>> this is "the chris matthews show." >> ask not what your country c do for you. >> i can hear you! >> a time for change has come. chris: a new inside report shows the secrecy that shrouded the killing of bin laden, it shows the president overriding the vice president, his defense chief and topitary adviser in a command decision that spelled victory. when obama took office, bin laden's trail had grown cold. the bush team had lost the matorabora. is that why some are trying to knock obama's success? and finally, dance with the one that bring ya, mitt romney won

the nomination by appeasing the republican right would he change if elected, could he? i'm chris matthews, welcome to the show. with us today, rick stengel with the bbc's katty kay, the "new york time's" helene cooper and "the washington post's" david ignatius. on the first anniversary of the killin of bin laden, rick stgel's "time" magazine has a report showing how risky president obama's decision was. we learn that only five or six people were iluded for nine months. many people you would expect to know did not and were not included and we learned that the president went against advice of defense secretary bob gates, joint chiefs vice chairman jim cartwright and vice president biden, fearing the huge risk of sending in boots from the ground,referring an air strike but the president chose the riskiest option. rick, w he disagree with joe biden, bob gates and general

cartwright? >> he took a high risk but high rewards strategy. one of the things that was written, if they used drones or missiles, they would never have known whether they got osama bin laden and they didn't expect the pakistanis to tell them, either. at the core of what president obama wanted to do, he wanted to get credit. chris: so he was willing to take the risk of taking extra time. >> yes, and one of the things graham wrote about in the piece and in the longer version you didn't see is that obama may have slowed the clock too much. he took some risk in actually taking six, seven, eight months to act on that because it could veeaked. chris: you covered this, why did the president decide to go for the men-on-the-ground strategy? >> he took th advice ofeon patta and at the time, panetta was head of the c.i.a. the c.i.a., for years, had been after bin laden, they had taken a lot of heat. and for them, this was now their

moment. this was something that panetta really pushed and obama, in the end,ecided to go with. risky was it, david? >> one of the smart things the president did here was to say we need to go for the way that's high risk, high return, but we need to protect ourselves with backup helicopters and troops in case we get in a fire fight so they had them there and were ready. one thing this shows me is that this president, however awkward he sometimes seems in publ, in side of his job, in private, in secret, he is a very decisive, tough man, and somehow he's going to try to tell the count thatn this campaign we're about to enter. chris: a few republicans are observinghe bin laden anniversary by going back over old ground. liz cheney and john bolton. >> the audacity of audacity, to the extent that there have been foreign policy successes on this president's watch, they're built on policies of the last administration. >> the only thing that barack

obama did in connection with killing osama bin laden is get out of the way. you can say that bin laden was killed while obama was president, that's certainly true. but he was not killed because obama was predent. chris: this is one of those times that journalists, when you have to hear both sides of the story, even whe one side doesn't square with reality. what do you make of the people downplaying the president's success there? >> when you read through what "time" magazine has come up with, it's clear that what john bolton says is patently wrong. the president went through all the information, was given four different scenarios for going after bin laden, spent six months getting as many details as he could and he made the final decision so he was intimate iolved with t operation to get bin laden and i don't think that t republicans will manage to persuade the country at large that this was not obama's victory. they just seem to be on a losing wicket when it comes to having

some strong foreign policy to what the president did. chris: i know they lost the last trail they had on the guy, in tora bora, somewhere in the mountains 10 years ago. we put to the matthews meter, 12 of our regulars. will the bin laden raid inoculate president obama against campaign charges he's week on foreign policy? 10 say yes, two say no. helene and katty, you both voted with yes. yourense on the rublicans, those two we just hrd from are probably the unusual people that step wouldroblyout this. saivet to him, rht? >> i think mitt romney has, in the past couple of months, indicated he would like to take president obama on national security issues but i think it's going to be a problem for him because that is somewhere where president obama is very,ery strong. wh you look across the board just with fding and killings not osama bin laden. there's a whole host of issues where the republican are going

to have tub, particully romney will have trouble going after president obama, when you look at iran policy, for instance, everything that mitt romn says that we be doin obama -- president obama is already doing and when you look at afghanistan, for instance, where romney -- romney has criticized president obama for talking -- not listening to the generals, what exactly does that mn? does he really want to b caaigning to the american people who are so tired of 10 years of war and saying we should stay there longer? i don't think so. >> maybe that the romney campaign is looking at some of the attacks they've already mounted on president obama on iran, for example, and they've seen the needle shift he polls, that aually it's one of the few areas where voters say they trust the republicans a ttle bit more than they do am but when it comes to fighting terrorism, the numbers are so strongly in favor of the white house a the moment. chris: you have something on that. >> the one theme to look for, chris, is the idea that this was

mano a mano, osama bin laden versus barack obama. we know from documents that i've read that were taken from his cache that up until the day he died, bin laden was trying to kill obama specifically, because he saw obama as a special threat. so here's obama trying to kill bin den, bin laden trying to kill obama, and look who won. and i think you're going to hear that theme in this campaign. chris: special threat. you've really got me intrigued. >> because -- bin laden thought that obama had turned tables on him, that he stopped calling it the war on terror, he changed the branding of this fight and al qaeda felt very much on the back slide and vice president biden was unprepared so he wanted to take out obama so that biden would be president and he said it would be a disaster for america. you can be sure the white house will play that theme. >> if the campaign was in the arab world, i thi you're right

about that, but the campaign is here. my theory is that democrats can only lose on foreign policy, they can't win on foreign policy. obama, in a way, has inoculated himself on this but nobody votes for a democrat based on what they do in foreign policy. they vote based on the economy. and it's the reverse with republicans. bush, his approval ratings were incredibly high because of the war effort and he lost it. with obama, this is just inoculating him, it won't get him elected. ch you had something else about this legacy. nobody likes to say bin laden accomplished anything but when he struck us at 9/11 and we struck back hard, first with afghanistan and later for other reasons with iraq and the whole war on terrorism, what was the plus in that for the al qaeda crowd? >> chris, in this year since bin laden's death, it's been clear that his terrorist jihad through al qaeda is really unpopular. that failed.

he felt, in his last year, that it was failing. he was right, it was failing. but the ideas ofurging the muslim world of all this western influence, of getting rid of thea, postate leaders le hosni mubarak in egypt and assad in syria, those things are happening. after bin laden's death, although the movement al qaeda is much weaker, we shouldn't declare victory. a lot of these ideas are even stronger now than they are. chris: is he closer to the cow fate? >> he's not closer, but people with the same roots in islam theology, those people are now moving into positions of power across the arab world. chris: let me ask you about everybody, our own president and how he handled this. he handled it with a small group five or six people, close rc with pluses and minuses. secrecy. is that a good thing to do? >> it's a high risk strategy but the risk of something leaking is

worse tha the alternative. >> in the instance of this,t was a good thing because the leak was -- chris: goodole model? >> i don't like it as a reporter but i suppose. >> good way to assassinate a terrorist enemy, not a good way to govern a province. chell said. tight a circle. before we bre, esident obama's appearance at this weekend' correspondents dinner here in washingto honors a tradition dating back to coige. presidents agree to spend the evening with reporters but not all that enthusiastically. >> we have so many people who have written about us and broadcast about us all together in one room like this and i thought you might like to say a few nice words to them. they're all from the press and radio and television. maybe just a friendly little greeting would do.

how about just a word or two, something friendly, even one kind word? >> i'm thinking. i'm thinking. >> i had the secret service come over here this afternoon and do that usual security sweep before a presidential visit. the place was clean. no blackly. seriously, i address you as serious journalists, if i might take the liberty of exaggerating here. >> you hold me to impossible standards. i am not doing so bad. at this point in his administration, william henry harrison had been dead 68 days. >> bush 43 ca armed with a double. >> here i am, another one of these dang press dinners, could be home asleep, little barney curled up at my feet.

but, no, i got to pretend i like being here. as you know, i always look forward to these dinners, it's just a bunch of media types, hollywood liberals, democrats like joe biden. how come i can't have dinner with the 36% of the people who ke me. was actually steve bridges. boy, did he do a great job on bush. also on obama, the same guy. when we return, what is all this about mitt romney reverng to moderate roots if he won? where's the evidence he would split from the far right who brung him to the white house? scoops and predictions from the note books of the reporters.

[captioning made possible by nbc universal] chris: welcome back, there's a mini debate among democrats abt the president's best attack on mitt romney. one side says, play romneas a flip-flopper. they look at polls like this from nbc last week. only 18% of all-important independent voters say they view mitt romney as more consistent than barack obama. but other democrats say forget the flip-flopping and go with this. >> i've fought against long odds in a deep blue state but i was a severely conservative republican governor. chris: wow. helene, you wrote in your piece, you quote obama, as saying "romney is the most conrvative nominee since barry goldwater." so which way is the smart way to go, go after him as a conservative, or someone who is flip-fppinground and might end up in theenter? >>hey'rerying to have i both ways but at the moment they say they're now shifting to romney as a right wing extremist.

the republican party definely the tea party and all that has moved to the right and the belief in the obama cp is that public for all the right that the republica pty has moved to, the american public is not that conservative. we're still pretty much -- americans are very much in the middle a are going after voters.ent when you're looking at fights over places like florida and the battlegrounds in the western states like colora, where the democric belief is that romney has gone so far to the right that he's alienated the core voti population, the hispanic voters, that's where the logic of the strategy comes from. ris: is there too much opportunity to tag with the right wing? >> the thing i want torae is the etcha sketch le that the romney adviser used. he said when the primaries are over, it's an etcha sketch, you start over. he's exactly right. romney will set the table again

and always campaign on the fact that he's been consistent about which is that i can fix the american economy. chris: i don't think the democrats have a better opportunity of nailing him with the righting positio? >> fact that he is a flip-flopper, that's like saying i change my mind when circumstances change. chris: that makes theasi think for not doing it. don't make him a flip-flopper because middle of the roaders will say i'm a flip-flopper, the actual voter. >> what matters to the election more, the 4% to 6% in the middle or the conrvative base? it's the people in the mdle. so you gofter them by saying, mitt romney's positions that he took in the bruising primary campaign whe he w dragged so far to the right just not comfortable positions for you and in particular with hispanics. i think that's the real key to romney's problem and he was so far on the right with the hispanic voters that it's an easy argument. chris: hold out the example of john boehner who looks like a middle-of the road rublican but he's hog tied by his base,

forced to go right on everything. >> let them take the severely conservative lines from the primary campaign and as romney to adjust, tries to be more moderate and centrist, then you can call him a flip-flopper. you really do have it both ways. ♪ [ male announcer ] for our families... our neighbors... and our communities... america's beverage companies have created a wide range of new choices. developing smaller portion sizes and more low- & no-calorie beverages... adding clear calorie labels so you know exactly what you're choosing... and in schools, replacing full-calorie soft drinks with lower-calorie options. with more choices and fewer calories, america's beverage companies are delivering.

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chris: ridiculous, telme something i don't know. >> this is piggybacking on the last discussion. two words we'll hear the a lot in the presidential campaign, cayman islands against mitt romney because that makes people feel like, why is he doing this thing? he is reallynnected. chris: why is he sending his money overseas? has he got something big to de? >> i don't know but it's soting with voters. katty? >> one word you're not going to hear very much is europe, but rearing its ugly head again. the government in netherlands fell, the government in france it's about to fall, spain went back into recession. the white house hoped the oblem went away but it looks

like it cou cause problems in november. chris: and the u.k. is in its second dip. helene, you had a personal story in the front page of the "new york times" this frida >> i wrote about -- this was ter the conviction on thursday of charles taylor, former president of liberia, of war crimesn the hague. he was convicted o w crimes in sierra leone, though, interestingly enough and i waed to point out that before he did any of the atrocities he committed in sierra leone, ivory started outinea, he in liberia where what he did there was really, really horrib. chris: and your family story is all here in your book, what a beach."ouse at sugar there it is. tell us about the book. >> t book is about sort of my decision -- mymoved here in 1980 after there was a military coup in liberia and it took me 23 years after we ran away for me to finally get up the nerve and the courage to go back hom and find the sister that we left behind.

so it's sort of a history of liberia, which was founded by freed slaves who set up an antebellum society which led to the military coupha overturned that social order but it's also very much a coming of age story, finally confrting my own past and looking at where my family -- my family'ole in lot of what happened in liberia. chris: you became the a section reporter for the "new york time" >> and got to sit on "the chris matthews show." >> i hate to follow my friend, lene, with mere news, but the white house is signaling that a deal with iran over the nuclear issue may be possible and more interesting, iran is signaling the same thing. chris: how soo >> a deal may be possible. the next negotiating session is may 23. it probably won't get wrapped up then. if it happens, it's this summer. chris: great news. when we return, the question of the week for us, has hillary clinton signaled she's running

in 2016? we'll start out, starting w rick stengel. like,

but if you really want to make an impact, vote. then, what matters to you and the people you care about will really count. you'll want to vote the more you know.

chris: welcome back. the "time" magazine 100 dinner this week in new york city, hillary clinton gave a key note about her years as secretary of state. her thoughts about her future january and then she joked. >> thank you very much. [applause] >> welcome to my announcement to run for president of malta. chris: which brings us to this week's big question, was that moment an opening salvo in what's to come fo 2 no. and the reason why, you didn't see in all the clips, i introduc the secretary of state and i had the good fortune of traveli wither year to paktan, afgnitan, and malta was one of the countries and i said wherever she goes, she does press conferences, she doesown halls, she could get elected president in any country that she visited. that was almost the last g i said about her and she said, welcome to my camign.

chris: i've never hrd anyone in my life working in politics tease about running for president tt esn't evtulyun >> if you were going to announce that you were going to run for president, that would be the place to do it. chris: signicance? >> i think whatever she makes, she's not going to make itnt she's rested and cooled down from this last four years. she has been traveling a lot. chris: one of the "time" reporters from the "neyork times," is there any news out there about what she might be doing in terms of the future? >> clearly not the world bank. i don't know. i don't know. i think it's -- i think she's going to take time to wind down first because i think her schedule has been insane. she's eno ke a bazillion countries. chris: so the headline is, still in the dark. david ignatius? >> t consensus in washington is she has shot the lights out as secretary of state. she's been a really good secretary of state, especially the last two years and i think

everybody expects her to run a strong campaign for president i 2016. chris: well said. thanks for a great roundtable, rick stengel, katty kay, helene cooper and david ignatius. that's the show.