russia probe. president trump revokes the security clearance of former cia chief john brennan. >> mr. brennan has a history hat calls into question his objectivity and credibility.te >> and threans to do the same to other former officials who have criticized him. >> security clearances for those who still mhave them may be revoked. >> i think bruce ohr is a disgrace. i suspect i will be taking it away quickly. >> brennan reacts. >> i think this is an egregious act that flies in the face of traditional practice as well as common sense as well as national security. >> says mr. trump is abusing the power of his office. >> he is drunk on power. he really is.

>> and calls the president's move an attempt to a scare silence others who mht dare to challenge. my guests, the man at the center of the controversy, john brennan. plus, late word thatt presid trump's white house counsel don mcgahn has been cooperating extensively with robert mueller's rus a investigation. one prosecutor calls this like having keys to the kingdom. i'll talk to president trump's current lawyer rudy giuliani. joining me for insight and analysis are "washington post" columnist eugene robinson, nbc news political reporter carole lee, hugh hewitt, host on the salem radio network, andnd yamie al white house correspondent for the pbs news hour. welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." >> announcer: from nbc news in washington, the longest running show in television history, this is "meet the press" with chuck todd. good sunday morning. no ordinary august. we have a big show. john brennan and rudy giuliani. we are going to get to both of

them in a moment. it was almost a half century ago we learned of president richard nixon's enemy list, peoplelike daniel shore, congressman john conyers, even actor paul newman. it grew over time. thhn white house counsel j dean wrote in a white house memo that administration soughto use incumbency to deal with the opponents. stated, dean wrote this white house memo before he turned, how we can use the available federalmachinery to screw our political opponent e dean of courntually testified against his president. the nixon watergate era st gained renewed relevance this year. heo threatened t do more to the highest profile critics. yesterday we learned that president trump's white housedo counse mcgahn has been cooperating fully with robert mueller's investigation. that was, of course, the president's legal strategy at

one time. not anymor toomplete the watergate circle, yesterdn circle john deeted mcgahn is doing right. friday night "the washington post" reported the white house has already drafted documents to punish mr. trump's opponents that we listed above andhat white house officials have discussed timing the release of the documents, quote, as a distraction during an favorable news cycles. that certainly seemed to be the goal this week as the white house n oke the brenws at the height of one of those, quote, unfavorable news cycles. >> they should be looking at all these fbi guys whoan got fire demoted. it's a really -- it not us. >> president trump reportedly rious about the nonstop coverage of omarosa manigault newman. >> what . nixon -- i mean mr. trump does will be brought to light. ried to change the subject,th testing waters on how far he can go to personally intvene in the russia investigation and to punish his critics.

>> i like taking envoys -- on voices like that. >> wednesday mr. trump told "t e wall strurnal" he stripped john brennan's clearance because of the investigation. quote, i call it the rigged wuch hunt. it is a shes. and people let it. so i think it's something that had to be done. >> thisis an egregious act that flies ine the f of traditional practice as well as common sense as well as national security. >> now with his former campaign chairman on trialor bank and tax fraud, the president is threatening to do the same to s,nine other critic including a current member of his justice department. > i think bruce ohr is a disgrace i suspect i'll be taking it away very quickly. >> by targeting o hr he is attacking a mid-level civil servant who needs aleance to do his job and is prohibited back.ighting the intelligence community is firing back. after brennan's clearance was om

revoked, thender of the raid that killed osama bin laden, retired admiral william mcraven, criticized the president'sar my-era tactics. nearly 75 former intelligence officials havehod support for brennan called mr. trump's action an attempt to stifle free a handful of republicans on capitol hill have criticized thn presidt's tactics. >> i thought it was kind o a banana republic kind of thing. >> most have defended the tactics. >> mr. brennan has gone way over the line in my view and i think restriing his clearance, pulling his clearance makes sense to me. >> it was about time that he did take away that. >> i thinkauld him a butt meant it. >> mr. trump's attacks on theju ice department and intelligence community are only escalating. now some officials worry that special counsel robert mueller and his team could be next. >> what the president is doing, in part, is sendg a menacing signal to the prosecutors and

the investigators on theam muelr hat if they continue their investigation, that their security clearance, which they need in order to b, their is put in jeopardy. >> and joining me now is their formertor of the cia, john brennan. national an nbc news security and intelligence analyst. former director brennan, welcome back to meteorologist, sir. >> thank you, chuck. something.tart with the president himself said about how this punishment is not about silencing you. it's about something else. take a listen and i want to get your reaction. >> there is no silence. if anything, i am giving him a bigger voice. many people don't even know who hew is. has a bigger voice, and that's okay with me because i like taking envoys like that. >> that's the president confirming he ay wanted to elevate you and make you -- is that what you blieve he was doing? that's what he said there. wanted to elevate you, make you more famous and essentially make

this a one-on-one with you. is that how you read this? >> it's hard for me t read mr. trump in terms of the actions taking. but think it was a clear signal to others who still have their security earances, both in the government as well as outside, that if you cross him, if you speout against him, he is going to use whatever tools he might have at his disposal to so i think this is yet another example of his egregious abuse of power and authority. just because he has the ability to revoke one's clearance doesn't meane is doingit for the appropriate reasons. indeed, he violated the that he himself, his administration, put out last year in terms ofs the ba for revoking security clearances. so i think it was just designed to distract the press from some of ter things going on last week. >> there were nine other people that sarah sandersndated could be in danger of losing

aveir clearance. i know you don'ta video monitor, but james clapper, comey, who doesn't have one, mic'd hayden, sally yates, andrew mccabe, peter strzok, why nge those the ten people they are signa out? >> because they have been critical of him or because he wants to use them as examples of the deep state or those that are trying to hurt him. in the case of bruce ohr, a current department of justice official, i think that is oneof the most outrageous steps that he could take to revoke the clearances o a current government official simply because he doesn't like either them or their spouse in terms of what they might have done. that is so antithetical to what has been the practice and th tradition and what needs to continue to be the basis for thn ng of the revoking of security clearances so you trust people with those secrets.

>> i'm curiays. on fr night with rachel maddow you indicated that you have had lawyersontact you about possible legal action. it's 48 hours later. what would that look like? is that something you're serious about? >> well, iave beencontacted by a number of lawyers and they have already given me their thoughts about the basis for a complaint, an injunction to try to prevent him from doing this in the future. if my clearances and my reputation'm as being pulled through the mud now, it if that's the price prevent donald trump from doing this to other people, to me it's a small price to pay. i am going to do whatever i can personnelly to try to preveb thesees in the future. if it means going to court, i will do that. >> you have been more outspokenr than any for official. it may be why many republican legislators believe your comments have been over the top. do you regret accusing the

president of treason? do you regret some of the things you have said? >> icalled his behaviorso treanous. i stand very much by that claim. >>ou are the former cia director accusing the sitting president of the united states. it's not a private citizen. a lot of people here, the former cia director accusing the sitting president of the united states of treason, that's a monumental accusation. >> well, i tnk these are abnormal times and i think a lot of people have spoken out against what mr. trump has done and maybe it's my training as an intelligence professional. i have seen the lights blinking d in terms of what mr. trump has done and is doing and is bringing this country down on the global stage and fueling and feeding divisivens in our country. he continually lies to the american people. the type of things he is doing, i need tope out. i don't believe i'm being political at all. i am not a republican.

am not a democrat. and many members of the congress over theho years have security clearances have spoken out rather forcefully against whoever was in the oval office if they weren't from the same political party. knew they are telling me i shouldn't do that. >> i want to give you a chance to rpond to richard burr. he said if directorbrennan' statement is based on intelligence he received while still leading the cia, why he n't he include in community assessment released? 2017? if his statement isbased on intelligence he has seen since itutes aoffice, it con breach. if his statement is purely political and based on conjecidre, the prt has full authority to revoke his security clearance. it seems as if senator burr is saying have you said in the public sphere tha has gone beyond the facts that you know? >> i like andespect senator

burr. i was disappointed by his statement. i wonder whether or not he rad op-ed. i have told the committees, including his committee, everything that i know from my time as cia director and the cia hare s with the senate and the house intelligence committee everything that we what i said in my op-ed is that i have some to understand, cause of a free and open press here in the united states, what actually was transpiring during that presidential election campaign season. in terms of meetings at trump wer and also the fact that donald trump when he was the presidential candidate of the republican party, when he called publicly on the russians to find didn't s emails, i realize when i was cia director it was that very night that russian intelligence went after her emails. i made a point in the op-ed collusion means cooperating in some form. conspiracy is something else. i think all americans need to wait for robert mueller to be able to finalize his investigation and to determine

whether or not there was any criminal activity that was taking place the. i have spoken out against mr. trump's lack of sissdecency, civility,ne y, and character. i will continue to do that because i have always revered the office of the presidency. i think mr. trump is letting millions of americans down. >> you were a sitting cia director a one point. if you worked for a president that didhis, what would you do in this situation? >> if i worked -- >> ifou were currently the head of the cia and the presidentth revokee security clearance of a former cia head, what would you do as sitting cia director under that circumstance? and what advice would you give to gina haspel, the current head of the cia? >> i admire and respect gina haspel and i want her to stay a a director. i think it's important thatit t inion of the cia and the professionals be protected from this very, very abusive white house and mr.trump. >> if you were here in this position that she is in and u ju outlined you have your own

concerns about this president and you trustif gina haspel, you were in her position would you go along with saying, fine, revoke it, i'll keeput my shut because it's more important for me to b?ay on the is that what you would do as cia director? >> we have t do what our consciences tell us. to dan coates, if i were in those positions now i would express my deep, deep objection privately to mr. trump a and have conversation with him about just how bad this is for the community and for the national security and intelligence professiont and as a res that conversation, i would have to decide then whether or not i could stay in my position. >> so you are saying you would derstand if somebody objected to what happened to you, but stayed in the position becausee maybe made the decision it's better for me to stay here and be a guardrail t to stand up and be awh publitleblower

of sortsd? sorts? >> i think that's what a lot of thtre officials areng to reconcile in their own minds how much they can stay and be governs on mr. trump's behavior and how much they cannot countenance at all. people like john kelly, chief of staff, who i know and respect and like so much. john and i worked very close together. i am sure he is trying to keep mr. trump from doing awful terrible things. but at some point these senior officials have to ask themselves are they enabling this continued abusive an reckless behavior or not. and if they feel as though th are enabling it and they are not having that type of governing influence on it, i think they have to show their displeasure and leave. ess >> have you heard from gina haspel since this happened or director coates? >> i have not heard from anybody in the government since this heard from a number of former a colleagues friends

expressing their support, but i was not notified before this happened by anybody in the government. i have not heardrom anybody otnce then. to me that's surprising the way this white house, this administration works. >> realistica what does this mean? you lost your security clearance. what does that mean? gina haspel can't call you and talk about the job? is that the extent of whattyyou secu clearance was for? that's what other cia directors have hinted ou that some ways it's for current directors to ask former directors the opinion about certain things. >> well, for me it probably means that. that i just can't go into the agency and have conversations with people who may cl me up and ask me for my thoughts and views. that has happened in the last couple of months. but for others, former officials on that list, some of them serve on boards of directors that require security clearances because the companies involved deal with classified informatn. and this c have a very

punitive, very financial hit against them. and so now if i were asked to be on a brd that required a security clearance, i couldn't. but again giving up my security clearances in order to bring this issue to a head, to me i'm willing to do that. first time in 38 years i have not had a security clearance. i love and respect and admire my former colleagues in the cia and other places and i will fight to keep their profession pure, objective,d not being politicized. and members of congress need to step up. thishas the time your country is going to rely on you. not to do what is best for your party, but what is besty.or the coun >> when you speak as a former cia director, i'll be honest, ma perk up more. i think other people's perk up more. so when you have draw conclusions about the russia probe, youave gone farther than most on collusion, on conspiracy. is this -- >> no, chuck, i said collusion

is certainly in plain sight. >> i underveand. but you connected dots, for instance, michael hayden himself said i agree with the facts he is stating. i am not ready to connect those dots. why are you ready to connect those dots? >> again i am pointing outis wh in plain sight, what all of us have read and seen over the last 18, 19 months since president trump has been in office. the things that have come t. the individuals who already have admitted to wrongdoing. these are things,th whe ruins, and th-- with the russia tod this speaks to collusion. it's going to be u robert mueller. the courts decide whether any of this risele toz the l of conspiracy, whether or not donald trump had intim knowledge of any of this. i am saying that there is collusion that took place between individuals, americans and russians. whether or nothis is going to trigger some type of criminal activity indictment is something else entirely. i have never put forth any thoughts on conspiracy.

but collusion, i don't think mr. trump has made a secret of it himself. >> final question. you talked about this lawsuit. hen would you make that decision? it sounds like you think if you thought a lawsuit could help prent the revoking of other security clearances, you would do it. when do you make that decision? >> well, i think there are a lot of people looking at this issue right now. i think i am just one voice, one person. so i am going to be seriously looking at what those options e. if my voice, if my name can help in this effort, i am willing to do that. i cognize i have a bull's-eye on my chest now by all of those who are trying to defendmr trump's abhorrent behavior. again i believe stronglynd i love this country and i don't want to see it go down because of somebody like mr. trump who has failed to fulfill his responsibilities. >> john brennan, i am going to leave it there. former director of the cia. thanks for coming on, sir. >> when we come back we will hear from president trump's ♪

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>> welcome back. as we've mentioned earweer, learned this week that white house counsel don mcgahn has been cooperating with robert mueller's russia investigation. he likely ga investigators information about possible efforts to object instruct justice that they could not have learned from anybody else. actions involving the firing of fbi director james comey and his attempts to potentially fire mueller. "the times" says he cooperated in part because he feared mr. trump was setting h upo take the blame for an obstruction charge. the president reiteratedmohis ing that mr. mcgahn cooperated because he asked him to cooperate. >> joining me is rudy giuliani. welcome back to "meet the press," sir. >> hi, chuck. how are you? >> i am good. the white house counsel, the personal lawyer, forme all of that. i am trying to be careful with titles. let me start with "the new york times" story and don mcgahn.

let me ask it this way. the previous legal team wasty cobb and john. do they wanted to fully cooperate. you and emmett flood wanted more parameters around what special counsel robert mueller would havewo done. d you have recommended the amount of cooperation don mcgahn has given to robert mueller had you been the attorney at the beginning? >> they represented him at a dierent stage in this investigation. actually, they did something very, very helpful. they allowed 32 witnesses to testify. they turned over 1.4 million documents. they didn't raise executive privilege or in thisase with mr. mcgahn attorney/client privilege so that the independent counsel, special counsel could get as much evidence as possible. in fact, i think john dowd would tell you was an agrmument with boler that it would be conclud concluded quickly. if i had known the outcome that mueller would not conclude it quickly, that this really wasn't an attempt in tod faith to

to work out some resolution of this, i might have chosen a different strategre i amy sure they would have. be that as it may, it puts us in a strong position to say don't -- they don't need to question him. they have all the iormation -- >> doesn't this put you in a position of now it looks like you are aaid of being questioned? i ask it this way. the special counsel has an eyewitness on whether or not the ustice.nt obstructed righ we don't know whether he did or not, but he has a potential yewitness that is either exculpatory or problematic for you. doesn't that actually underscore the reasope why theal counsel has to talk to the president? o absolutely not. first all, we have a good sense, obviously, of what mr. mcgahn testified to. i can figure it out from -- >> how do you say that good sense? have you debriefed him? >> no, no. but mr. dowd has a good sense of it. he talked to them at the time. >> so you don't know what he testified to, to mr. mueller?

>> i think that through john dowd we have a pretty good sense of it. john dowd yesterday said, i'll use his words rather than i mean, that mcgahn was a strong witness for the president. so i don't need to know much more about that. alsothey don't need to know what the president is going to say because the president has said it. and we've told them that weip would ate what the president has said is the president's true belief that he did nowrong, that he wasn't involved in collusion, that he wasn't involved in obstruction. they have yet to pro pound a question to us, give us ati qu where there is not an answer to it already by theen presof the united states. so the only reason they could possibly want the president of th i united state because they are desperate for some kind of charge they can hang their hat on. hey don't have collusion or conspiracy, as brennan pointed out, and they -- >> how do you know you say this so definitively. how do you know they don't? >> i know they don't becse, look, this whole mcgahn thing

leaked from them. if they had some kind o evidence that there was collusion or there was obstru ion, don't you think would have been leaked? they leak eerything else. >> i mean, let's talk about collusion. the trump tower meeting itself is at least evidence of you better investigate. it's a -- >> it's not. >> because the meeting was originally for the purpose of getting information about clinton. the meeting turned into a meching -- >> w in itself is an attempt at collusion. >> it's not. >> you just said it. e meet was intended to get dirt on hillary clinton from a kremlin lawyer. ha no, no. >>was the intention of the meeting. you just said it. >> that was the original intense of meeting. it turned out to be a meeting about anotherdy soubject and its not pursued at all. any meeting with regard to getting information on your opponent is something any candidate's staff would take. if someone said i have information about your opponentk you would that meeting. if it happens to be --

>> from the rus ganernment? >> she didn't represent the russian government. she is a privatet en. i don't even know if they knew she was russian at the tim >> i think they knew she was russian, okay. >> not when they set up the meeting. you asked me did they show an intention to o anythingth russians. all they knew is a woman with a t russian name wanted to mth them. they didn't know she was a representative of the russian government and she is not a representative of the russian vernment. the president of the united states wasn't at that meeting, he didn't know about that meeting. he found out about it later. by the time he founout about it, it was nothing. if this is their case for collusion, good luck mueller. k >> let me go b the core part of the investigation which is do you believe that sobody stole emails from john podesta and the dnc and leaked them to wikileaks? that happened, right? you believe that crime >> well, i believe that somebody

know em and they didn't that those emails were gotten and i'm almost certain from the reports that i have read that it's hacking and it looks like it's pretty clear that it was russian. >>ut it's import to mr. mueller to get to the bottom of that, no? >> of course. he has had months tt get to the of it. he has 1.4 million documents. he's got at least 32 witnesses in which we didt rais executive privilege. and in the case of mr. mcgahn, had a better case. we could have had attorney/client privilege. the presid testify, is happy that he did, is quite secure that there is nothing in the testimony tat will hurt the president. john dowd told you that when he said he was a strong witness for the president. so i believe this is a desperate special counsel who leaked this to the "new york times," illegally i might add, and, in fact -- >> do you have any evidence that

he leaked this to the "new york times"? >> the only other one that could have done di was mcgahn. 't leak it to the types times. jake sekulow didn't leak it to the times. the president sure as heck didn't. who could ite? mcgahn would have done it a long time ago. they are down to desperation time. they have to write a report avd they don'ta single bit of evidence. even>> brennan -- ren't you and the president to blame for the delay in the mueller report? take a listen -- this is how you have answered the question about a mueller interview. you'll enjoy it. i promise. >> never beyond two or three hours. if they were written answers. they most probably would be under oath. the main focus we want is simply russia th would probably limit it to collusion and obstruction. he doesn't need to ask a single question on obstruction. if wet do t under oath we end up in a martha stewart situation. mueller has all the answers. we have given them.

>> can't you speed up mueller'st report and ca you have more credibility about getting mueller's report if you get thet president to down with him. >> get the word o credibili of it. we have plenty of credibility. the last two letters, they took 12 days respond to our wil letter. that sets for the a negotiating position about an interview. we didn't reject it.we idn't say out of hand we are not going to do it. and they put pressure to come back quickly. we came back in four days. it is a week and a half later and they have not responded to our letter. now, don'tme telhat we're delaying this if they are spending a week and a half getting back to us.t i doow why they are doing that, but they are sure as heck not showing any desire to expedite it. i can't get them to write a letter feyter than have. you want to start counting up the time -- >>ou believe this is on them? that you guys have not delayed

e e interviewing, delayed negotiations? >> yes. each time by three or four days so we could write a letter in response. they have taken two to three weeks to get back to us. what iave to tell you is, look, i am not going to be rushed into having him testy so he gets trapped into perjury. when you tell me that, you know, he should testy because he is going to tell the truth and he shouldn't worry, that's silly because it's somebody's version of the not the truth. he didn't have a conversation -- >> truth is truth. i don't mean to go -- >> no, it isn't truth. truth isn't truth. ofthe presidenthe united states says i didn't -- >> truth is a truth, mr. mayor. do you realize -- >> no, no, no. >> this is going to become a bad meme. >> don't do this to me. donald trump says i didn't talk out flynn with comey. comey says you did talk about it. tell me what the tth is. >> don mcgahn might know. >> you're such a genius -- don mcgahn doesn't know. we have two pieces of evidence. trump says i didn't tellnd him

the other guy says he did say it. which is the truth? >> at that point, you're right. under two people. no. you are ght. i don't read minds on that front. a final question. >> no, new york o, let me finis. you have to select one or the other. who do you think mueller is going to select? one of his best friends, comey, or the presidt who he has been carrying on a completely wil crazy -- >> is it possible he makes asi conc based on who has been more truthful over the years? >> it's possible that he'll make the conclusion on which of the two statements is more logical. which of the two statements has more com sense. yeah, it's possible he can do that. but, no, you can't bring into question prior conduct. you are not allowed to do that at a trial. >> all right. one final question. you said if mueller doesn't get this done in two or three weeks, basically referring to september

1st, we will just unload on like a ton of bricks. what does that mean? >> interfering with the election. he could have gotten this done earlier. the person who delayed -- >> what is the ton of bcks? is tresident going to fire him? >> no. we are going to point out to the public how he has acted improperly and he i vieolating a justice department rule about not carrying on -- >> a that's not rule. it's about issuing indictments and things like that. no. about carrying -- >> he can go dark. >> it's not. it's about caring on a public investigation. if he has to issue a subpoena during that period of time, it would be a gross interference in the election when he could have issued theth subpoena six m or three months before. >> i think we are both agreeing on that. >> i would like toomment about brennan. brennan made the extraordinary charge that the prident was treasonous and then just said to you, and i commend you for your

questioning, that heas no information that the president is guilty of cispiracy. well mean, that is just conjecture that this man accuses people of a crime that could carry death as the result. totally -- >> a highly charged word. >> an unhinged character who shouldn't have a security clearance. >> thanks for coming on. always interesting to talk with you. thank you. >> thank you. >> when we come back, the panel will be here. let's just say there is a lot to discus

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being america's best first job. >> welcome bac the panel is here. gh hewitt, yamiche alcindor, white house correspondent for pbs news hour, political reporter carole lee and eugene robinson. wow. i was going to start with admiral mcraven signing on with john brennan, but i think we v some interviews t react to. eugene. >> well, start with truth isn't truth,ay which giuliani just said an extraordinary thing. justows more logs on to the

fire of this administration's truthfulness and candor, or lack thereof. it's an amazing thing. it's the new alternative facts. that was extraordinary. the other thing is john brennan, i'll say one thin andow we'll get into other aspects of the brennan interview. it's not -- h the president the right to cancel these security clearances,he bu doesn't necessarily have the right to do it for the wrong reasons. there are thousands of people in washington that have securitra cles. it cannot be the case that the only ones who deserve have theirs scrutinized and taken away are vocalop publicnents of donald j. trump. so if you do something you have a legalo,ight to but if you do it for vindictive reasons, political reasons, you know, that may not f. >> i think john brennan conceded the conspiracy is off the table. dy seized on that. when he does this, he just wants

to talk to chuck todd about the facthat john brennan just took conspiracy off the table. yesterday richard heburr, chairman of the intelligence committee, he has worked well are warner, said there is nol fact basis for conspiracy or collusion that has yet been introduced to hisd committee. e news in that interview with rudy is we are not going to fire mueller. we are just going to keep pointing out he has nothing and we are giving him nothing more because 30 hours with don mcgahn is an unprecedented level of cooperation. my former boss fred fielding still needs smelling salts. >> carroll, i was stunned that rudy giuliani isn't -- taking john dowd's word for don mcgahs testimony. i found that stunning. >> right, and then he wastoery cleaou that he didn't really know what was said. and that stunning. it's also interesting to watch them try to flip the script the don mcgahn story and say, no, no, we love this. this was great. we wanted him to d this. the president is happy that he

did this and say, well -- and he specifically said that he is in a strong position to say they don't have to question theid prt because he not only interviewed don mcgahn and spend 30 hrs with him, but all of these other individuals. and so -- and then he said we're not the ones that are causing thdelay. >> right. >> which is clearly been the case over the last few months. >> mcgahn' cooperation looks like it makes the president's inte >> one of the biggest things i took out of don mcgahn talking for so long with theun special l is he had his own lawyer and own legal statgy going in because he was worried the president was going to blame that on him. that's remarkable. not to go to the omarosa thing yet, but there is ts idea that omarosa, in my reporting, used to tell people in meetings, have you guys hired your lawyers because we all should be understanding ofh the fact we could have legal consequences to just working in this building. going back to rudy giuliani's

interview, you said the headline. i think the headline truth isn'r h, as soon as he said that, i thought chuck todd doe things well. the last time kellyanne conway said alternative facts. i think the idea that truth isn't truth is going to go down as this white house's legal strategy and approximate president' preside -- and this president's legal strategy. >> let me go to the campaign thatashe made against mueller. the question is, he is going after the intel community. admiral mcrave he put up a tough statement. he goes i would consider it an honor if you would revoke my an security cle as well so i can add my name to the list of the men and women who have spokenin up a your presidency. you think your mccarthy erare tactics su the voices of criticism, you are mistaken. that's not good? >> admiral mcraven has been on

myhow. gave t best commencement speech in history. he is a hero. bill webster is another man i admire. i still question the letter because it ignores a lot of the 2014 problems with john brennan. mark udall called for his resignation for spying on democratic staffers. dianne feinstein does not hold him in high regard it went fourth than it out ght have gone. uld have waited for a different hill than john brennan's security clearance in which to die. especiallyhen brennan comes on this morning, and he is a colleague of ours at nbc news. when he walks back treason, you don't get to walk back treason. or that makes brennan probably a rough spoke person the intel community. >> it is. it's that one the reason, of course, he was a former director of the cia. you naturally hold him to a somewhat higher standard. >> no offense to a memberf

congress when they say it. when a member of congress says it, i assume it's political -- y. exac he is making the difference between collusion and conspiracy. i agree with him. collusion is there in plain sight. does it amount to conspiracy, a legal term. so we'll see. that's for mueller to decide. the mcraven letter made me think of how this is perceived, all of this is perceived by the intelligence community, by, you know, a 30-year veteran of the cia, john brennan, who knows enerybody, who has b there, been in the trenches with everybody. this is a huge deal for the thousands of intelligence professionals around here. >> well, there are intelligence officials who are uncomfortable with how far brennan has gone. i thought he saidree really interesting things in your inrview with him. rst, he laid out where he sight go in a legal argument. basically, the pnt has the power to do this. is he abusing that power?

>> characterassassination. >> he used the word injunction 57d said he would be willing toc go tort. then he said when you asked him about what he would do as cia director, which was a great he question didn't really have an answer. he said i would have a private conversation with theid prt and then based on whatever he said, maybe i would go publicly. then he tas about, you know, individuals who work in the government, you knoss needing to ly resign if they reach that point where they crossed over from governin to enabling. what is that disstinks? -- distinction. >> he didn't make that clear. >> when we come back many are referring to 2018 as the year of referring to 2018 as the year of the woman. i thisa tomato you can track from farm, to pot, to jar, to table. and serve with confidence that it's safe. this is a diamond you can follow from mine to finger, and trust it never fell into the wrong hands.

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>> welcome back. 2018 is shaping upe o be one of st diverse years for candidates for public office the country has ever seen. 13 women have won primaries for overn are races, 19 for the senate and more than 100 for the house. the remkable diversity extends

jond gender. let's look at lbgtq races. more than 430 have run in this cycle and up to thi point an expected 219 will be on the ballot this november. there are 4 nomineesor governor, one for the senate ano 21 who hav primaries for house seats. we have also seen the highest number of muslim candidates since 9/11. there are a lot of factors driving these diversity numbers overall. asey look like a response to the 2016 election that driven largely by a focus, by candidate white working class men. >> when we come back end game and the story that won't go away. >>nnouncer: coming up, end game brought to you by boeing. it's easy to think that all money managers are pretty much the same.

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>> end game broughtto you by boeing. continuing our mission to connect, protect, explore, and inspire. back now with end game. youcan't talk about american politics without the role of religions in general and what's happening in the catholic church this week out of pennsylvania is

something tha going to have reverberations here. a pennsylvania grand jury report released more tn 1,000 child victims of more than 300 abusive catholic priests across one state of pennsylvania. this is in 2018. bover mind what they thought they made movies in 2002 and things like that. i want to get everybody's reaction. this is from the grand jury inport on how the church had a playbook for concethe truth. make sre use you'-- never say r. in this playbook, if a rapes children, provide him housing and livingconditions, referring to the priests. when a priest has to be removed, don't saynd why, a above all, hugh hewitt, don't tell the police. >> i am an ashamedng and grie catholic. the archbishop should be fired today because he was part of a conspiracy to cover up a child

porn ring run by priests in pittsburgh. >> think about what you said there. >> i a child porn ring. >> run by priests. d child pedaling and child trafficking. you can't read this without vomiting if you e aatholic who believes in the church. i think attorney general shapir democrat of pennsylvania, has set a starred for 49 other attorneys general. we cannot trust thech catholic ch -- we can trust some people. you can't trust the church to do this. you have to have, i think, 49 more shapiro repor. >> holy cow. >> i imagine as someone who also catholic, i think of developing countries. pennsylvania and maybe the 49 olher states might get to this. the ca church has roots in so manr othe places where priests are seen not just the people at church but the people who run the schools, they are the people who run aid, where families go to if yourtoeed your chilave a role model if your father is not around. when i was reading about the priests putting crosses on

children's next to tell other priests this is a child who is vulnerable and has already been violated, i almost vomited. it's terrifying. >> pope francis is going to to do something. >> what is the something? >> something serious. >> what is it? >> i don't know. >> h b does tihat begin? >> he is the pope. he can send a clearer message, i think, than has been nt thus far. to say that the catholic church in this country -- i mean, because there will be, i think, if not 49, more shapiro reports. >> here's what i think makes this so damning. the first time a public abuse scandal was 1985. he made his name by uncovering the abuse taking place up in new england, and it's as if the catholic church each time dealt with the problem and tied to move on. >> it's a culture of secrecy.st

it's an iution that does not -- that sees itself as itsn nd of moral an governing and legal authority. so and so -- and it's massive. it's across the world. and what we've seen is kind of abuse is so widespread that were the church try to tackle the issue, how would you even know -- you don't know who is trying to solve the problem is actually part of the problem because it goes from the individuals who have committed abuses to those w i covered up to people who are complicit into it. and it's very widespread. i think pope francis, you know, he has -- he doesn't have a great track record of dealing with these issues, particularly when it came up inhile. he still hasn't said anything. > i am curious of the larger societal impact of an evangelical movement that has rned the other wayn this

president and what he has done morally. a catholic church that you can't trust morally with your kids even if you believe in your own beliefs. what does that do toan oed religion in this country? >> i think it makes people more and more weary of going into churches or going -- and looking at pastors for some sort of moral direction. >> if not them, who? >>s i don't think there i think what the lesson here is that you really can't trust anyone. i should say it. i'll say it. i grew up with a grandmother who was devoutly catholic and who said be careful of who you put your child with. if it'coaches, teachers, we all understand now that we need to be very, very more vigilant and -- >> if i had more time, i could run down a list of good, great leaders in the church. shapoo, gomez.il this pope has . if he fends mcelroy out of san diego or a old white guy who have been partf the complicity

d conspiracy for 40 years he will have failed because those institutions are necessary. >> sorry to be talking about this on a sundaymorning. thank you for watching. as we say good-bye, we will leave you with an uplifting momentfrom the great aretha franklin at the kennedy center honors in 2015 where she honored carole king with her rendition of "you make me feel like a tural woman." enjoy. if it's sunday, it's "meet the ♪ you make me feel ♪ you make me feel like a natural woman ♪ ♪ natural ♪ you make me feel ♪ you make me feel ♪ like a natural woman ♪ a woman a woman