[ applause ] >> you are great. thank you so much, sweetie. >> tomorrow, living alone and why so many of us like it that way. >> pastor t.d. jaxz is in the house. he's going to talk to us about forgiving. >> have a great day, everybody. >> see you tomorrow. >> i'm jim cramer and welcome to my world. >> you need to get in the game. >> firms are going to go out of business and he's nuts. they're nuts. they know nothing. >> i always like to say there's a bull market somewhere. >> "mad money," you can't afford to miss it. hey, i'm cramer. welcome to "mad money." welcome to cramerica. a lot of people want to make friends. i just want to save you a little money. my job is to educate you. call me at 100-743-cnbc. another fabulous quarter is about to be put in the can, augmented again by today's terrific, amazing trading with the dow roaring 160 points. s&p climbing 1.39%. the nasdaq vaulting 1.78%. another unheralded quarter championed by no one.

where are the champions, for heaven's sake? where are all of the people who are willing to call this market out for what it is? a dramatic break with what's happened for years in the country. a huge shift from long term bear into perhaps long term bull. we're riding the most robust bull i've seen in ages. yet, what did i hear today about this market? just today? what are people buzzing about? i heard a debate about the easy money the fed is making. let's say that is a bad thing? i think it's somewhat of an irrelevant thing. i heard stocks are going higher, but look out, so is oil. heavy handed government regulation, worries about increased taxes. and i've heard that stocks are ignoring one of the key pillars of the global economy.

portugal is most likely to default. you know the one thing i haven't heard? the truth. the american economy is getting better and the companies that sell into our economy are benefitting from said improvement. so let's take them one by one. who should be championing the market? first? there's the president of the united states. i think he's either not familiar with the progress and the success of stocks or that the highlight in the time of unemployment would be a huge mistake. he regards it as a way too lightly taxed rich man's paradise. it's almost as if the president doesn't know that 90 million americans participate in the stock market for saving. he could help clean it up. it isn't just about the way the banks have abused this country. memo to president obama. the dow is up 59% since you were sworn in. you're running for reelection.

do the math. take a victory lap. get behind this market. ben bernanke fixated on 1937. the intending cuts with money. he refuses to talk down which i think is frankly out of sync with what's happening. boots on the ground for me. i don't believe bernacke's easy money is behind this move, either. i actually believe that higher rates would benefit many. even the real state industry itself, which needs buyers to step off the sidelines and realize if they don't act soon they will lose these low rates which are more important in many ways than the price of what they're trying to buy. as for the brokerage houses, it's almost as if they're actually against this move.

here are some cheap stocks that you should buy. but other than some lukewarm recommendations, what is wall street's excuse? in fact, with the sole exception of apple, the most enthusiastic chatter i hear price target raising. and that's only because so many stocks have overrun targets which were set in the bear market which has scared the psyche of many, even as it apparently ended in 2011. oh, these price targets move up. these aren't endorsements. they are simply catch ups. and if i want heinz, i want dancing beans like sterling cooper recommended.

i keep this around with my colleague david faber or this morning on squawk on the street. he has a tremendous life of confidence. why else would this quarter, closing out now be so devoid of mergers and acquisitions if corporations truly have faith in future? the mode of corporations. be more confident. members of ceos. if you got this far, you deserve to be more confident. the common perception is these should be derailing the market. it has to end, doesn't it? here's the problem with that thesis. who cares? the fact is that the market is rallying in the face of these worries, which now, by the way, they've been with us for more than a thousand dow jones points. if you did nothing but focus on these concerns, you missed a gigantic rally. that is imprudence.

i call that an overabundance of caution. being too cautious is not necessarily a good thing. subtle here, the points to make money. instead of saying the market is stupidly going up in the face of these concerns, you have to ask yourself what would happen if these concerns were resolved in a positive way? what happens if oil goes down. what happens if the federal budget were better balanced? what happens if portugal gets fixed the way that spain and italy have been? that wasn't supposed to happen. if we were seeing small, narrow moves that are easily repealed on a weekly basis, moves that are predicated on rumors or some comment offhanded by a federal reserve governor. okay, that merits caution. but broad base moves that happen over multiple weeks or months, i'm calling that convincing.

first brokerage house to come out and say this is a real move, not like so many fake outs we have experienced before. do some buying. that's the one that's going to get the most business. the brokerage that says we are bullish about america. we want you in instead of the prattle will be the one. the politicians that embrace this market will be winners. the commentators who do positive things will emerge with the most credibility. the one who is talk about how i got best charting. they're not going to get you anywhere. and the skeptics, look. they're not being skeptical. they're just being scared. they aren't being prudent. they're being ignorant. here's the bottom line. chastising stocks in the name of caution is no virtue.

there are still plenty of stocks worth buying we're going to highlight to tonight. do not give up if you haven't gotten in. you'll get your chance. we're going to give you some. the mistake would be not to take it when it happens. let's go to j.r. in florida, please, j.r. >> caller: booyah, yeah, jim. >> that's spirited to start a new week. what's up? >> that's booyah in floridian. my wife leah says hi, jim. >> i say hi right back to her. caller: how do you feel about the home improvement? specifically lowe's. >> let's rank them here. i like tractor supply is number one. that stock got hit unfairly on friday. 52 week high. secondary, i like home depot. i like the cash management there and it's doing well without anybody saying anything good. and then third, i like lowe's, 52-week high. there's my hierarchy and you can go forward and use it. let's go to duncan, also in

florida. duncan? >> caller: hey, jim, i've got some wellpoint stock. i got in at 48 and i should have sold it when it hit 82. are we going to see 82 again? how do you think the supreme court is going to affect this? >> stephanie is the research director of my charitable trust. i came down and said i need know what the supremes are going to do. she said then we should hold it in banes. how about buying paychex? how about buying automatic data? won't those be good plays on growth and employment? i'm going to jim in california. jim. >> caller: i bought prudential financial as an ipo in late 2001. now, with the frequent acquisitions such as aig and their share buybacks, should i continue?

>> let's focus on the american pru which is not to do the aia. if rates go higher, the stock is going to go to 80. do not give up if you haven't gotten into this market yet. you're going to get your chance and i will help you. hey, i'm going to help you tonight with two stocks that i think not only is it not too late to buy, but it is right to buy. "mad money" will be right back. >> narrator: coming up, grand equity. jardin has soared over 30% so far this year. can it continue to serve up profits? cramer is talking to the ceo just ahead. >> narrator: and later, fully covered? insurance giant aig was at the epicenter of the financial crisis taking billions to stay afloat. they're now repaying ahead of schedule.

so with the dark days of 2008 behind them, are brighter days ahead? cramer's exclusive with aig's ceo is just ahead. all coming up on "mad money." do your lashes want volume or length? how about both? with covergirl lashblast fusion. a mascara for lashes that want it all, all at once. our biggest brush meets our fiberstretch formula

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here on "mad money," we like companies that treat their shareholders well. even by paying you dividend or buying back stock. now, my rule of thumb is a dividend is almost always superior to a buyback. it's a longer term commitment that puts money directly in your pocket. most buy backs are nothing more than misguided efforts to trade by clueless managements. but sometimes a monster buyback is just what the doctor ordered. dake jarden, a pastiche of more than a hundred consumer brands. we're showing you some including everything from coleman outdoor gear, rawlings baseball gloves.

margaritaville. jarden is big overseas now, as well as being a top dog in a host of niche categories. this is a terrific business with fabulous, consistent growth. even though jarden is up 34% year to date, it still trades at a measly 8.65 times forward earnings. that's why jarden announced the only share plan that i can get behind, a buyback that screams we're cheap as heck and we're not going to take it anymore. they decided to use it all at once with a big dutch auction tender off. when the auction was completed, two weeks ago, on march 5th, jarden bought back about 36 dollars a share.

and the stock hasn't looked back since. it's now a 52-week high. it's up about 18% since the last time we spoke with the ceo, a little more than a year ago. up 7% over that same period. let's check in with martin franklin, jarden's executive chairman. we always used to have him on as the ceo. that's his old job. find out more about his company and what's ahead. >> thank you, jim. >> good to see you. >> nice to see you again. >> let's cut right to the chase. in your most recent earnings call, while our stock prize has risen more than 1,000% over the last decade, we are disappointed that this increase has been driven by jarden's earnings per share growth. i have never heard a ceo address what i think is the primary thing that they should be addressing, which is how to get people to pay more for those earnings. how did you know to do this? >> well, look, there are a whole bunch of different variables you look at. so we felt that the buyback made

a statement. the fact that our company makes an enormous cash flow. and i don't think we get a lot of credit. >> and really big from 2010. >> yeah. and it's growing. i mean, we should generate over $450 million of cash operations this year. and we see just great cash flow going forward so we just felt this was the right time to do it. some analysts say this buyback has increased your earnings per share by 50 cents. the estimates today are up $4.05 this year. we feel comfortable with the estimates that are out there. that would imply you can get

that kind of appreciation. we felt this was the right way to drive some value for shareholders. >> all right. how are you able to manage 3% organic growth even though you have a lot of the wrong weather? first of all, diversification is a strength factor for the company. >> and this is, i think, over six quarters now of organic growth over in our 3-5% bandwidth on a trailing 12 month basis. so, you know, we're really reaping the benefits of the investments that we've been making year after year. we're now spending over a million dollars a day on what we call brand investment which is marketing and new product development. those investments turn into high price points and gains in market share.

>> give us an example of extensions because you've created a huge number of products that are major earnings drivers. give us an example of the technology and how it changed your products and why they may become more popular. >> first of all, in some of our businesses, we've taken businesses that had poor product development programs and really beefed them up. coleman would be a great example of that. we put coleman into the flashlight business. it wasn't in the flashlight business seven, eight years ago. we decided led was the future before anybody was doing led. today, i believe we're the second or third largest flashlight company in the united states. your favorite company, your favorite company, margaritaville. >> i've got a beach house there. >> there is being able to make a new product at a different time of the year that met a whole new market need. i'd say those were two pretty good examples.

>> technical apparel. >> yeah, we like technical apparel. we've been growing that business at, you know, double digits every year for the last three years. we're continuing on, i'd say we call it steroidal growth. >> i think it's worth focusing on. this could be a gigantic business. >> lowe's, home depot, you're seeing similarities in there? >> yeah. we sell brooms, mops, those kinds of floor care products in there, seeing good, healthy organic performance there. >> all right. i sense that people are feeling better.

>> america is relatively strong and we're feeling that across our business. >> there are always shorts in your stock. one of them said to me, oh, you're having the guy on. ask him why he sold any stock. >> shorts of future buys. but here is how i see it. the reality is, and this is all on public record, when we launched the ten to buy 500 million dollars worth of stock back, a 33 price, 30-33 was the range. management wasn't selling any shares. we were encouraged by our bankers to participate in it in order to encourage other shareholders to sell. we have a lot of owners giving us feedback. so we took one for the team and, you know, thanks to that, we got the response we wanted. >> one last question. my favorite season, baseball season, is about to start.

rawlings, how does it start? is this going to be a big season for you? >> we promote rawlings. we have good business with dick's and other retailers. one of the things that we see for how the market is doing for the economy and so is actually the mix of products that get bought in the rawlings line. it's kind of interesting. we're back to seeing dads buying, you know, better gloves for their kids and those kinds of things with selling more composite bats than we did in the leaner years. that's another good indicator for us. >> it just seems like everything is right. and i usually don't like companies that get rid of their dividend. >> thanks very much. >> that's martin franklin, executive chairman of jarden corporation. don't you wish all of your ceos were like this? thank you so much. good to see you again. stay with cramer. >> narrator: coming up, fully covered?

insurance giant aig was at the epicenter of the financial crisis, taking billions from the government to stay afloat. but they're now repaying that money ahead of schedule. with the dark days of 2008 behind them, are brighter days ahead? cramer's exclusive with aig's ceo is just ahead. and later, tweet week. cramer is kicking off "mad money"'s tweet week tonight. taking your questions as long as there's 140 characters or fewer, go on. tweet them to @jimcramer #madtweets. stay tuned. all coming up on "mad money." it makes for one, lousy day. but when you're alert and energetic... that's different. you're more with it, sharper, getting stuff done.

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>> let's talk about the greatest -- the most improbable comeback story i've ever seen in all of my years as an investor. let's talk about american international group, aig. when aig collapsed two years ago and then went onto be propped up by bailout after bailout and the fed ultimately committing $182 billion to keep this insurance company on life support, hardly anybody imagined that aig would be able to get this company back on its feet. but that's exactly what happened. this turnaround is a testament to the power of good management. after years of being so-so managed, aig turned the corner in august of 2009 when

previously the head of met life, one of the most trusted execs in the insurance business took over as ceo. ever since he came on cnbc right after 9/11 and said he would pay out all of met life death benefits immediately, no one else was saying a word. i'm not surprised that under his leadership aig has gone from being a really impossible to understand financial company to a leaner, meaner more focused firm. he reorganized the business. working, going concern. he kept aig as a strong, working, going concern. now, aig is in a position to take share all over the place. when you pay your premiums to an insurance company like aig, they invest that money. sometimes to equities until the time comes when they need to pay out claims. aig has been paying the government back ahead of schedule. the treasury department has recovered $4.6 billion of its investment in aig.

hey, last week, last thursday, the government now in 70% of aig down from 92% in january, it seems possible that taxpayers could wind up breaking even and maybe even making money. that's why i'm thrilled to have the president and ceo of american international group here with us tonight to talk about the company's incredible comeback. yes, in person. welcome to "mad money." >> thank you, jim, good to be with you. >> great to see you. >> this is a great story. >> and it looks like this company had a huge number of assets. it was undermanaged. this aig is an aig that has a lot of earnings power. >> particularly, we have a franchise that's intact. we've got the assets, people and reputation. >> everyone wrote this company off.

you're not supposed to be in business. >> well, i must tell you that hank greenberg left behind a strong company. that's a fact. you can say a lot of things about hank that was a strong company. i had the advantage of strong businesses. i had the advantage of great people. so when you take people and you give them the freedom to act, and they choose to act responsibly, they can fix anything in this country. this is a testament around the world that made this happen. >> but there was a division, a financial products division, that was unfathomable, that had a gigantic amount of risk. that had to be unwound and unwound successfully. >> we absolutely had to do that. but we had to do it the right way. when i got there, had we followed the plan that was required at that point in time, we probably would have lost $10-20 billion. what this team did at financial products, which i thought was

unfair, that people who didn't cause the problem, remember, out of 44,000 trades, only 121 went bad. out of 44,000. and those people were long gone. long gone. these people stayed. they worked hard. they were professional. instead of spending $10-20 billion, by the time we unwound most of it, we made $4 billion. >> well, a lot of the research is about break up value. now, i understand that because you've been selling off things. but a lot of your divisions are at a substantial discount to book value, if you trued up everything to what i think you're going to do the, the break up value is way too low. what am i missing? >> look, the fact is, jim, you understand this this is about not having big peaks and not having deep valleys.

this is about having broad, diversified businesses so that if the pnc business is having difficulty, you can rely on retirement and savings business or the mortgage insurance business. so we want diversified risks so that we're not overconcentrated and that gives us, i believe, a better rating over time. >> now, you've got a terrific property casualty, international dominant. you have that great sun life. but you have a united guarantee which is mortgage insurance. >> we have really designed that business. but in the past, we had terrible underwriting. >> now, the government still owns a huge position of the company. you're generating a lot of cash. there's some people talking

about doing an ipo of your lease finance and then continue to pay the government back. or is it over time? or is the goal here just to take down some money and just buy a huge chunk back and get the government out of the picture? >> we want to do what's smart for the shareholder. no more question are we going to get money back from aig. we want to show the taxpayer gets back all of their money plus a profit. >> you think there's going to be a profit here? >> $5-10 billion. >> everything else you've done is right on. i don't see why i should doubt that. five or 10 billion, you're going to make for the american people. >> all over, the american people between the fed and the u.s.

treasury, they'll make between $5-10 billion profit when this is all done. all of their interest and all of these their fees and everything else. >> deutsche bank meeting with management just met. they're talking about a dramatic share from down to 1.79 to say 1.2 billion shares. that would be remarkable. is that the government's stock coming out? how is that going to happen? if you just continue to buy back over time, you can't shrink it in 2012 like that. >> well, we paid down the spv, special purpose vehicle. let's be clear. we paid $8.4 billion in march plus the $6 billion which the treasury raised. so the fact is we've paid the government back almost $15 billion in one month. that frees up collateral. so we have the aia shares are now free. >> they might release that lock up. >> if the fed decides to sell

off made lane three, like it did made lane two, that comes to us. that's 15. we have the aircraft leasing company we'd like to take public. and then you get over 22 billion and the special purpose vehicle we just paid a billion and a half for has a billion and a half in it in cash, that's from the sale to met life that we're waiting for the escrow period to expire. so, all together, that $23 billion, what deutsche is saying, well, wait a minute. that doesn't include our dividends. it doesn't include our earnings and everything else. we said we could do between $25 and $35 billion between now and 2015. we're way ahead of schedule. what we've just done now in march, we have an awful lot of capacity to buy back shares. my assumption will be we're buying back those shares from the u.s. treasury.

>> now, this is a company that some would say is still too unwieldy. so not everything should be under the aig roof. >> that's correct. we think -- we've seen businesses that come together that make sense. so, for example, if you're selling personal items, i just came back from south america, we have great franchises there. in addition to selling auto, they'd like to sell life insurance. there's a need, as you talk to a consumer, they would like to deal with one company, if they can. so you're going to the expense of the direct market, hey, jim, would you like to buy auto insurance? and if you're killed in an accident, would you like life insurance? that's where it comes together. >> so this is the aig that you want? >> absolutely.

absolutely. i think there are businesses we shouldn't have been in that are too complicated. i think we've just got to be in businesses that come together, make sense and it's a corporation that can be managed. look, hank and i debate this all of the time. >> you talk to hank? >> i do. he's a marvelous guy. i said hank, this business is too big. i said maybe for you it's not too big. for anybody else to try to manage this business from aircraft leasing to rail cars to life insurance to pnc, worldwide, it's a very complicated business. now we're down to a size which is manageable. >> when are you done? >> well, i'll tell you what, my treatment for cancer is working. right now, i want to stay active. i'm enjoying myself. the doctors say i'm doing okay.

i want to just stay here and continue to be successful as long as aig wants me to stay on. this company is made up of incredible people. i'm not in a hurry to retire again. >> i'm so glad about your health. coming up, tweet week. tweet them to @jimcramer and stay tuned. stay tuned.

>> it is time for the lightning round. say things like buy, buy, buy or sell, sell, sell. and then, the lightning round is over. let's start with ruth in jersey.

>> caller: hi, jim. my stock is rio tinto. the letters are rio. >> i've got to tell you, ruth, i think that's not as cheap as vale, symbol v-a-l-e. let's go to chad in kentucky, chad. >> caller: give you a big booyah from kentucky, jim. >> nice, nice. what's going on? got you to go all the way. you are lucky to have exact target because scott dorcy is one unbelievable ceo. that can actually be held and bought. et can be bought. i've done more work on it. i know it came public right around here. let's go to casey in new york. >> caller: jim-bo, big booyah from the big apple. how are you? i'm doing great.

my company is vernetix, ticker vhc. jim, these guys won a case against microsoft. they just got a favorable ruling. where do we go from here? >> i think it's a terrific spec. i've got to tell you that. microsoft was really amazing. this is one of the best performing stocks since we started the show. and i'm going to bless it. now, it's had a big move. let's not forget that. but with options, deep in the money options out, six, seven months, i think you're going to be okay. let's go to elena in tennessee. >> caller: big orange booyah from the volunteer state. >> sweet. what's up? >> caller: well, as a first-time caller, i want to say thank you for sharing your knowledge with the everyman. and i wanted to ask you opinion on cummins inc. >> this is what i call the china on play. it's a worldwide company. they would be buying it. i missed the last 20 points. i regret that. but i do believe in cummins. let's go to brad in new jersey.

>> caller: how are you doing, jim? i watch you every night before i go to sleep. my stock is jdsu. >> it was a very good quarter. the last quarter is a very good quarter. but that said, it is optical and i don't want to touch optical. so i'm going to say don't buy. let's go to santino in new york. santino? >> caller: hey, jim, niagara falls, new york, b-b-b booyah. i just have a question about when do you think the future holds for sro frontline? >> here's the problem with fro. i've got nordic america tanker. i do think day rates are going to say stay up. i say no. i'm pro-natty. let's go to tom in california. >> caller: hey, jim, booyah to you from southern california. >> good to have you on the show. >> thanks for taking my call. my stock is aalp. >> well, we nailed this thing nine ways to sunday. it's got an unbelievable performance. it's part of the newsletter i am affiliated with obviously.

this stock can go higher than we had to sell company. it's really a cell phone company that rang the bell today. i want you to swap out of that one with that yield and continue to be in a-l-l-o-t. i think that that stock remains a strong buy. 52-week high and going higher. and that, ladies and gentlemen, is the conclusion of the lightning round. >> the lightning round is sponsored by td amertrade. this italian b.m.t. is amazing.

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welcome to tweet week here on "mad money."

all this week, i'm going to be responding to your questions sent via twitter on the show. so tweet me @jimcramer, hash tag mad money. that's my handle. what a crush i've had on that one. each day, we'll take one tweet and give it the answer it truly deserves. totally neglecting the 140 character limit. and you have the added bonus of appearing on twicker. it makes fun of me that's showing your tweets. i've been so pleased, so far, instead of focusing on one tweet today, i'm going to hammer out a few of your great messages on day one. >> this is going to trade off of home building in america. liz, one of the things that bothers me, the japanese aren't rebuilding. i think a lot of that is going to turn out because they can't

rebuild there. i think that area is heavily radiated. so, therefore, the reconstruction of japan has held wy back. own it for american comeback. i think that's the real story. okay, listen to me, john. you have your whole life ahead of you. what kind of stock should you be buying? i want you to be in speculative stocks. if they fail, you can take all of your earnings power out of multiple years and reinvest. this is when you can risk it. you've got the rest of your life to make the money back. here's somebody called debear's mommy. looking for some guidance on ford. people i know or have drive them and love them.

not if you still have costs that are too high. not if people can continue to use the same old cars. so while i like ford and i think it's the best in the auto plays, understand, ford has real problems in europe. i cannot tell you that's the best way to play the bull market. all right, keep them coming, cramerica. tweet me @jimcramer hash tag mad tweets and get in on the action all this week. "mad money" is back after the break. [ male announcer ] we asked real people if they'd help us with an experiment for febreze fabric refresher, they agreed. [ experimenter 1 ] relax, take some nice deep breaths.

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hey, was i rude today? because of a glitch in the software? was that rude? this morning's squawk on the street, i grilled joe rhadigan. that was company benefits mom and pop investors. i think rapid trading is profoundly detrimental to you, to the individual investor's confidence in the system. the fact that it had to cancel its ipo because it couldn't get its own system to work is a huge blow against that confidence as well as incredibly ironic and downright ludicrous. any system that allows the first trade to be at 16 and then the next trade to be at pennies, that's not a system i want to trust with my life savings.

it reminds them of the horrendous flash crash where stocks went down huge because of another software glitch. all of this is bad enough. but, what really gets under my skin is how everyone claims to be helping you. the ceo came out with usual liquidity blather about how his company is good for the little guy. he mentioned the time-honored narrowing of spreads between prices as something that hens his company. and his company brings a bow, pardon me. i think that's bogus. first, the prices were going to get smaller anyway because the decision by exchange is to switch to decimal trading. second, i mean, the pennies thing.

second, by then, putting out bids and pulling bids in a lightning quick fashion like them actually end up sucking out the liquidity. for example, the whole high frequency complex enabled others like it to make it nuts for a small guy to ever put in a stop loss order that isn't a limit stop loss. they just kill you time and again. you put in a normal stop loss, the increased speed means you'll end up selling well below the cost. might as well call them start losses. hey, that's fine. i get that. finally, the successive company and the failure to trade apple correctly, two sides of the same coin. they symbolize how the sec has lost regulatory control of the whole trading process. the government has allowed the regular investor to be sacrificed on the altar of speed. our government needs to think about leveling the playing

field. it needs to accept the mandate of helping the little guy. once again, without that mandate, every individual investor is at the mercy of the world. why can't the regulators see that? beats the heck out of me. but stay with cramer. than i do. when i don't feel like working out. when there isn't enough of me to go around. ♪ when i have school. and work. every morning. it's faster and easier than coffee. every afternoon when that 2:30 feeling hits. -every day. -every day. every day is a 5-hour energy day. [ male announcer ] 5-hour energy. every day. four delizioso subs, featuring the molto bono chicken parmesan.

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>> look, to say that i was blown away by bob's analysis from aig and what he can do is an understatement. that was an incredible interview. very rarely do i just tell you go back over that interview. he is telling you things that are directly contrary to what a lot of people feel that are much more positive than what a lot of people feel. that means this stock is going higher. perhaps dramatically higher. so stop worrying about the government overhang. i think that you heard -- and if you read ben