billion -- trillion, can we really afford to give mm airs a $160 this tax cut? that's the big questn here. i think now you saw mr. goolsbee, the president, even president clinton all agree that the answer is no. if that doesn't seem to the fight we have in washington. >> in the end do you vote against this? >> i think the house of representatives on t democratic side said we won't go for this deal. we have to get something done to make sure taxes go down for the middle class and, two, it has to be done quickly. we're doing our job in congress. we're going to change this and hopefully the esident will back us up as we try to take out the worst things that are in it. >> congressman, how do you feel? >> this position that anthony is taking is the one that was rejected on november 2nd. as much as i believe all taxes should go up on every american to some small extent, we're dealing with a different congress and a different ality. in comparison to president clinton when he lost in '94, remember, unemployment was not at 10%. the kind of whipping we took as democrats in the congress was not as large and as grave as it

was a few weeks ago. i think the president should lean morinto this agreement. we got everything we wanted. we got cuts for the middle class. we got payroll tax cuts. we got an acceleration of tax cuts for business and even had extended some of the other tax cuts the president wanted and in addition, 13 months of unemployment compensation. e only thing that we added was the cuts for the top earners, less than a quarter of the spending. if you look at the bulk of the spending, additional debt spending her the majority is for the middle class cuts, which i support. if we had 65 votes in the senate, 300 in the house, i think anthony's point would be the one that is followed. president clinn said it very well. this is no time for a mexican standoff. challenges we face are grave. the agreement reached by this president and republican sincere is a good one. it could have been worse. >> the question is, to you, does this signal an aual shift in the president's philosophy of what's going to make the economy work again? >> they're saying no, no shift.

however, it is a shift. i love the symbolism of two democratic presidents, not one, butwo, endorsing bush tax cuts, saying we need them to help the economy. the president is implicitly admitting that tax rates matter after a couple of years as you showed in the conversation with goolsbee and geithner said they don't matter. yes, they do matter. tax cuts matter more for growth than spending. and it makes you wonr, why didn't they do this two years ago? >> you heard from mayor bloomberg, the left the president should say suck it up, take the longer view here. i gather that don't sit well with you. >> no, look, it dependwhat your philosophy is. i'm not a member of the tail between my legs democratic party. i believe we fight for the things we care about >> do you think the president is -- >>ere is what i will say. this is not a fringe element of the debate going on the last ten years. this is the crux of it. the middle css is getting

crushed while the well to do have done remarkably well. i did math on a back of an envelope on the way in. 3% of the beneficiaries of the tax cuts will get 38% of the tax. it's just not fair. something else. you cannot say you are concerned about the deficit and support giving giant tax cuts on the estates of billionaires or giant tax cuts to millionaires. it's inconsistent. you fight for the values. today, with a mantle in th house, majority in the senate and we control the presidency and we're acting like we he a weak hand. we have the right side of the issues and the numbers and i don't know -- >> it's the question of timing. why it is the president put himself in this position to have to negotiate out of such weakness. what's going to be different in 2012, another political year, to make him think he will prevail in this argument? >> you heard austan goolsbee make the argument, the economy will be in a better position. they are banking everything on that because they think they'll say now we can afford to see those tax rates rise on the wealthiest americans.

one of the most potent arguments against letting those wealthiest americans tax cuts expire. republican side is that it will imperil the recovery. i don't think the presidt has backed off his position of being against the tax cuts, rolling back the tax cuts of the wealthiest. the point is he's staring at the barrel of a gun. the tax rates are going up in january and he's not going to take that gamble. that's why he made this deal. the question is, six months ago, why didn't democra in the house force this issue? why didn't they make it a campaign issue as some liberal members of the caucus wanted to? >> democrats probably should have done that. i supported them doing that. paul, in fairness, you wrote a great editorial. it was funny in some ways, saying president bush should have been on the panel up there with president obama rather than clinton. one of the realities of the mess that we're in we ssed the medicare prescription drug plan without paying for it which president bush did.

we're fighting two wars. we have not paid for them. as much as they are noe causes, i think we'll have a strategic assessment on whether or not afghanistan should continue but president obama has a unique opportunity to reduce the debt. i hope "the wall street journal" and othe will ask the paul ryans of the world to support responsible tax increases and responsible spendi cuts. you cannot be for just cutting spending and not raising taxes at some level. this president might have had a stronger hand if he said we're gog to raise taxes on everybody and i'm going to stand firm. since he chose not to do it, which i'm glad he did not, i think it's the right thing to do and anthony and others will come around. >> what about to peter orszag's point that all of these tax cuts are unaffordable and in two years they should go away? >> i don't agree with that. i would love to see a larger tax reform. all this deal really does is extend the status quo. so, that's n terrific. it's going to help avoid a huge hit to the economy in 2011.

that's good, but i would love to see a larger reform. maybe both parties can get together on that a that'the kind of debate we'll be having going into 2012. >> i'm going to take a break and come back and ask two very pointed questions. is there something of a war between e president and the left, given his comments this weekend? and what does this deal say in terms of bipartisanship? know why we're here. ♪ to connect our forces to what they need, when they need it. ♪ to hel troops see danger, before it sees them. ♪ to answer the call of the brave and bring th safely home. [ female announcer ] around the globe, the people of boeing are working together, to support and protect all who serve. that's why we're here. ♪ and while it can never be fully answered, it helps to have a financial partner like northern trust.

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we're back with more from our roundtable, because they just keep talking during the break. you have to hear all of this. congressman weiner, to hear the president talk, and he talked about the criticism of the left, he said it felt like a return to the debate on health care. he said i could have stuck to my guns on that and then we wouldn't have had health care reformat all. listen to how heput . >> so this notion that somehow, you know, we are willing to

compmise too much reminds me of the debate we had during health care. this is the public option debate all over again and we will be able to feel good about ourselves and sanctimonious about how pure our intentions are and how tough we are, and in the meantime, the american people a still seeing themselves not able to get health insurance because of pre-existing conditions. >> that's his view. congress this week, you were leading a chant that says no, we can't. not yes, we can. this is a real standoff. >> firsoff, i wasn't lead negative such chant. let me say this. the president needs to understand that the critique he gets from his base and supporters that wan had io succeed is different from mitch mcconnell. it feels like the public option. had he fought harder for that, we would have had it. the presiden needs to understand an enormous number of us are waiting to be called to

have this competition of ideas. we really need to have this contest. look, he made a deal. it doesn't necessarily mean it's a great one. we in ngress have it. we're trying to improve upon it. we're on his teep. when he calls us sanctimonious and says it's like past debates, the only reason it's like pa debates, we still want him to be the president we elected. we will help him do that. if digs in, he will find the american people supportive and we, his supporters, will rally to his side. >> was this a moment to go back to the clinton era for president obama to stand up to the base? >> i think he's staning up for americans and standing up for jobs. i like anthony and respect him a lot. to suggt that the president doesn't fight a lot,e had a fight a outcome on november 2nd. he has fought and fought and fought and given the democrats in congress the ball to run every time. unfortunately the american people, whether it's a communications problem -- i don't think it is.

it's hard to communicate effectively with 9.8% unemployment and have people rally around you. the president's move last week was an important move for the american people. if at the end of the day unemployment begins to drop by a quarter point, every democrat, including anthony, will say this is the right thing to do. >> what does it say about how this president wants to do business in washington over the next couple of years? >> what's fascinating about this, i don't know that there was a ton of strategy going into this. i think it was dictated by circumstances. they had to make a deal. they felt they had to. perhaps it was to draw out the partisan on both sides and stake out this middle ground. the news conference on tuesday was so remarkable in the sense that it seems to me to be the most thentic view of president obama we've seen. this seem to be the closest approximation of the man behind closed doors being fceful and compelling, but interestingly, all that fight, all that vim and

vigor was directed to the left of his own party and you can see he's incredibly frustrated by that. it's like republicans, i pect them to oppose me, but why aren't the left in my own party supporting me when i've been o there. >> washington post, columnist who the white house apparently lo loves now, he wrote the following, which is much more complimentary of obama and where he is going the next couple of years. he writes this, a great cost that will have to be paid after this newest free lunch, the package will add as afternoon as 1% to gdp and lower the unemployment rate by about 1.5 percentage points that could easily be the difference between victory and defeat in 2012. obama is no file. while getting republicans to boost his own reflection chances, he getshem to make a mockery of theirnewfound, second chance, post bush, tea party, this time we're serious

persona of debt averse fiscal responsibility. >> i don't think it will be that great a stimulus but the economy has momentum. th assures we won't stop that momentum and send the country back into recession. it will help, no question. it also helps republicans, though, honor a campaign promise. they get to do that. a lot of republicans who aren't thrilled with this deal because they had to give up a lot and they would love to see the house democrats defeat this. because they'll come back in january and say we'll clean up the mess. you'll be responsible for tax increases. we'll get a better deal for our voters. >> the only ings that republicans really wanted comng out ofthis campaign -- we know what they're against, health care and a lot of things democrats did the last couple of years. the only things they wted, they got them. the estate tax, that's where the leverage was for the president on that. we gave away that and then se. >> you needed to do that in order to get some of the

other -- >> every economist that t president roll out and supported this plan, ever one of them said the tax cuts on the estate tax and upper bracket do virtually zero. those were the giveaways to the republicans. when did the fight happen, full thrtle fight happened? harold is 100% wrong if you think it happened during the campaign. between the time of the state of the union and the election, this, our primary point of difference with the epublicans, the priorities. we defend the middl class. they defend the rich. >> your position was defeaed roundly november 2nd. i'm ademocrat, proud democrat. more importantly, i'm a proud american. the president, forthe first time in the eyes of many americans, particularly independents who voted for him, said we're going to strike a deal. i got everything i wanted. i don't know if anything in this tax bill that we didn't get that a democrat wanted. if we gained 60 seats, he

wouldn'tave to be here. there would be a huge broad agreement. the reality is that big winners yesterday, the day before, the day before that are the american people because government is working. >> has the president defined himself? is there a pragmatism? >> aides say he has always been this guy. >> not always seen. >> right. on the left, they liked edwards. thawas their candidate not barack obama. but when he became the nominee, people say he protected -- he is the man that he has been, pragmatist and that's the obama you will see. we want to take a moment to remember elizabeth edwards who was laid to rest yesterday next to her late son, wade, before ndreds of mourners. she was praised for her strength, wit and grace. 61-year-old wife of former democratic vice presidential

nomie john edwards died tuesday after a six-year battle with breast cancer. she was a political force in her own right, attorney, author and writer for reform. our thoughts this was me, best ribs in nelson county, but i wasn't winning any ribbons managing my diabetes. it was so complicated. there was a lot of information out there. but it was frustrating trying to get the answers i needed. then my company partnered with unitedhealthcare.

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she was there. >> she'd walk io the room and it just kind of brightened. >> and then she wasn't. >> oh my god. what's happened? >> the mother they adored missing. in her place, a trail of blood. >> my biggest fear is that we were going to find her. >> what police found instead was

a puzzle. >> in my 28 years i have never seen that before. >> a missing woman, a mystery with few clues. >> did you find any dna? >> no. >> did you find any even fingerprints? >> no. >> hairs, anything? >> no. >> but did one man have a motive? >> steals $300,000 and about to be exposed for it. >> except without proof how could anyone convince a jury? so you do't think there were useful items against you? >> can anyone name anything? >> could anyone solve the mystery? >> we the jury find the defendant david martin hawk -- >> the disappearance of debbie hawk. >> good evening and welcome to "dateline." i'm ann curry. when someone goes missing, one of the worst things is not

knowing what happened. did they escape or did something happen? three children arrived home one evening to discover their mother was missing but for them the truth about what real happened may have been the hardest thing of all. here's keith morrison. >> the key was waiting for them under the mat. that evening, in june 2006, outside their mom's house, silence. no one home. where was she? she was always on time to pick them up fom their dad's place. but tonight, he had to drive them. this just wasn't like her. where was she? conr conrad, the eldest, put the key in the lock, opened the door. stopped. what was this? >> once we took a few more steps in then we realized there was something wrong. >> this was the moment, the defining one. nothing the same after this.

>> and there was a lot of blood. everywhere. >> then the adrenaline kicked in, instinct took over. >> we just dropped our stuff and split throughou the house. >> panic rising now. conrad was 15 then. his little sisters 14 and savannah 10. three kids trying to make sense of a horribly frightening cene. >> mom normally keeps it completely spick and span. there's hardly any dust anywhere let alone anything out of order. >> and now everything was anything but. de scattered, things were everywhere. >> and the bedroom? >> my sister, she quickly called us in and we followed her. >> what could you see there? >> there's blood on the ground. a lot? >> yeah. >> her mom's bed was made but -- >> it was kind of happhazardly

thrown together. >> she would have done it differently? >> right. >> at that point you were pretty upset i imagine. >> yeah. my biggest fear was that we were going to find her. that's what scared me most is to find her somewhere in the house. >> but they did not. no debbie hawk. not anywhere. >> there was some drag marks, some kind of smear marks leading out to the garage where they stopped. >> and debbie's van was gone, too. >> my initial reaction was, oh my god, what's appened? >> sure. >> who could have done this? the girls ran to a neighbor's house. conrad called 911. >> my mom's house and the bathroom and there's bloodon the carpet. >> after the initial shock of it, i kind of start to be reasonable and think, oa, whoa, wait a minute. let's not overreact. clearly she cut her hand with a knife or something and she was bleeding and she raced out to the c to go to the emergency

room this is all just a big misunderstanding. >> but it wasn't. though there were plenty of misunderstandgs to come and questions that stubbornly refuse to be answered like where was debbie hawk? what happened to her? and what happened to the sacred bond that once held three children together? back in the beginning, even the police were confused. >> this case seemed very unusual from the start. >> police investigator darren madson and d.a. aaron he blue worked other cases here in california and out among the suburbs, the giant odorous dairy farms across the hundreds of miles of flat vall floor but this one did not smell right at all, thought madison. >> appeared she was drug out of thhouse, obviously against her will into my 28 years i have never seen that before. >> whatever happened here must

have bn planned, thought out. >> it looked like a staged crime scene. her jewelry in the bedroom neatly laid out where she put it. nothing was mussing but her and her van. >> had somebody been trying to make it look like debbie hawk had been kidnapped or was the intention, a failed intention, perhaps, to show she just left home? >> i believe it was designed the look like a missing person's case. the bed was made. most of the crooks do don't this. >> had the perpetrator been looking for something? >> there were paperwork that normally would have been put away at least stacked up, it wasn't. it was scattered and this financial document was on op. >> significant? maybe. but certainly significant were the sounds neighbors reported hearing in the middl of the night, the night before debbie's kids arrived at her doorstep and discovered she was missing. >> several neighbors actually heard a ld scream.

it was a blood curdling type. >> why did nobody call 911? >> that is the type of neighborhood that bad things happen n. >> no one, not the type o person didn't bad things happen. debbie was an accomplished woman, a sales rep for a pharmaceutical firmnd with wide circle of friends was immensely popular. >> she was very regal and to us royalty. she definitely fits the bill as therincess. >> she should have been a kennedy. >> uh-huh. >> which is why the ribbons that suddenly bloomed everywhere were royal purple and the people who put the ribbons on and up also joined a search to find her, hundreds ofthem combed through the miles and miles of farmland around town. they walked the riverbanks, they peered among the trees. not a trace. by then, as you can imagine, the whole town knew about the disappearance of debbie hawk.

and they knew something else, too. two days after she vanished there was a find and it wasn't good. but it wasn't debbie. instead, police found her van. it was parked on the street in a high crime district of fresno 40 miles from home. the drug samples deie kept in the van, medications for nasal allergies and asthma, were missing and this was weird. the windows were down. the keys in the ignition. the license plate had been replaced with a stolen one. >> it appears that whoever left it there wanted somebody to get in and drive off. >> oh, and one more thing, the van's backseat was covered with blood. >> at that point, whenever was driving the van would immediately become a suspect in debbie hawk'sdisappearance. >> police were pretty sure that was exactly what the killer wanted. it was a ruse, an attempt to plant blame sewhere else. but around town, some people had already begun directing blame at one individual. they thought they knew who did

it. >> she had said to me, you know, if anything ever happens to me, you know where to look. >> but suspicion runs fast, the truth dodd ls along. has arrived even now? coming up, who had the making of such terrible threats against debbie? and why? >> it was like, she gets a taste of her own medicine. she's going to get hers. she's gong to get what she has coming to her. >> when the disappearance of debbie hawk continues. during cold and flu season. that's why we started a mission for health. by going beyond clean surfac to healthy surfaces. by making a healthy way to wash hands. and even by working with a pediatrician to delop lysol healthy habits initiatives in schools. when you use lysol, you're a part of something bigger.

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you couldn't go anywhere that summer of 2006 without seeing those purple ribbons, a vivid reminder of debbie hawk, the mother of three who vanished from her home in hanford, california, leaving only traces of blood. before long, in her absence, debbie was famous as if everybody in town had known the wom her children so loved. >> she walk into the room and it just kind of brightened. >> never a dull moment. >> she was all for her family, her children. >> thes are her parents. angie and bud triantis. >> hard worke she was just to me she was

perfect. she was perfect daughter. and i dearly love her and miss her. >> it was a lot of lives that have been shattered because of her demise. >> demise, yes. no getting around it now. in ju of 2006, the case was reclassified from missing person to homicide. a formality, really. they knew from the momenthey arrived at the house said d.a. investigator arend la blue, somebody killed debbie. >> we kept up hopes, obviously, for the family's sake but it was obvious she was not alive based on the crime scene. >> investigators poked around debbie's life history, looking for clues. >> she was very talkative, friendly, likable. >> always kind of the life of the party. >> this is debbie's sister diane who recalled how friends set her on that blind date years ago.

>> firecracker. >> he was the date. dave hawk. >> she was short and attractive and a lot of n. and a pretty good sense of humor. you know? you'd say something and she'd pop back with something you didn't quite expect. >> they were married within a year, built a home among his family's almond groves. >> i think they both wand to have a family and i think that was like the impetus for the acceleration, i guess you'd say, of the relationship. >> though debbie' big sister wast sure what she saw? him. >> he seemed very quiet, very opposite of my sister. >> then, before long, conrad arrived and chelsa and savannah. >> i still remember chrisases where my brother and i would run round delivering the gifts to

everybody and everybody was getting along. definitely some happy memories there. >> but some sadly alot of unhappy withins, too. >> pretty much from when i can remember, fighting and arguing were pretty routine. >> and after nearly no lly nine this marriage like so many others fell apart. >> we might have been a little bit mo different than we were willing to admit early on. >> even at that age, i could definitely see, yeah, the water was about to boil over. >> the kids were 9, 8 and 4 when the divorce was finalized in 2000. an young conrad, chelsa and savannah learned how to navigate the choppy waters known too well by children of dorce. >> they just couldn't really talk to each other really so i tried to step in and resolve that. >> you were kind of the mediator, in a way.

>> yeah. >> tough role for a kid, isn't it? >> easier than have them yelling at each other on the phone. >> and living apart, said conrad -- >> my mom was happier than ever. i think all of our lives improved. >> debbie did well enough as armaceutical representative that she was able to buy a home. >> she could finally live her life the way she wanted to. >> except there were issues. once after they separated during the squabbles over divorce, she claimed he tried to choke her. >> she said, he just looked li a crazed animal. and i thought he was going to killcn@ me. and not too long after that she had said to me, y know, if anything ever happened to me, you know where to look. >> dave said that choking thing just never happened. that he wasn't everiolent with her. >> i've never choked anybody. >> things settled down eventually though there was always so dispute and the things conrad says he heard his

dad say about his mom, awful. >> things like, she needs a taste of h own medicine. she's gong to get her she's going to get what she has coming to her. >> in fact, the very night he discovered debbie vanished, conrad told police his da might have done this. >> i wasn't seeing athing to disqualify him from being able to carry that out. >> which is why just hours after the kids discovered debbie was missing, 2:20 a.m.,y hen, police called dave, woke him up, asked him to drive down to police headquarters for a talk and the phone call was curious thought instigator matteson because dave didn't ask why. >> i've received calls in the middle of the night. my first thought f me is family. what's going on? especially if it's the police department. he didn't. >> and when he arrived in the interview room? >> what's going on?

>> dave didn't seem to have much of a reaction at all. to learning his ex-wife, the mother of his three kids, was missing. >> at this point, i have no clue as to where she might be. >> well, i can tell you what's been going on the last week. >> what did you expect? >> more surprise, any surprise. i didn't see that at all. >> of course, people do react in differentays to traumatic news. besides, dave told them he was at home asleep in the early morning hours when police believe debbie must have been killed. and his kids said they didn't hear him leave the house. they were there, too, at the time. and there was no evidence that dave was ever at the crime scene. did you find any dna? >> no. >> did you find any even fingerprints? >> no. >> hairs, anything? >> no. >> but then, they'd just begun to uncover the troubling secrets of dave and debbie hawk. coming up, a family divided. >> i don't believe that he'd

even be capable of doing something like this. >> my suspicion was growio

it was a frustrating summer back in 2006 here in the farmlands of california's central valley. those purple ribbon search teams came up empty though they looked everywhere for weeks. police named dave hawk a person of interest. but he seemed to have an alibi, all three kids were with him in his house the night debbie vanished. and besides, there wasn't a shred of physical evidence to tie dave to the scene of an apparently violent abduction. his own daughter who spent the day after the abduction with dave told police it couldn't have been him. >> i don't believe he'd be capable of doing something like this. >> but then they started poking

around in the relationship between debbie and her ex-husband and thers some curious things began to emerge. for example, in the months before debbie disappeared, dave tookñr debbie to court and she s fighting back. debbie's attorney -- >> the issues that she was dealing with were custody and support. >> dave had asked the court r a reduction in his $553 a month child support payment. why? because he claimed he only earned $6,000 a year. his salary cme from his dad who paid him $500 a month to work on the almond farm. the only income, apparently. >> he lived in what i understood to be a very nice ome, drove a late model suburban. that's hard to do on $6,000 a year. >> debbie asked the court for more time with the children. >> his response waso ask for half custody. the percentages before something

like 65 with debbie and 35 with dave. and he wantedto make it an even 50-50. >> and that's when the battle moved to these. trust funds set up for the children's futures. theoney came from dave's father but dave controlled the funds. and debbie was sure dave was stealing from them to suppo his own lifestyle. why would she think that? well, this was actually the second set of trust established for the children. several years before, a judge caught dave's hand in the cookie jar of the first trust which listed both dave and debbie as trustees. dave was removed as trustee of those funds but during the divorce dave's father gave him sole ntrol of a second quite generous trust fund. but when investigators ran the numbers on that second fund administered only by dave -- >> basically supposed to be

several hundred of thousands dollars in each account but there wasn't. he wasliving off of it for up to about five years at that point. >> something like $300,000 was missing. though dave cried poverty, he bought his girlfriend mary a $27,000 lexus, took her on vacation to hawaii and used $60,000o pay off divoe costs and the $1,500 owed to the kids from the first set of trusts. but here, believed the detectives, was the heart of the motive for murder. debbie, if she hadn't disappeared, was about to expose all of that in court. >> he stole $300,000 and about to be exposed for it. >> good motive. >> exactly. >> there was yet another stnge piece to this puzzle. remember that mess around debbie's desk? documents scattered everhere. sitting right on top of the pile were the records from the children's first set of trusts.

the one only debbie controlled. >> there's$166,000 in those accounts. >> the investigators in hanford now focused hard on dave. searched s home, several times. carted off lots of stuff, including a stun gun which it turned out he bought a month befe debbie disappeared. he told investigators it was for home protection for his daughters and girlfriend mary. >> how come you never discussed wit mary or the chilen at all. they did not know it existed. >> they couldt find anything to connect the stun gun to the crime but it was odd. they also took his computers, of course. and since dave did volunteer work at a local church, they seized the church computer, too. even cuffed him outside his house in full view of local television cameras which were now buzzing around endlessly asking, did you do it? >> for the last time, no.

i'm getting tired of answering that question. no means no. but e fools at the hanford police department don't seem to understand that. they're on a witch hunt is what's going on. they're on a witch ht. >> whatever they were on, they couldn't find the evidence to arrest him. dave remained a free man, something that made his own son conrad very nervous. >> my suspicion was growing stronger and stronger. >> conrad told police aut the night after he scovered his mom was missing and saw his dad sharing a bottle of wine with the girlfriend. >> opened it, toasted it and had ine on the pat with cheese and crackers. i didn't want to jump to conclusions but at the time i thought my father and girlfriend have really poor taste. >> conrad and dave spent that mmer on the outs. it wa after quite sometime of not getting along terribly well and in august 2006 two months after his mother's dispearance, chld protect services took 16-year-old conrad

to a foster home. >> there were just a few altercations we had like what my mom had gone through. >> investigators talked many times to dave's girlfriend mary and eventual this exchange occurred. >> has he ever brutalized you at all? >> absolutely. >> what did he say? >> nothing stops until [ bleep ] is dead. >> when did he say that? >> numerous times. >> an a-ha moment? maybe n quite. >> but -- >> are you serious? >> early on i thought, it's never going to stop until she's dead meaning going on his whole life. i never, nevern my life thought that he would kill her. never. >> so it all emed quite suspicious. in fact, most people in tn seemed to have made up their minds about dave hawk. but one of them was not the d.a. >> they kept pushing and pushing and we kept sitting back.

>> did the cops have it wrong? dave hawk's long-time pastor thought so. >> this person who portrayed as such a monster simply isn't. >> another side an accused killer when "the disappearance of debbie hawk" continues. ♪ ery time it's so right ♪ well, it feels so good [ female announcer ] new charmin ultra soft has an ultra-cushiony design that's soft and more absorbent. you can use four times less versus the leading value brand.

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they kept pushing and pushing and we kept sitting back. >> prosecutor larry crouch told his investigators he would not charge dave hawk with the murder of his ex-wife debbie, even after it was obvious this popular single mother had been murdered, even after months of searching around hanford, california, tued up no sign of her anywhere and after police convinced themselves that dave was responsible, prosecutor crouch would not budge. not yet anyway. >> we're going to wait until we find the body or give the body a more time to come up. >> instead, a year after debbie vanished, dave was charged with

embezzling, stealing more than $300,000 from his own children's trust fund. he pleaded not guilty, was released on bail. >> dave, how does it feel to be out of jail? >> and waited for the other shoe drop. >> now, imagine this. the police not to mention most of the town believed their father killedheir mother. leaving three childen caught in the middle. conrad had no doubt his dad killed his om, a dad he began referring to as dave. >> i tried to cut all ties that i had with him as much as i could. he was nothing to me now. >> but chelsa has been and is her father's staunchest defender. why do you think your siblings have chosen the other path? >> i think they're just very upset by what happenednd the relationship was not as close to my dad. they wer either not home or not awake when i was awake.

and ey were not around him the next day like i was around him. >> chelsa says dave was acting perfectly normal the day after whatever hpened happened. no odd behavior. nothing whatever to suggest he had en up all night committing a terrible crime. >> so, the things that convinced me about his innocence aren't here to convince them. i think they are defending my mom so much, though, that it's like they're going to point to the most obvious suspect. >> but chelsa isn't the only one in this small town who believes dave hawk is innocent. >> i believe what he says, that he had nothing to do with her disappearance and presumed death. >> sandy brown is dave's long-time pastor and friend. >> this person who's portrayed as such a monster just isn't. he's a man who's worked hard in the church. he is a good