from washington, "the mclaughlin group," the american original, for over three decades the sources, hardest ta the second debate between president obama and governor mitt romney this past tuesday drew a tv audience of 65.6 million viewers. the debate was at hofstra university on long island in new york, town hall style. testy, tense and quite rivetting throughout. here's the president, pressing governor romney on romney's tax plan and how he'll do what he claims he will do. >> if somebody came to you, governor, with a plan that said, here, i want to spend $7 or $8 trillion and we're going to pay for it, but we can't tell you until maybe after the

election how we're going to do it, you wouldn't have taken such a sketchy deal. and neither should you, the american people, because the math doesn't add up. >> we're talking about math -- when we're talking about math that doesn't add up, how about $4 trillion of deficits over the last five years, or $5 trillion, that's math that doesn't add up. we have a president talking about someone's plan in a way that's completely foreign to what my real plan is. and then we have his own record which is we have four consecutive years where he said when he was running for office he would cut the deficit in half. instead he's doubled it. >>reporter: mr. romney also noted that under president obama the national debt has gone from $10 trillion to $16 trillion, as shown here by continuously accruing national debt clock. >> question, are president obama's debate performances

damaging his brand. pat buchanan? >> john, if mitt romney wins this election, the debate performances of barack obama will be responsible for his victory. in the first debate barack obama was listless, he looked like he didn't even want to be president again. in the second debate, he deappreciatated his two most priceless assets, one is the dignity of the oval office, and the second is his likability. he came down out of that pulpit, that bully pulpit t.r. called it, and got into a big brawl with mitt romney. and i think he deappreciatated those assets. on romney's part, john, the debates have served one critical function. the country has seen him, and it has come to believe that the caricture of him created by the effective ads by the obama campaign all during the summer that he was a super rich guy, uncaring, you know, cheating on his taxes is false. and so i'll tell ya, history will say if mitt romney wins this election that he won it in

the debates. >> eleanor. >> well, pat is right to the extent that the obama campaign, they are victims of their own success because they did caricture romney over the summer and all he had to do was show up and seem sort of reasonable and a lot of that caricture was wiped away. but to say that the president damaged his brand? who started the brawl the other night? the president was supposed to not fight back? i thought the president acquitted himself very well in the second debate. i think he stopped the bleeding that occurred after the first debate, and i certainly would agree that the first debate was a disaster for the president and he has acknowledged that and said that he was rested and ready for the second debate because of that nice long nap he had in the first debate, in the jokes at the al smith dinner. so i think we've got a very close race here. i think the president still maintains a small but apparently durable lead in the three states that will get him

to 271, ohio, wisconsin and iowa. >> michelle, let me giving this tracking poll by gallup. in the two days following the debate, gallup's daily tracking poll of likely voters shows romney rising from 50% to 52% and obama falling from 46% to 45%. what's significant about that poll? >> well, i mean, the fact that the polls are changing to governor romney's favor, even after that debate performance on monday, it was interesting to listen to pat and eleanor speak because i think when you talk about how people actually viewed the candidates, this is exactly the problem that both candidates have. i think white males looked at mitt romney's performance in the last two debates and saw something completely different than most people than african- americans, latinos and women saw it. so i don't think you see a lot of people thinking, for example, that barack obama deappreciatated the presidency, they were happy, they saw him as a leader, and they felt that he was finally showing leadership skills during that last debate performance.

so it is interesting to see that mitt romney's numbers are ticking up. but if you look at favorability ratings, his numbers are still not good. >> mort. >> i think the debates have been the passaic river ole moments in this -- the pivot ol issues in this campaign. more importantly from mitt romney's point of view, he came across as being presidential. he came across as being knowledgeable, he came across as being articulate, logical, so i think he transformed his image to a lot of people. >> mitt romney? >> yeah, mitt romney. >> i thought he came across as being incredibly rude and disrespectful of the presidency. oh, the first debate. >> yeah, that's just the first debate. in the second debate, if i may say, so if there's one person who really in a sense unbalanced the way the two of them were speaking was candy crowley. >> please. she was doing her job. >> i'm sorry, you have a version of her job, i have a different version of her job. she was a moderator of the panel. she wasn't to be a journalist in the sense of taking sides in

a debate which is what i felt. but having said that, okay, i think in a sense obama clearly the -- the president clearly did better. he was a lot more forceful, but he may have been too forceful. i felt that the issue of likability was really important. i thought that's what joe biden lost in his debate because of the way he handled it, where he was, you know -- everything was a laugh for him. >> every focus group shows that the voters are concerned that president obama isn't tough enough. >> exactly. >> he needed to show backbone, he needed to rally his base and he certainly did that. >> he did that. he did that. >> and joe biden did that as well. excuse me. i want to finish here. and the debates i agree with mort, you don't -- you don't need to smirk at me, mort. [ laughter ] >> i was smirking at buchanan. >> the debates are very critical in this internet age, the face-to-face captors are really important, otherwise we might have had governor rick perry as the republican nominee. >> hold on, pat. >> let me make a point. >> go ahead. >> biden and obama both did rally their base, biden in the

second -- the president in the second debate, biden. but by rallying their base, just like republicans in their primaries rally their base, they damage themselves in the center and among women. look at how mitt romney has moved among women in these two debates and how the biden have >> we're going to get that now. another tender trap, equality for women. >> i mentioned 3 1/2 million women more now in poverty than four years ago. what we can do to help young women and women of all ages is to have a strong economy, they bought us whole binders full of women. i was proud of the fact that after i staffed my cabinet and my senior staff that the university of new york in albany did a survey of all 50 states and concluded that mine had more women and senior -- in senior leadership positions than any other state in the america. >> the first bill i signed was something called the lilly ledbetter bill, and it was named after this amazing woman who had been doing the same job

as a man for years, found out that she was getting paid less and the supreme court said that she couldn't bring suit becaus it earlier. but she had no way of finding out about it. so we fixed that. >> question, are mitt romney's binders full of women, the equivalent in this debate as the big bird in the first debate? a lot of obama supporters will leap to lanpoon but a really trivia pursuit. >> i don't think it's trivial at all. that statement was incredibly clumsy and stupid. republican brand and the damage that has been done to the republican brand, the republican party's brand over the last year in terms of people talking about women putting between their legs for contraception, a state legislator in wisconsin saying one could argue that money is more important to men. all of you are laughing, it's not funny. that money is more important to men than it is to women. it is a very serious problem.

but why i believe mitt romney's numbers have climbed since the debate because of -- not because of his statement, but because people on the left have made the mistake of saying that any conservative woman who votes for mitt romney is stupid and your thing, red state feminists who are rising up and saying i'm not stupid because i'm a republican -- >> michelle, pat was laughing at you. i wasn't laughing. >> i know you were not laughing. >> can we get a male view in here? >> pat was laughing. you were mildly laughing. >> let's go. >> the romney campaign has an ad up which is actually a good ad of a former obama voter who says she looked into these charges that romney is extreme on abortion and she discovered that, oh, he accepts exceptions for rape, incest and life of the mother. and mitt romney is trying to have it both ways on the

abortion issue. he wants women and moderates to think he's the massachusetts moderate, massachusetts governor. he wants everybody to forget what he said during the primary -- >> john? can i get in? >> when he said he would sign a personhood amendment and when he supported the blunt amendment on capitol hill. >> let's get back to lilly ledbetter. >> yes, let's get back to lilly ledbetter. >> what are you doing, interrupting the which will on this panel? >> -- interrupting the women on this panel? >> i know you're giggling about lilly ledbetter as well, but a lot of women no who she is and what it stands for and equal pay is a huge issue. >> we have seen on this panel -- i mean, excuse me, semi hysteria over this issue. the feminists are running after this. mitt intended nothing wrong. he has a terrific record up there, he was given a binder. they said, well, they gave him the binder. the feminists are chasing this thing like some rabbit and you're losing losing --

>> no. retro, pat. >> he did populate husetts governor with women. okay. getting personal. >> any investments i have over the last eight years have been managed by a blind trust, and i understand they do include investments outside of the united states, including in chinese companies. mr. president, have you looked at your pension? have you looked at your pension? >> you know, i don't look at my pension. it's not as big as yours, so it doesn't take as long. >> let me give you some advice. look at your pensiohave investm chinese companies, you also have investments outside of the united states. >> question. why can president obama afford to be blassee about his pension, michelle? >> i actually thought it was funny and he can be blase about it because his pension not sneerly as large as mitt romney's. i think that was the point he was trying to make and it probably did very well with his base. >> well, at 51 he thinks it's a long way in the future as well. but i thought the exchange was a funny exchange. >> it was funny, yeah. >> but it does point out the hypocrisy on romney's part

about china. he's this big tough guy on the campaign trail about china, but he's investing in china at bain and company, he did a lot of work with china, so -- >> well, wait a minute. mort, you have investments in china? >> absolutely. >> you do? >> yeah. i sell magazines in china. we got at least eight people who subscribe to the magazine. >> how come they didn't bail out your magazine? you're only known on the net. like you, newsweek, can you imagine that? newsweek is going to be on the net. no printed edition. >> it'll reach millions on the net. >> the chinese do not bail out magazines or newspapers. the only thing that bails out magazines and newspapers are advertising and advertising has basically drifted away from print products and that's why they have to go on the web. >> you want romney to do anything about that? >> no, i do not. he's got a lot of other issues that are more important and i hope he follows one, and the most important is the economy. >> the newspaper and the printed magazines. >> but there is a serious issue here, both these candidates are

getting very tough on the chinese, on their exports and stuff. >> that's right. >> and they're roughing up relations with the chinese. this is a consequence of the whole globalization. that's why you've lost all those factories in ohio. >> do you think time magazine will be next? >> is your pension portfolio china free, john? >> i don't know. >> when we come back, i'll have to take that up. right

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bruceer. >> the day following the assassination of the united states ambassador, the first time that's happened since 1979, when we have four americans killed there, when apparently we didn't know what happened, that the president, the day after that happened, flies to las vegas for political fundraiser, then the next day to colorado for another event, another political event. >> the day after the attack, governor, i stood in the rose garden and i told the american people and the world that we were going to find out exactly what happened, that this was an act of terror and i also said that we're going to hunt down those who committed this crime. and then a few days later, i was there greeting the caskets coming into andrews air force base and grieving with the

families. and the suggestion that anybody on my team, whether the secretary of state, our u.n. ambassador, anybody on my team would play politics or mislead when we've lost four of our own, governor, is offensive. >> i think it's interesting the president just said something which is that on the day after the attack he went in the rose garden and said that this was an act of terror. you said in the rose garden the day after the attack it was an act of terror. it was not a spontaneous demonstration, is that what you're saying? >> please proceed, governor. >> i want to make sure we get that for the record because it took the president 14 days before he called the attack in ben gadzy an act of terror. >> get the transcript. >> i did, in fact, sir. so let me call it an act of terror. >> can you say that a little louder, candy? >> he did call it an act of terror [ applause ] >> it did as well take -- it did as well take two weeks or so for the whole idea of there

being a riot out there about this tape to come out, you're correct about that. [ applause ] >> the administration indicated this was a reaction to a video and was a spontaneous reaction. >> they did. >> it took them a long time to say this was a terrorist act by a terrorist group, and to suggest -- am i incorrect in that regard? on sunday your secretary -- >> candy. >> excuse me. the ambassador of the united nations, on one of -- went on the sunday television shows and spoke about was spontaneous. >> candy, i'm happy to have a longer conversation about this policy. >> i hope this doesn't muddy up the waters, but the cia station chief in libya reported to washington within 24 hours of last month's deadly attack on the u.s. consulate, that there was evidence that it was carried out by militants, not a spontaneous mob, upset about an american-made video ridiculing islam's prophet mohammed. u.s. officials polls out to the

associated press that came out friday noon by the a.p. now, where is this settling down? >> romney messed it up terribly. the day after the attack in a generic statement the president talked about acts of terror. he didn't say benghazi was an act of terror. not only the cia reported that, fox news, the day after, said intelligence guys say it's an act of trifl, yet two days later carney goes out and tells the press spontaneous -- >> in the airplane. >> carney went out and told the press, whatever it was, and five days later susan rice goes out on five television shows. >> right. >> with a script saying this is as a result of a spontaneous protest, it was not preplanned and not premeditated. the president said they did not mislead anybody. they did mislead a country. the question is did they deceive the country or was the intelligence so bad that it did not get to the top guys, but it did not get out to the country? so it was utter incompetence or

deceit and deception. >> or was it criminal? >> no. >> it is not criminal? >> no. they lied. they may have lied, we don't know. i don't think susan rice did. i think she was sent out. i think carney was sent out. >> no legal rap here? >> no. >> there will be an opportunity for a longer discussion about this in the foreign policy debate on monday. the president said let's have a longer conversation. secondly, romney did blow it in the debate. there was an opportunity there maybe he could have made the case, as egregious as it is, that you just made in a short amount of time. but what are you trying to claim here? that there's some sort of a coverup, that's -- coverup of what? susan rice can point to the intelligence thing. >> it's a coverup to keep his reputation as the great terrorist killer, no acts of trich on my watch, -- terrorism on my watch, al-qaida is on the run. >> the enig ma is susan susan rice not knowing anything about

it and in fact testifying to the contrary. >> if you would have the grace to play what she said, she conditioned her remarks. she said this is what we know at this time. >> yeah. which was certainly eroaneious. >> no. she was not totally erroneous. >> what did susan rice know and when did she know it? >> talk to hillary clinton. she talks about the fog of war and as things unfold on the ground and as events became clearer, the administration developed a fuller story. maybe they should have said right off the bat we don't think it's related to the film, but, you know, embassies are in flames in many places because of this film so i think there was a natural tendency to link it. but in the end what have you got here? >> you've got deception, that's what you have. >> for what reason? >> who knows. >> we don't know, but the bottom line is if you just look at the sequence that we just looked at during the debate, mitt romney made a colossal mistake and he is fighting tooth and nail for the

presidency, and he gave the president the opportunity to demonstrate to the entire country that he is the commander in chief. when you talk about that image of him greeting the caskets and saying very strongly that the acts of terrorism are not going to happen on my watch -- >> why is the key point eleanor raises? look, al-qaida, the president said, is on the run, on the path to defeat. it is all over the middle east now. it is in bali, it is in libya, it is in syria, it is in iraq, it is in saudi arabia, it is in pakistanthe cancer has metasized. >> al-qaida inspired people, if you will nobody is claiming this president or any president can stamp out all of the rage that exists in the world. and the republicans are going to -- >> and osama bin laden is gone. all of a sudden neocons think that doesn't matter. >> that is not the case. >> that will be an overstatement of what they have accomplished in dealing with al-

qaida, and we all know it. it's all over the place, as pat said. you follow any of the real intelligence reports now from many currents and they will tell you that. so that's the only thing that's being said and what susan rice said, if i may say was misleading. maybe she didn't know it, maybe nobody knew it. >> how could she not know it? >> i'm not going to answer that question because i don't have an answer to that question. >> why would she mislead? >> there's nothing to gain on it. >> it's in the direction of the white house. >> i don't think she lied, john. >> they're not going to send her out there with a story that's false. >> it shows incompetence on the part of the intelligence community that they didn't know two lays later -- two days later? >> hillary's answers have been perfect. >> that's her ambassador and the president's ambassador, why did she not go out? >> the president's ambassador, she's as close an adviser and friend when it comes to foreign policy. she's beyond being a normal ambassador. >> why did she go on the live

tv shows? >> i don't disagree because the answers of the administration do not fit. >> this is a hunch of conspiracies, though, when in fact people acting sort of with the knowledge they thought they had. >> look behind all this, eleanor. >> i look behind, but i don't look behind and invent corners and invent dots to be connected. >> on tuesday the president said that the situation is spiraling out of control, and yet in the light of that, she goes out there and says that -- she said what she said in front of the u.n. which obviously contradicts what he said. >> right. >> how could she go out and say that? >> i don't know what -- it doesn't make sense. i can't fit the pieces together. >> he didn't say benghazi was an act of terrorism. what she said was not inconsistent with what the president said. >> she said it was an act of terror. >> somebody fed susan rice this line and i think they damaged her very badly and i'm not sure she's at fault. >> there was a mob and a big conflict. >> not

fast, two weeks from tuesday, who's going to win? >> who wins ohio wins. >> president obama. >> obama. >> obama can't keep a job when so many people have