captioning funded by cbs and ford-- built for the road ahead. >> kroft: if it hadn't been for bernie madoff, the most famous white-collar criminal in america right now would probably be mark drier. he also ran a ponzi scheme and wound up in prison. but unlike madoff, he agreed to talk about it. >> i thought, if somebody would ever interview me in a program such as yours, it would be for something good i've done, not something humiliating i've done. >> kroft: this isn't the way you wanted to be on "60 minutes"? >> no.

>> stahl: america gets half its electricity from coal. the problem is that process creates tens of millions of tons of waste loaded with toxic metal. this muck is called coal ash. never heard of it? neither had most of the people in kingston, tennessee, until a retention pool buckled, shooting a billion gallons of coal ash into the river and engulfing area homes. >> you had never heard of coal ash before kingston. >> stahl: never. >> it wasn't a problem. >> stahl: well, it was a problem. we just didn't know. now, we know. and there are no federal regulations for coal ash disposal, which is dumped in hundreds of sites all over the country. >> pelley: if you could go just one place anywhere on the planet, to see the most spectacular wildlife, this is it. it's called the great migration. millions of animals on an endless march of life...

and death. it's one of the greatest shows on earth, and we thought you should see it now because there's no guarantee it'll be around forever. >> i'm steve kroft. >> i'm lesley stahl. >> i'm bob simon. >> i'm morley safer. >> i'm lara logan. >> i'm scott pelley. those stories and andy rooney tonight on "60 minutes." you've worked all your life. as the decades have past, the promise of medicare has always been there. and aarp has fought to guarantee none of the benefits you earned were ever taken away. today we're continuing that fight by protecting your freedom to choose the doctors and treatments you need. and to have your tax dollars go towards your care-- not insurance company subsidies. you've done your work. and we'll keep doing ours. learn more at aarp.org.

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i can smile, i can carry on our conversation i do most of the talking yes i wear dentures and they fit wonderful super poligrip acts as a seal between my dentures and my gums super poligrip makes eating more comfortable even well fitting dentures can feel more comfortable with super poligrip just a few dabs of super poligrip create a seal between your dentures and gums to make them more comfortable while you eat. i can eat my steak, i just love it. (charlie dullea) try super poligrip. >> kroft: if it hadn't been for bernie madoff, the most famous white collar criminal in america

right now would probably be marc dreier. if that name's not ringing a bell, it's because dreier's $400 million ponzi scheme was blown off the front pages by madoff's arrest just a few days later. but the case is no less fascinating. the highly respected attorney, who ran a big park avenue law firm, was initially arrested in toronto for impersonating an officer in a pension fund in what has been described as perhaps the most bizarre arrest in the history of white collar crime. but unlike bernie madoff, marc dreier agreed to talk to "vanity fair" magazine, and to "60 minutes" in his only television interview. >> marc dreier: i thought, if somebody would ever interview me on a program such as yours, it would be for something good i've done, not something humiliating i've done. >> kroft: this isn't the way you wanted to be on "60 minutes" ? >> dreier: no. >> kroft: nor was this the way that marc dreier wanted to make his final appearance in federal court-- as a defendant in his own fraud case. when we first interviewed him last spring, he was a prisoner

in his own penthouse, with a g.p.s. monitoring device on his ankle, detained by private jailers whose $70,000 a month fee was being paid for by dreier's 88-year-old mother. with his assets frozen or confiscated by the court, all that remained of dreier's $40 million art collection were the hooks on the wall. how did you end up becoming a crook? >> dreier: i can't remember the moment in which i decided to do something that i knew was wrong. i had an ambition that i needed to feed. i think i fell into the trap of wanting to be more successful than i was. >> kroft: but you were successful? >> dreier: i was, but i really wanted to distinguish myself. i wanted to... i wanted to be as important as i thought i was... deserved to be. >> kroft: with degrees from yale and harvard law, and the ego of a successful trial lawyer, dreier told friends he was going to become a billionaire. he started his own law firm that he said would revolutionize the

business of law. he was going to hire the best attorneys, pay them top dollar, and keep all the profits for himself as the firm's only partner. >> dreier: the idea for the law firm was very viable. but it needed much more money to get off the ground than i anticipated, much more. so that wasn't very well thought out. i had a good idea, but a very bad business plan. >> kroft: and the plan was about to get much worse. with his law firm a money pit and dreier tapped out, he began approaching hedge funds with a cockamamie scheme he thought might save his dream. dreier told the hedge funds that he was representing a billionaire real estate developer who was looking to borrow hundreds of millions of dollars to embark on some new projects. the developer, dreier said, would issue short-term promissory notes, guaranteeing interest rates of between 7% and 12%, well above market rates. and it seemed like a very good deal. the only problem was, that real estate mogul who was supposed to be borrowing all this money,

sheldon solow, didn't know anything about it. nor did he know that dreier, his former lawyer, was fabricating financial information about his company and keeping the loan proceeds for himself. so you convinced hedge funds to lend money, ostensibly to mr. solow, your former client, and in fact the money was going to you? >> dreier: yes. >> kroft: so you came up with phony financial statements, phony audits, forged documents for mr. solow's company? >> dreier: yes. >> kroft: how did you do all that? how did you get that stuff? >> dreier: well, i invented it. >> kroft: you invented it? i mean, stationery... >> dreier: yes. >> kroft: ...from the audit firms? how did you get that? >> dreier: i was able to obtain their... their letterhead from either direct... either from correspondence that i'd received from them or perhaps from the internet. i don't recall. >> kroft: what was your biggest deal? >> dreier: $100 million. >> kroft: and somebody just gave you $100 million and never bothered to check with your supposed, alleged client to make sure that this was on the up- and-up?

>> dreier: right. but i don't know. i guess i heard a long time ago, too, that the more money you look for, the fewer questions people ask, sometimes. >> kroft: the obvious flaw in dreier's scheme was that he would eventually have to pay off all the promissory notes, plus interest, if he wanted to stay out of jail. and in the end, the only way he could do it was by selling more notes to new investors. so you were digging yourself into a hole? >> dreier: yeah, very much so. you start with something that you think is manageable and small. you know it's wrong, but you think you can fix it, and you... and you can't get out of it. it became quicksand. i had to keep meeting obligations that grew bigger and bigger. clearly, all along the way, if there was a way for me to have gotten out of it, i... i would've done it. >> kroft: dreier says he used most of the $400 million he stole to expand his law firm, and to finance a lifestyle designed to create the illusion that he already was a billionaire.

there was the $11 million ocean- front compound in the hamptons, an art collection that included a picasso, three matisses, and 12 warhols. and then there was the 120-foot yacht "seascape," with a full- time crew of ten, all mortgaged to the hilt. how much did you pay for the yacht? >> dreier: $18 million. >> kroft: and for this apartment? >> dreier: $10.5 million. >> kroft: you enjoyed the good life. >> dreier: i did. it was clear to me that the more you showed people that you didn't need money, the easier it was to attract money. so having the trappings of success was a very important part of the plan. >> kroft: to raise his profile, dreier co-hosted annual charity events with former new york giants star michael strahan that attracted top name performers like diana ross, jon bon jovi and alicia keys. and then there were the extravagant office parties where dreier himself sometimes performed. >> dreier: in this town, you have to really be something. you know, you don't succeed quietly in this town, perhaps. and i... i think i succumbed to that. >> kroft: by 2007, dreier l.l.p.

occupied ten floors of a park avenue building, employed more than 250 lawyers around the country, with high-profile clients like bill cosby, andy pettitte, maria sharapova, and justin timberlake. what no one but marc dreier knew was that the rents, the salaries and the expenses were all being subsidized by fraud. >> dreier: i recognized in the last couple of years that what i saw as a $20 million mistake had grown into a mistake of a few hundred million dollars. and then i did some increasingly irrational things, because i wasn't thinking clearly. >> kroft: crazy things. >> dreier: yeah. >> kroft: desperate. >> dreier: yeah. >> kroft: last fall, as the financial crisis set in, dreier was holding hundreds of millions of dollars in loans that were about to come due, and everyone wanted their money back. when dreier was a month late on a $100 million loan payment, the hedge fund that was owed the money demanded a face-to-face meeting with the executives at

sheldon solow's real estate operations, here at his office building in new york. with reality closing in, dreier enlisted the services of a former client, kosta kovachev, to impersonate the president of solow's operation, and then he commandeered a conference room in solow's office for a meeting with the hedge fund, in hopes of getting a loan extension. and you conduct this whole charade right there in the middle of... of solow's business. >> dreier: yeah. >> kroft: did you think you were going to get away with that? >> dreier: yeah. >> kroft: you did, actually, didn't you? >> dreier: yeah. >> kroft: were you nervous? >> dreier: i should've been nervous, but i don't know, i... i wasn't very nervous.& >> kroft: i don't get the sense that you're a very emotional person. >> dreier: i think i am. i didn't plan anything i was going to say in this interview, other than not to lose my emotions. but it is not going to do me any

good to literally cry over it. >> kroft: when i ask you about the... the emotion, i mean, here you are, walking into a former client's office, perpetuating this scheme right in his office... >> dreier: that's called chutzpa, that's not emotion. you know, i mean, do i have chutzpa? yes. can i... am... can i be very tough under pressure? yes. so, was i able to go into mr. solow's office and pull off that charade without falling apart? yes. did i think i could do that? yes. because i had done things that required nerves of steel before. but it doesn't mean that i'm not emotional about what i did. i clearly remember when i left that office thinking i had done something really crazy and foolish. >> gerald shargel: it was bizarre. i mean, he was impervious to the idea of being caught. attorney gerald shargel, who would represent dreier during his legal proceedings and plea negotiations with the u.s. government, said the facts of the case were beyond the reach of a sound bite. >> shargel: he was a solid lawyer, and there are a number of judges told me that marc dreier was probably the best lawyer that has ever appeared in front of them.

and all of a sudden, out of the blue, it's like something went off the tracks. >> kroft: do you have any idea what it was? >> shargel: you know, he was fighting his own demons. in his own mind, he hadn't achieved what he was expected to achieve, and he wanted to just grab for it. but he grabbed for it in... in a profoundly sick way. >> kroft: by december of last year, both investors and investigators had grown suspicious of dreier, and his luck would eventually run out in toronto, where he pretended to be a lawyer for a teacher's pension fund in order to swindle a hedge fund out of $33 million. >> dreier: that was the first act i'd done where i knew i was going to get caught and just couldn't help myself. i just wasn't thinking clearly. >> kroft: dreier had collected a business card from the lawyer he was claiming to be, but the man he was supposed to meet with sensed that there was something wrong. what made him suspicious, do you think? >> dreier: you know, he had acted diligently, and he made some phone calls, which i think led him to be suspicious. i knew as soon as he walked in that he was suspicious, but i

still did it. >> kroft: the police in toronto were called, and dreier was arrested for impersonation. when he returned to new york five days later, he was apprehended by the f.b.i. on charges of fraud and money laundering, to the complete and utter astonishment of the new york legal community and to the employees of his own law firm. >> joanne rapuano: when we heard the news, we thought it was a joke, at first. >> tori lalonde: there were ten floors of attorneys and boxes. but a lot of people started to resign immediately. they just walked out the door. >> okay, next up, these are the black poltrona frau leather bucket-style chairs... >> kroft: ten days after dreier's arrest, the law firm bearing his name had declared bankruptcy and 600 people were looking for work. the day we met attorney joanne rapuano and long-time office manager tori lalonde, the firm's furniture and office equipment were being sold off by the court to pay off the creditors, mostly hedge funds and their investors,

who are not likely to see much of the missing $400 million. >> okay, now, we have the paper shredder. if this paper shredder could talk! how much for the paper shredder? $25 bid. open it up now... >> kroft: what's it like being here? >> rapuano: truly tragic. you know, you watch something get built, you think you're part of something on its way up. and all of the sudden, you see it being carted out the front door. >> $1,000 opens it up. $1,000 bid to open it up... >> lalonde: it's just disgraceful. we are victims. i have no job, i have no medical after today. i'm done. so, now, what do i do, start my career all over? >> kroft: i don't want to compare you with madoff, but one of the questions that people ask about madoff, constantly, is: how could he do this? how could he walk around living this life, spending all this money, never showing a crack in the facade? and there are some similarities. how did you deal with that? >> dreier: i was doing a lot of things at the same time. i was engaged in a fraud, which took a lot of energy to sustain. but i was also running a law firm-- a legitimate law firm-- other than, obviously, the obvious fact that it was funded illegitimately.

i was a practicing lawyer; i was handling my own cases in court, which took a lot of energy. i almost didn't have enough time to dwell on the elephant in the room, which was the very... you know, the... the crime i was engaging with to keep... keep all this up. >> kroft: he has plenty of time to dwell on it now. after entering his guilty plea, marc dreier has begun serving his 20-year prison sentence in illinois. he wanted everyone he hurt to know that he was profoundly sorry. and for someone so obsessed with his own image and what people thought about him, his punishment is just beginning. >> dreier: i've lost everything i own. i've lost my business, i've obviously lost my reputation. i've caused my family, obviously, enormous unhappiness, and i have nothing. >> kroft: do you have any friends? >> dreier: now? >> kroft: uh-huh. >> dreier: doesn't seem so.

>> cbs money watch update. >> good evening. finance ministers at the g-7 meeting warned the world economic recovery remains fragile. some good news now, gas is averaging $2.46 a gallon, that's down 13 cents from a month ago. the first doses of h1n1 vaccine arrive this week. and it is zombie land won the weekend box office. i'm rough mitchell, cbs news. the iphone has all kinds of apps.

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>> stahl: we burn so much coal in this country for electricity that, every year, that process generates-- listen to this number-- 130 million tons of waste. most of it is coal ash, and it contains some nasty stuff. environmental scientists tell us that concentrations of mercury, arsenic, lead and other toxic metals are considerably higher in coal ash than in ordinary soil.

when coal ash is disposed of in dry, lined impoundments, it's said to be safe. but it's often dumped into wet ponds-- there are nearly 500 of them across the country-- and in those cases, the ash can pose health risks to nearby communities. >> jim roewer: we get about 48%... nearly half of the electricity in this country from coal. >> stahl: jim roewer is one of the top lobbyists for the power industry. >> roewer: coal's going to be around for a long time. >> stahl: we really can't get rid of coal. >> roewer: we shouldn't get rid of coal; we've got... >> stahl: well, should or shouldn't, we can't. and coal makes waste. would you say that the industry has done a good job of disposing of the coal ash waste? >> roewer: we can do better. >> stahl: does that mean no? >> roewer: well, we had a kingston spill. that's kingston, tennessee, where, last december, a giant retention pool of coal ash buckled under the weight of five decades of waste. >> 9-1-1 operator: now, all the power lines and everything have

been knocked out. >> stahl: a billion gallons of muck shot into the emory river like a black tsunami... >> 9-1-1 operator: one person in the house, he's alive. >> stahl: ...engulfing homes, uprooting trees... >> 9-1-1 operator: everything's gone. >> stahl: ... and throwing fish out of the water. >> no, don't eat the fish, please. >> stahl: residents woke up to an apocalyptic moonscape of ash- bergs everywhere. >> this stuff is just sitting there, steaming. >> stahl: the spill was 100 times larger than the "exxon valdez," and it was all coal ash. >> roewer: you'd never heard of coal ash before kingston. >> stahl: never. >> roewer: never >> stahl: never. >> roewer: wasn't a problem. >> stahl: well, it was a problem, we just didn't know. the problem is, where do you put all that stuff? here, the tennessee valley authority, t.v.a., dumped up to 1,000 tons of coal ash every day into a wet pond near the plant, slowly amassing a waste-cake 60 feet high. some of the ingredients,

according to the e.p.a.: arsenic, lead, mercury, selenium, cadmium, and other toxic metals. you know, some people say that this is a poisoned meadow. >> leo francendese: i guess that's one way to describe it. it just doesn't belong here. it needs to come out. >> stahl: leo francendese is an environmental "mr. fix-it." he was sent by the e.p.a. to clean up this mess. >> francendese: in the wrong circumstances, coal ash is dangerous. breathing it, that's dangerous. >> stahl: the summer heat can bake the ash into a fine talc- like powder that can wreak havoc on your lungs. and this all coal ash right along here. so, while the government has never formally labeled coal ash a hazardous waste, it's being treated as such here. is that all coal ash? >> francendese: yeah. >> stahl: as we left the site, we were scrubbed clean, as was our car. oh, my goodness. look at this. is this every car that goes through the site, goes through... >> francendese: every car that come... that goes through the site comes through this.

>> stahl: gary topmiller lives right on the river. he had a front row seat when the spill covered his dock. >> gary topmiller: now, what the doctors did tell me was, "get out of there." and i said, "i don't have anyplace to go." >> stahl: so, how do you live? you don't go out on the water? >> topmiller: no, we don't go out of the house.& >> stahl: from the house, he sees scientists collecting samples to analyze just how bad the water is. the river looks clear but, topmiller says, that's deceptive. this came... comes out of right here? >> topmiller: right. it come right off the dock... >> stahl: and i should shake it? >> topmiller: turn it upside down and start shaking it. and this is what the river looks like once it... once that stuff gets suspended in it. >> stahl: oh, my goodness. >> topmiller: and how they're going to get that all out of the river, i don't have an idea. >> stahl: most of his neighbors have packed up and left. go down the river, and you pass home after home that are deserted, the hubbub of children replaced by the hum of heavy machinery. those left behind say the noise is one thing; what really infuriates them is executives from the power plant telling them that coal ash is as safe as

dirt. >> anda ray: we have broken the trust... >> stahl: anda ray oversees environmental policy at the tennessee valley authority, which is responsible for the spill. i asked her how toxic she thinks coal ash is. >> ray: i'd say that the constituents, the things that are in the coal ash, are the same things that are naturally occurring in soil and rock. >> stahl: so, is it like dirt? would you say that? would you say that sentence? "that stuff is like dirt." >> ray: that's... that ash material is higher than dirt in two areas, and that is arsenic and thallium. and we are monitoring those and the effect on the water... >> stahl: so, would you swim in this river today? >> ray: yes, i would. she later retracted, remembering the advisory... >> ray: we've advised people not to swim in the river where there's ash. >> stahl: i then asked about company reports that repeatedly questioned the stability of the ash ponds. should the t.v.a. have seen this coming? >> ray: you know... >> stahl: you were warned repeatedly. >> ray: lesley, there were red

flags that have been noticed all through the years. and we recognize that those red flags should've been addressed. but yes, we missed them, and we don't ever want to miss them again. >> stahl: the spilled ash is now being loaded onto trains and sent off to a dry landfill in alabama. right now, coal ash disposal is regulated by the states, some of which have strict rules, some hardly any at all. >> lisa jackson: e.p.a. can be a force for good. >> stahl: the new head of the e.p.a., lisa jackson, is reviewing whether the federal government should get involved by labeling coal ash a hazardous waste, which would mean much tighter regulations and oversight. why wouldn't you, right now, this minute, on "60 minutes" declare that coal ash is a hazardous waste? >> jackson: e.p.a., in making a regulatory determination, has to look at a number of factors, including the toxicity of the material and how it's currently managed, but that's done according to law.

and i have committed that, no later than december, we will make a regulatory proposal with respect to this material. >> stahl: the industry opposes calling coal ash hazardous waste. they're pushing for another solution-- recycling. >> ted yoakam: that hill over there might be 40 feet of coal ash. >> stahl: ted yoakam, a lawyer in virginia, says recycling can breed its own disaster. he says that in 2002, the state's power company, dominion, got rid of some of its excess coal ash by giving it to this golf course in chesapeake. >> stahl: wow. how many tons of coal ash, do you know, did they use to build this golf course? >> yoakam: we know that they put at least 1.5 million tons. >> stahl: million tons? >> yoakam: yes. >> ... for conditional use permit to construct and operate a golf course... >> stahl: in this city council meeting, a consultant hired by the company that built the golf course assured the mayor that coal ash was safe for reuse. >> it's, in every aspect, is... it's the same as dirt, as it's

been explained to me. i'm not aware of any negative aspects of it at all. >> stahl: the mayor then turned to a dominion executive... >> is there any environmental concerns we should be aware of? >> no, sir. we at dominion power are fully in compliance with all the federal and state regulations. >> stahl: two years later, this internal company study about handling the ash for the golf course recommended that workers use "impervious gloves" and "particulate-filtering respirators" due to "potential health risks." robyn pierce and her neighbor, stacy moorman, live across the street from the golf course. >> robyn pierce: it was said that they were told they should wear respirators and body suits. nobody came up and down either one of these two streets and handed out wardrobe for us. >> stacy moorman: but our kids were out there. >> pierce: our children were out there playing in the yard, breathing this stuff. how does this happen? >> stahl: also, dominion's internal risk assessment warned of the dangers of coal ash leaching into the water supply.

to prevent that, the contractor who built the golf course was supposed to build a two-foot barrier under the coal ash, and one 18 inches on top. the contractor's engineer certified this was done. but attorney yoakam, who represents townspeople who are suing dominion, suspects it wasn't. >> yoakam: as you can see right here, it's right at the surface. >> stahl: oh, my god, that... >> yoakam: insects... >> stahl: ... that's coal ash? of course it is, yeah. >> yoakam: insects have pulled it up. you can see how it flies away. >> stahl: last year, the city dug into the golf course, did a test, and found elevated levels of toxic metals in the water. >> yoakam: with all the knowledge that dominion had about the coal ash and the lead and the arsenic and beryllium and all the poison, to put it in this environment, it's just an outrage. >> stahl: that water test was just for the golf course; dominion told us e.p.a. testing

"shows no harm to residential wells" around the golf course. >> moorman: i invite anybody from the companies who have put it over there to come to my house and have dinner. and i will use that tap water. >> stahl: stacy and her neighbors think it's too risky to drink the water. so, after dominion refused to provide them with bottled water, they began trudging to a local church, where the city pipes in guaranteed clean water. is that how you get your drinking water? >> yeah. we use it to brush our teeth and to take baths. >> stahl: dominion declined to give us an interview, but most power companies rely on recycling because it cuts the 130 million tons of coal waste every year in half. the industry calls recycling "beneficial use." >> pierce: don't even... beneficial for who? the only people it was beneficial for were for those utility companies that had to

get that stuff off their hands because they were already in violation with stockpiling too much. that is what "beneficial use" meant. >> stahl: but the e.p.a. in the bush administration endorsed beneficial use, and now coal ash is recycled in dozens of ways: as cement substitute, for instance. it's also placed under roads and in deserted mines, and it's added to products from carpets to bowling balls to bathroom sinks. while the industry says the uses have been studied, i asked lisa jackson whether the e.p.a. knows if some of the recycled products are safe. schoolroom carpeting. >> jackson: i don't know. i have no data that says that's safe at this point. >> stahl: kitchen counters. >> jackson: the same. >> stahl: 50,000 tons of coal ash by-products have been used in agriculture. now, what's being done through e.p.a. to look at the use of coal ash in agricultural products? anything?

are you... is there a study? >> jackson: i'm not sure that there's any study out there right now. >> stahl: how did we get to a place where coal ash is in products without anybody knowing? >> jackson: we're here now because coal ash, at this time, isn't a regulated material by the federal government. >> stahl: if the e.p.a. declares coal ash a hazardous waste, lobbyist jim roewer says beneficial use would die and the cost of disposal would skyrocket. >> roewer: we look at that and we're looking at something on the order of $12 billion to $13 billion. >> stahl: billion? >> roewer: billion. >> stahl: and who'd pay for that? we know-- the customers. >> roewer: environmental protection doesn't come cheap. >> stahl: he says the current state-by-state regulatory system may not be perfect, but it works. could you say right now that the disposal in all the coal ash plants today are safe, and that they're all doing a proper job?

>> roewer: all i can guarantee is that they're going to do their best to manage coal ash safely so that you don't have a release like kingston. >> stahl: are all these plants safe? >> roewer: that's what the state regulations are all about-- to insure the safe management of coal ash. >> stahl: but... but you're not saying they are safe. you're playing word games with me. you're not saying, "they are safe." >> roewer: you want me to guarantee that... >> stahl: yeah, i do. >> roewer: ...they're absolutely safe. >> stahl: i think everybody... i want... yes, i do. >> roewer: well, i... what i can say is the state regulations and the utility management practices are put in place to ensure... with a goal of safe management of coal ash. >> stahl: i don't think many people really trust the utility industry, i'm sorry to tell you. >> roewer: you're not the first one to tell me that. for your retirement makes sense, just stay on track. what is...? that's the guidance you get from fidelity.

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>> pelley: if you could go just one place, anywhere on the planet, to see the most spectacular wildlife, you'd want to head east to catch a sight that comes round every year, but only for a short time. it's called the great migration, millions of animals on an endless march of life and death and rebirth. we'll save most of the superlatives for the pictures, because you might agree this is one of the greatest shows on earth. we thought you should see it now because there's no guarantee it'll be around forever.

there was a time when epic migrations were common-- millions of buffalo in north america, for example. but today, to see what that must have been like, you have to travel to east africa. here, in late summer, more than a million wildebeest cross the volcanic plain of the maasai mara in kenya, pushing through one of the most awe-inspiring wildlife habitats on earth-- nearly everything africa has to offer, all in one place. the dry season is moving the herds, concentrating them where there is still grass and water. it's a march of 350 miles up from the serengeti national park in tanzania to the maasai mara national reserve in kenya and back again.

american scientist robin reid was hooked the very first time she saw it as a student. she's on the faculty at colorado state university, and has spent decades studying the animals and the maasai people who share the land with the mara migration. >> robin reid: we don't have migrations anymore this large. so this is the only one that stands by itself that is this large. now, if you're talking about butterflies or you're talking about birds, you're talking about, you know, smaller animals, absolutely. you easily get up into these kinds of numbers. but as far as big animals, you know, that are walking long distance, you know, this is the one. >> pelley: this is the last one on earth. >> reid: yep, the last one on earth that is this large. >> pelley: "wildebeest" is dutch for "wild beast," which may refer more to its appearance than any ferocity. it's a relative of the antelope, but it's unlike anything you've ever seen. >> pelley: they call lions regal and elephants majestic. i wonder what you'd call a

wildebeest? >> reid: i think they look insane. their horns are kind of, you know, this way and that. and then they have these big shoulders, and why in the heck is that? and they're a funny color. you know, they're not pretty. and they've got a long tail. you know, they're... they're put together in pieces. >> pelley: well, somebody once said it looks like an animal that's made out of spare parts. >> reid: and that's very apt. >> pelley: along with the wildebeest, there are hundreds of thousands of zebra, nearly half a million gazelles, and all of them crossing the territory of predators including lion... hyena... this cheetah that we found with her three newborn cubs... and the biggest predator of them all-- crocodiles that patrol the mara river, which cuts right through the migration route. this is easily the most dramatic point in the entire year-long

migration. there comes a time that the wildebeest and their calves have to cross the mara river. you can't believe how big these crocodiles are. one of them is at least 15 feet long. but the wildebeest have to cross in order to feed, and the crocodiles know that. a wildebeest may go through ten migrations in its lifetime. and to see them hesitate at the bank, it's as though many of them knew what was coming. first, two wildebeest scramble across. the next group takes the plunge right into the waiting crocs. the big croc strikes and has the wildebeest's horns between its jaws. a second crocodile attacks... then a third... a fourth... and a fifth.

now, it's a struggle to find enough water to pull the wildebeest down to drown. in the few days that it takes the herds to cross the river, the crocs will bring down enough food to last for months. once the wildebeest see where the crocs are, the herd runs upstream and surges across by the hundreds. no one can say how long this migration has thrived, but on the mara river, we began to see

evidence that its future is not a sure thing. usually, the wildebeest swim across, but now the river is very low. could what has happened to other migrations in the world happen here? >> reid: of course. of course, absolutely. the thing i'm most worried about for the future is the... the mara river and the amount of water in it. it's just the... you know, kind of the main artery of the... of the ecosystem, and it's very important. >> pelley: this is that artery that robin reid is talking about, and the best way to see it is from the air. the mara river rises in a place called the mau forest, and it meanders about 250 miles or so down to lake victoria. the maasai tell us that there is less water in the river now than at any time they can remember. and if the mara river went away, what impact would it have on all

this? >> reid: we're not absolutely sure. but in the dry season, it's the only thing that flows. and so if that water went away, then the wildebeest population would collapse. >> pelley: collapse? >> reid: yes. >> pelley: what do you mean by collapse? >> reid: you know, i don't actually know if there would be very many left, actually. not just the wildebeest-- it would be many of the other species that require water. >> pelley: you would lose hundreds of thousands of these animals? >> reid: oh, yes, absolutely, absolutely. in fact, the estimates are-- and you know, this is a guess-- is that if the river were to dry up completely, okay, in the very first week after it dried up, we'd lose about 400,000 animals that would die. >> pelley: in a week? >> reid: in a week, yes. and, you know, maybe that's an overestimate, but even if it's in a month, that's a lot. >> pelley: we wanted to find out why the mara river seems to be drying up, so we headed north to its source, the mau forest. the first thing you notice are wheat fields where the trees used to be.

and beyond the expanding farms, we headed toward smoke on the horizon. the trip brought us here. we're about five miles from the mara river. this isn't a wheat field yet, but it soon will be. what happens before the forest becomes a wheat field is that charcoalers move to the area and cut down the trees to make one of the principal fuels for cooking. the mau forest is falling to a growing population that's trying to make a living off the land. for centuries, the mau has been a sponge, holding and releasing waters into the river. to scientists, the equation is simple-- if there's no mau forest, there's no mara river, and that means no migration. now, saving the mau forest has become a crisis in kenya, pitting the government against its own people. the government has forcibly evicted as many as 50,000 settlers from the mau.

we saw it in the village of nkaroni, which was settled in the forest more than 30 years ago. the kenyan government, back in the 1990s, even gave some of the villagers title to the land. it says "nature of title: absolute." ( applause ) you take it to mean absolute. well, not exactly. a new government has turned on them. now, it says, to save the forest, villages like this have to go. in 2005, the government sent security forces to burn homes, schools and churches. but still, the people refuse to leave. >> we will stay. we will not go anywhere. if they want to kill us, they kill us. >> pelley: you would die right here? >> yes. >> pelley: the villagers in the forest don't see why their

families should be uprooted for a wildlife refuge they've never seen. but we found a different story down river in the mara itself, where the growing population of maasai has been willing to compromise. >> dickson kaelo: the population is a wild problem. it's growing, and its growing everywhere. >> pelley: dickson kaelo works for a non-profit foundation that's paying the maasai to turn over management of their land to a wildlife conservancy. >> kaelo: many of the families, before the conservancy started, were very poor, and quite a number of them now are able to survive and diversify away from just keeping cattle. the maasai had been expanding their farms and grazing cattle near the migration routes. now, the conservancy manages their land for wildlife, tourists pay to see the wildlife, and the maasai get a cut of the profits. families we talked to say they bring in an extra $200 a month, enough to send the kids to school.

so this is all part of the conservancy? kaelo has brought nearly 300 square miles under management, and that's growing. >> kaelo: i think the children of our children of our children would like to experience the migration. it doesn't matter whether they are living in china or in the far east or in america, they would like to know that the migration is still continuing. >> pelley: as the wildebeest moved out of the maasai mara, we could see the beginnings of next year's spectacle. the elephants were raising their calves, and that cheetah was feeding her cubs on a waterbuck she'd killed. cheetah cubs chirp like birds. and if they survive, they will still be with their mother when the wildebeest come round again. this perpetual cycle is still a robust force of nature. but with the mara river running

low and man crowding the route, no one can be certain how many turns are left for this, the last spectacle of its kind. >> hello, everyone, welcome to the cbs sports update. i'm james brown. in new york with the scores around the nfl today. the giants broke the 4-and-0 as manning throws three touchdown passes. surprising broncos are unbeaten thanks to a 51 yard touchdown by marshall. the saints are 4-and-0. the patriots move into a first place tie with the jets. indian -- cinci wins in the closing seconds of overtime. for more news and scores log on to cbs sports.com. having a heart attack. i remember being at the hospital,

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>> pelley: and now, a few minutes with andy rooney. >> rooney: i got an email from a friend i never heard of the other day, suggesting i do a story about the trouble that our u.s. postal service is in. that's what the post office calls itself, the u.s. postal service. i don't take suggestions gracefully, but they're thinking about closing post offices to save money and i think it's crazy. according to them, there are 37,000 post offices in the united states, and if they closed 10% of them, they could save $3 billion a year. they're also talking about reducing mail delivery from six to five days a week, and naturally, they thought about raising the price of stamps

again, too. most of us don't like any of these solutions to the post offices' problem. the best mail is the letter from a friend or a relative. it's sad to say that very little of what most of us get these days is that kind of mail. the postal service is a government agency, but it's supposed to operate like a business. most people don't realize that-- i know i didn't realize it-- but the post office doesn't get tax money. it has to pay for itself. in 1900, there were 77,000 post offices around the country. today, with four times as many people, there are only 37,000 post offices. 40,000 fewer post offices for 230 million more americans. no wonder it wasn't in the mail. we have a lot of things that need cutting, but post offices are not among them. there's something special about a letter-- we all like to get one. an email, on the other hand, has

all the charm of a freight train. when i was growing up, we all knew when the mailman was coming, and we waited for him, even though we hardly ever got a letter. people actually wrote letters to each other, though, which they don't do as much anymore; they email each other. i would rather have a mailman or woman deliver junk mail to me than to get an email. >> pelley: i'm scott pelley. we'll be back next week with another edition of "60 minutes." my new vibrating maybelline mascara makes my lashes look amazing! i'll have to use my powers wisely. with unbeatable prices on maybelline pulse perfection mascara, beauty costs less at walmart. save money. live better.

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