russia probe. fresident trump revokes the security clearance former ciajo chief hn brennan. >> mr. brennan has a history that calls into question his objectivity and credibility. >> and threatens to do the same to other former officials who have criticized him. >> security clearances for those who still mhave thembe ma revoked. >> i think bruce ohr is a disgrace. i suspect i will be taking it away quickly. >> brennan reacts. >> i think this isn egregious act that flies in the face oftr itional practice as well as common sense as well as national security. >> says mr. trump is abusing the power offf hise. >> he is drunk on power. he really is.

>> and calls the president's move an attempt to scare and silence others who might dare to challenge. my guests, the man atnt the c of the controversy, john brennan. plus, late word that esident trump's white house counsel don mc has been cooperatingte exnsively with robert mueller's russia investigatn. one prosecutor calls this like having keys to the kingdom. i'll talk to president trump's current lawye rudy giuliani. joining me for insight and analysis are "washington p columnist eugene robinson, nbc news political reporter carole lee, hugh hewitt, host on the alem radio network, and yamiche alcindor white hou correspondent for the pbs news hour. welcome toy. sun it's "meet t a press." ouncer: from nbc news in e washington, thlongest running show in television history, this is "meet the pre" with chuck todd. good sunday morning. no ordinary august. we have a big show. john brennan and rudy giuliani. we are going to get to both of

them in a moment. it was almost a half century ago we learned of president richarde nixon'smy list, people like daniel shore, congressman john conyers, even actor paul newman. it gre over time. then white house counsel john dean wrote ia white house memo that administration sought to use incumbency to deal with the opponents. stated, dean wrote this this o white house mbefore he turned, how we can use the available federal machinery to screw our political opponents. dean of course eventually testified against his president. the nixon watergate era list gained renewed relevance this year. he threatened to do more to thee highest pro critics. yesterday we learned that president trump's white house counsel don mcgahn has been cooperating fully with robert mueller's investigation. that was, of course, the president's legal strateon at

time. not anymore. to complete the watergate st circle, dcircle john dean tweeted mcgahn is doing right. friday night post" reported the white house has already drafted documents to punish mr. trump's oeonents that listed above and that white house officials have discussed timing the release of the documents, quote, as a distraction during an favorable newsth cycles. certainly seemed to be the goal this week as the white house broke thebrennan news at the height of one of those, quote, unfavorable news cycles. >> they should be lookingll at these fbi guys who got fired and demoted. it's a really -- it's not us. >>president trump reportedly furious about the nonstop coverage of omarosa manigault newman. >> what mr. nixon -- i mean mr. trump does will be brought to light. >> tried to change the subject, testing the waters on how far he can go to personally intervene in the russia investigation and to punish his critics.

>> i like taking-- envoys on voices like that. >> wednesday mr. trump told "the wall street journal" he stripped jose brennan's clearance bec of the investigation. quote, i call it the rigged wuch hunt. it is a sham. and these people let it. so i think it's something that had to be done. >> this is angregious act tha flies in the face of traditional practice as well as common sense as well asal nation security. >> now with his former campaign chairman on trial for bank and tax fraud, the president is threatening to do the same to nine other critics, including a current member of his justice department. >> i think bruce ohr is a disgi'ce. i suspec be taking it away veryquickly. >> by targeting o hr he is attacking a mid-level civil servant who needs a clearance to do his job and is prohibited from fighting back. the intelligence community is firing back. after brennan's clearance was

revoked, the commander of the raid that killed osama bin laden, retired admiral william mcraven, criticized the president's mccarthy-era tactics. 75 former intelligence officials have for brennan called mr. trump's action an attempt to stifle free speech a handful of republicans on capitol hill have criticized the president's tactics. >> i thought it was kind of a banana republic kind of thing. >> most have defended the taics. >> mr. brennan has gone way over the line in my view and i think restricting his clearance, pulling his clearance makes sense to me. >> it was about time that he did take away that. >> i think iim sauld h a butt head and i meant it. a mr. trump's attacks on the justice department intelligence community are only escalating. now some officials worry thatl special counbert mueller and his team could be next. >> what the president is doi, in part, is sending a menacing signal to the prosecutors and

the investigators on the mueller team that if they continue their investigation, that their security clearance, which they need in order to do their job, is put in jeopardy. >> and joining me now is the former director of the cia, john brennan.so he is a an nbc news national security and intelligence analyst. former director brennan, welcome back to meteorologist, sir. >> thank you, chuck. >> let me start with something. the presidentimself said about how this punishment is not about silencing you. it's about something else. take a listen and i want to get your reaction. >> there is no silence. if aanything, giving him a bigger voice. many people don't even know who he is. now he has a bigger voice, and that's okay with me because i like taking envoys like that.t' >> t the president confirming he actually wanted to elevate you and ma you -- is that what you believe he was doing? that's what he said t there. want elevate you, make you more famous and essentially make

this a one-on-one with you. is that how you read this? >> it's hard for me to read mr. trump in terms of the actions taking. but i think it was a clear signal too others still have their security clearances, both in the government as well asid ou that if you cross him, if you speak out against him, he is going to use whatever tools he might have at his disposal to punish you. so i think this is yetanother example of his egregious abuse of power and authority. just because he has the ability revoke one's clearance doesn't mean he is doing it for the appropriate reasons. ined, he violated the process that he himself, his st admition, put out last year in terms of ore basis revoking security clearances. so i think it was just designed to distract the press fm some of the other things going on last week. >> there were nine other peop that sarah sanders indicated could be in danger of losing

their clearance. i know you don't have a video monitor, but james clapper, james comey, who doesn't have one, mic'd hayden, sally yates, andrew mccabe, peter strzok, why are those the ten people they are signaling out? >> because they have been critical of him or because he wants to use them as examples op the state or those that are trying to h hurtm. in the case of bruce ohr, a department of justice official, i think that is one of the mostag ouus steps that he could take to revoke the clearances of a current government official because he doesn't like either them or their spouse in terms of what they might have done. that is so antithetical t what has been the practice and the tradition and whatco needs to inue to be the basis for the granting of the revoking of ce security clearso you trust people with those secrets.

>> i'm curious. oni fridayt with rachel maddow you indicated that you have had lawyers contact you about possible legalacon. it's 48 hours later. what would that look like? is that something you'erious about? >> well, i have been contacted by a number of lawyers and they have alreadyiven me their thoughts about the basis for a ncomplaint, annction to try to prevent him from doing this in the future. if my clearances and my reputation as i'm being pulled through the mud now, it if that's the price to prevent donald trump from doing this too other people, me it's a small price to pay. i am going to do whatever i can rsonnelly to try to prevent these abuses in the future. if it means going to will do that. >> you have been more outsken than any former official. it may be why many republican gislators believe your comments have been over the top. do you regret accusing theid

prt of treason? do you regret some of the things you have said? >> i called his behavior treasonous. i stand very much by that claim. >> you are the former cia director accusing the sitting esident of the united states. it's not a private citizen. a lot of people here, the former cia director accusing the sitting president of the united states of treason, that's a monumental accusation. >> well, i think these are abnormal times and i think a loa of peopl spoken out against what mr. trump has done and mybeit's my warning, training as an intelligence professional. i hase the lights blinking red in terms of what mr. trump n has and is doing and is bringing this country down on the global stage and fueling and feeding divisiveness in our country. he continually lies to the american people. the type ofhe things doing, i need to speak out. i don't believe i'm being l at all. i am not a republican.

i am not a democrat. and manyth members of congress over the years who have security clearances have spoken out rather forcefully against whoever was in the oval office if they weren't from the same political party. knew they are telling me i shouldn't do that. >> i want to give you a chance to respond to chard burr. he said if director brennan's statement is based on intelligence he receivedwhile still leading the cia, why didn't he include in the a communitessment released? 2017? if his statement is based on intelligence he has seen since leaving office, it constitutes a breach. if his statement is purely political an based on conjecture, the president has full authority to revoke hisan security cle. it seems as if senator burr is saying have you said in the public sphere that has gone beyond the facts that you know? > i like and respect senator

burr. i was disappointed by his statement. i wonder whether or not he read my op-ed. committees, he including his committee, everything that i know from my time as cia director a the cia has shared with the senate and the huse intelligence committee everything that we knew. what i said in my op-ed is i have some to understand, because of a free and open press here in the unit states, what actually was transpiring during that presidential election campaign seas. in terms o meetings at trump tower and also the fact that donald trump when he was theen presal candidate of the republican party, when he called publicly on the russians to find hillary's emails, i didn't realize when i was cia director it was that very night that russian intelligence went after her emls. i made a point in the op-ed that collusion means cooperating in some form. i conspira something else. i think all americans need to wait for robert mueller to be able to finalize his wvestigation and to determine whether or not the any

criminal activity that was taking place there. i have spoken outgainst mr. trump's lack ofisdecency, civility, honesty, and character. i will continue do that because i have always revered the office of the presidency. i think mr. trump i letting millions of americans down. >> you were a sitting cia director at one point. if you worked for a president that did this, what would you do in this situation? >> if i worked -- >> if you were currently the ad of the cia and the president revoked the security clearance of a former cia head, at would you do as sitting cia director under that d rcumstance? at advice would you give to gina haspel, the current head of the cia? >> i admire and respgit haspel and i want her to stay a taa director. i think it's imp that the institution of the cia and the professionals be protected from this veryy abusive white house and mr. trump. >> if you were here in this position that she is in and you just outlined you have your own

concernsbout this president and you trust gina haspel, if you were in her position would you go along with saying, fine, revoke it, i'll keep my mouth shut because it's more important for me to stay on the job? is that what you would do as cia director? >> we have to do what our consciences tell us to do. dan ctes, if i were in those positions now i would express my deep, deep objection privately a mr. trump and have conversation with him about just how bad this is for the community and for the national security and intelligence professions. and as a result of that conversation, i would have to cide then whether or not i could stay in my position. >> so you e saying you would understand if somebody objected to what happened to you, bu i stay the position because maybe they made the decision it's better for me to stay here and be a guardrail than to stand up and be a public whistleblower

of sortsd? nkorts? >> i that's what a lot of these officials are trying to reconcile in their own minds how much they can stay and be governs on mr. trump's behavior and how much they cannot countenance at all. people like john kelly, chief of aff, who i know and respect and like so much. john and i worked very closeth to. i am sure he is trying to keep mr. trump from doing awful terrible things. but at some point these senior officials have to ask themselves are they enabling this continued abusive and reckless behavior or not. and if they feel as though they are enabling it and they are not having that type of governing influence on it, i think they have to show their displeasure and unhappiness and leouve. >> have heard from gina haspel since this happened or director coates? >> i have not hear fromybody in the government since this happened. i have heard from a number of former colleagues and friends

expressing their suppt, but i was not notified before this happened by anody in the government. i have not heard from anybody since then. to me that's not surprising the way this white house this administration works. >> realistically, what does this mean? youur lost y security clearance. what does that mean? gina haspel can't call you and talk abou the job? is that the extent of what your security clearance was for? that's what othe cia directors have hinted out, that in some ways it's r current directors to ask former directors their opinion about certain things. >> well, for me it probably means that. that i just can't go into the agency and have conversations with people who may call me up and ask me for my thoughts ands vi that has happened in the last couple of months.bu for others, former officials on that list, some of them serve on boards of dectors that require security clearances because the companies involved deal with classified information. and this can have a very

punitive, very financial hit against n them. and if i were asked to be on a board that required a security clearance, i couldn't. but again giving up my security clearances in order to bring this issue to ahead, to me i'm willing to do that. first timein 38 years i have not had a security clearance. i love and respect and admire my former colleagues in the cia and other places and i will fight to keep their profession pure, objective, and not being d politicized. mbers of congress need to step up. this is the time that your country is going to rely onto y. no do what is best for your party, but what is best for the country. >> when you speak as a former cia director, i'll be honest, my ears perk up more. i think other ppeople's perk more. so when you have drawn conclusions about the russiapr e, you have gone farther than most on collion, on conspiracy. nis this -- chuck, i said collusion

is certainly in plain sight. >> i understand. buyou have connected dots, for instance, michael hayden himself said i agree with the facts he isstating. i am not ready to connect those dots. why are you ready to connect those dots? >> again i am pointing out what is in plain sit, what all of have read and seen over the last 18, 19 months since thesident trump has been in office. things that have come out. the individuals who already have admied to wrongdoing. these are things, with the ruins, and th-- with the russia and this speaks to collusion. it's going to be up to robert mueller. the courts decide whether any of this rise toz the level of conspiracy whether or not donald trump had intimate knowledge of any of this. i am saying hat there is collusion that took place betwn individuals, americans and russians. whether or not this is going to trigger some type of criminal activity indictment is something else entirely. i have never put forth any thoughts on conspiracy.

mr.collusion, i don't think trump has made a secret of it himself. >> final question. you lked about this lawsuit when would you make that decision? it sounds like you think if you thought lawsuit could help prevent the revoking of other security clearances, you would i when do you make that decision? >> well, i think there are a lot of people looking at this issue righ now. i think i am just one voice, one person. so i am going to be seriou wy looking t those options are. if my voice, if my name can help in this lleffort, i am g to do that. i recognize i have a bull's-eye on my chest now by all of those o are trying to defend mr. trump's abhorrent behavior. again i believe strongly and i love this country and i don't want to see it go down because of somebody like mr. trump who has failed to fulfill his responsibilities. >> john brennan, i am going to leave it there. form director of the cia. thanks for coming on, sir. >> when we come back we will hear from president trump's ♪

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>> welcome back. as we've mentioned earlier, we learned this week that white house counsel don mcgahn has been cooperating with robert ss mueller's investigation. he likely gave investigators information about possible efforts to object instruct justice that they could not have learned from anybody else. actions involving the firing of fbi director james comey and his attempts to potentially fire mueller. "the times" says he cooperated in part because he feared mr. trump was setting him up to take the blame for an obstruction charge. the president reiterated this morning that cooperated because he asked him >>to cooperate. oining me is rudy giuliani. welcome back to "meet the press," sir. >> hi, how are you? >> i am good. the white house counsel, the personal lawyer, former lawr, all of that. i am trying to be careful with

titles. let me start with "the new york times" story and don mcgahn. let me ask it this way. the previous legal team wasty cobb and john dowd. they wanted to fully cooperate. you and emmett flood wanted more parameters around what special counsel robert mueller would have don would you ha recommended the amount of cooperation don mcgahn has given to robert mueller had you been the attorney at the beginning? >> they represented him at a different stage in this investigation. actually, they did something very, very helpful. they allowed 32 witnesses to testify. they turned over 1.4 million documes. ey didn't raise executive privilege or in this case with mr. mcgahn attorney/client privilege so that the independent counsel, special counsel could get as much evidence as possible. in fact, i think john dowd would tell you was an agreement with i bob mueller thwould be conclud concluded quickly. if i had known the outcome that mueller would not conclude it

quickly, that this really wasn't an attempt in good faith to try to work out some resolution of this, i might have chosen a different strategy. i am pretty su they would have. be that as it may, it puts us in say we position to don't -- they don't need to question him. they have all the - informati >> doesn't this put you in a position of now it looks like you are afraidf being questioned? i ask it this way. the special counsel has an eyewitness on whether or not the president obstructed justice. right? we don't know whether he did or not, but heha a potential eyewitness that is eitherlp exory or problematic for you. doesn't that actually underscore the reason why the special counsel has to talk to the president? >> absolutely not. fit of all, we have a good sense, obviously, of what mr. mcgahn testified to. i can figure it out from -- >> how do you say that good sense? have you debriefedno him? >> no. but mr. dowd has a good sense of it. talked to them at the time. >> so you't dnow what he

testified to, to mr. mueller? >> i think that through john dowd we have a pretty good sense of it. john dowai yesterday i'll use his words rather than i mean, that mcgahn was a strong witness for the president. so i don't need to more about that. also, they don't need to know what the president is going to say besiuse the pnt has said it. and we've told them that we would stipulate what the president has said is the president's true belief that he did nothing wrong, that he wasn't involved in collusion, that he wasn't involved inct obstn. they have yet to pro pound a reestion to us, give us a question where ts not an answer to it already by the president of the united states. so the only reason they couldss ly want the president of the united states is because they are desperate for somend of charge they can hang their hat on. they don't have collusion or ns racy, as brennan pointed out, and they -- >> how do you knowsa that? yo this so definitively. how do you know they don't?

>> i know they don't because, hing this whole mcgahn leaked from them. if they had some kind of evidence that there was collusion or there was obstruction, don't you think it would have been leaked? they leak everything else. >> i mean, let's talk about collusion. the trumtower meeting itself is at least evidence of you better investigate. it's a -- >> it's not. >> how is it not? >> because the meeting was originally for the purpose of getting information about clgton. the meetturned into a meeting -- >> which in itself is an attempt ollusion. >> it's not. >> you just said it. the meet was intended to get dirt on a hillary clinton fro kremlin lawyer. >> no, no. >> that was the intention of the meeting. st said it. >> that was the original intense of the meeting. it turned out to be a meeting about another someboubject and s not pursued at all.ti any m with regard to getting information on your opponent is something any candidate's staff would take. if someoneaid i ha

information about your opponent, you would take that meeting. if it happens to be -- >> from the russian government? >> she didn't represent the russian government. she is a private citizen. i don't even know if they knew she was russian at the time. >> i think they knew she was russian, okay. >> not when they set uinthe me you asked me did they show an intention to do anything with russians. all they knew is a woman with a russian name wanted to meet with them. they didn't know she was a representative of the russian government and she is not a representative of the russian government. the president of the united states wasn't athat eeting, he didn't know about that meeting. he found out about it later. by the time he found out about it, it was nothing. if this is their case for collusion, good luck mueller. >> let me go back to the core part of the investigation which is do youev be that somebody stole emails from john podese and dnc and leaked them to

wikileaks? that happened, right? you believe that crime happened? >> well, i believe that somebody gothem and they didn't know that those emails were gotten andin i'm almost cerrom the reports that i have read that it's hacking and it looks like it's pretty clear that it was russian. >> but it's important to mr. o mueller to gete bottom of that, no? >> of course. he has had months to get to the bottom of it. he has 1.4 million documents. he's got at least w nesses in which we didn't raise executive privilege. and in the case of mr. mcgahn, we had a better case. could have had attorney/client privilege. the president encouraged him to testify, is happy that he did, is qui secure that there is nothing in the testimony that will hurt p tsident. john dowd told you that when he said he was a strong witness for e president. so i believe this is a desperate special counsel who leaked this he "new york times," illegally i might add, and, in fact -- >> do you have any evidence that

d this to the "new york times"? >> the only other one that could have done it was mcgahn. i didn't leak it to the types tis. jake sekul didn't leak it to the times. the president sure as heck didn't. who could it be? mcgahn would have do it aong time ago. they are down to desperation time. they have to write a report and they don't have a single bit of even brennan -- >> aren't you and the president to blame for the delay in the mueller report? take a listen -- this is how you have answered the question about a mueller interview. you'll enjoy it. i promise. >> never beyond two or three hours. if they were written answers. they most probably would be under oath. the main focus we want is simply russia they would probably limit it to collusion and obstruction. he doesn't need to ask a single question on obstruction. if we do that under oath we end up in a martha stewart

situation. mueller has all the answers. we have cven them. 't you speed up mueller's report and can't you have more credibility about getting mueller's report if you get the president to sit down with him. >> get w thed credibility out of it. we have plenty of credibity. the last two letters, they took 12 days to respond to our wi letter. that sets for the a negotiating interview.out a we didn't reject it. we didn't say out of hand we are not going to do i and they put pressure to come back quickly. we came back in four days. it is a week and a half later and they have not responded to lette now, don't tell me that we're delaying this if they are spending a weekttnd a half g back to us. i don't know why they are doing that, but they are sur as heck not showing any desire to expedite it. i can' get them to write a letter faster than they hste. you want tt counting up the time -- >> you believe this is on them?

that you guys have not delayed the interviewing, delayed the negotiations? >> yes. each time by three or fr days so we could write a letter in response. two to threeen weeks to get back to us. what i have to tell you is, ok, i am not going to b rushed into having him testify so he gets trapped into perjury. aten you tell me t you know, he should testify because he is going to tell the truth and he shouldn't worry, that's silly because it's somebody's version of the truth. not the truth. he didn't have an conversat >> truth is truth. i don't mean to go -- >> no, it isn't truth. truth isn't truth. the president of the united states says i didn't -- >> truth is a truth, mr. mayor. do you realize -- >> no, no, no. >> this is going to become a bad meme. >> don't do this to me. donald trump says i didn't talk about flynn with comey. comey says you did tal about it. tell me what the truth is. >> don mcgahn >> you're such a genius -- don

mcgahn doesn't know. we have twf pieces evidence. trump says i didn't tell him and ice other guy says he did say it. is the truth? >> at that point, you'reun righ. r two people. no. you are right. i don't read minds on that front. a final question. >> no, new york you have to select one or the other. who do you think mueller is going to select? one of his best friends, comey, or the president who he has been carrying on a completely wild, crazy -- >> issiit pe he makes a conclusion based on who has been more truthful over the years? >> it's possible that he'll make the conclusion on which of the two statements is more logical. which of the two statements has more common sense. yeah, it's possible he can do that. but, no, you can't bring into question prior conduct. u are not allowed to do that at a trial. >> all right. one final question. you said if muellerdoesn't get

this done in two or three weeks, basically refeing to septembe 1st, we will just unload on him like a ton of bricksoe whatthat mean? >> interfering with the election. he could have gotten this done earlier. the person who delayed -- >> what is the ton of bricks? is the president going to fire him? no. are going to point out to the public how he has acted improperly and he is violating a justice department rule about not carrying on -- >> that's not a rule. it's about issuing indictmts and thin like that. >> no. about carrying -- >> he can s dark. >> i not. it's about carrying on a public investigation. if he has to issue asubpoena during that period of time, it would be a gross interference in the election when he could have issued the subpoena six months or three months before. >> i think we are bogring on that. >> i would like to comment about brennan. brennan made the extraordinary

charge that the president was treasonous and then just said to you, and ifo commend you your questioning, that he has no information that the president is guilty of conspiracy. well, i mean, that is just njecture that this man accuses people of a crime that could carry death as the result. totally -- >> a highly charged word. >> an unhinged character who shouldn't have a security clearance. >> thanks for comingys on. alnteresting to talk with you. thank you. >> thank you. >> when we come back, the panel will be here. let's just say there is a lot

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...and improves function. lyrica may cause serious allergic reactions, suicidal thoughts or actions. tell your doctor right away if you have these, new or worse depression, unusual changes in mood or behavior, swelling, trouble breathing, rash, hives, blisters, muscle pain with fever, tired feeling or blurry vision. common side effects: dizziness, sleepiness, weight gain, swelling of hands, legs, and feet. don't drink alcohol while taking lyrica. don't drive or use machinery until you know how lyrica affects you. those who have had a drug or alcohol problem may be more likely to misuse lyrica. with less pain, i can do more. ask your doctor about lyrica. if you're eligible, you could pay as little as $25 a month. >> welcome back. the panel is here.

hugh hewitt, yamiche alcindor, white house correspondent for pbs news hour, political reporter carole lee and eugene robinson. wow. i was going to start with admiral mcraven signing on with john brennan, but i think we v some interviews to reacto. eugene. >> well, start with truth isn't trut which mayor giuliani just said an extraordinary thg. just throws more logs on to the fire of this administration's truthfulness and candor, or lac it's an amazing thing. it's the new alternative facts. that was extraordinary. the other thing is john brennan, i'll say one thing and i know we'll get into other aspects of the brennan interview. it's not -- the president has the right to cancel these security clearances, but he

doesn't necessarily have the right to do it for the wrong reasons. there are thousands of people in washington that have security clearances. it cannot be the case that the only ones who deserve to have theirs scrutinized and taken away are vocal public opponents of donald j. trump. so if you do something you hige a legal to do, but if you do it for vindictive reasons, political rsons, you know, that may not fly. >> i think john brennan conceded the conspiracy is off the table. rudy seized on that. when he does this, he jus wants to talk to chuck todd about the fact that john brennan just took nspiracy off the table. yesterday richard burr, the chairman of the intelligence committee, he has worked well are warner, said theris no factual basis for conspiracy or collusion that has yet been introduced to hisommittee. and the news in that interview with rudy is we are not going to fire mueller. we are just going to keep e pointing out has nothing and we are giving him nothing more because 30 hours with don mcgahn is an unprecedented level of

cooperation. my former boss fred fielding still needs smelling salts. >> carroll, i was stunned that rudy giuliani isn't -- taking john dowd's word forn' don mcg testimony. i found that stunning. >> right, and thener he was clear to you that he didn't really know what was said. and that stunning. it's also interesting to watch them try to flip the script on the don mcgahn story and say, no, no, we love this. this was great. we wanted him to d this. the president is happy that he did this and say, well -- and he specifically said that he is in a strong position to say they don't have to question the president because he not only interviewed don mcgahn and spenh rs with him, but all of these other individuals. and so -- and then he saidwe're not the ones that are causing this delay. >> right. >> which is clearly been the case over the last few months. >> mcgahn's cooperation looks like it mas the president's

interview more important. >> one of the biggest things i took out of don mcgahn talking for so long with the special counsel is he had his own lawyer and own legal statgy going in because he was worried the president was going to blame that on him. that's remarkable. t to go to the omarosa thing yet, but there is this idea that arosa, in my reporting, used to tell people in meetings, have you guys hired your lawyers because we all should be understanding ofhe fact that we could have legal consequences to just working in this building. d ing back to rudy giuliani's interview, you saie headline. i think the headline truth isn't truth, as soon as he said that, i thought chuck todd does these things well. the last timeay kellyanne co said alternative facts. i think the idea that truth isn't truth is going to go down as this white house's legal st president proximate preside -- and this president's legal strategy. >> let me go t th campaign that has made against mueller. the question is, he is going

after the intel communit admiral mcraven, he put up ah tostatement. he goes i would consider it an revoke myou would security clearance as well so i can add my name to the list of the men and women who have spoken up against your presidency. you think your mccarthy e tactics suppress the voices of criticism, you are mistaken. that's not good? >> admiral mcraven has been on my show. gave the best commencement speech in history. he is a hero. bill webster is anoth man i admire. i still question the letter because it ignores a lot of the 2014 problems with john brennan. mark udall called for his resignation for spying on democratic staffers. dianne feinstein does not hold him in high regard. it went fourth than it out ght have gone. i would have waited for a

different hill than john brennan's security clearance in which to die. w especialn brennan comes on this morning, and he is a colleague of ours at nbc news. when he walks back treason, you don't get to walk back treason. >> that makes brennan probably a rough spoke person for the intel community. >> it is. it's that one word. the reason, of course, he was a foirector of the cia. you naturally hold him to a somewhat hier standard. >> no offense to a member o congress when they say it. when a member of congress says it, i assume it's>> political -- exactly. he is making the difference between collusion and conspiracy. i agree with him. collusion is there in plain sight. does it amount to conspiracy, a legal term. so we'll see. that's for mueller to decide. the mcraven letter made me think of how this is perceived, all of this is perceived by the intelligence community, by, you know, a 30-year veteran of the

cia, john breevan, who knows ybody, who has been there, been in the trenches with everybody. this is a huge deal for thes thousa intelligence professionals around here. >> well, there are intelligence ficials who are uncomfortable with how far brennan has gone. i thought he said three really interesting things inrv your inw with him. first, he laid out where he argument.n a legal basically, the president has the power to do this. is he abusing that power? >> character assassination. >> he used therd injunction 57d said he would be willing to go to court. then he said when you askedathi about he would do as cia director, which was a great question, he didn't really have an answer. he said i would have a private conversati with the president and then based on whatever he lkid, maybe i would go publicly. then he t about, you know, individuals who work in the government, you w,keeding to possibly resign if they reach that point where they crossed over from governing to enabling.

what is that disstinks? --tidisti. >> he didn't make that clear. >> he didn't make that clear. >> when we come back many are one second. barely enough time for this man to take a bite of turkey. but for cyber criminals it's plenty of time to launch thousands of attacks. luckily security analysts and watson are on his side. spotting threats faster and protecting his data with the most securely encrypted main frame in the world. it's a smart way to eat lunch in peace. sweet, oblivious peace. jardiance asked: when it comes to managing your type 2 diabetes, what matters to you? you got a1c, heart, diet, and exercise. slide 'em up or slide 'em down. so let's see. for most of you, it's lower a1c. but only a few of you

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taking jardiance with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. tell your doctor about all the medicines you take and if you have any medical conditions. man: ask your doctor about jardiance and get to the heart of what matters. >> welcome back. 2018 is shaping up to be one of the most diverse years for candidates for public office the country has ever seen. 13 women have won primaries fo govern ares races, 19 for the senate and mor than 100 for the house. the remarkable diversity extends jondlogender. let' at lbgtq races. more than 430 have run in this cycle and up to this point an expected 219 will ben the

ballot this november. there are 4 nominees for governor, one for the senate and 21 who have wonprimaries for house seats. we have also seen the highest number of muslimandidates since 9/11. there are a lot of factors driveg th diversity numbers overall. they look like a rponse to the 2016 election that was driven largely by a focus, candidate donald trump on white working class men. ba >> when we com end game and the story that won't go away. >> announcer: coming up, end game brought to it's easy to think that all money managers are pretty much the same. but while some push high commission investment products, fisher investments avoids them. some advisers have hidden and layered fees. fisher investments never does. and while some advisers are happy to earn commissions from you whether you do well or not, fisher investments fees are structured so we do better when you do better.

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religions in general and what's happening in theatholic church this week out of pennsylvania is something that is going to have reverberations here. a j pennsylvania grandy report released more than 1,000 child victims of more than 300 abusive catholic priests across oneyl state of pennia. this is in 2018. never mind what they thought they made movies about in 2002 and things like that. i want to get everybody's reaction. this is from the grandury report on how the church had a playbook for concealing the truth. make sure use you' never say ra. in this playbook, if a rapes children, provide him housing and living conditions, referring to the priests. when a priestas to removed, don't say why, and above all, hugh hewitt, don't tell the police. >> i am an ashamedcand grieving

olic. the archbishop should be fired today because he was part of a conspiracy to cover up a child porn ring run by priests pittsburgh. >> think about what you said there. >> i a child porn ring. >> run by priests. and childda ng and child trafficking. you can't read this without vomiting if you are a catholic who believes in the church. i thinrn at general shapiro, democrat of pennsylvania, has set a starred for 49 other attorneys general. we cannot trust the catholic an church -- werust some uople. can't trust the church to do this. you have to have, i think, 49 more shapiro reports. >> holy cow. >> i imagine as someone who also catholic i think of developing countries. pennsylvania and maybe thees 49 other stight get to this. the catholic church has roots in so many other places where priests are seen not just people at church but the people who run the schools, they are the people who run aid, where families go to if your need your child to have a role model if

your father is not around. when i was reading about the priests putting crosses on children's next to tell otier s this is a child who is vulnerableea and has a been violated, i almost vomited. it's terrifying. >> pope francis is going to hav to do something. >> what is the something? >> something serious. >> what is it? >> i don't know. >> how does ta begihat begin? a he is the pope. he can send clearer message, i think, than has been sentth far. to say that the catholic church in this country - i mean, because there will be, i think, if not 49, mor shapiro reports. >> here's what i think makes this so damning. the first time a public abuse scandal was 1985. he made his name by uncovering the abuse taking place up in ne england, and it's as if the

catholic church each time dealt with the problem and tried to move on. >> it's a culture of secrecy. it'sn institution that does not -- that sees itself as its own kind of moral an governing and legal authority. so and so -- ande. it's mass it's across the world. and what we've seen is that this kind o abuse is so widespread tot were the church try tackle the issue, how would you even know -- you don't know who is trying to solve the problem is actually part of t poblem because it goes from the individuals who have committed abuses to those who covered it up to people who aret compli into it. and it's very widespread. i think pope francis, youkn, he has -- he doesn't have a great track record of dealing with theses is particularly when it came up in chile.n' he still h said anything. >> i am curious of the larger

societ impact of an evangelical movement that has turned the other way on this president and what he has done morally. a catholic church that you can't trust morally with your kids even if you believe in your own beliefs. what does that do to organized religion in this country? >> i think it makes people more and more weary of going into churches or going -- and looking at pastors for some sort of moral direction. >> if not them, who? >> i don't think there is -- i think what the lesson here is y that really can't trust anyone. i should say it. i'll say it. i grew up with a grandmother who was devoutly catholic and who sa be careful of who you put your child with. if it's coache teachers, we all understand now that we need to be very, very more vigilant and -- >> if i had more time, could run down a list of good, great leaders in the church. shapoo, gomez. thisope has failed. he fends mcelroy out of san

diego or a old white guy who have been part of the complici and conspira for 40 years he will have failed because those institutions are necessary t >> sorr be talking about this on a sunday morning. thank you for watching. as we say good-bye, we will leave you with an uplifting mont fromhe great aretha franklin at the kennedy center honors in 2015 where she honored carole king with her rendition of "you make me feel like a natural woman."jo en if it's sunday, it's "meet the press." ♪ you make me feel ♪ ou make me feel like a natural woman ♪ ♪ natural ♪ you make me feel ♪ you make me feel ♪ ♪ like a natural woman ♪ a woman a woman

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y2x54y y16fy when you tell me that, you know, he should testify because he's going to tell the truth ano hedn't worry, that's silly because it's somebody's version of the truth. not thetruth. >> truth is truth. i don't mean to go -- >> no, it isn't truth. truth isn't trh. >> president trump's attorney offers a new explanation why he shouldn't talk to speci counsel robert mueller in the russia probe. a woman who fell from a cruise ship rescued after 10 hours in the water. nashville on edge after three people are gunned down in less than a week. could the s these crimes and others help police track down the kiowers. h one of the most popular mm