and around the country similar protests turned violent. last night protesters in baton rouge blocked police and thats when police enry came in and one one arrested for standing in the road after protesters were repeatedly ordered to get out and stay on the grass. in st. paul, minnesota protests continued with some people violently targeted the police. at least five st. paul police officers were injured when protesters hurled rocks, bottles, fire works and bricks. no officer was seriously hurt.ñi an interstate was closed for five hours and in new york there were mostly peaceful

back in baton rouge more protests are scheduled. one one booked and charged with simple obstruction of a highway. we're told he may get out of jail later today or early tomorrow morning. >> thank you. deray mckesson was scheduled to appear on the broadcast and live streamed his arrest through his phone on social media last night.çó >> you're under arrest. don't fight me. >> we turn now to the investigation and aftermath of the attack onñr dallas police officers. mike rawlings joined us. what's the latest we've

here. >> well, we keep looking into his files and talking to his neighbors and family. our objective is to see if there's anybody that aided, abettedñi him, conspired with h. we don't have any new news in that regards. that's probably going to take some days. >> there were others arrested immediately afterwards on the scene. what can you tell us about those arrests. >> you know, in dealing with the law of gun holding you can carry a rifle legally and when you have gunfire going on youñr usually go with the person that's got a gun and ao a police officer grabbed some of those individuals, took them to police headquarters and worked it out and figured out they were not the shooters but that is onef

right issues we face that in the middle of a firefight it's hard to pick out the good guys and bad guys. >> did that complicate the issue at the moment? i wasn't there real time to see it go on but the common sense would tell you don'tñi know whe the gunfire's coming from. there were individuals that ran across the gunfire. they were in the body armor and cammo gear with rifles over their shoulders so it took the eye off the ball for the moment. we got them out of the way and figured out what was happening and did our business. >> you were in on the decision to use a bomb in the end to kill the shooter. tell us about that. >> itñr was a difficult decisio because the safety of our police officers were in our mind. we had just lost so many and we

had had those shot. so the chief had two options and he went with this one. i supported him completely because it was the safest way to approach it and we talked to this man a long time and he threatened to blowup police officers. we went to his home and saw there was bomb making equipment later so it was important we realized he may not be bluffing and we asked him if he wanted to come out safely or stay there and we'll take you down and he chose the latter. >> it was a model for which he community and police relations there and after the week what was dallas doing. force complaint were at a two-decade low. what can they learn from dallas from the shooting? >> first of all training of our police officers is first and foremost. i'm so pr

they were one of the first to train in deescalation and how do you deal with individuals and protect yourself and protect them and get them dealt with in the right manner. second community policing is important and the third, supporting police officers is important in this. recruiting is down across the nation for police officers and we have to make this a noble profession and we can't let a very very small few impact this noble profession so doing all three of those and getting the right officers on board and training them correctly is what we're all about. >> finally mr. mayor the dallas morning news has a front page editorial says now we face a test. what's the test for dallas as you see it? >> well, i think we are a laboratory for the united states. can we in a moment o

when officers are fallen forgive. can we disagree without d demonizing. can we see a better narrative opposed to absurdity that there's ra way to rebuild the city. >> thank you for being with us this morning. >> thank you, john. >> joining us now from new york city, police commissioner william bratton and secretary johnson. secretary johnson, you said there's no link to a terrorist organization here but the shooting in dallas was by any definition terrorism and a hate crime wasn't it? >> well, there's still an investigation being conducted by the dallas police department and by the fbi supported by lots of otheres

government and the federal government. it's still relatively early. we do know from chief brown that this individual apparently told the hostage negotiator he wanted to kill white police especially white police officers. in fact i think that's almost a quote. this is obviously a terrible act. it appears to have been targeted at police officers, particularly white police officers and it's a time to come together to heal and mourn but to rememberñr tha the shooter is notñr reflectivef the larger movement to bring about change that was out in dallas to peacefully demonstrate and those who engage in enforcement force in the law enforcement community aren'tñi reflective of the larger community. it's critical to remember an eye for an eye yields everybody blind. it's the time to heal and come together and time to

for us the pressure that police officers are feeling with the heightened scrutiny of those who have ñrmisbehaved as police officers and in the wake of the shooting. >> it'sçó a time of great presse there's always pressure on american police officers. it's been going through profound changes in the last 20 year and constant improvement in training and use of force and continuing efforts in recent years to teach our officers deescalation techniques and trying to see the community and have the community see them. policing is a shared responsibility. it's all about dialog and understanding each other and seeing each other and hearing each

from the community. we don't bring them in from mars. they come from the communities they police and over the years with more diversity there's increasing numbers of african american and latino officers and that's a good thing because the community want to see that and that's part of the way we bridge the divide. a divide that's beenñi closing d açó divide we hope over time especially in new york i can speak for our efforts the last several years to not only bridge the divide but close it. i'm optimistic in the issue. >> as someone who had police officers killed in a similarñr incident did you see this coming? >> i will speak for myself we have had a relatively peaceful ne

we've been engaging in dialog. i've had close to 600 meetings with community leaders and activists andñi we've had a relatively long period of stabilityñr in new york city. we've increased the training of our personnel and increasing de escalation techniques and it'sç been a time of healing. did we see it coming, no but you plan for the worse and hope for the best dallas was beyond anybody's ability to speculate or even think about. the first time in american history an attack of that scale. we had that in new york in the 1970s the black liberation army basically killing several new york city police officers but something like dallas who could have ever thought something like that would occur here in the united states. >> secretary johnson you've talked about the balance between homeland security and american

is on the law enforcement front between balancing the law and the freedoms of citizens. >> that's an excellent question, john. the balance is best struck when you have effective community policing where the law enforcement, peace officer is regarded as açó friend in a lotf neighborhoods. we're not a police-state and the best way to strike that balance is when the public and law enforcement is working together at protection, at community peace and so i think that's the key and that's something that in these days we we need to dedicate ourselves towards. >> we'll be back in a minute.

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>> and we're back with the head of the naacp cornell williams brooks. the words, context and balanced. president obama said things aren't as bad as they were in the 1960s. do you believe that? >> many believe the glass is half full in despair and hope and we should note the culture is full of the capacity to effect change. we have thousands of young people in the streets of this country. they're in the streets of this country protesting and dem onñr -- demonstrating. it's an

country and that's a good things. racial relations have improved but not where they should be particularly when a young black man is 21 more times likely to lose his life and an unarmed african american man is seven times more likely to lose his at the hands of enforcement and we have the conviction we can be better still. >> talking about the police. there are pictures captured in these horrendous videos and one is saying don't paint the other with the broad brush. talk about the changes you think need to be made and respect people who are brave and take risks and serve their community. >> we have to be

in other words, we have to understand what fuels racial profiling as a country is african americans are seen as a cloak of suspicious. white skin being a robe of protection or respectability. we have to get beyond pr presumptions and stereotypes. there are police officers stepping forward and supporting a reform in the ranks. we have to stand with them. in oer words, those who honor their badges we need to support but we need to be clear it's a moment in the country of urgency. you have 509 people who lost their lives at the hands of police this year. 990 last year. we have at least 24 people ahead in the grim calculus. we have to address this problem because we're at a moment where we know what to do. the

recommendation from his 21st century policing task force. the naacp released a report. we need the will to get it right. >> what three things need to change. >> at the federal level passing the racial profiling act to the law enforcement integrity act and civilian boards. we know what to do but at the end of the day to bring about the change we need we need to ensure every demonstrator is a voter and we show up en masse and analyst millions at the polls in november because we need reform at the state and municipal and federal level and

call upon our presidential candidates to address it in their party platforms and in their campaigns. >> cornell william brooks, thank you for welcome back us. >> thank you. >> and we'll be right back in a moment.

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because safety is never being satisfied. and always working to be bette >> joining us now is elijah ings who's direct was the scene of freddie gray. let's start with this, what would you tell a young african american 18-year-old man who asks what does my future look like? >> i would tell him he's going to have a lot of barriers to get to where he has to go and but he can make it. i would tell him to do everything in his power to

good education but i would also tell him to be careful in whatever he does. >> does that mean be careful in interactions with police? >> no doubt about it. and one of the sad things about what happened in minnesota is he was a man who was doing everything right, john. he said, look, i've got a gun. i'm authorized to carry it and next thing you know he's dead. i think that what has happened is that a lot of people don't understand what it's like for african american men and boys to know that at any moment you're going to be pulled over and that you're life could end and a lot of folks can't understand that. >> these videos are so powerful. >> very powerful. >> and yet in a political sense you saw secretary of homeland security with

bratton that he stands with the police. and the focus on improving policing has maybe gotten painted with too broad a brush with all police. >> when these incidents happen in dallas, minnesota, baton rouge people say we have to go to a corner and fight for good policing and want the respect of police in the african american community. they think you're against police but on the other hand they don't understand that there's pain when these things happen in the african american community and john there's also pain by and americans when police are murdered like they were in dallas and a lot of times people don't understand that. and all basically people are asking for is respect. you talk about disturbances.

commissioner now requires new recruits to go out three and a half months once they're on the force and all they do is go throughout the community policing and get an idea of who they are working with. we don't have time to turn against each other. we have to turn towards each other. >> tell me about the aftermath of baltimore. it was such a central part of the conversation. where do things stand now? >> well, we've had now four trials. we're in the fourth one now and there was a hung jury and there were two non-guilty verdicts and three trials going on and two more. you know what, people saw justice being carried out and we did not have the loud protests. there were peaceful protests but small and people understood justice was happening and that's

charges ever filed and those are things people are concerned about. they see police doing things like they did in minneapolis, minnesota and then say there was a bad act but are there consequences? >> that's what i wonder about in baltimore. you had the hung jury and two acquittals. that's not a consequence for freddie gray who died after being in custody. >> they asked for justice and justice is rolling. you cannot guarantee results with justice. i think people -- i think one of the reasons people have not gotten as upset is because they believe justice is happening. >> president obama said in his press conference there's times when activists may have

rhetoric. what do you see with rhetoric in respect to the police? >> i think we have to be careful in what we say from our leaders to what people put on facebook. because people do have a tendency to act on certain things and you have to be very careful. i think the rhetoric can get loud and people react to that. we have to make sure we understand that the community needs to police and the police need the community. we're all in this together. >> thank you so much for doing this. >> thank you. >> and we'll be right back.

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>> welcome back to "face the nation." with us now is former new york city mayor rudy giuliani. i want to ask you about former speaker newt gingrich said. >> i agree largely with the sentiments of elijah cummings. we have to look differently at race if we're going to change it. we've been looking at it the same way 20 years and here's where we are. first i want to say my deep sympathy for the peep of pennesota, people of louisiana,

i'd like them all to remember though the incidents happened in different ways they all share together as americans. we share the violence together as americans. so maybe whites have to look at it differently and blacks have to look at it differently. whites have to realize black african-american men have a fear and some may consider it irrational but it's a reality and exists and there's a second reality in the black community and the second reality is there's too much violence in the black community. a black will die 1% or less at to the hands of the police and 99% of the hands of a civilian, most often another black. so if you want to protect black lives not just against police which

tremendous attention and every 14 hours in chicago. every 14 hours and we never hear from black lives matter. if you want to deal with this on the black side, you've got to teach your children to be respectful to the police and you've got to teach your children that the real danger to them is not the police, the real danger to them 999 of 1,000 times are other black kids that will kill them is the way they'll die. now on the white side we have to understand whether we get it or not there's an extraordinary fear of the police and police have to institute a policy of zero tolerance like we did for crime in new york. zero tolerance. no disrespect. 14 year

began a program called courtesy, professionalism and respect conditione conditioned--continued by the commissioner you just had on now. >> you said they have to understand what's happening in the black community and mayors have to teach their children how to act in front of the police. they conflict. >> of course they don't. if i was a black father and concerned with the safety of my child, really concerned about it i'd say respectful of the police, most of them are good. some can be very bad and be very careful. i'd also say be very careful of those kids in the neighborhood and don't get involved with them because son, there's a 99% chance they're going to kill you not the police. we have to hear that from t

to hear from the black community is how and what they are doing among themselves about the crime problem in the black community. whether there's 60 shootings in chicago other the 4th of july and black lives matter is nonexistent and a shootings that questionable do black lives matter or only those killed by white policeman and not those killed by other blacks and on the black side what they hear from us is constantly defending the police. now, i'll give you an example. i had a police officer who brutally attacked a gentlemen. that police officer is now sitting in jail for 25 years due to the work of my

officers and police commissioner and i had those wrongly accused and acquitted by a jury though mobs were calling for them to be put in jail despite a jury found them not guilty. they're complicated issues. >> you said the black lives matter movement put targets on the backs of police officers. when they see videos from the past week they feel there's a target on young black men. explain your response on how they put a target on police officers and it doesn't match up when people see these videos. >> when they talk about killing police officers -- >> but they don't. >> they sure do. they sing rap songs about killing police officers and yell it out at rallies -- >> the reality is -

you say black lives matter that's inherently racist. black lives matter, hispanic lives matter. it's anti-american and racist. of course black lives matter but when you focus on less than 1% of the murders going on in america and you make it a national thing and all of you in the media make it much bigger than the black kid getting killed in chicago every 14 hours you create a disproportion. the police understand it and it puts a target on their back. every cop in america will tell you that if you ask him. >> mayor giuliani. thanks for being with us. >> thank you. >> and sherilynn ifill head of the naacp head

defense legal fund and we welcome wesley lawry of the washington post to the broadcast and thank him for coming in at the last minute and our correspondent jeff pegues who is covering the story for us and writing a book called "black and blue: aggressive policing, racial tension and the crisis in american law enforcement." does every police officer feel they have a target on their back? >> today is probably the most difficult time in american history to be a police officer. a couple points, first of all the police officers out in the streets today are worried about active shooters and clearly worried about the racial tensions we see and they're palpable but the point th

lost is the breakdown in the social system from homelessness, joblessness, addiction gets laid at the feet of police officers and they still have to do their day jobs and deal with gang violence, the rise in violent crime and a do think as commissioner bratton said it's a very difficult time to be a police officer and the mere fact you're out in uniform i do feel there's a target on the officers' backs. >> to get clarity you named a number of things which are large societal things and when you talk about a target as mayor giuliani saying black lives matters put a target on those police officers. >> i think it's some of the rhetoric we're hearing out there. unfortunately i think there's people pole

we need to work together. the iacp has been working with the federal government and white house. this isn't new to us. we've been working on this for a long time and set up an institute for community police relations. in the fall of 2014 we had a summit on police relations and had the rival rights there and naacp and aclu and members of policing from around the country to discuss the issues and published it. i saw the report that came out of that. we're continuing to do that and just about every person you heard on your show talked about police training is what iacp has done has tried to support that whether it's fair and impartial policing and policing a democratic society is what we tried to further. >> your response to mayor giuliani. >> i hesitate to make my response because

confron confronted with is the policing and he presided over a period in new york which is responsible for a lot of the tension between police officers and african-american communities. the reason why it's so difficult for young african-american men and all of us today and police officers is because of what has been revealed in the last two years and what has been revealed is the reality in african-american communities. it's convenient to talk about black lives matter because people now know the buzz words. my predecessor dealt with the issue of violence of police officers against young african-americans. this is has now been revealed to the american public largely because of cell phone videos to see what has happened a

with something that's been revealed in stead of concealed. we cannot act there's a golden age of trust we need to return to. if we're honest with ourselves we're creating a policing that never created before and trying to create relationships and trust where it didn't exist before and take a fresh look at what it means to be a law enforcement officer and open up communication to communities of color not to lecture them how to talk to their kids. parents of african-american boys and children are scared with their encounters. that's what's talked about. in community meetings that's what's talked about. when i hear black on black crime and mayor giuliani has never come into our communities and be

conversations, attend our rallies when we talk about peace in you're communities. >> deray you've been in touch with his friends. give us an update on what's happening? >> the activist linked to the protests is still in custody where he was protesting in solidarity. he's still in custody. there's rumors he may be released by 1:00 and it was 4:00 a.m. and 7:00 a.m. and what we know from watching the arrest is he and other activists were walking at the side of a highway on the shoulder and officers were saying don't cross in the street and based on the videos we've seen it doesn't appear he or anyone had crossed the street but suddenly he was taken into custody by officers. it's not unlike many

ground covering protests in many cities. i've seen people picked up on the street that way many times activists and otherwise. >> keith, let me ask you about this, you're not here to defend the baton rouge police department but give us perspective in how these things play out because in talking to activists and police they have to find a way to accommodate this and seemed to have been doing that in dallas before shots rang out. >> i think i would say where any demonstration is peaceful police are there and when it turns to a riotous behavior or where the crowd gets out of control they have to change tactics but i would point back to the dallas police department. i think they did an incredible job that night they were protecting demonstrators and

assemble and free speech. people talk about the guardian versus other roles and when the shots rang out and you saw officers running towards the gunfire to protect people and you saw officers put themselves between the bullets and protesters. they were human shields to protect those people. that can't be lost on us. i saw black, white, hispanic, male, female they were there to protect protesters. and that's what's important to remember in the nation. >> i'll pause there and i'll start with you about what solutions may be happening and who's doing it right and how much more we have to do. we'll take a break and be right back.

[000:44:54;00] chantix definitely helped reduce my urge to smoke. some people had changes in behavior, thinking or mood, hostility, agitation, depressed mood and suicidal thoughts or actions while taking or after stopping chantix. some had seizures while taking chantix. if you have any of these, stop chantix and call your doctor right away. tell your doctor about any history of mental health problems, which could get worse or of seizures. don't take chantix if you've had a serious allergic or skin reaction to it. if you have these, stop chantix and call your doctor right away as some can be life-threatening. tell your doctor if you have heart or blood vessel problems, or develop new or worse symptoms. get medical help right away if you have symptoms of a heart attack or stroke. decrease alcohol use while taking chantix. use caution when driving

or operating machinery. being a non-smoker feels great. ask your doctor if chantix is right for you. over time. what's the state of things and are there places where the relationships are getting better between the community and police? >> i think there are places, big cities, small cities. there's been an effort since ferguson to increase the diversity of the police force. we're coming up on two years

from ferguson and based on what i've seen going out into chicago. i was in chicago without a camera just an iphone recording what people are saying, interviewing people there over the memorial day weekend and what i found is the underlying problem is still there. there remains a lack of trust. i don't know if you increase community police it's not going to address the problem? >> why isn't it going to address the problem. tell us why it's not working. >> we heard what mayor giuliani said and if you talk to people in the communities and certainly if they hear what he just said as the mayor of dallas said a couple days ago, words matter. based on what he was saying about black families it shows

that he has and i'm sure some of the rv and talk to people there it shows a lack of understanding what the root of the problem is. there's a history of mistrust between the black community and law enforcement and that's at the root here and two years out from ferguson it's not been addressed and you won't get to the root of the problem in the people like rudy giuliani go to the community and talk to the people who live there and get a sense for what they really feel and at the root of the problem. >> what newt gingrich was saying is you wrote about the dallas police department. >> i wrote it in a piece about the reform efforts there. >> why was it working there? >> we're talking about a relatively low bar because no police department has it perfectly and we're still working to overcome the history

of the issue but dallas in the 1970s and 1980s was the worse part of the country and killings and shootings in responses there and over time you had both the election of black local officials who started to come in in the mayor's office and the current chief and district attorneys and justices and a shift in the ethos requiring accountability if and when an officer is involved in a shooting. i work on a team for the washington post that cover police shootings full time and one reason we can't move forward is we don't grasp the facts. when mayor giuliani black men are almost never killed by police it's just not true. what we know is the washington post data says there's been 512

le them have been black. that's almost a dead black person every day this year and while we love and respect our police officers they're not that often killed in the line of duty. once a week a police officer is killed. three times a day a police officer takes the life of an american citizen. a criminal killing is not the same as the state or government or police officer killing someone. >> one reason there's still the mistrust is because i think what the community is waiting for is they understand the rule of law applies to them and they invest they'll be arrested if there's a black on black crime and catch the perpetrator the perpetrator will be prosecuted and go to jail. they want to know when a police officer takes a life that is

unlawful that police officer will also face and the rule of law and too often -- right now we're in baltimore in the middle of the trials. someone's responsible for breaking the spine of voice box of freddy gray. the second piece is ownership of the problem. ownership of the problem cannot simply fall on african-americans. we were listening to mayor rudy giuliani because he's one of the people that no matter police officers did always defend them. we see this with spokespersons for police unions. we want to hear from police officers and we want to come together and talk in the same way we have asked to take responsibility. >> no cop can control what

another cop does but all cops will be judged by what another do we see this with what happens in minnesota and what does it do for normal cops just trying to do their job. >> first i ask folks not to rush to judgment on the incidents because we haven't seen the full investigation and the videos tapes are a snippet and snapshot in time so i'd wait for the investigation. i do think it's a difficult thing for the police to deal with. i'd like to go back and talk about the collection of data police shootings because i think it's important. first it's an embarrassment to our profession we have to rely on the media to collect that data and we have been working to develop a platform to capture our data. it's our data. we shouldn't be afraid of it. we should be able to look at it and aggregate it and look at it and see what it means whether we need to change training or adapt

technologies or it's an embarrassment we don't have that data ourselves to deal with and i do think with the shootings we see out there we need to hold our officers accountable. no question about it. i think police administrators need to say there are bad cops. i'm not talking about louisiana and minnesota because i don't want to rush to judgment there yet but there are bad cops and administrators need to hold them accountable. >> we'll have to leave it there. thanks to all of you and we'll be right back.

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