this sunday, immigration crisis. democrats denounce conditions at migrant detention centers in texas. >> what we saw wodayas unconscionable. the whole system is broken.o it's got te fixed. >> and in florida. s not temporary housing. it's a prison camp. and president trump has an answer for them. >> you know how it could be taken care of? number one, tell them not to come because it's illegal. >> what's the solution? this morning, i'll talk to a democrat who has long called for centers like tse to be shut down, senator jeff merkley of oregon. nd to the only republican congressman representing any part of the border, will hurd of texas. plus, senator kamala harris stays on offense, joe biden concedes.

he was wrong to seem to praise segregationist senators. >> i regret it. i'm sorry for any of theain or misconception it may have caused anybody. >> as scrutiny of democratic candidates intensify, i'll talk to presidential candidate, senator amy cklobuchar. and americans debate immigration, how to celebrate the fourth, even what it means to bean an americ joining me for insight and analysis are nbc news white house correspondent peter alexander, kimberly atkins, senior washington news correspondent for wbur in ston, jonah goldberg, and shawna thomas. welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." >> the longest running show in televion history, this is "meet the press" with chuck todd. good sunday morning, and happy july 4th weekend. this holiday is traditionally a unifying event, celebrating the

codetry's indepene and the pride that comes with being an american. this week we witnessed a debate about what it means to be an american. we saw democratilawmakers denounce the conditions in detention centers, filled with undocumented immigrants hoping to become americans some day. and we saw president trump tweet, if illegal immigrants run happ -- are unhappy with the conditions, just tell them not to come. all problems solved. we saw a fight over how to count americans with president trump insisting on including a citizenship question on the census. and opponentsg arguin that's nothing more than an attempt to reduce the number ofen represtatives in congress for hispanic americans and democrat we even saw two separate july 4th celebrations on the washington mall with pro-trump crowds gathering to hear the president's speech at lincoln to orial and those choosin ignore mr. trump's speech, gathering by the u.s. capitol. collectively, these incidentsra illust the growing divisions in this country. perhaps none of those issues are more urgent right now than the migrant crisis at the border

with lots of cllenges and very few answers. >> i think they do a great job with those facilities, but you know how it could be taken care of? number one, tell them not to come because it's illegal. >> reporter: pres ent trump on friday responding to a report by the department of homeland security's independent watchdog that warns of dangerous overcrowding and prolonged detention at border facilities in south texas. inspectors say 88 men were crammed into this cell with a capacity of just 41 people. children at several of the no access to showers or hot meals. a third of the children at the facilities were held for more than three days, in violation of federal law. last week acting homeland security secretary denied that conditions at border facilities had deteriorated. >> unsubstantiated allegations last week regarding a single border facility created a sensation. >> reporter: but lawyers have described deplorable conditions where children are left without access to soap, clean water,

showers, clean clothing, toilets, toothbrushes, adequateo nutrition, adequate sleep. this photo was taken byco ngressman joaquwa joaquin castr. >> we saw that the system is still broken and that people's human rights are still being abused. >> no child should ever be taken from their family. no woman should ever be locked up in a pen when they have done no harm to another human being. >> reporter: justice department attorneys have argued in court that those conditions are lawful. >> if you on't have a toothbrush, if you don't have so , if you don't have a blanket, it's not safe and sanitary. wouldn't everybody agree to that? do you agree to that? >> well, i think it's -- i thins thare -- there's fair reason to find that those things may be part o safe and sanitary. >> not may be.

are. >> reporter: the new reports have sparked protests around the country from texas to south florida to washington, d.c. last week congress passed $4.5 billion in new funding, but it failed to include oversight provisions supported by some house and senate democrats. >> i've seen some of those places, and they are run beautifully. they are clean. they're good. they do a great job. >> and joining me this morning are democratic senator jeff merkley of oregon, who's long called for centers holding ildren to be shut down. he'll be joining us from portland. and from san antonpr, reentative will hurd, the only republican congressman who represents a district on the u.s./mexico border. senator merkley, i'd like to h art our conversation witu. you've been a leading voice on this before others had. you had made pilgrimages these centers before others had gone down there. why hasn't anything changed, and why has it gotten worse? >> well, i tell you, when i hear

a member of the administration say that the reports on the conditions are unsubstantiated, i'm just like, what world are they living in?ca bee we've had the inspector general, who worked for these dv departments, do these reports. we've had journalists do extensive interviews and report on t we've had the flores settlement agreement lawyers who have special access go in and report on theti cons. from every direction, you see that the children are being manner, in a horrific and there's an underlying philosophy that it's okay to treat refugees in this fashion. and that's really the r a the core of the administration's policy. >> senator merkley, what whald en if we could get our cameras in there? i mean, i don't mean to be this crass about it, but are pictures what are missiere for action? >> well, certainly we have a visual picture from these various reports. an actual camera might make a

difference. >> why is the ministration not allowing -- because that, to me, is a sort of -- potentially comes across as why do they prevent -- why do they take your cell phones if you're a member of congress going in there? they clearly are afraid of pictures. why? >> well, it's because pictures portray a very graphic representation that people can't argue with. so they don't want that information out. i will say, though, the conditions are probably always better when members of congress visit. they've required extensive notice in advance. they clean up the facilities. they decrease the number of people there. so that's why it's valuable to have an inspector general who can drop in at moment's notice and who works for the administration to give a report. but let's think abouthat settlement or the bill that was just passed. it did nothing to change theoc blde of children at the border being left in mexico. it did nothing to change the for-profit system of homestead where 3200 children capacity,

the largest child prison in american history, is being established. the company is paid $750 a day to lock up children, no incentive to get them into homes. this process of the brutalization of refugees and particularly children is part of a philosophy of saying if we treat them like this, we'll discourage them from coming. there's just no ethical framework or religious tradition that allows you to mistreat khildren in this fashion. >> let me as you this. thent presi seems to say -- this is what he tweets, and ym curious if take him at his word. he seems to say that if democrats will agree to his changes in the asylum laws, that he'll perhaps, you know, move on this issue. democrats must change the loophole and aie lumbsylum laws they probably won't. they want open borders, which means massive crime ands. drug are there changes to the law that you would agree to? >> well, let's get rid of the

myth that democrats are for open borders. we've supported border security. that's a red herring thrown in there. but the change they want is to get rid of the flores settlement agreement that says you can only lock up children for three days and you need to move them into a state licensed childcare facility or into a home. there is no way under any set of conditions that democrs are going to support the indefinite lockup of children. we know from all the child experts thatoe this traumatic injury, that that trauma can lifelong effects. it's a horrific strategy on their part, on the part of the administration, and e answer on that is absolutely not. flores, in fact, needs to be applied to the influx facilities like homestead where it's not being applied currently. so we need to expand that application, not eliminate it. >> look,t feels as if we're in this stalemate here where he's -- if the president's not going to budge on this, congressional republicans are

likely not going to move. they would move if he's willing to move. we've seen that politically on some other issues. hlk me through how this is going to -- do you fix this? how do you expedite this? it just seems to me we're in a cul-de-sac here. >> well, we are trapped. we're trapped between a philosophy thate sayss discourage immigration by mistreating refugees and an argument that let's be a country, as we have often been, that treats migrants and refugees with respect. it doesn't mean that they're able to tay. it's very hard to go through this process. most applicants are turned down. but there's no reason to tmistreat individuals asy're awaiting an asylum hearing. i don't know how we can get to that core change unless we have some r leadership froms republicside congress who say enough is enough. >> i want to get you to respond to something that j johnson,

president obama ee's secretary meland security, wrote in "the washington post." he said, we cannot, as some democratic candidates for president now propose, publicly embrace thno policy to deport those who enter our remain in this country illegally unless they commit a crime. this is tantamount to a public declaration repeated and amplifd by smugglers in central america that our borders are effectively open to all. how do you respond to secretary johnson's critique that the idea of decriminalizing coming over the border feeds into notion that, yeah, it's open borders? >> well, p administration, it's a civil offense, not a criminal offense. that's the distinction they're speaking of. that doesn't mean you get to stay in the united states indefinitely. you still go through an asylum hearing. weamaintain the fly case management program where 99% to 100% of families showed up for their asylum hearings. they were treatedith respect

and dignity. if they established their case, they're able to stay. if not, they' deported. in between, they're treated as fellow human beings who are fleeg difficult circumstances. and they're treated with respect and decency. >> before i go, one political question for you, senator merkley. four years ago, this is what you wrote about bernie sanders when you endorsed him for president. it is time to recommitse oures to that vision of a country that measures our nation's success, le, but oardroom t kitchen tables across america. bernie sanders stands for that america. so i stand with bernie sanders for president. you have not endorsed this time. there wasa reference thi morning in the "new york times" that you probably have heard about that senator sanders hasn't even called you to ask for your support again. where do you stand on the presidential race? >> well, we have a lot of capable individuals who are urunning who doerstand the kitchen table, and i'm really looking forward to them laying out that vision, getting america excited about returning to the fundamentals of taking on health care and housing and education,

infrastructure, living wage jobs, the things that have been incredibly neglected and set aside by tn.s administratio >> so why not sanders this time? >> well, i feel that there are many capable individuals who are making tses ca and i'm looking forward to hearing each of them lay it it's both the vision that you have and your ability to carry that vision into the momentum that allows you to make these changes once you're in office. i think a robust debate among these individuals is -- this is no longer hilly clinton and bernie sanders. hillary clinton is not a e. candidat we have a different set of cards this time, and i'm looking forward to hearing from all of them. >> all right. senatolejeff merk democrat from oregon, thank you for coming on and sharing wyour views. >> thank you. >> let me turn for anher perspective. congressman will hurd of texas. as i said, the only republican representing any part of the border. u're joining me from san antonio. nice to see you, sir. happy july 4th weekend.

>> thanks, chuck. i appreciate being on. >> let me start with what the inspector general's report said of these border facilities. serious overcrowding, 31% of children held longer than 72 hours, adults have been given wet wipes to maintain personal hygiene. some single adults were held in standing room only conditions. th's just the government and what they've admitted here. as you know, in the "new york times" today, the facility in clint, texas, in your district, here's their description. the stench of the children's dirty clothing was so strong, it spread to the agents' own clothing. the children cried constantly. one girl seemed likely enough to try to kill herself the agents made her sleep on a cot in front of them so they could watch her as they were processing new arrivals. congressman, i know you're not happy with these conditions either, but at this point, do w need tstop this, and how do we

stop it? >> in that "new york times" report, that's the agents telling "the new york times" reporter. these facilities shouldn't hold anybody for any length of time, let alone children. we should be handling people with care anhe humanity w they are in our custody. but the ig report, which you were talking about, that came ouuli think on j 3rd, there was also an ig report in may talking about tese facilities were not prepared for the load that they were having to deal with. and these are temporary facilities, and unfortunately the solution here is we need i.de. hhs to have additional resources, especially when it comes to caring for children. hhs is the federal entity designed to handle children. border patrol, because of the flores settlement, is supposede to havese children ready to transfer within 72 hours. right now they're having them rey within 42 hours. but i.c.e. and hhs doesn't have

the capacity in order to take folks. and it's unfortunate, you knowy when many of colleagues on the other side of the aisle voted against an amendment that i put orward, about $2llion more for hhs to deal with this crisis. they voted against that. i tried to get 100 more judicial teams. because the backlog of these immigration caseswe have 900,000 people that are still trying to get through the system. we should be able to get an immigration case done within nine months. they voted against judicial -- increasing the judges. er>> but isn't the issue he that the democrats have not really with your amendment but lack of trust with the trump administration. they don't -- you cod make strong argument that the decision to pull aidromhecountr which i know you're a hu critic of, but to pull that aid, to createn, family separatio they've made the problem worse. so the lack of trust that they

can handle this when you have ai admiration that clearly is micromanaging things. i would sit here and say,ve do u ha confidence in the leadership, but everybody is acting. there's no confirmed member anywhere it seems in this process. >> chuck, that'sbsolutely a problem. the number of acting folks, are they willing to make tough decisions when we needto. so yes, there is a lack of trust between congressional democrats and the executive branch, but that doesn't change the reality that we're dealing with right now. facilities, people that are overwhelmed. border patrol is not -- they were trained in order to handle children like this. they weren't trained for the medical issues that they're seeing. they were trained to be in between our ports of entry and grab people and appr aend people th coming into our country illegally. but some of the things that we need to do to fix this, i've sa many times, we should nominate and select a special

representative for the lerthern triael salvador, guatemala, and honduras, to work with those threecountries on e root causes, which is violence, extreme poverty, and opportunity.omic we should be making sure that usaid and state department resources -- we shouldn't be decreasi t resources them. >> but congressman, you' at odds with the administration here. they seem to have no interest in that. how do you convince -- >> that's why i'm -- >> dont the presieach out to you for advice on this or no? >> he hasn't reached out personally, but i he many conversations with folks throughout the administration. i'm going to continue to articulate the solutions. you know, the other thing we're not focusing on, not enough people are focusing on is human smuggling. i spent almost a decade as an undercover officer in the cia. i chased terrorist goups like al qaeda, prevented intelligence services from stealing our secrets, put nuclear weapon

prolive rpr proliferators out ofin buss. we have their phone numbers. we have license plates of buses weat have moved people to el paso. eed to make sure that countering human smuggling is a national intelligence priority so we have thecia, the nsa, the fbi working with our allies in those countries to stop those root causes there. they're the ones that are facilitating these perilous journeys for young women, for kids, and for thesea flies. and we're not putting nearly enough attention on that in order to dismanle the infrastructure that is moving people here illegally. also, we should be streamlining legal immigration, right? i had a proposal, it was the only bipartisan immigration proposal out there to streamline legal immigration so people that want to come -- you know, the united states of ameri has benefitted from the brain drain of every other country for the last couple decades. let's benefit from the hard working. let's do it legally. >> okay. let me ask you about the census

and the supreme court decision and then thepresident's attempt essentially to go arou the supreme court. where are you on the citizenship question? donk you thit should have been added or not? >> well, i think that the supreme court has ruled. i think we can't wait. ke need to ma sure we accurately count everybody. an accurate count is important for cities, for counties. >> so you are against -- sounds like you're against the citizenship question becausit could lead to a miscount. >> well, we don't want there to be a miscount for sure.er evody needs to be counted. i'm also concnedthat does the census bureau have the right capabilities to protect the information that is being collected. you know, i used to serve on the committee that oversaw this in congress. there were problems with their cybersecurity defense. so we have a lot of broader problems. so let's -- the supreme court

has ruled. let's move forward. we shouldn't stall the census, and we need to make sure that the information we're collecting is protected. >> i want to ask you about somebody who you have voted with a few ytimes, againstr own party. that's justin amash. here's what he wrote on independence day, declaring his independence. the founders envisioned congress as a deliberative body in which outcomes are discovered. we're fast approaching the point, however, where congress exists as little more than a formality to legitimize outmes dictated by the president. number one, is he right, and t have youught about leaving the republican party? >> it's unfortunate that justin believes that the party is not big enough for his posn and his ideas. i think the republican party should be a broad party. i shouldn't be the only african-americanepublican in e house of representatives. >> you had a pretty colorful quote to the washington blade where your advice to republicans was don't be an expletive, don't

be a homophobe, things like that. >> absolutely. we need to make sure the reblican party is growing. look at my state. it's purple. just because we don't have a statewi statewide elected democrat doesn't mean we're not purple. the republican party in texas needs to start looking like texas. that goes for the rest of the country as well. bute have an opportunity because i know independents and center-left democrats are concerned with the direction of the democratic party. and we have an opportunity to intrigue those folks that have interested in solving problems in the future by empowering people and not governments. >> will hurd, republican from as i said, the only republican that represents a district on the border. thanks for coming on and sharing your views. >> of course, chuck. take care. when we come back, we're going to talk about the crisis at the be rder. as wgo to break, here's some pictures of captivity drawn by children who had been held in a

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that's verizon. welcome back. the panel is here. nbc news white house correspondent peter alexander, kimberly atkins, shawna thomas, bureau chie for vice news, and los angeles times columnist jon jonah goldberg. welcome, all. shawna, i feel like -- and i worried about this going into both of those interviews, that i uld comet of it with no answers. and we're in this cude-sac. it feels as if -- and i think it's because of the president but i don'ow how we get out of this cul-de-sac. >> i think secretary -- former secretary jeh johnson's op-ed in the post was interesting because he basically said comprehensive immigration reform is super hard. we triedt during the obama administration, didn't get it done even though there was some

bipartisan agreement. >> they tried it in the bush administration, and it didn't get done. >> even though there was bipartisan agreement on what to do. the thing i keep wondering is the same question you asked him, which is, okay, republicans and democrats, you both acknowledge that kids in cages and those photoseou showed bre we went to break is terrible. this is not how america treats people. we don't have enough space in hhs facilitiesto move people, which is why it's taking so long. ou going to do? and you are going to have to get together and maybe force the president into doing something. i think the other thing we know is he president thinks th a deterrent. and every time we put these pictures out there, it's a deterrent. and he is not -- >> is it? >> well -- >> what's the evince it's a deterrent? right? >> but he's hoping it's a deterrent. and if people come out and their stories are terrible, ma e he will end up getting what he wants out of that. >> jonah, i have a feeling if the president -- capitol hillul cosolve this if the president were involved. >> oh, that is a true statement

about ma things. but look, it's telling. that video you showed at the beginninof sarah fabian, the trump administration lawyer, defending those conditions, what's left out in a lot of media coverage is that was a case from the obama administration. the point being that this is actually a bigger problem than trump. the nature of the immigrants wh aretrying to cross the border is different than what our system was set up to deal with. it used to be able-bodied, single men, mostly from mexico, coming across the border. we have a legal system to de with that. now because of the flores decision and other aspects of our law, you have central americans bringing small bids. theyasically are using these kids, sometimes they're not their own kids, sometimes they are, obviously, using these kids as a pass to get across the border. and jeh johnson is absolutely right. will hurd is absolutely right. if we don't deal with the t problem as i actually exists rather than the one we imagine it to be, it creates -- as the obama administration discovered, it creates a perverse incentive

to send more people to the border. >> but the incentive is also ing exacerbated by the trump administration and by trump and his policies and rhetoric itself. talking about cutting aid to these countries. using kids, i don't know if they're so much usi kids. the vast majority of the time, children come with a family member. if it is not a parent, they're treated as if a they're unaccompanied minor. these are people coming as families, escaping atrocious conditions. if they pee what's hapng at the border, if they know, that just tells you how atrocious these conditions are. but the president sees this not as a deterrent, but he sees it as a political advantage. he sees he's being tough on immigration. that's what his people want. that's why he stood up in 2017 and 2018, he had an opportunity to do immigration reform. he could have said, i did what bush and obama couldn't do. and he walked away from it, both times, because he thoughtt was political. >> i'm struck by a couple things. first of all, the president had wha different reaction he saw those syrian children. obviously the circumstances were different. he saw the images of what was

taking place to these children overseas. he thought the solution was easy. i could bomb these runways. didn't hurt anybody and i got to be the hero. why hasn't he had the same impact -- why ha't he shown the same empathy to some of these children in the united states? i spoke to a trump ally who sais itecause the president thinks this is more complicated, some people say he's the bad guy. so clearly the bad guy has to be theth democrats. president is so focused on marketing and selling, right? so this is - all about that's why he put out the tweet saying we're going to deport millions and millions of these immigrants. chuck, they have 6,000 deportation officers in the country. you're not deporting millions of people. >> but he'll keep saying. >> of course, because the bottom line is the message. >> which brings me to the census. why does he continue to fight this? he needs to be seen by his bas asfighting, but if he was trying to make a legal argument to get it back, this comment here destroyed any chance of

that. take a listen. >> well, you need it for many reasons. number one, you need it for congress. you need it for congress, for districting. you need it forpr approtions. where are the funds going? how many people are are they citizens? are they not citizens? you need it for many reasons. >> shawna. >> yeah, i mean, number one in this country, when we redistrict based on the census, we do it based on persons, not citizens. what everyone is saying is when he says that, is heg tryino turn this into a ploy where we redistrict based on citizenship? if that's th case, what a lot of people have said is that means republicans are an advantage. white people have an advantage. but the federal government has specifically said in t that it had nothing to do with discrimination. the supreme court didn't even take that part up. they didn't let them take that part up. now the maryland judge is letting them take that part up. now the people on the other side, the plaintiffs, have this. >> but jonah, i don't mean to be ,this cynical here but the

president is going to continue to talk about it, and even though it won't be on the form, many hispanics may hear that it is on the form orea may fr that it's on the form. heas now said itenough, and maybe that's -- the damage is done. >> maybe. there's a whiff of four-dimensional chess that you're describing. >> well, and he's never a four-dimensional player. >> we should be clear. i actually think e executive branch has every constitutional right to actually ask about citizenship and tivity, which it did for about 190 years. this was a completely unforced error which justice roberts basically said if you hadn't screwed up the way you did this, you could ask it. the problem is trump is not getting that message, and they're not getting their ducks in a row if they just were less on the crazy train, they could get some of the things they want done. >> it's a differgrce between ing pains and the pains of not growing. i was so struck by what the

lawyers said when tey were discussing this. the lawyers said, as the tweet came out, this was the first time the lawyer heard about it. quote, i'm going to do my absolute best to figure out what's going on here. ake y the way, i want to that quote -- we should quickly put it up. it could apply to every tweet he has ever said to any administration official. here it is. the tweet this morning was the first i had heard of the en presids position on this issue, just like the plaintiffs and your honor. i do not have a deeper understanding of what that matns this juncture other than what the president has tweeted. but obviously as you can imagine, i'm doing my absolute best to figure out what's going on. >> it's also the conversation we all had with obosses. >> it is the -- that is, to me, the quote of the administration. >> the bottom line is he has the perception of fighting. that's why there's all this shifting going on behind the scenes to figure out what to do. >> joshua gartder idner, you ge mic drop moment here. he was the person who uttered that statement. when we come back sbr 25% your mouth.

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was that the party is moving sharply toft the le from health care to decriminalizing illegal immigration, most of the 20 candidates staked out positions well to the left of where the party had traditionally seled just in the last couple years. one candidate who bucked that trend is senator ary klobuch of minnesota. she's presenting herself as a bit more of aic pragmat democrat,ma or a pragc progressive, who can win back those midwesterners who supported both barack obama twice and donald trump once. setor klobuchar joins me this morning from the town of whitefield in northern new hampshire, where she's glad to be i comingn july. just wait until february, senator. >> i can handle it. y announcement in the snow. >> that's right. that's for sure. you'd be very comfortable up there. let me start with this debate about where ide the cratic party headed. during your debate night, i want to play for you what bill de blasio said about how he thought the democratic party should be defined. take a listen. >> this is supposed to be the party of working people. yes, we're supposed to be for 70% tax rate on the wealthy.

yes, we're supposed to be for freeol cge, free public college for our jung people. we're supposed to break up corporations when they're not serving our democracy. >> is hisen assessmt of the democratic party concur with yours? >> those are his views, and i would certainly agree with parts of what he said. he said we are the party of working people. that is true now, and y 's certainlue when you look at the republican tax bill. and when it comes to how we move our country forward on health care, you know i want a public option and i'm very concerned about some of these plans that would kick half of america off of their insurance, i don't agree with that. and i think that we should make college much morerd affole, but we want to make sure that that money is going to the people that need it and not to a bunch of ri. kids and i have made that very clear. but what i do know is that we are much more unified against

donald trump, and we have things that we redisagon, but in the end, we'll come together. the republican party, by the way, they basically are saying rightow todonald trump, how far can we jump? how high can we jump to be just like you? i'm glad we hav some differences. that's why we have the debates. but the most important thing is that we put a candidate on top of that ticket that's going to be able to unify us and win and beat donald trump. at's what my numbers have shown. i've won in all those red districts before. d i believe we can do it. >> let me ask you this. could you carry the state of minnesota if you were the party of giving -- having your health ca plan cover undocumented immigrants, for instance? if you're the nominee, i know you didn't necessarily propose that, but as you know, that's how they would try to run against any democratic nominee. are you concerned that it paints a t picture o democrats as too out of the center for, say, the state ofminnesota?

>> you know, in general, our ry is.is where the cou we're the party of opportunity, not chaos. when you look at the discussion you just had on immigration, all i can think abouts it was not this bad before. comprehensive immigration reform, which would bring the deficit down by $158 billion, you use a chunk of that money to help, as the republicann congressmas saying, with those countries in the northern triangle. asu let people seek um where they are in those countries. you make sure you're not separating parents from their kids, something i woulydo in first 100 days as president. and then you bring in comprehensive immigration reform. i am convinced, uck, that with my experience dealing with these immigration bills now twice, i can get this done in the first year. those were supported by the chamber, afo, cio. we canet this done with a president that wants to get it done. >> as you know, the argument against you in the primary is going to come from the left that

says, you know, you vote with president trump too much or you worked across the aisle too much. some of these compromises are being painted as capitulations. you hear too often that the democrats have gone too far for the republicans to cut a deal. look, i'm n saying those are fair criticisms. that's how you're going to be painted by some progressives. what do you tell them? >> i tell them that i look ey people in the and i tell them the truth. that i'm honest about how we think we can -- >> does that mean your primary opponents are not telling them the truth when they say free college, or free this? >> there's a lot of people making promises, and i'm not going to make j promisest to get elected. i am not running for chairmo of the deatic national committee. i am running for president of the united states. and that means you bring people together and you find that common ground in our own party, and there are bold plans here. i want to double the pe willl

grants. that'll help so many kids when you go up to 12,000 a year, double the eligibility up to $100,000 a family, where you can actually get those grants. i want to move forward with a public optioiand flly take on the pharmaceutical companies that are boosting up the cost of insulin so regularpeople can't even afford it. those are big, bold things that haven't been done. and somef mycolleagues, yes, they have -- i guess you can call them bigger and bigger promises. but i think what' most important to the people of america is we actually get those things done. >> let me ask you this about the back and forth between two ur opponents, senator kamala harris and former vice president joe biden. do you think senator harris' criticism of biden's record is fair? >> i think it is fair to talk about the fact that if you're dealing with a racist or a segregationist as he was that you have to call them out. he has w apologized for not doing that at the time and apologized for pist statements on bussing.

but you know what, i really want to move our country forward. what's happing right now with the african-american community when we still have public schools that are crumbling, heat not working in some of our schools in baltimore. that's why i came out with an infrastructure plan that includes our schools. that's why i think we need to support our public schools with highere teacher pay and that w need to put a bigger percentage of our federal budget into that and less giving away to the wealthy people. i thin our tax bill that was just passed that i opposedto ga wamuch help to the people at the top. i called it all foam and no beer for the middle class. i still stand by that. >> let me ask you this. at what point should a politician's past positions be held account? what is the statute of limitations politically? what's fair game and whatsn't? when is it okay to switch your position and when isn't it? i know that's in the eye of the beholder. in politics, all is fair,

period. >> i think people understand that over time you learn new things, you have different views on things, you take a vote and you realize, you know what, now i've learned new things and it's not the same. but in a psidential race like this, with so many candidates, yes, you have to plain your past votes. it doesn't mean that every single person did every singlei right. your other alternative is to have somebody who has no experience at all and has no votes andg. has done noth i don't think the american people want that. they put someone in the white house that didn't have a kind of experience in working with washington, and what do we have? chaos, gridlock, not moving on infrastructure, not working to bring the cost of prescription drugs down. so i think that experience, while it always calls you on it sometimes, i think that's importani' that's what d say about what i've done. >> senator amy klobuchar, thanks for coming onou and sharing y views. stay safe on the trail. >> thanks. great to be on, chuck. when we come back on this july 4th holiday weekend, where

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wn> welcome back. data doad time. summer travel season is in full swing, and like almost everything else in our lives nowadays, how you spend your vacation days ca say a lot about your political leanings. according to data from mri simmons, self-descr ed liberals are more likely to leave the united states or at least have the ability to. 57% of liberals have passportse comparo 48% of self-described conservatives. then there's the difference in how each group spends their down time. lils are more likely to go to the beach by eight percentagm points andore likely to indulge in fine dines. while conservatives are more likely to go fishi play golf. and when you travel within the united states, you might feel like you run into people with yourame political leanings. just look at the state people choose toisit. park county, wyoming, the so-called eastern gateway to yellowstone, sees visitors from mostly liberal strongholds and big cities. denver, new york, minneapolis,

salt lake city. compare that tbr anson, missouri, where visitors hail from springfield, missouri, kansas city, st. louis, little rock, and oklahoma city. that's all to say wh you take your vacations this summer, maybe it's time to mix things up. try to be a cultur tourist too. reach out to talk to someone across the political ideological spectrum. figure out why you disagree. maybe that can help bridge this bitterly divided country. when we come bk, "end game." sorry seems to be the hardest word. joe biden said it, sort of. now what? that's next. >> announcer: coming up, "end game," brought to you by boeing, proudly supporting our nation's veterans. going to the shawn mendes verizon up concert was like an out of body experice. we were right in front of him. dead center. front r. 'cause actually, zarmina, you touched shawn mendes. yeah, i touched him! she toucd shawn mendes! he like held my hand for a while. and thenr,e got to meet him afwhi. another surprise. yeah. we love verizon even more now. i'll never forget that day. ever.

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>> announcer: "end game," brought to you by boeing, proudly supporting our nation's veterans. now, was i wrong a few weeks ago ehow give the impression to people that i was praising those men who i successfully opposed time and again? well, yes, i was. i regret it. should that misstep define 50 years of my record, for fighting for civil rights, racial justice in this country

iope not. >> he did it in south carolina, not an accident. kimberly atkins, enough? >> well, we'll see. what exactly did he apologize for? he seemed to apologize for giving somehow the imession that he praised people who -- >> the old i apologize you were offended? >> exactly. so heal actu did give praise to segregationists. i think he needs to be forceful with it. i think it's about a week and a half too late. but it's something he does have to d, you're right he's in south carolina speaking in front of a largely african-american group of people. that's who he's concerned about, particularly after that last election. but i thinthat his biggest liability isn't just the fact that he has to explain his record. because this is coming again.oi he's to have to do this with the crime bill, with his work on senate judiciary wi anita hill. this is not the last time it will happen. he said he was unprepared for this and that he allowed his opponents to successfully make him look like this relic of the past when the demoats are

fighting over what the future looks like. >> so clearly he needed to neutralize this. obviously it took 2 1/2 weeks for him to be able to do that here. but the bottom line is that biden, the challenge for him is to show he can spaharply respon in moments like this. i thought what was most striking about what he did yesterday, the apo ology and also for the first time he invoked barack obama, having been the vice president to barack obama. this is what his own campaign aides, this is what other democratics strategistid he should have done from the very beginning. so where was that on the debate stage then? >> one of my favorite tweets was one point during one of biden's early speeches, remember biden was famous for saying about rudy giuliani, now and forever. >> it's not just his history. it's that we're in ament where we're talking about race right now. that is not going away from the democratic party, even if you just look at the makeu all the teem who are going to be on

stage again for the cnn debates. he needs to not only have an answer for all of his positions, all the things that you talked about, he needs to know and be able to tap into, if you will, feel people's pain about where are we going to go forward in this country when it comes to this issue. other than saying, hi, i was the vice president to barack obama, that means people are going to i be able to cone to attack him. >> and jonah, how much of this is a little bit of style as well? meaning, people are looking at joe biden, you're struggling to deal with your record among ventually going to support you. how are you going to handle donald trump? >> i think that's right, which is why i think in some ways he would be bettered advis to show some righteous indignation, maybe performative, but just to say, wait, are you telling me barack obama picked a racist as his vice president? how dare you. and just like drop it like that. >> interesting. >> at the same time, and i think you're absolutely right, there's literally no democrat who could -- who is biden's age who

was active in the '70s and '80s that would not he these problems. bill clinton would have these problems. he talked about william fulbright being his mentor. >> they kept nominating people fromu he south. yoow, it is interesting, this debate about -- and i got into it a lot with amy klobuchar. here's what was written. all these positions would likely be serious liabiliraes in a geneelection. what's more, none of them would appear to stand any plausible chance of enactment in the next administration.yi they're not la the groundwork for sweeping new progressive agenda they can pass in 2020. kimberly, i thought the most interesting line from amy klobuchar was when she said i'm not runng to be chairman of the democratic national committee. pushing back objen the left witt criticizing. >> that was very salvvy. i think we're seeing this debate playing out in the primary. this is happening really in the democratic party. it's real. you have a lot of candidates in a really important election

year. so it's playing out publicly. this idea thatat demo are somehow beating each other up or moving too far to the left to the way that's going to really hurt them in the general, i'm still skeptical of that. >> what if the republican party nominated donald trump in 2016? they'd never win the general election. >> right. and if you look at the differences between all 20 of these candidates, he difference between all of them compared to the difference between any one of them in donald trump is so much smaller. >> let me put up those polls from "the washington post" this morning. very quickly, matchups between democrats.he big lead, biden leads by ten. everybody else would be margin of error. sanders, harris, warren, buttigieg. shows you the strength of biden, or at least a brand of generic democrat. maybe that's what biden is right now. >> it also shows you the strength of name recognition and frankly being the vice prekdent to barac obama. it's really early. i have a team of people who's at essence fest right now. mayor pete is sg this

morning. they were talking about payor pete down in new orleans. my producer texted me.e shs like, mayor pete's black i oblem is no one knows who he is. t the polls are early. let's figure that out. >> he has a lot of money, by the way, to introduce himself now.ny more so thandy else. >> exactly. >> and introducing himself down there today. >> we shall see. thank you, guys. g what aat independence day weekend panel. i really appreciate it. and thank you, all, for watching. odthat's all we have for t. enjoy the rest of your july 4th holiday. remember, we'll be back next week because if it's sunday, it's "meet the press."

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