and i'm giving that money to charity. >> were you aware of some of the loan activities to criminal figures? >> the way a community bank does business -- i kno when you run for office, these stories get sensationalized. when a bank decides who to give a loan to they look at the credit wortness of the borrower, credit score of the borrower, appraisal value of a property. any bank -- of course, there are individuals that we m not want to do business with, but that doesn't represent the thousands of people -- >> my question, mr. giannoulias, were you aware that there were crime figures getting loans from your bank? you were a loan officer there. >> if i knew now what i know -- if i knew then what i know now, these are not the kind of people we do our business with. >> you're say iing you didn't know? that's the easy question. did you know they were crime figure that is your bank was loaning money to? >> we didn't know the extent of

that activity. >> but you knew that they were -- >> if you look at any bank, bigger bank, you'll find hundreds of individuals. >> that's not what i'm asking. did you know they were engaged in crime activities tt you were loaning to? >> i didn't know the extent -- >> it appears that the broadway bank, the giannoulias family bank, has ties to the mob, convicted felons. you're running this with the senate replican committee. >> alexi giannoulias has made tony soprano proud. >> are you saying he has ties to organized crime? >> this is a list of all the bankloans to convicted mobsteres and felons. the ones in yellow is the one he was the senior officer, these are all infamous mob figures and banks who have very long and storied record. you don't have to pull their rap

sheet. it's within the chicago tribune. >> the congressma who has never worked in the private sector, doesn't know what it takes -- what a bank does when they look at whether or not to approve or deny a loan. he pulls some names and tries to make it a political attack. people aren't buying it. that's why we're up in the polls. this is what's wrong with politics. someone like congressman kirk, who has no idea what it's like in the private sector, to go t there and say these are convicted mobsteres. >> do you stand by all those ads? he's sitting right here. does he have connections to organized crime, in your judgment, or was there bad judgment by thbank? >> the broadway bank provided an extraordinary amount of capital to mob figures and convicted felons after they had been convicted and that's absolutely the -- i was in the private sector. i did work. i'll tell you the private sector experience i don't have. i don't have experience in loing money to mob figures. i don't have experience in reckless loans to commercial

real estate and brokered hot n mon deposits leading to a collapse of the bank. treasurer giannoulias' work of the bank, analysis showed that it was his decision that led to the collapse transferring a $390 million bill. >> i'll give you the final word and we'll take a break. >> we shouldn't be surprised that the congressman is lying again. look at the loans that were past due and the bank was taken over, like thousands ofommunity banks that are dealing wi challenges, less than 9% of the loans -- it's a political war, understand that. for him to characterize my family that way is misleading, it's offensive. people aren't buying it. the congressman wouldn't know the difference because he has been in d.c. for 20 years. >> we'll leave this issue be here. we'll take a break. there have ben credibility issues that you've raised, congressman, during the campaign. we'll come back with more of our illinois senate debate after this brief commercial break.

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are back to continue our debate with the two candidates vying for the senate seat once held by president obama. we're back to continue our debate with the candidates battling to be the next u.s. senator of illinois for the seat onceeld by president obama. congressman kirk, there have been issues raised on the campaign tra that has to do with your military record, you were a naval reserve as an intelligence officer, you served in afghanistan, iraq, congressional medal for kosovo. all that makes icurious for some of the exaggerations. back in june, i'll put it on the screen, kirk's problems began with the revelation that his frequent references to being named the navy's intelligence officer of the year were we false.

followed by a long string of other errors and exaggerations, a letter from his office said he served in the gulf war, when he didn't. the first gulf war. he also referred to serving in the vasion of iraq, although his duties kept him stateside. he said it sometimes running the pentagon war room even though he only oversees the intelligence operations. although he had clearly described coming under fire while flying missions over kosovo and iraq, kirk began hedge and say that he couldn't be sure his plane was targeted by the anti-aircraft fire. and he didn't mention that he rode along on only a handful of ights. kirk's campaign also denied he his military duties. also earlier in the year, my question is given your own military record, would you wou you exaggerate these? >> i made mistakes with regard to my military misstatements. i was careless and i learned a very painful and humbling lesson. this is very important to me. in my naval training as a naval officer, we are trained to take

command, to be responsible, to be accountable for our personnel, for our unit and our mission. and i am completely accountable for this. so, i corrected the record. >> whoa, whoa. how does one get careless on that? if you served overseas, and you have, anybody who's in combat is very clear on whether they were in combat not. if you're a voter and you're listening to this, should there not be se credibility test for you? should that have some weight in whether you can be trusted if you're going to exaggerate your military record? >> there certainly should be and the level of scrutiny here i completely appropriate because this is a very high office. for me, what i did is first to correct the record, then apologize to the people of illinois. then i released all 21 years of my officer fitne reports, these are my confidential personnel files, to everyone so that they could read. i'm very proud omy record. ve served in afghanistan in

northern watch and operation allied fce. i believe in this country very greatly and i would give my life for it. i think it's made me aetter congressman. >> bottom line, did you say that you were once shot at when, in fact, you were not? >> for example, when you're flying over iraq as a big nato strike package, whether or not the iraqis opened fire on us. >> this is a very serious charge. do you accept his explanation? >> that's for the congressman to explain to the voters of illinois. but even more troubling than untruth was the military record than his fancy teaching career, more troubling to me are his votes in washington, d.c. here is someone where you don't knowhere he stands. "the chicago sun times" pointed out friday we don't know where he stands on important issues. the people of linois may not agree with what i say but they

always know where i stand. congressman kirk runs as a republican for the senate and said he would never vote that way again and it was a huge mistake. they asked him his thoughts on the dream act, don't ask, don't tell. he said he's not sure yet. i'll tell you where i stand. that's leadership. that's what the people of illinois want and that's what i'm give them the rest of my career. that's the fundamental difference in principles, values and morals between myself and the congressman. >> i want to close wi this thought. we are in partnership with facebook and their politics page and we've solicited a queson from dmitri morris. congressman kirk, i'll start with you on this. name two issues in your party's platform that you do not agree with and why. >> for example, i backed stem cell research. i very much support hate crimes legislation. it was the conyers/kirk bill. i also supported health insurance for low-income kids through the s-chip program, rated as one of the most independent members of congress. fiscal conservative, social moderate. >> mr. giannoulias, two areaof the democratic party you don't

agree with, where you buck your party? >> the way that the t.a.r.p.- >> republicans started that. >> misseopportunity, i think. i would have loved to have seen increased access to capital requirements for banks to lend money out. we fought and saved jobs, one of the things we did was go after wells fargo and said you can't let this company falter or fail. you kn, the congressman always uses the word independent. the truth is the only thing he has been independent of in this race is the truth. this is an incredibly important race. we need fresh leadership, new ideas. we need to help create jobs. people in illinois are getting crushed, crushed by is recession. washington, d.c., isn't working. and my question is why in the world would we send the same people who created this mess back to washington, d.c.? that's why the people of illinois need some new ideas and fresh voices. >> the debe will continue. the campaign will continue in crunch time no good luck to both of you. thank you for sharing your views th us here this morning on "meet the press."

we'll be watching closely, of course. coming up here next, we will have our political round table and talk about some of the big issues that continue on the campaign trail. we'll have more from the campaign trail next week. colorado senor michael bennet will square off the republican and tea party favorite, our senate debate series coming up next week on "meet the press." midterm picture, new jobless numbers, tight races across the nation, and another high-level obama administration departure. how will it imct the obama administration departure. how will it imct the campaigns? i said "sure." "well, let's grow somelgae." and that's what started it. exxonmobil and synthetic genomics have built a new facility to identify the most productive strains of algae. algae are amazing little critters. they secrete oil, which we could rn into biofuels. they also absorb co2. 're hoping to supplement the fuels that we use in our vehicles, and to do this at a large enough sle

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>> we're back. we turn our roundtable to get perfect expectative on today's debate. as we get closer to november, joining me now, joe klein, author of"what i sa political life in the reagan era." and peggy noonin. joe, dodging embarrassment oma in the top senate race. there's a lot here on the line for him. >> giannoulias just said he didn't know the full extent of the criminal activity of people that his bank was giving loans to. i don't think i've ever seen a politician say anything like that before. >> it's part of what has been such a negative campaign, peggy. and we put this on the screen

now. it's a tight race, in part, perhaps because congressman kir's statements about his military record but giannoulias is seen as more of a flawed candidate and perhaps that answer is going to dodge him. >>yeah. i think it might. look, it is a very -- one of the things that turns off people about politics is that it can be so negative, so rsonal. if they look at their own lives, they know anything they did could be made to something huge, negative and bad if it were turned into a 60-second spot. and a lot of people running for office this year do not want to talk about issues or do not want to talk about their past stands on issues and so they're just challenging each other personally, he lied, she lied. he did this. it is not fortunate during a crisis. >> is there an obama effect in iinois? >> i was in kirk's old district

during this rd trip and obama has 50%, 59%, 60% approval in that district. a district that's goneull republican in the past. obama is still very popular in illinois. but i want to pick up on what peggy said. and the amazing thing toe about this this debate is how much it is at variance with the way people are actually feeling in this country. they are freaked out. they're panicked. they really are sred that the jobs we've lost are not coming back this time and that their kids won't live as well as they have. and instead of this tit for tat political stuff youee in all of the negative ads, they want to hear real ideas about how we're going to -- >> to that point, the cover piece i just mentioned, this is a portion of it i thought was so interesting. you write i find the same themes dominant everywhere, a rethinking, moment of national intros pechlt ction. disgraceful behavior of the

financial community and debilitating effects on the country was the issue that raised passion by far. it's like americans are saying who do we trust now. >> exactly. the investment community, people are putting two and two together. the same people who did the mergers and acquisitions that led to these jobs being shipped overseas then turned their attention to the housing market and began giving with the help of fannie mae and freddie mac these mortgages to people who shouldn't have gotten them, made gazillion dollars off these products and caused the crash of 2008. so, people are looking at the financial community. they're looking at china. and they're not seeing the president of the united states or the republicans really talking about this. >> pey, to that point, look, you'vgot some populism, the tea party, christine o'donnell. some of these candidates come out of a place of deep economic anxiety that could be prolonged

and that could be a real effect on our politics, prolonged unemployment. >> yeah, there could. look, i think joe and i were talking before we came out. the biggest change, politically, in my sboir lifetime is the fact that the american people now no longer feel that they will be hanng on to their country a stronger, better place where their kids will get a jb and their kids can get a hose. i wouldn't call it pessimism, but a new, sober, almost sadness is out there. and, in part, is shaping things. nobody expects the kind of economic growth that we are ing to need to produce enough jobs not only for everybody to keep their job, but for young people coming up. >> you talk about reagan and that sense of optimism and beli in the fut. our recent poll indicated that what's really tough is now that so many people are out of work, they don't have much faith in

the president's policies to turn things around. >> i think part of what's coming in just a few weeks, i november, is probably a rebuke of ou leership. and i think that mit be fairly severe, but the larger issue is that i don't think the american people look at washington and see people who, a, can know what needs to be done and, b, can actually summon the will and grit to do it. they don't see that leadership as likely and so they are frustrated because they hire leaders to make things better and now they don't feel that whoever they hire will get the there. >> what is the dominant feeling or sentiment you hear expressed about the pesident himself? >> i didn't go through the deep south, which is very red. i also didn't go into urban neighborhoods, which are very blue. >> we have a map we can show. >> oh, really?

>> yes. >> i want to remember this. but, anyway, people respect him. you don't see the anger that you often see on cable news. certainly there's some obama haters out there. most people respect him but they don't quite admire him he's floating over this debate and doesn't seem to be part of the things that people are most concerned abou they don't understand what's in the health reform legislation. they don't understand what's in the financialreform legislation. they're beginning to see the stimulus in a different way. you can't drive 30 miles without hitting a road crew and they're feeling abouert about the auto bailout but they feel that the big issues that we're talking about here, the jobs being expressed overseas, china. they haven't heard from him. every time someone mentions afghanistan, the war in afghanistan, which is an issue i've been obsessed with, they

mentioned china 25 times. >> can i say that i think that the issues, the way i would put it with regard to the president, is a certain off pointss. the country has consistently been talking about the things a, b, and c. even when he comes forward, the past week when he is on the stump, the issues he's speaking of are extranneous. >> the frustration i hear is right. >> i've got to tell you, it's part of the -- >> we don't have people in washington who are real problem solvers, willing to speak like adult iis to other adults and say this is what has to happen. >> that's right. >> yeah. i think -- and, look, the rise of the tea party, great cliche we've all been talking about is very inresting, very evolving, very changing. it most interesting element is that it is not only a reaction to democratic party leadership, it is a critique of the past ten years of republican leadership. the republican party will either

evolve and change in interesting ways along with the tea rty or not but are the voters saying i love the republicans? >> not yet. >> i want to show sarah palin, speaking last night. it's interesting, some of what she said. i want to play a piece of her speech because it gets to what may be next. this is what she said. >> i say some things that maybe some of you can't say. i have no title. i have no uniform. i have no office. it's todd and me. i get to say what i feel and i'm going to speak for some of you who may be thinking it but can't say it. >> what does she represent, joe? she talked about reagan-like revival on the right. is she running? >> she may well be running. she represents maybe 30% of the population. from what i saw, thtea party movement had enormous impact within the republican party, but not beyond it. and maybe to some independents. >> if this could be described

very briefly, people know what the government stands for, lower taxes, less regulation. they have no idea what the democrats stand for except for big pieces of legislation we've seen which contain ridiculous provisions. one candidate in nevada, republican, running for oice says there's a provision in the health care refirm bill that small businesses have to set aside areas for breastfeeding women to use their breast pumps. my dad was a small businessman. he didn't nd to be told by the government to do that. he would have said use my office. >> we have about 30 secds. what's the dynamic in the next 20 some odd days before the election? >> it may impact the results. i think the result is pretty well set. i think it will be a rising up against huge spending. at least the american ople feel maybe they can put some presse on politicians to start

to control federal government spending. >> and to contract government when it's not held to a very high standard? >> that's a conundrum. people would rather have the governmt spending mon on job programs that actually work than on deficit reduction, which they've never really cared about. >> they have an out of control with spending, they real do. it's too big. the deficit -- when you get into the teens, trillions, you're in trouble. >> good place to end. thank you both very much. we'll leave it there and we'll be right back.

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