captioning sponsored by cbs

obama had wiretapped trump tower dump the campaign? >> you will remember, the so-called gang of eight. who got this information, have you seen anything to suggest there is wiretaps? >> no. >> dickerson: question will also talk this morning to two of the most vocal critics of the healthcare replacement bill in the senate, one from either side of the aisle. republican rand paul of kentucky and democratic bernie sanders of the vermont. and we will have plenty of political analysis of all the week's news, it is coming right up on "face the nation". >> >> dickerson: good morning and welcome to "face the nation". i am john dickerson. for the most part this past week president trump has been working behind the scenes to fulfill one of his biggest campaign promises, repealing and replacing obamacare. that left the public spotlight to house speaker paul ryan, who went as far as rolling up his sleeves and making his case with charts and graphs. when we sat down with the speaker yesterday, he told us he was excited about the reaction to the bill. >> dke

conservative governors and conservative members of the house and aarp, the american medical association, american hospital association, the health insurance lobby, all coming out against this. you are pleased with the reaction, the reaction has been awful. >> i wouldn't say the reaction has been awful. i think the reaction is, everybody wants to compare this to obamacare as if they can keep these guarantees going, as if we are going to have obamacare plans and we are just going to finance ate different way. this is repealing and replacing obamacare so this first part is very, very important. it repeals the entire fiscal pieces to law and replaces it with patient centered system, and the point s a lot of people who you just mentioned i think they would like to see us continue to make americans buy what we say they should buy. we don't -- >> dickerson: the critics come from the conservative side. >> look, when you are a governing party getting consensus among your wide, big tent party, not -- everybody doesn't get what they want, but we are getting much better policy here. let me put it this way. obamacare is collapsing. if we just

our hands of the situation, we would see a further collapse of the health insurance markets, so we feel an obligation to step in front of that collapse and replace this with one that works and that has more freedom, some people like it to be done a little bit differently, the point here though is we have an obligation. we made a promise to the people who elected us who would have, we would repeal and replace this law and basically said this is what we would replace it with and now we are keeping our word. >> dickerson: there have been so many people picking at different pieces and issues of it, on your side, the other side, cotton from arkansas, lindsey graham from south carolina have both said, let's slow down. why go so fast? that is. >> that is actually really puzzling to me, why go so fast? let me see, we ran for peel and replace in 2010, we ran on repeal and replace in 2012, 2014, in 2016, oh by the way we spent six months last year developing a replacement plan and ran on that replacement

>> this has been a long deliberative process. suggesting this is moving fast, going through four committees, going through regular order, saying you are going to do this for seven years and now come to the point where we are actually on the cusp of keeping our word, i hardly think that is rushing things. >> dickerson: the point is, this is historic, this is. >> this is historic and significant and if we don't act, the system is going to collapse and the beautiful thing about this plan that we are proposing, it is more freedom, it is more choices, it is more markets and lower prices which gets us better access. >> dickerson: you say you ran on that, that's like saying some day we are going to buy a car and now we are talking about the actual car and legislation. >> we said this is what the car is going to look like. >> dickerson: all of these analyses are coming out are based on actual legislation, not while you were campaigning but actual details at issue here. everything from tax credits to the individual mandate, all of that stuff is being debated afresh now in a way -- which -- we love this kind of debate,

when you if you can't get 51 votes in the senate will you have accomplished something? >> well, i believe we can get 51 votes out of the senate, this is what the legislative process looks like, when you are going through a deliberative legislative process, not ramming and januarying things but going through all the committees and going through the entire process, people are going to try to negotiate and people would say we, wish we could do this, that, that's how legislation works. negotiations and compromises occur when you are writing law and what we are seeing and hearing is just that. >> dickerson: the president, he is the first marketer president, how helpful has he been in applying the marketer skill to selling this thing? >> tremendously, actually, he has been very helpful and extremely geangd with various members of congress, i talked to him constantly -- >> dickerson: has he given you advice on how to sell it? >> sure and we talk, it is a very good collaboration. everybody has been working on the same page, not rival plans, working together. so i am actually really excited that we have a preside

engaged and fully committed to keeping this. >> his promise, the same promise we made to the people who elected us in getting this done. >> dickerson: you say keeping his promise, he has promised a lot for this legislation. he said everybody will be covered, he said costs will go down and 0 will be able to pick your doctor even in company insurance plans you can't pick your doctor there are limits on that. he said that you will be able to pick whatever plan you want. he is over promising. >> look, here is the point. >> dickerson: he is over promising? >> i can't speak to all of those. i don't know what, that is all he said. he said we will repeal and replace obamacare with a better system, one that gives better access to more affordable choices and you pick what you want. we are not going to have -- >> dickerson: read his speech he gave to congress just a few weeks ago. that speech perfectly encapsulized what we are achieving here, and i think people are missing the historical nature of, this we are taking one entitlement that is going bankrupt, medicaid ands where lower income people don't get access to a doctor and giving it backs to the states

and make it better for low-income statement. >> we are taking another entitlement, obamacare which is crashing and hurting our fiscal situation and equalizing the extreme, tax stream of healthcare and gives more choice and freedom, that means lower costs across the board so you can improve access. >> dickerson: i will talk about some of that in a minute. the president has said there will be a bloodbath in 2018 if this a isn't passed in the senate -- >> i believe if we don't keep our word to the people who sent us here, i believe, yes. look, the most important thing for a person like myself who runs for office and tells the people that we are asking to hire if i get elected. and then if you don't do that, you are breaking your word. >> dickerson: you said you are working hand in glove with the president on selling this new healthcare plan. but move the weekend, before you were going to launch this sales campaign the president sends out four tweets about his predecessor wiretapping him, did that help orur

>> that wasn't really part of the healthcare marketing campaign. >> dickerson: yes. >> how much off course did that take you? >> like i said this is going to be an unconventional presidency and i think he was just upset about -- >> dickerson: there is upset and then really off into new territory. >> look, this is part of what the intelligence committee is investigating. both the house intelligence committee and the senate intelligence committee are going through all of this. that is the proper place for this. and by the way, we have been presented with no evidence that anybody, any american was in collusion with the russian with meddling with our election, we knew that before the election and said so. >> dickerson: you and i have talked about the importance of public figures making a case, you doing it right now with healthcare, to the public base odd ten set of facts, you make your argument about your facts, the other person makes their argument and the people make a decision. how can that happen in a situation where you have a president who is saying things that, where the director of the fbi, the former dni -- >> there has been a lot of reporting about this,

investigation by the intelligence committee -- >> dickerson: on the wiretap of donald trump -- >> that's what the intelligence committee is going to report. there has been a lot of reporting about this all over the place. get to the bottom and make sure is intelligence committee investigates these things and i think when we get through all of the investigation i think we will discover they didn't do those things but russia tried to meddle with our election. >> dickerson: there is a serious charge, the president is saying the predecessor put illegal wiretaps on him, that is not a basket of charges that have been discussed in the paper before, that is a new thing and i wonder if you feel like senate graham does when a president makes this kind of a bombshell charge that you can't just wait for the committees to kind of get to the work. this isn't something you want to just linger out there. do you -- what do you feel about that? >> well, that is outside of my control what is tweeted or what isn't tweeted. we are focused on healthcare and the president is focused on healthcare. i think he is frustrated with this whole thing about russia and i k

with what selective leaks coming from parts of government that malign his campaign. >> the reason we think are the intelligence committees to do this, the last thing we want to do is compromise the sources and methods of our intelligence gathering so that we get to the bottom of all of this. but, yes, there has been a lot of selective leaking, i think in many ways meant to malign the presidency and meant to get him off to a bad start and he is pressing that frustration. >> dickerson: you are in the so-called gang of eight, the top leaders who get this information. have you seen anything to suggest there are wiretaps a? >> no. >> dickerson: could you clear up this question of -- >> again, i don' i don't want tt ahead of the intelligence committee so i don't want to get ahead of the intelligence committee and their thorough investigation. >> dickerson: and now we will get some answers soon after the intelligence asked the justice department to turn over any specific evidence they have related to any possible wiretaps at trump tower, and we will have more questions and get some more answers from speaker ryan later in our broadcast. right now we turn to the

of the new plan, yesterday vice president traveled to kentucky perhaps to put a little pressure on one of the bill's most vocal opponents, republican senator rand paul who is with us now, welcome, senator, what is is wrg with this bill? >> i think it is basically obamacare light. it keeps the subsidies, keeps the taxings for a year, then keeps the cadillac tax forever, the tax on good insurance. it keeps the individual mandate, interestingly, republicans have complained for years and we didn't like the government was going to make you pay a meant, well now instead of paying the penalty to the government you pay the meant to the insurance industry. there is also in the insurance industries, the one primary thing that is wrong with obamacare, this is what everybody, is that premiums are rising and -- through the roof, soaring in the individual market. that will happen under the ryan plan as well because it does nothing to fix the fundamental problem. what. >> dickerson: what paul brian is saying you are missing the forest for the trees which you are missing this is changing

making it something that goes back to the state and getting rid of the obama care entitlement and getting health savings accounts which republicans -- >> let's start with the medicaid expansion, it may be fundamentally changing it or not. built into medicaid, they are going to block grant it with a fixed amount of money and go up about five percent a year it goes up at cpi, an indicator of inflation in the medical community, which is going up at about four percent, plus one, so it is going to go up at about five percent a year, the question is that a lot slower than what medicaid is going up now? is it quicker? i think it is still building in the growth of an entitlement program that really isn't paid for. under obamacare i think it was dishonest accounting, it says the federal government will pay for medicaid, 100 percent of it but we have no money, we dole a million dollars a minute on a trillion-dollar debt, it is dishonest, it sounds good, give stuff for free, free healthcare but it is not free, we are borrowing it from china which really threatens our country from within. >> dickerson:

retains the individual mandate. the argument is that if you don't have something to get healthy people into the insurance market, it will end up just being sicker and older people and that's why proposes go up. >> that's right, the fundamental premise of obamacare we have to have healthy people buy it so give them a mandate. hoo search is the interesting thing, left and right people are really looking at this, it is going to get worse. the individual that's correct will get worse when you get rid of the individual mandate and make it an insurance mandate sway slightly lesser penalty and so more and more stick people will be in the pool and let's say you lost your job and you lost your insurance. do you have any incentive to get back in and pay the penalty? no, the people say it is a disincentive to buy insurance, why don't you wait until you are sick? so really you can't have an insurance model where people wait until they are sick to get insurance. it doesn't work and here is the problem with ryan's plan. he keeps that fundamental aspect of obamacare. he doesn't change it. >> dickerson: you say that sp

really? mulling the wool? >> i think there is a separation between the two. i have talked to the president, i think three types on obamacare and i hear from him he is willing to negotiate. i hear from paul ryan? it is a binary choice, young man, but what is a binary choice 19? his way or the highway. >> dickerson: his argument would be, binary choice you do this now through reconciliation, a senate process that is kind of a pain and then you have a second piece of legislation -- >> what we are hearing is a binary choice, it is ryan plan or the status quo. and what he rammed through his committee is his without any amendments and that's a question. if we get what we have got from ryan, obamacare light, he will not have the votes and we have to get to that point before true negotiations begin. right now, i think there is a charm offensive going on, everybody is being nice to everybody, because they want us to vote for this but we are not going to vote for it. >> you talked, toly get to the senate in a second but you say you spoke with the president, where do you think he is willing to negotiate on these issues you have highlighted? >> i don't think the president is rigid in h

house bill, i think he is open to seeing ho how we can get consensus and what i told the president and what i am telling everybody, we are united on repeal, not so much on replacement. we do not free with the fundamental three or four things that ryan has, subsidies, taxes, mandates, insurance bailout, that is obama care, we don't want that. if you take that off, what do you have? you have got repeal. now what do you do help -- >> dickerson: just repeal by itself? >> i would do replacement in a separate bill buzz what i would do in replacement, there are two things you have to do to fix the individual market, you have to tell people that they can buy any kind of insurance they want. >> dickerson: so you get on the mandates of what goes into insurance but also allow for people to join a buying group. if people join a healthcare association or a coop, that drives down -- it is not in obamacare light -- but the reason it has to be discussed at the at the same time is, they are going to come out and say a lot of people are not covered so how will we cover

i would cover them with something much better than obamacare, and that would be joining a coop to drive down proos prices but also to get guaranteed issue where you won't get dropped. >> dickerson: you said there is a room perhaps for negotiation with the president but mike members is in your, mike pence is in your state to repeal and replace obamacare for, we need every republican in congress, that sound like he is talking to you. >> i think that is the prenegotiation, we are still in the prenegotiation period, when the negotiation period comes and i promise this is the way it works, we will get obamacare light, ryan's plan and there are enough conservatives in the house to say no, if there are enough to say no when they start voting on the rules of debate, if they bring down the rule, if they stop him in the racks, then true negotiations begin, no negotiation right now -- until they determine to have enough votes to stop obamacare light. >> dickerson: let me ask you a question on wiretapping because i know that is an issue you care a lot about. there are your colleagues lindsey graham and senator -- who said this claim

wiretapped as a candidate by president obama, they say it is too incendiary to wait for the committees to adjudication and they should bring forth any evidence they have. does that bother you? >> i think the first thing to realize, i think everybody is getting the story wrong, i doubt trump was a sorry target directly but i am not saying it didn't happen. it may have. i don't have any special information but the way it works the guy is a court through section 702 wiretaps foreigners and then listens to americans. it is a back door search of americans, and because they have so much data, they can tap -- type donald trump into their vast resources of people that are tapping overseas and they get all of these phone calls, and so they did -- president obama, 1,227 times eavesdropped on president obama's phone calls and then they mask him, but here is the problem, and general hayden said this the other day, he said even low level employees can unmask the caller, that

probably what happened to flynn, they are not targeting americans, they are targeting foreigners, but they are doing it purposefully to get to americans. >> dickerson: okay. so your point is the president would have been call -- excuse me, a candidate trump calling -- >> or one of his associates but it is very dangerous, because they are revealing that now to the public. >> dickerson: thank you, senator we ran out of time. next a much different view from bernie sandersers. >> it's off to work we go! woman: on the gulf coast, new exxonmobil projects are expected to create over 45,000 jobs. and each job created by the energy industry supports two others in the community. altogether, the industry supports over 9 million jobs nationwide. th ese are jobs that natural gas is helping make happen, all while reducing america's emissions. energy lives here.

we are joined by vermont senator bernie sanders who is in burlington this morning. senator sanders, house speaker paul ryan thinks that his legislation can get 51 votes in the senate. what do you think? >> well, i sure hope not, john. it is an absolute disaster. it is a disgrace, and by the way, this really has nothing to do with healthcare. what, but this has everything to do with

wealth from working people, low income people to the very richest people of this country. it is a $275 billion tax break for the top two percent, millionaires will get about $50,000 a year in tax breaks while at the same time some five to 10 million people are going to lose their health insurance, premiums are going to soar taarp says that if you are 64 years of age and you make about 25,000 a year you are going to pay up to $7,000 more for your health insurance, they are going to defund planned parenthood, deny over 2 million women the right to choose the healthcare they need and designate medicaid which is why the american medical association, the ama and the american hospital association are opposing it, in addition to the aarp. this is a disgrace and by the way they are so cowardly that they want to go

gives an estimate as to how much it will cost and ho how many pee will lose their insurance. >> dickerson: the sbo will be given the accountant, their score on monday, so it will, they will be able to to be a part of the debate. but let me ask you this question about how many people will lose coverage. what speaker ryan says it is an unfair comparison because the people that have coverage now have coverage in a rickety system that is getting worse, premiums are going up, insurance companies are dropping out of the system. so it is unfair to compare the people who have it now, because the system is falling apart. >> oh, really? well, five to 10 million people are going to have more health insurance, no health insurance at all. nobody has suggested the affordable care act, obamacare was perfect, but it did put 20 million people into the ranks of the insured. in my view, and what the american people want is

improvement on obamacare, not the decimation of obamacare and throwing so many people off health insurance and raising premiums substantially. it is very hard for ryan or anybody else not to deny that what never bringing forth is far, far, far worse than obamacare and that its primary purpose is massive tax breaks for the very wealthiest people in this country. >> dickerson: there has been a lot of criticism from some senators about what the house is putting together. i wonder if you see an opportunity to use the opposition against the house bill to do something that is closer to what you want. >> well, sure, that is a very fair question, but as i understand it, this bill is so outrageous that not only do the republicans move forward in the house without the cbo score, they want to move forward in the senate without any hearings whatsoever. if you realize, this bill is

millions of people, and to the best of my knowledge they want to bring it right to the floor of the senate, i am a member of the health education committee, but, when obamacare was being debated we had hearing after hearing, meeting after meeting that never ended. and you guys want to take a bill so significant, to so many people and just shove it through because they don't have the guts to hold hearings. they don't want the american people to know what is going on. >> dickerson: they say, though, there will be a multistep process here. this is one step and then there will be future legislation, so what you might want would be in that future legislation which would also have a 60 vote threshold. this one has only a 50 vote threshold because of the way it is going through. >> well, they can say what they want, john, but it is impossible for any serious legislator to defend a process by which a bill is coming through the senate without one hearing before the vote takes place. and i think it has caught everybod

to move, they are going to move as quickly as they can and they are embarrassed about the product and let's not forget, that president trump who now i guess today at least supports it, we don't know what he will say attorney, but trump was the guy who said to the american people when he ran for president, oh, don't worry we have a terrific idea. we are going to provide healthcare to all people. well, this is far from it. this is throwing five to 10 million people off the health insurance they currently have. >> dickerson: all right, senator standards we, senatorsk sanders thanks for being with us. we will have to leave it there. >> thank you a. >> dickerson: thank you. and we will be back in a moment. >> i'm from all nations. i would look at forms now and wonder what do i mark? because i'm everything. and i marked other. discover the story only your dna can tell. order your kit now at ancestrydna.com.

n on notice, find fast, all-day sweet relief behind the pharmacy counter with claritin-d. [ upbeat music ] strut right on pa st that aisle... ...and tell your stuffed up nose toff stu it, with claritin-d. a non-drowsy allergy medicine combined with the best oral decongestant. it starts working in as little as 30 minutes. so you can get back to living the good life. live claritin clear, with claritin-d. this car is traveling over 200 miles per hour. to win, every millisecond matters. both on the track and thousands of miles away. with the help of at&t, red bull racing can share critical information about every inch of the car from virtually anywhere. brakes are getting warm. confirmed, daniel you need to cool your brakes. understood, brake bias back 2 clicks. giving them the agility to have speed & precision. because no one knows & like at&t.

[bullfighting music] [burke] billy-goat ruffians. seen it. covered it. we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪ so i use excedrin.ments from my life. it starts to relieve migraine pain in just 30 minutes. and it works on my symptoms, too. now moments lost to migraines are moments gained with excedrin. [heartbeat] >> dickerson: you can keep up with the news of the week by subscribing to the "face the nation" diary podcast, find us on i-tunes or your favorite podcast platform. if you can't watch us live, face the nation is now available on cbs all access. that is our website, "face the nationfacethenation.com plus wee available on video on demand on your cable system. we have a lot more ahead. stay with us.

>> uhhh. and i was wondering if your brokerage offers some sort of guarantee? guarantee? where we can get our fees and commissions back if we're not happy. so can you offer me what schwab is offering? what's with all the questions? ask your broker if they're offering $4.95 online equity trades and a satisfaction guarantee. if you don't like their answer, ask again at schwab. don't put off checking out your options until sixty-five.

aarp medicare supplement insurance plan insured by unitedhealthcare insurance company. like any of these types of plans, it could help you with out-of-pocket medical costs. call now and request your free decision guide and explore the range of aarp medicare supplement plans. start gathering the information you need... to roll into sixty-five with confidence. >> dickerson: some of our cbs stations are leaving us now but for most of you we will be right back with more face nation. >> "face the nation". >>

(vo) bbut imagine what's possiblee if we build on what works.. like rewarding care providers for achieving quality outcomes and affordability. giving states flexibility to offer high-quality, affordable care through public and private coverage platforms. and strengthening and growing employer-sponsored coverage. the foundation exists. it can be the bridge to a modern, high-performing, simpler health care system. unitedhealth group. built for better health.

>> dickerson: welcome back to "face the nation". i am john dickerson. among the biggest criticisms of the debate so far on healthcare is that it has happened without an official accounting from the congressional budget of course or cbo. among the big questions that remain unanswered about the republican healthcare bill, how much will it cost and how many people might lose coverage if enacted in its current form? we ask speaker ryan why the house started work on the bill without this information. >> the score we believe will come out probably monday or tuesday. well before we go to the floor. well before we go to the floor we will have the score. the one thing i am certain will happen is cbo will say, well gosh not as many people will get coverage why you know why? because this is not a government mandate, this is not the government say you should buy what we think you should buy and you need to buy it. there is no way you can compete with on paper a

mandate with coverage. what we are trying to achieve here is bringing down the cost of care, bringing down the cost of insurance, not through government mandates and monopoly, but by having more choice and competition and by lowering the cost of healthcare, you improve the access to healthcare and by having the things that we are talking about, tax credits, risk pools, health savings accounts you increase the access to healthcare, we are not going to make an american do what you don't want to do, you get it if you want it, that is freedom. >> dickerson: how many people are going to lose coverage under this? >> i can't answer that. it is up to people. hoo search the premise of your question. are you going to stop mandating people buying health insurance? people are going to do what they want to do with their lives and we believe in individual freedom in this country, so the question is, are we providing a system where people have access to health insurance if they choose to do so? and the answer is yes. but are we going to have some nice looking spreadsheet that says we, the government of the united states are going to make people buy something, therefore ey

no. that is the conceit of obamacare in the first place. so it is not our job to make people do something a that they don't want to do. it is our job to have a system where people can get universal access to affordable coverage if they choose to do so or not. that's what we are going to be accomplishing. >> dickerson: but there have been promises made, president trump ran on this and you have talked about how promises you make in your campaign set the table for things you are going to do. they has promised everyone will be covered. can he -- rogers says, quote no one who has coverage because of obamacare today will lose that coverage. >> that is talking about the transition. i can't talk about what secretary cathy -- we don't want to pull the rug out from under people. this is what i am concerned that some people in america are thinking, the day we pass this bill, the day after, they are going to lose their coverage. that is just not the case. >> dickerson: some are concerned they might lose it in two months. >> they won't in two months either or two months later. the point we are trying to make there will be a smooth transition, a stable transition so that people who are covered

out from under them but let's remember where we are when we started this conversation, the system is collapsing. 160 percent in premiums in arizona alone, five states, one plan, over 1,000 counties, one plan dash. >> because there are lots of people -- >> dickerson: are you saying the premiums -- >> far, far hires higher than they would otherwise go. >> you think they will go up. >> less than -- >> look at the bill, in two years, that's the point, there is a transition, it takes a little while to get the states back in the gauge to regulate health insurance and it takes a little while for risk pools to be set up in the states to cover people with preexisting conditions, it takes a little while for tax credits to be deployed so that the guy waiting tables and getting $12 an hour can get health insurance. it takes some time to do that. and in the meantime, there will be a stable transition so people don't have the rug pulled out from under them. that's what we are talking about when we say a stable transition from the system that is creeing

better and more endurable. >> dickerson: why not in just plain terms, rug pulled out from under them. >> let's say if you are under obamacare and be covered you will still be covered nonprofit insurance companies are pulling out of markets left and right. the government didn't control the decision humana made which is i am pulling out of this market and therefore tennessee and counties of tennessee don't have health insurance. that's not a promise a politician can keep because it is outside of that person. >> dickerson: that's the old promise. there is a new bill with a new promise and the president said seven going to get covered. >> obama area is crashing. >> #02: i get that. >> but you can't say, that is the actual reason -- you do nothing, there is going to be even bigger premium increases next year and even more pullouts -- >> we can't promise -- is going to happen. what we can promise is we are going to replace wit a better system so we have more insurers and more choices and more competition, prices go down and we give people the ability to go access, to access affordable

getting coverage through the individual market now i am nervous. there have been a lot of changes you are talking and saying it is all going to work out wonderfully but it is a theory about how markets will work and the competition. >> it is something you believe in passionately. >> it is not just a system i believe in passionately but has worked well. in healthcare -- >> when you increase choice and you increase competition, you bring more players to the marketplace who compete against each other for our business. well we never had in the individual market is equal tax treatment so that a person who doesn't get healthcare from their job but is out there working gets a tax benefit to go buy health insurance. that is what health savings accounts and tax credits are. risk pools work very, very well we had them in wisconsin, it was i think the best way of the getting the em with preexisting conditions affordable coverage, obamacare destroyed that system. obamacare federal lied the entire system and blew up the american healthcare system, so it is going to take us more than a few months to

and replace wit a better system. >> dickerson: let me ask you a question about that. the tax credits in the bill you have gotten a lot of criticism from conservatives who the freedom works called this an individual mandate by another name and the individual mandate, that part of obamacare they don't like. the republican study group said that this credit is, in principle, obamacare. so why are they wrong? >> i think they are wrong because this has been longstanding conservative reform for decades -- >> dickerson: individual mandate -- -- >> tax credits, so look, here is what we always said as conservatives, which is we should equalize the tax treatment of healthcare, everybody who gets healthcare for the job gets -- so the only way to make sure that working poor person, that working low and middle income person can actually get something off of their a taxes is through a tax

credit. we think equalizing the tax treatment of healthcare, giving people more freedom in the individual market is the best way to replace obamacare with a patient centered system so it has been longstanding conservative reforms that we do this. and it is frustrating some conservatives are now changing their tune and mischaracterizing these things? of course it is. but that is how the legislative process works. >> dickerson: in medicaid you have got conservatives saying that you are phased out of the expansion, it is happening too slowly, with en20 the target date is too slow and republicans in the senate saying it is happening too past, the poor and mentally ill will be hurt. >> so we are probably right in the sweet spot. i think what happened -- >> is it going to stick in? it going to move. >> this is a carefully balanced consensus among all of the republicans in consultation with the governors of how to somewhere a smooth transition as we get medicaid back to the states. the concern about ending the, ending the medicaid and changing medicaid too soon there will be a gap in coverage before the tax credits kick in and so that is a concern about doing this too soon. here is what i would say -- this

are losing the forest for the trees. we are sending medicaid on a per capita da to the state and capping its growth rate. this is the most historic giement re, entitlement reform we ever had. this? bigger than -- reform in 1996. so if the transition takes three years or two years, that is missing the forest through the trees. so that is the point i keep trying to make which, is look at the totality of this and look at the historic a achievement this is and i think this at the end of the day is going to win this argument among people on my side of the aisle. >> dickerson: all right, mr. speaker, thanks so much with being with us. >> you bet, thank you, john. >> dickerson: we will be right back with our political panel. don't go away. >>

the following ad for your viewing convenience. so i just switched to geico. what took you so long? i know, i saved a ton of money on car insurance. that's what i'm talking about! geico also gives you 24/7 access to licensed agents! booooyah. good game, you really crushed it. no son, geico crushed it. ♪ ♪

lakshmanan,. >> dickerson: and we are back with our political panel. avik roy is the president of the foundation for research on equal opportunity. and political advisor for mitt romney and marco rubio. and we welcome indira lakshmanan of the boston globe, indira has also been named the new chair of journalism ethics at the pointer institution and chief white house correspondent for "the new york times" peter baker is with us, peter baker i will start with you. give us your assessment of where things stand after the first week of the rollout of the alternative to the affordable care act. >> well, earlier in your program you got the left and right, very different critiques of this plan and a president who isn't qte

sure which way forward. he is said contracting, in fact, the policy to paul ryan, which as you demonstrated, very smart -- master of the subject, but i think the question is, what investment is he going to tut into the path of this bill. he doesn't really care, think about some of the specific details, what he wants is a winner, he says you have to have a win and a something he can wall call repeal and replace. whether this is, whether it is or not is unclear. policy -- -- and so we are waiting to hear from the president. and. >> dickerson: what do you make of the legislation put forward by paul ryan? is it the best he can get? >> well, i think he tried to split the difference between the people, pragmatic republicans who want to make sure that the replacement is competitive with the aca on covering the uninsured and the people like rand paul who say that anything that attempts to provid

financial assistance to the uninsured, is obamacare light and i thought your interview with him today was really interesting because rand paul in 2012 introduced a bill to provide private coverage to seniors as an alternative to medicare, it would be heavily subsidized with richer benefits than medicare and protect people against preexisting conditions, require insurers to charge the same prices to the healthy and the system sick and cap out-of-pocket costs and lips. all things theoretically that are unique for obamacare, will se for obamacare light when it comes to seniors not when it comes to the uninsured, and i think this is operationally the challenge republicans have. they say they are a normative, they are against subsidies, the federal government's involvement, and what they are operationally against is assistance for the uninsured and the low-income populations, for republican voters, the older, the employed, they are totally in favor of, and comfortable with subsidizing coverage. >> dickerson: how, ezra how do you see the winners and lose in other words this bill? >> in is a bad bil

reception and i am sorry i can't be more positive than that. it is, you have a $6 billion tax cut and loring in subsidies for people and betraying promise after promise made by donald trump and mitch mcconnell, he promised no cuts to medicaid this is a sharp, sharp cut to medicaid, mitch mcconnell, right here on this program said the problem with obamacare is the deductibles are too high, the cophase are too high, people are buying insurance and can't afford to use it. the way this bill works is you push people into insurance when they could afford it that have higher deductibles and higher copays. they seem to have defined the problem extremely narrowly. pass something, anything we can call appeal and replace of obamacare but when they actually try to put this into law, which in the bill, it is shoddy in construction and not waiting long enough to even figure out how to amen amend it ifou try to put it in law it will create skyrocketing premiums, a lot less

saying you don't have enough competition, and about 10 million people, depending on which estimate you look at, will lose insurance. i don't know who they think is going to be happy with that. >> adverse selection meaning healthy stay out and to the sick stay in and it is going to be too expensive? >> one big constraint that republicans have is because they are insisting on doing this in a party line approach, using the senate reconciliation process. >> dickerson: where you only need a majority instead of 60 votes? >> right. the problem there is you can address the reconciliation process but not doing anything about regulation and so much of the affordable care act is regulation, all the complaints that paul ryan made in your sphwhiewf about rising premiums, those are driven by regulations and if you can't reform those regulations through this bill you are not actually solving the problems you think that obamacare -- >> dickerson: and that's why you say it is a multistage approach but the fact is everybody is focused on the first stage and not the second and third. indira what do you make, if president trump were watching this discussion, it would sound like a lot of noise probably to

>> >> dickerson: he is a -- >> that's what i was going to say, john. i think we will need to look at this also from a political point of view, it is great to hear all of the details of the plan, but president trump sold himself on the campaign trail as a deal maker in chief. he said to the american people, i am going to be able to get you a better deal. i am going to be able to fix health care because i am going to be able to negotiate better drug prices. i am going to be able to a negotiate better with the healthcare company. i am going to be able to do everything better thch is his first big test. he is coming to washington. i don't think he cares so much about the details. that's what we talked about. the he subcontracted this out to speaker ryan and said you do it, that's okay. we know we have to repeal and replace all in one step so just do it. that's fine. now he is going to have to go out to kentucky, he is going to have to go out to tennessee, se going to do the salesmanship. he has people coming, he has members of congress coming to his bowling alley in the white house and by all accounts he is making friends, influencing people, even senator lindsey graham who is no big fan of donald trump, i

yesterday coming out of the white house, well i had a pretty good time, boy she a charming guy and at the same time, donald trump is putting pressure on the republicans saying it is going to be a bloodbath in 2018 if you don't pass this. >> dickerson: and paul ryan is also saying with everything else, can only come tax reform, all the things they want to pass can only happen if this happens. peter s is the big hurdle for donald trump, the fact he said everyone is going to be covered and we have estimates of 10 million, maybe 15 million, the cbo official accounting may be quite bad. is that a big thing that had that the president will have the biggest problem reconciling. >> as you pointed out in the interview, they found so many things that seem untenable if you put them together into a plan, unless you are spending lots of money and doing things in a different way than paul ryan wants to do them, and ultimately you can't rule out some of those certain expectations he created and with the voters, the striking thing is some of the people who are probably most affected by some of the changes we are talking about

rural white, working class americans who love donald trump, who voted for him, who put him into office, and he owes them and he wants to keep them on his side. so it is going to be tricky. >> dickerson: we will return with this geometry and take a break here quickly and then we will come back and continue this conversation. stick with us. >> bp engineered a fleet of 32 brand new ships with advanced technology, so we can make sure oil and gas get where they need to go safely. because safety is never being satisfied. and always working to be better.

♪ what? there are bumps along the road of life... and for each one there's triple-a. it's just three kids, right? >> dickerson: and we are back with more of our panel. easy remarks i am going to ask you a question about something bernie sanders said about the tax cuts for windfall he says is going to the top one percent. remind people why we are talking about tax cuts and why this is a part of healthcare. >> well, you have to fund the aca coverage expansion so in the back of the envelope basis over a ten year period, if he spends $2 trillion trying to cover the uninsured and fund that through about 1.2 trillion in tax increases and about $850 billion in medicare cuts, and what the house republican bill does it actually preserves the medicare cuts in the aca because you can't touch medicare through

nearly all of the tax hikes, and then have their own coverage ex-paption in the new structure you talked about with paul ryan. >> it is one of the,. >> is one of the challenges here there has been habit of a success for the affordable care act, obamacare which is that it created expectations that you are going to cover preexisting conditions and coverage requires requirements and then also dash and if you keep those, those which this does it makes it more expensive. >> it makes it expensive but also means you are working in the main broad frame of obamacare if you are doing that you have to maintain important parts of that framework. they are splitting the difference between so many different arguments they have stopped being able to make sense of any of them in particular. so you are trying to take out the individual mandate, replace it with something that is not quite an individual mandate. this 30 percent surcharge on healthcare when you come back to the market. and all of a sudden it doesn't work quite as well but it makes people angry and not sure what goal they are trying to achieve.

reconciliation, which is brought up is a really important one. i was stunned, actually to hear paul ryan on the program earlier today say that the -- was jammed down the country's throat with this. this is a regular -- slow process. we didn't see this bill until last monday. this is the first time we have seen it and i saw the stuff ryan produced before. this is all different. this is the first time virtual seen this legislation with this i don't know sell population of ideas there is no independent analysis of it and it passed two committees on how it worked and a what it would do. and without going through this process of information and amendments and go back and forth and decide if it is going to work, there has not been time for republicans or really for anybody to access the fundamental questions and decide, do we need to change a this bill in a pretty fundamental ways. >> the speed they are trying to do there is a speed of fear, the speed that is going to make bad policies. >> dickerson: that's when i asked him about you can say you ran on this but you didn't run on the particulars that are being debated. one things that strikes

white house doesn't really have a bunch of old legislative hands. usually the white house who had people who worked on the hill on how to figure in stuff out, so this is kind of an operational challenge for them over there. >> that's right. and as a comparison, you know, the republicans of course were saying that the obama administration shoved healthcare down the throats of the american people, but, in fact, it was 15 months that there was open debate over the affordable care act. >> they want to do it in one month and 15 months is a huge difference, where everybody was looking at it, debating it, talking about it, so that is a very important difference. and you make a point, it is operationally different. if you don't have the expert on, you know, the liaisons with the legislature, then you don't really know how to do it, but we see than in so many ways, it is kind of akin to putting in charge of cabinets, you know, putting cabinet secretaries in charge a of agencies that those people want to abolish those agencies so it is kind of a similar thing, that, you know, it is the sort of disruptive

>> what is going to be interesting is when that congressional budget office score comes out for this bill, and it says something like the bill will cover 20 million fewer people than the affordable care act, does donald trump, does the president who has promised insurance for everybody say the cbo is fake news? does he say republicans go back to work and fix this? because there are -- the cbo really, really believes in the individual mandate much more so than the insurers do, so maybe part of the cbo report that are uncharitable and perhaps you can dispute but there are aspects of the bill that are going to result in fewer people having health insurance and it is going to be interesting to see how the president himself reacts to that. >> dickerson: they have already started lowering the view of cbo in the white house briefing, trying to maybe, anticipating a bad ruling. >> let me ask you a question, peter about another piece of news which is the travel ban the president changed this week. there wasn't as much coverage as the first one. how did it change? >> well, there is an important difference -- in this war

made clear and explicit that green card holders and people that have visas already are not included, and took out a preference meant for christians, minorities in some of these countries so those are important in, and minimizes some of the disruption we saw the first time, you didn't have people on airplanes literally blocked at the border when they got here. beyond that, it is still pretty similar. it is still stopping all refugees and all of the muslim majority countries. now, you are now back in court and have lawsuits already and i think the issue is going to be, the courts will look as this as a dressed up version of the same thing or there are substantive changes, that are constitutional. >> they did reverse engineer this second travel ban in a way. it is clear from looking at it, i spoke to many legal scholars about this, that the trump administration kind of looked at the bill, looked at what the complaints were from the

from the ninth circuit court of appeals and sort of created the new travel ban kind of backwards from that. so a lot of legal scholars think this will, you know, stand up in court, although there are a lot of problems that predate anything that is written down which is that donald trump himself said on the campaign trail back in december 2015 i want a muslim ban, keep them all out so there are so many things he said in the public record that courts can look at, they can say hey this is really a muslim ban dressed up as something else, so that sort of irrespective on the what is on the piece of paper. >> dickerson: ezra can i get a last thought on you from the job numbers on friday. the president took credit for the strong february. put that in context. it has to be a relatively brief context. >> i don't think he got credit for it because we are in the context of a long running market expansion. they are good job numbers, he has not done anything yet to interrupt them and presidents can do a lot of things to mess up a good economy so right now we should be thankfue

and we should be careful to try to preserve it. >> dickerson: all right, thanks all of you for being here. thanks for watching and we will be back in a moment. >> when you wanna put allergies with nasal congestion on notice, find fast, all-day sweet relief behind the pharmacy counter with claritin-d. [ upbeat music ] strut right on past that ai..sle. ...and tell your stuffed up nose tuto sff it, with claritin-d. a non-drowsy allergy medicine combined with the best oral decongestant. it starts working in as little as 30 minutes.

get back to living the good life. live claritin clear, with claritin-d.

>> dickerson: that's it for us today. i will see you tomorrow when we welcome back our friend and colleague charlie rose on cbs this morning. until next week, from "face the nation", i am john dickerson. captioning sponsored by cbs captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

for the bye bye foundation beautiful you collection is a paid presentation from it cosmetics by jamie kern lima. brought to you by guthy renker. imagine having skin that looks this beautiful, this flawless, without having to wear foundation. imagine a product that covers everything but looks and feels like you're wearing nothing. imagine one product that is clinically shown to make your skin younger-looking in just ten days and can make you look up to five years younger instantly. this life changing product is bye bye foundation, the first ever full coverage moisturizer from it cosmetics. it's proven skincare and full coverage, plus broad spectrum spf 50+ sunscreen all in one simple step. so say, "bye-bye, foundation," and, "hello, beautiful, flawless looking skin." it's your skin, but better. it gives e youthverying. it gives you the skincare, it gives you the coverage, it gives you your most beautiful face.