this sunday the democrats debate. joe biden responds to criticism he touchedn women i ways that though not sexual made some uncomfortable. >> i get it. i hear what they are ying. i understand. i'll be much more mindful. >> but declines to aologize ying he never meant to be disrespectful. >> i'mot sorry for any of my intentions. i'm not sorry anything i've ever done. >> and jokes about it in a public appearance. >> i just want you to know i had permission to hug lonnie. >> as the list of candidates grows, democrats debate whether biden is the right choice whether it's time for a new leaderson of >> you could argue it doesn't get more different from this president thand a l back intellectual gay mayor from the

midwest. >>his morning i'll talk toa candidate enjoying a surge in polling and media attention, soh bend mayor peteegbutti >> the border. >> it's full. you can't come in. our country is full. >> demrats demand to his taxes and the full mueller report. i'll talk to utah republican mitt romney in his first appearance as a u.s. senator. y > also, unfriending social media. ericans are fed up with twitter and facebook but just can't stay away. joining me for insight and unless are hugh hewitt, heather mcghee, democratic activist and nior fell oh at think tank and editor of daily washington newsletter jake sherman and anna palmer. welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." >> announcer: from nbc news in washington, the longest running show in television history, this is "meet the press" with chuck todd. good sunday morning.

there is a truism in american politics that has enormous plications for the 2020 presidential race. when we elect new presidents, they are in many ways the polar opposites of the outgoing president. we followed watergate soaked richard nixon with i'll never lie to you jimmy carter. when the job seemed too big for carter we repleased him with ronald confident reagan. later the buttoned down george h.w. bush before being beaten by saxophone baby boomer clinton, led to george w. bush oes shoot from the hip styleto lebama succeeded by blow the place up, donald trump. which is positioned to be best polar opposite of president trump. thereave been 14 all viewing to be that anti-trump candidate. mopping them, 37-year-old south

bend mayor pete buttigieg having the kind of momenthat may not have been seen from the democratic party since a panut farmer came out of nowhere in 1976. this week the democrat's center of gravity joe den. the issue not so much whether he's going to run but in this newoc progressive demratic party, whether he should. >> i jyost wantu to know, i had permission to hug lonnie. >> former vice president joe biden appearing before a friendly unionn audience friday joked twice about accusations by women who say he has made themuncomfortable with unwelcome though not sexual physical contact. >> by the way, he gave me permission to touch him. >> for some of his accusers, it was proof despite his video earlier this week. >> i get it, i get it. >> that biden doesn't get it. >> it was for me like a slap in the face. t. say i get it, it's i believe in women.

i advocate from women. that's not what i saw from the speech. >> afterward biden did some damage control but he did not apologize. >> i'm sorry i didn't understand more. i'm not sorry for any of my tentions. i'm not sorry for anything i have ever done. >> the controvevey is new oxygen to questions whether biden who came of age politically during the 20th century can lead an increasingly diverse democratic party in the 21st. >> do you believe the vice president should enter this race? >> he's going to have to make that decision fo himself. >> on friday biden took a shot at the new left. >> the definitio of progressive now seems to be changing. it is are you a socialist. that's a real progressive. do you believe in, you know, whatever. e bernie sanders would enter the white house as the oldest president in american history. he also outpolls trump among deself-described mtes and i understand and competitive among rust belt voters and presid pt

trump isying attention. >> i said, general, give me a kiss. i felt like joede bi > for democrats eager for a ofinee who is the antithesis donald trump, forced to apologize. sanders answering whether people on his campaign were involved in assault. >> during the campaign you didn't know about the co allegations, ect? >> i was a little busy running around the country making the case. >> beto o'rrke is commenting about his wife and sometimes raising his own kids. te buttigieg us apologizing for comments. a reminder democrats are looking high and low for an alternative to president trump. >> it'snusual for it to even

be plausible a 37-year-old midwestern mayor is giving interviews about candidate for president.g someth happening that calls for something completely different. >> joining me is the mayor of indiana who is technically still exploring a presidential bid, pete buttigieg. mr. mayor, welcome back -- welcome to "eet the press." thanks for having me on. >> we say exploring. i know you have an announcement prepared a week fromtoday. >> that's right, in south bend. looking forward to it. >> is there ano reason believe i'll not be running for president? >> no, t kif thing we're going to announce is the thing you only get to announce once hope a lot of supporters will be there in south bend. >> what es something completely different mean? i say this in this respect. donald trump ce in as the most inexperienced president in history when it came to government service, public service and things like that. while you have more executive experience than he did going into this, you also would be a

fairly edinexperie president. why should something completely different be another inexperienced politician. >> i would stack up my experience against anybody. i know it's n as traditional. haven't been polmarinating in washington and part of that establishment but i would argue being a mayor of the city ofze y eans you have to deal with the kinds of issues that really hit americans. it'sverything from infrastructure to economic development to racial sensitivities in tolicing. no mention the fact i would lso have more military experience under mlt than anybody to walk into office since george h.w. bush. i think it's about quality as well as quantity in experience. you can see clearly i'm about as different from this president as it gets. >> had you been successful in your lastld campaign you w be chairman of the democratic party. that means you wouldn't be running for president. >> that's true. in a selfish way it worked out for the best. >> what was yourn motivatioou

wanted dnc chairman now running for president. >> any time you're running forh office discernment process should look for this. you look at what the office calls i for make moment and what you bring to the table and you use that for a match. i've used thatrocess toecide to run for office several times and i've used it not run for office. i see a country going through tectonic change and an office with a loss of decency.is i'm as sur as anybody. if you would ask me two years ago what i would be doing in d 2019,'t think i would have said this. but here you have this moment, probably the only moment i american history where it just might make sense for somebody my age, comin from experience in the industrial midwest, nonfederal, different background, bringin something that the actually help americans envision the world as it will be in 205 4, the year i'll reach the current ablerr of the ct president and change the channel

from this mesmerizing horror show goinghi on in wton right now. >> i want to delve into indiana, your record in politics. you ran statewide inagndiana nst richard murdoch. he was the person who upset lugger, handed a senate seat to the demothat has since ne republican. you lost. >> it's hard for a democrat to n win statewidhe best of years. i was running in the worst of years. i'm still proud of our campaign. i s largely doing it to stand up for auto workers. richard murdoch intervened to prevent the auto rescue. he tookt to the supreme court using his standing as treasuer. it would h devastated our state. i think somebody needed to stand up to i got my head handed to me. >> what did you learn from this. you had aun of supporters that weren't ready to support you. what do you think your issue

was, youth perhaps? >> i can say i led the ticket. althoughust about all of us were somewhere in the 40% range that year. just a horrible ye to be a democrat in indiana or frankly in most places. what i really learned was campaigning. it was my first time on the ll . it was uphill to say the least. re even t of people w following treasurer's race. it's hard when peopleav't heard of you or the office you're running for. i learned fundraising, retailw and put a message together. that wound up serving me well when in south bend the se opened up, the first open seat in 24 years at exactlynt the mohen our city was looking for something different and needed a fresh start. >> i'm going to put up aup of numbers here having to do with south bend. the poverty rate is still over 25%. the eviction rate 6.7%, which is fairly high. not the highest in indiana but on the higd of indiana. obviously you've been re-elected. voters believe you put the sity in the right direction in that se. these are still tough numbers.av

what't you been able to accomplish? >> there's so much woin to do a city like ours. people know it's hometown of notre dame might summits a dastt industry when they left in the 1960s. when i oookice there were articles about whether south bend was a dying city. our poverty rate is high but down. we cut unemployment by half. we've beh able toge the trajectory of the city to where we're growing in population ved ment in a pace we haven't seen in a generation. it's not like all of our problems are involved. but i think one of the reasons n up getting re-elected with 80% of the vote is a sense that we had really changed story for our city. i think that's something the country needsheo . because you've got a president a is telling anybody from community like mine, be it industrial or rural community, anty commuhere people grow up getting this message success means you have to get out.el

he'sng us greatness is in the past. we have to stop the clock and turn it back. i'm now making the case south bend is living proof that good poll six is not one based on the word "again." >> particularly racial disparities on income equality are huge in south bend. sis is a c around the country. hand.ace this fir how much -- you haven't had much luck closing that gap. what have you tried that has e you tried t h that didn't work. >> we have it mask in the right direction. we're talking about generational poverty, generational disposition -- dispossession n that results combination of racist policies over the yeaec and the a that poverty and mass incarceration have. we're amunity about 25% african-american, about 45% nonwhite. ale lot of pe in their lives and their neighborhoods, it's almost as though the economic recovery we're et eriencing riw never happened. here is what we think is working. we're investing in neighborhoods

historicallyed dive parks and spaces supporting entrepreneurship we opened ane small bu resource center in an area that was not getting the kind of attention it needed because we know entrepreneurship will empower not just minority business owners but minority employees. we're taking steps to deal with the eviction rate, as you showed, a lot of times simply having access to legal representation makes all the om difference forody facing eviction. and we made sure that our neighborhoods were improved because the issue of blight in vacant and abandoned properties wa affecting especially minority neighborhoods. people didn't think it would be done but we concentrated resources. you said in 2015, the rise of the black lives matter movement that tre needs to be racial reconciliation. yes. >> where does that responsibility lie and what have

you done. >> it lies with all of us. if you're a mayor of a city the flash point is the relationship between the police department and neighborhoods. we worked with getting our police officers to almt have city councilmembers do foot patrols, walk the neighborhoods, to show up not just when there's an emergency but a fun fair, block party, trying to thicken those relationships. a lot of it is quality time. when we've had amont or incident that tried to divide us racially in the city we made sure we invest in the face time it takeres to tablish trust. at the end of the day people needtro see st. that's how trust is built. that's one of the things i worry about yonationally. have folks in charge of the government who almost believe as a matter of principle in i destroying when you don't have results, see people's lives getting better, ther motivates people to want to bring the house down. >> last month somespi.c.e. atre arrested two of your

constituents in south bend. what do you make of the idea of the bol issue i.c.e. movement hat some people in the progressive end of the spectrum have called for? i know it's illegal to be a sanctuary city in indiana but gary has pushed the envelope. why haven't you? >> so we have worked very hard toe a welcoming city because the current immigration policies are just wrong. people w are really important parts of our community are being tornom apart f their families. this is not making us safer. it is not making user stro. now, when it comes to i.c.e., i don't care what the agencn charge of our agency and border enforcement is called, i care what does. as long as you have an agency, even if you get rid of i.c.e. and called it something else,in ordered to tear families apart from one another or being ordered to make it hardero get on path to citizenship, you're going to continue to have hetbreaking stories that are not helping anybody, whether we're talking about the undocumented immigrants concerned or whether you're talking about the communities th are part of.

>> i want to move a little bit to where you stan in the party. you heard joe biden. he said, boy, the definition of progressive now seems to be changing. heays nowt's about whether you're a socialist or what's a real progressive. i knowyo have been somebody trying to push back on this whole labeling issue but put s urself on the spectrum here. what should democre in you. what do you want democrats to see in you idealogically >> i think i a progressive. >> a capitalist? >> melook,ca is a capitalist society but it's got to be democratic capitalism. that part really important and it's slipping away from us. in other words, when capitalism comes into tension with democracy, which is more important to you? i believe i democra more important. when you have capitalism capturing deocracy, when you have the kind of regulatory capture where powerful corporatns are able to arrange the rules for their benefit, that's not real capitalism. if you want to see what happens when you haveut capitalism wit

democracy, you can see it very clearly in russia. it turns into crony capitalism and that turns into oligarchy. i know the temptation from the area is align everybody as dots on a speck utrum but that's not how voters think. think mathematically in saint joe, indiana, who must have voted for obama and mike pence and me. there's a lot more to this than ideological analysis especiallyi withology scrambled having a president that doesn't have ideology just astyle. a hostile takeover of the republican party while democratic party has only been able to explain its ideology by comparing to republicans for the better part of my lifetime. >> you said the president it's hard to look at his actio and believe he believes in god. how do you square that with the evangelicals? >> it's something that frustrates me because the

hypocrisy is unbelievable. here you have somebody tt not only acts in a way that's not consistent with anything i hear in scripture, lifting up those among us, immigrants, focusing your efforts on the poor b personally how you're supposed to conduct yourself not look at me-ism but humbling yourself among others. foot washing is a central image in the new testament. we see the diametricpo te of that in this presidency. i think there was a cynical procesdewhere heded to, for example, pretend to be pro-life and govern accordingly which was good enough to m bringny evangelicals over to his side. ut even on the version of christianity that you hear from the religious right, which is about sexual hics, i candlelight believe that somebody writing hush money checks to adult film actresses is somebody they should be lifting up as the kind of person who should be leading this

nation. >> you grew up in the arguably the most famous catholic town in the country. m curious on abortion. i know what your stance is. you have a place pro-life democrats that don't get courted nationally anymore. how do you square that and what is yourdefinition. when does life begin? is there any role for government in abortion. >> as someoneic pro-c but someone with many friends and supporters that see itth differentl i do. it begins with good faith. people arrive on their convictions often from deeply felt and sincerely held place. in my view, this is a question esat is almost unknowable, a moral on settled by science. the best way to be settled in practice is by theo person actually faces the choice. when a woman is facing this decision in her life, i think in

terms of somebody beside her most useful, t answer to that would be a doctor, not a male government official imposing his interpretation of his religion. >> the final question i want to ask you about, the amendment. you come from a second amendment state. some might argue whatever that means to folks. do you think the second amendment i as's written prevents gun control the way the supreme court sys it does? >> i don't think it has to. we've already decided within the framework of the second amendment we're going to draw a line. shall not be infringed clearly doesn't mean you'r entitle to a nuclear weapon. some between a sling shot and nutoear weapon we're going draw a line about what makes sense. the same way my righto free speech doesn't include yelling fire in a theater, my right to swin my fist where somebody's nose begins. a society can live by and honor the lifestyle of sporting, which is where so many family bonds

are crea jd,t a deep part of our tradition and the idea that people should be equipped to defend themselves if they need to. >> unfortunately i have to leave itthere. pete buttigieg, thanks for being on. stay safeon the trail. i look forward to asking you other questions. wet didn't to foreign policies. >> i'll take that as an invite. >> it is an invite. cwhen weme back joe biden, could he behe candidate least could he behe candidate least rmy insurance rates are probably gonna double.

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[zara larsson - "wow"] ♪ ♪ baby i'm not even in a gown ♪ and the only thing u have to say is wow ♪ ♪ make you're jaw drop drop say oh my drop drop drop ♪ ♪ make u say oh my god my drop drop ♪ ♪ make you're jaw drop make u say oh my god ♪ ♪ and you never felt this type of emotion ♪ ♪ make you're jaw drop drop say oh my drop drop drop ♪ ♪ make u say oh my god my drop drop ♪ ♪ make you're jaw drop make u say oh my god ♪ welcome back. panelist here hughhewitt, heather mcghee, veteran of presidential campaigns past and senior feow at think tank and two from "politico" who write r second favorite newsletter playbook. senior washington and senior writer jake sherman. more importantly jake and anna author of the very readable new book, the hill to die on, the

hill, of course, being capitol hill. we're going to get to your book in a little bit. this simply is the longest interview i've had with mayor pete. heher, this is your side of the spectrum, how did he do? what do you think? >> i think he did great. he's a very impressive persona rhodes holar, navy veteran, a year younger than mend already run a city. >> he's 10 years younger than me and i'm going what the hell have i done. >> i think in the moment when we're finding out who is pete. next we need to find out what's he going to do with american families. voters are interested in the biography, how will you change the life ofch my dren? how will you help me afford college, that type of thing. we're at a breaking point in this country. people need to see demonstrable change in their shot at the american dream. that's why they are askingor candidates platforms. that's something that's not yet part of his story. it's not on his website. what are the ideas.

>> the path theresidency gos through in the rust belt. it has, it will this time, the rust belt. >> best profile deindustrialization of the midwest in his bones. i think that's true. this was another hurdle crossed for mayor pete. i've been following him closely. he worries me from a republican standpoint. i would like to have 20 deagcrats on the ste with 5% dech. right now bernie s is going to be the front-runner by money. you've got the vice president and you've got this rocket ship coming up. the ability to give a good interview and hold the attention of the american people. i always said donald trump is the very best interview in erica because he hol the attention of the audience and remains the very best intervie rica but i think mayor pete might give him a run. >> the other end of the ageum specs joe biden. it is interesting to mand dan bowles tackled that this morning, gets us to he literally is a 21st century democrat and we're having this debate whether biden is 21

century enough. >> clearly you saw pete buttigie lean into the fact of his age and drawing a stark contrast subtly. >> what did he say 2054 i'll be the same age as the president >> exactly. i think what you see on the biden front and clearly for the last week plusi feels he needs to put some more oil in the machine there in terms of whathe response is, how slow it was. is he made for the campaign of 2020? right now i think tre's some big questions there. >> i think he hasn't gotten in, which is stunning to me. if he were in the race, joe biden and out giving such speeches every day he would be able to talk about something besides theseor allegations else he could address it and move on. he's not t race for reasons that are not clear to me and it gives a vacuum for someone like mayor pete to get in, shape the dialogue, shape the debate and say we need somebody of this generation. >>e's still leading the latest polls average 7 points. >> he being joe biden. joe biden. the reason is this sense of ta

ellity. democratic primary voters said by 20 points i'd rather haveme e who will win than someone who wants the country that i want,ho has the same ideology as me. that's huge. that's about the nightmare of to not wanting ake up to an electoral college victory of donald trump again. we need to change electable. we have voted for change, disrupting the status quo every time we've had the chance since the financial crash. i don'think joe biden represents the kind of change particularly younger voters, the biggest bloc 2020 need to see. >> i want to go back to one thing mayor pete told you. he would enter with more military experience than george h.w. bush, unless seth gets in as a 9/11te n. that's impressive. every american ought to respect that even if they aren't going to vote for him. that sets him apart from heerybody else on democratic platform even bernie ahead on money and enthusiasm. 's worth noting and deserves

respect. >> i'm curious, matthew from washington free becon wrot something interesting comparing him to the rest of the field. i find him interesting what he reveals about the democratic field upstaged k3458z, amy klobuchar, cory booker and others dreaming ofhis minute. enjoying his 15 minutes because even the most talented of these elected officials have yet to stand out. fair shot, jake? >> absolutely. i think voters don't want washington. we saw that with donald trump. an have orst thing you as senator. >> that's probably right. this guy has run a city. has he a story tell that doesn't include going to the floor of the senateor clochure votes. >> i think he would say the worth pbl right. >> americans love the underdog. the media loves an underdog. he comes into the race. i n't think anybody took h seriously, thinking he was going to be a top contender at all. he's kind of this rocket ship,a as you just wondering, can he keep that

momentum. that's the question i have. >> i want to switch a little bit, frank got to this, mayor peteriticized is he gay enough, kamala harris, is she 'sack enough. this argument th going on in the party, perhaps -- here is barack obama. let's play president obama on this yesterday, believe it or not, and see what he says about this. >> one of the things i do worry about sos among progressives in the united states, maybe it's true here as well is a certain kd of rigidity where we see, i'm sorry, this is how it's going to be. then we start sometimes creating what's called a circular firing squad. >> heather, i thought stacey abms said the other y, there's the line ayatollah evth is searchi for forgiveness with accountability.

that seemsd to to be the strug forgiveness with accountability. >> we're right now evolving what the democratic party is. ople who do focus groups say all the time republicans very people know what they are voting for with republicans. democrats you basically have to have everyone else. what you're eing with th huge primary, debates about identity, a recognition that identity shapesyour experience in this country. for most people how you look, your identity who you love shapes how people treat you and the circumstances you have. so it doeser ma >> is president obama right, though? could this get too rinl i hgid left? >> absolutely. it extremely rigid on the right. people not being able to talk about anything other than pro nuclear weapon on the streets. the second amendment fundamentalism on the right wing is very strong. at the same time i do think these are important debates. i think people want to kn what they are going to do for the country. >> all right. thank you. we're going to pauset here.

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most republican office holdersh been reluctant, even a bit scared, to criticizetr presiden p, not mitt romney. just two days before he took the oath as a new senator from utah, mitt romney wrote this, "presidential leadership and qualities of character is indispensable. it is in this province where the incumbent shortfall has been stun hng. he sayss tougher on illegal immigration than the president. mitt romney joins me now from salt lake city in hi first "meet the press" appearance as senator romney. in fact, w were just debating do you prefer governor or senator, still. >> the term governois always better but i guess i've got to go by my current title senator. mitt is just fine. >> we nef met senator that didn't miss being governor. let me sta withhat the president said about immigration and asylum seekers. here it is,sir. >> this is our new statement.

the system is full. can't take you anymore. whether it's asylum, whetheit anything you want, illegal immigration, can't take you ymore. can't take you. our country is full. >> it's a little jarring to hear an american president say our country is full given the history of the united states of how did you take that >> well, we've seen a dramatic shift in the nature of illegal on and immigration just over the last few weeks. a number of years ago and up until ju a few weeks ago, the great majority of people coming into our country were coming lookingor work. single men and oftentimes returned at the border, sent back home to mexic in the last few weeks there's been a dramatic change. that is we're seeing unaccompanied young people as well as families with lots of kids pouring into the border and they say the magic word, i'm seeking asylum. by virtue of ourawse bring

them into the country. we don't begin to have enough space in the facilities to maintain the kinde of c these people deserve, so they are being turned out intour country, 125,000 of them so far this year. it is overwhelming our sys tm. we've go be able it deal with this in a way. it's going to take some legislation to get itfixed. hat's what i'm curious about. how would you handle this. the president threatened to impose on mexico,n tariff car if they don't help with the border, shipped to mexico,re ened foreign aid to three central american countries where alese people are fleeing. it'sd a carrot and stick approach for a reason. he'sr onlyiding sticks. he doesn't seem to have a carroy hereere. >> well, i think whether or not has to happen is an effortfor republicans and democrats to come together generally with presidential leadership. that's what's going to be essential to get us all together. >> i heard your hesitation there. does he have the credibility to

do ts? >> well, h does. he has the capacity to bring together the top edemocrats, top republicans and sit down and say, okay, what can we do legislatively to make sure we're not creating extraordinary asylum magnet into the country. in my opinion, the democrats are making a huge error by making border security an issue and saying it's a partisan issue. look, this is an american issue. we can't u have millionson millions of people flooding into our country without a border that's hosecure, w i.c.e. making sure people here illegally are sent back. this is a winning issue i think for republicans but more importantly it's a winning issue oor americans to say we have to have thereignty of our nation. i think the president has tapped into something which people feel very deeply. >> one of the things you said it you'd gher on illegal immigration than president trump, your positions. give me ane example wh you feel as if you're tougher on this than he is. >> well, i wasto refer a time

some years ago when i was running for president and noted i was no in favor of the dream act. the president support earlier in 2017 giving the daca individuals legal residency. point.eferring to that >> are you still against the dream act? >> well, it's been put in placea by president ond i believe we have a responsibility to fulfill what is a presidential pledge and commitment. so that's in the past. i would provide legal status for those dreamers in the country. that's something that the president has put on the table. i think we should get that job done and hope we will get that job done. overall we npld to ce the border fence. we need to have a system that keeps peop from getting jobs here if they are here illegally. that's an e-verify system and then we've got to deal with the lmingm issue that's overw our system. >> let me move to health care. to me it's a moreattrickier sin given you won

re-election, i believe -- excuse me, you won election ine utah me ballot that a majority of your constituents wanted to see medicaid expanded. so what would you do now with health care? would you scrap the system we have an build from scratch, or do you take the obamacare infrastructure, which many will note was modelled in some ways h off of you did in massachusetts, and try to reform from there? >> well,gi let's by putting it in context, which is obamacar applies to about 20, maybe 25% of the population. for 75 to 80% of thepopulation, we get our insurance through our employer or through medicare or through traditional medicaid. so obamacare is just 20, 25% of the population. right now with obamacare, that's a federal program. i think what you're going to see from republicans is a federal-state partnership l ere the fedevernment sets the parameters and the states are given more flexibility to crea

ways to care for their own low individuals. so i think federal-state partnership is a much wiser way a number of senators are working on those kind of ideas. i know the white house is as well. i think you're going to see proposals coming from our side that say, look, we can make the ocurrent system private insurance, which 75, 80% of americans have, we can keep that in place, get costs down, more flexibility andobacare needs to be repealed. by the way, democrats agree with us. withey agree us on getting rid of obamacare. they are calling for medicare for all. medicare for all wipes out obamacare. >> the irony is not lost. i'm waiting for r publicans to start defending obamacare as toings move on, honestly. i want ask you about the medicaid decision by constituents. the legienature wants to tig what your constituents wanted. is that the right call? >> the legislature in utah said, look we want to make sure if we're going to expand our

medicaid population, we're going to only do s as long as the federal government is picking up 90% of thebill. if the federal government decides to back off the 90% number, then we the state legislature don't want to pick up the bill. think it's aasonable position the legislature has taken. >> you are very aggressive in getting candidate donald trump to try to release his tax returns. he now wan to fight this effort by congress all the way to the supreme court. while i can maybe understand h wants to do it on privacy grounds, he still doesn't want to show the country his tax returns. how problematic is that? >> well, i'd p like thesident to follow through and show his tax returns. he said he would, i think it was on the "today" show, he said he would release tax returns. i have to also tell you i think the democrats are playing along his handbook, which is going after his tax returns through a legislative actionis moronic. that's not going to happen. the courts are not going to say

you can compel a person running for office to release their tax returns. so he's goingin to this victory. he wins them time after time. the green newdeal, all these candidates out there talking about getting rid of obamacare and traditional health care and putting in place medicare, these things are just nstarters. i think the democratic party is finding itself in a real difficult positi with those nd of positions. >> very quickly, it is coming up to an election year. jeb bush who ran for president in 2016, he saiden ry he thinks it would be healthy for the republican party some somebody cha to have a real debate about what ymore.servative he's for higher deficits, you're for lower deficits. he's for tariffs, you're not a tariff guy.on could argue trump and romney present the contrastf the two different views of. differenci >>f- conservatism. >> there are differences.

i was in the president's office and said i disagreed with steel and aluminum tariffs. i said i'm overwhelmingly in avor of what you're doing on china. can you get as hard as you want to get pushing back on china. i think you can also say the president has followed republican playbook when it comes to domestic economy, lowering taxes, lowering gulation. the kpli is doing well. hard not to recognize that's a strong record. time will tell. parties do just fine when there's a primary. >> mitt romney, now senator from utah. in the halls of congress we'll ll you governor, i promise.mi thanks for c on for an interview. >> thank you. >> iant tonote the passing of the south carolina democrat's believe it or not for 36 of his 38 years in the senate he wasly actuhe state's junior senator to stromthurmond. hollings began his political

career as a segregationi and became a moderate even supported jesse jackson for president in he was for his quick wit no1988. and sharp tongue. >> >> we've been playing games both sides, read our lips. the country is doing well. we don't ha any problems. just we politicians have a problem. fritz hollings was 97. mcast business built the nation's largest gig-speed network. then went beyond. beyond chasing down network problems. to knowing when and where there's an issue. beyond network complexity. to a zero-touch, one-box world. optimizing performance and budget. beyond having questions. to getting answers. "activecore, how's my network?" "all sites are green." all of which helps you do more than your customers thought possible. comcast business. beyond fast.

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welcome back, data download time. our latest "wall street journal" poll says americans feel pretty good about technology but the same cannot be said about social media. the majority of americans say positive towd apple, google 63 and amazon, 56%. look what they think about social media, less than quarter have positive feelings aboutwitter and facebook. a squo pread rity believes they lies and false hoods.

57 say they divide us and a whopping percent say it's wastes our time. a majority of republicans and democrats agree t all ofose points. given all of that sceptism and distrust, 69% of all americans still use social media once a day or more. when we come back, does when we come back, does president trump need ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

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. back now with end game and just a fantastic book by our friends jake and anna, the high to die on. you have a lot of fun anecdotes. i don't have to do expletive deleted. >> pg 13. >> wenn you cover pres trump you have to have a rating. the president periodically engaged all out arguments leaving them bitter and per terd. in one tweet, told quit tweets about crowd size. who the [ expletive ] are you? he did say he had the biggest inauguration ever. it struck me this anecdote when i was talking to senator romney about how dvees he h credibility to convene on the hill, what is the resident's

credibility on capitol hill? >> i think it's mixed. what we decided to do w the camera around. we thought there was enough coverage of trump asdi an dual person, we wanted to see how congress as a system reacted to the wepresident. ave a lot of anecdotes like this about the president getting into huge arguments with members of congres and his style behind the scenes. we were given extraordinary access by leading me ers of congress to capture these incredible moments of a guy who had never been in government in his life, how he would interact with members of congress, many of whom had been in government their entire life. >> i going tolay a phone conversation you guys got between trump and pelosi after the first infamous chuck and nay moment, daca forthe wall, everybody is in love with trump, chuck, and nancy. apparently trump calls pelosi and, hey, nance trump said to pelosi on a private phone call. great to be with you. you and check getting rave reviews. me, i'm okay. your two friends referring to paul ryan and mitch mcconnell, not so good.

the country need add dose of this. th o is whethnot drives republicans on capitol hill bonkers. >> absolutely. i think what the book really illustrates is how oft the government wants to do deals with nancy pelosi and chuck schumer,le two pe he's very familiar with for the past 20 years. i think this is just another example of republicans thinking he's got to leave us high and dry on any occasionwhen he thinks there could be a deal done. he's not interested in the substance. >> heather, i have to think when you hear that on the one hand, donald trump the individual i think does want to cut deals with whoever. but he doesn't idealogically gulook like a ready to cut deals. >> no, because he's always looking back ats.ox n >> roped back in or whatever that is. >> most importantly he knows ,is econo even though it's doing great for headlines is still not working for are most americans. he uses the scapegoats of immigrants, poor people, black i families, th what he does time and time again. it is a more broad republican playbook than president trump but he's mastered it, divide and conquer and districts from american pening in

families. >> hugh, when you read their book, you sit there and think it is unbelievable how little he's gotten through congress. when you read the y book understand why. >> he has gotten through 37 court appointees and judges. >> i'm talking about stuff. >> supreme court justices. >> partisan warfare. he's not gotten a big deal, big. legislat everything he's done is on a partisan basis. he can't figure out howto do things. >> the best quote, the hill to die on, quoting president trump saying there are ratings for everything. president trump, and you guys capturethis, is very aware that every day is a struggle for attention and rat approval. that's captured. so he doesn't need to get anything through the hill other than those things that generate ratings for him on the primary side in the general election. >> by the way, going back to immigration. it seems to me immigration for him is a 2020 crunch. he doesn't want aolution yet. he needs the issue. is that the way capitol hill is

responding? >> i don't think anybody believes there's going to be an immigratn deal before the 2020 election. i don't think democrats -- it's helpful to democrats in terms o turning e base, getting people riled up, about actually kind of framing the debate as a contrast to the president. >> back on planetrt president trump has rejected two major immigration deals he could have had with democrats and that his pars ported. so the president has been all over the map on this issue. we catalog in the hill to die on has en close chuck schumer and paul ryan. he's been all over the place on this issue. >> heather, what do democrats need to say on the border? do you think they candvocate open borders? >> open borders is a framing from the right wing, fox news, that has never been the democratic position. >> what do you say? >> democratic position has been for almost 20 years now, a path to citizenship, a hmane and legal way for people desperate to become american citizens to doso. things like the dream act. i was surprised to hear mitt

romney sort of capitulate on the agreement act. this is enormously popular en th most republican voters. this country has always been a country that has said you are an amouican ifome here, work hard. we used to have racial quotasn immigration, people come in, get off a boat and walk into t country. this new paradigm we have a very criminalizedys immigrationm is contrary to what i think most americans want. >> hugh, should the president's campaign team at all look at the results inarizona new mexico and texas in 2018 and get a little nervous about the border. >> should look at doug ducey and see what he's done on the border, which is work to fix every problem. there is a role problem at the border. 125,000 people i believe last month. it's a genuine crisis. i'm the last optimist. >> create office -- >> i believe this is out of the el salvador and nezuela and the sooner maduro is gone, they

havegot to get a solution because it's a genuine crisis. >> thank you, foguys. we go, do you wonder what we talk o about the panel after "meet the press" is over. the new and improved podcast, the toddcast because dad humor works here. i'll let you in on what we're thinking about 2020 and more. stuff better left unsaid on television. you subscribe to chuck toddcast wherou get your podcast. that's all for today. thank you very much for watching. we'll be back next week because if it's sunday, it's "meet the press."