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captioning funded by cbs and ford. we go further, so you can.

known as a supermax, some prisoners are cut off from nearly all human contact, but what has been accepted prison practice is starting to change across america. >> >> jackson: your mind becomes diseased, and you start to accept the abnormal as normal. >> winfrey: you must know that there are a lot of people who do not care that you're in isolation five years, ten years, 24 years, because you've got it coming. >> alfonsi: bill koch is a billionaire black sheep. after suing his famously conservative brothers, he went on a multi-million dollar spending spree collecting museum-quality art, and a cellar full of the finest wine in the world. >> koch: this is a bottle of chateau lafite rothschild 1870. >> alfonsi: at least that's what the label says. >> koch: we had a materials expert analyze this and say the glue behind this is elmer's glue. >> alfonsi: how much money did you spend tracking dn

you those bottles? >> koch: i spent over $35 million doing all that. >> alfonsi: $35 million? >> koch: yes, more. >> i'm steve kroft. >> i'm lesley stahl. >> i'm bill whitaker. >> i'm sharyn alfonsi >> i'm oprah winfrey. >> i'm scott pelley. those stories tonight, on "60 minutes." it's easy to think that all money managers are pretty much the same. but while some push high commission investment products, fisher investments avoids them. some advisers have hidden and layered fees. fisher investments never does. and while some advisers are happy to earn commissions from you whether you do well or not, fisher investments fees are structured so we do better when you do better. maybe that's why most of our clients come from other money managers. fisher investments. clearly better money management. with some big news about type 2 diabetes.

yes. so let me ask you this... how does diabetes affect your heart? it doesn't, does it? actually, it does. type 2 diabetes can make you twice as likely to die from a cardiovascular event, like a heart attack or stroke. and with heart disease, your risk is even higher. you didn't know that. no. yeah. but, wait, there's good news for adults who have type 2 diabetes and heart disease. jardiance is the only type 2 diabetes pill with a lifesaving cardiovascular benefit. jardiance is proven to both significantly reduce the chance of dying from a cardiovascular event in adults who have type 2 diabetes and heart disease and lower your a1c. jardiance can cause serious side effects including dehydration. this may cause you to feel dizzy, faint, or lightheaded, or weak upon standing. ketoacidosis is a serious side effect that may be fatal. symptoms include nausea, vomiting, stomach pain, tiredness, and trouble breathing. stop taking jardiance and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of ketoacidosis or an allergic reaction. symptoms of an allergic reaction include rash, swelling, and difficulty breathing or swallowing.

on dialysis or have severe kidney problems. other side effects are sudden kidney problems, genital yeast infections, increased bad cholesterol, and urinary tract infections, which may be serious. taking jardiance with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. tell your doctor about all the medicines you take and if you have any medical conditions. so now that you know all that, what do you think? that it's time to think about jardiance. ask your doctor about jardiance. and get to the heart of what matters. ♪ hungry eyes ♪ one look at you and i can't disguise ♪ ♪ i've got hungry eyes ♪ applebee's 2 for $20. now that's eatin' good in the neighborhood. applebee's 2 for $20. connecting with some sketchy guy from a blocked number who just called saying he's with a tech company that needs remote access to my computer to block a virus he detected?! really? hey we hear you. that's why aarp created the fraud watch network. to help you protect your family

if you don't think "this is right for me" when you think aarp, then you don't know "aarp". get to know us at aarp.org/possibilities. whstuff happens. old shut down cold symptoms fast with maximum strength alka seltzer plus liquid gels. >> pelley: tonight, an unprecedented interview with an undercover f.b.i. operative who secretly lives and works among the terrorists of is a

al-qaeda. his name is a national secret, but, in 2012, al-qaeda knew him as tamer elnoury. they thought he was a wealthy arab-american with seething anger at the united states, but, in reality, he had dedicated himself to the war on terror the morning of 9/11. >> tamer elnoury: i remember thinking, "please, god, don't let this be a terrorist attack. please, god." and that's how naive i was. that's how naive we all were at that time. >> pelley: tamer elnoury-- one of his many aliases-- immigrated from egypt as a child and was raised in new jersey in a traditional islamic home. >> elnoury: we're not at war with islam. we're at war with radicals. i am a muslim, i am an american, and i've been serving my country for 22 years and counting. and i am appalled at what these animals are doing to my country whde

>> pelley: devoted to islam and america, comfortable working alone amid killers, he was a rare find for the f.b.i.'s undercover counter-terrorism group. >> elnoury: it's called the national security covert operations unit. >> pelley: and what do the guys in the unit call it? >> elnoury: it's not the guys, it's me. i jokingly referred to it as the "dirty arabs group." >> pelley: the dirty arabs group? >> elnoury: yes. >> pelley: your bosses must have loved that. dark humor is part of the trade. in a new book, "american radical," he writes about infiltrating terrorist groups at home and abroad. he wrote the book, he told us, so fellow americans could understand how the islam he knows is tortured by terrorists trying to justify mayhem. we disguised him and changed his voice so he could tell us about one of the biggest investigations of his career. the target was a 30-year-old tunisian who was working toward a ph.d. at a canadian

it was in 2012 that routine surveillance of chiheb esseghair's phone calls and travels gave canadian intelligence and the f.b.i. reasons to worry. >> elnoury: chiheb was talking to some really bad folks overseas. he made two trips to iran, and a handful of other intelligence- gathering evidence that was presented to us that led us to believe that we needed to figure out who he was. >> pelley: esseghair had a visa to attend an academic conference in the united states, so the f.b.i. wanted tamer elnoury to dangle himself as bait just in case esseghaier was recruiting for al-qaeda. what did you do then? >> elnoury: i crafted my legend, and made myself recruitable. i wanted him to choose me.

night wondering what he could do to become my friend. >> pelley: his legend, or false biography, was that of a wealthy arab-american real estate investor with a painful, private grudge. how did you meet? >> elnoury: we met on a flight from houston to san jose, california. >> pelley: not by accident? >> elnoury: we met on a flight from houston to san jose, california. >> pelley: that planned "accidental" meeting in june 2012 is called a "bump," as in, bumping into someone. they boarded as strangers, and fate did the rest. >> elnoury: people were in his seat, people were in my seat. it was a legitimate mix-up. and as i was talking to the flight attendant, he noticed that i had a long beard, that i looked middle eastern and probably was a muslim. so, he poked his head over, and he said, "batakalem arai,

which means, "do you speak arabic," in arabic. i said, "taba'an, assalmu alaikum wa rahmat'allahi wa barakatu." and he looked at me. and he said, "wa-alaikum assalaam wa-rahmat'allah," "i knew it." and then, the conversation proceeded in arabic. he then turned to the other flight attendant and said, "we must sit together." he insisted. he chose me.

and i drive to the beach, and i sit at the beach and i talk to myself out loud like a crazy person, reciting everything there is to know about tamer elnoury-- his company, his family, his legend, over and over. >> pelley: the f.b.i. created a history for tamer elnoury; an online presence, an actual office for his investment company where a receptionist answered the phone. there were ownership records, a home, fake i.d.s. and, critical to the legend, there was a false personal tragedy. elnoury's fake background said that his mother died of neglect in a u.s. hospital because of anti-muslim discrimination. that lie completed the picture of a wealthy arab-american who had a reason to hate. chiheb esseghair thought that his new friend was "made to order," which, of course, he was.

esseghair twisted the koran to justify attacking the west. he admitted that his trips to iran were for meetings with a senior al-qaeda leader. surveillance showed that esseghair was checking tamer elnoury's back story. and one night, in a basement in toronto, elnoury was grilled by esseghair and three accomplices. >> elnoury: "what do you do? how do you do it? is it commercial real estate? is it residential? what do you do when you fly here? what do you do here?" it sounded like an interrogation. >> pelley: this interrogation was so sharp, elnoury feared that his cover had been blown. he analyzed the room, in case he had to escape. but the cop within you had figured out where the exit was and had decided what order he was going to shoot the people in the room in, if it came to that? >> elnoury: oh, absolutely. at that point, as you get older and slower, you realize you always go for the young ones first.

ask, in all seriousness, where does the courage come from? >> elnoury: i can make the argument that you're probably more in danger crossing the street here in new york city than i am when i'm embedded in an al-qaeda cell. if my legend holds up, i am worth so much more to them, safe. they protect me more than they protect their own, because tamer elnoury means access to the west. >> pelley: he passed the grilling and was enlisted in what al-qaeda hoped would be its long frustrated encore to 9/11. >> elnoury: he was planning on derailing a train from new york city to toronto. >> pelley: how was he going to do that? >> elnoury: well, that changed multiple times. it was either break up the tracks, use explosives. the bottom line was that train was getting derailed over a bridge that had as little water

of everyone on that train. >> pelley: was this just some kind of pipe dream? >> elnoury: no, that was his tasking from al-qaeda. >> pelley: the via-rail train carries hundreds of passengers from new york to toronto. in september 2012, esseghaier, elnoury and another man cased this bridge near toronto, the scene of the planned attack. as a surveillance team watched overhead, elnoury recorded chiheb esseghair explaining how the disaster would unfold. it would seem that you have plenty to arrest chiheb on at this point. why does the investigation keep going? >> elnoury: because chiheb revealed to me that there was an american sleeper. he told me that there was an american version of him and that although he didn't know who he was, he was told by his trainers, al-qaeda senior leadership, that they would put the two of them togethhe

the time was right. >> pelley: there was an al-qaeda american agent inside the united states? >> elnoury: that's what chiheb believed, and i believed him. >> pelley: the possibility of an al-qaeda agent in america took the investigation in a new direction. tamer elnoury lured esseghaier to new york city in the hope of developing leads. esseghaier asked elnoury to show him the sights, including times square. >> elnoury: he didn't see times square the way a foreigner would. he saw it as an opportunity to kill americans. >> pelley: an opportunity, esseghaier suggested, for a future new years eve when more than 100,000 people would fill the streets. >> elnoury: multiple explosions that were timed about five to ten seconds apart. as one went off, he thought about where the crowd would then run to.

next bomb to go off. maximum carnage, maximum casualties. >> pelley: he expected to get away with derailing the train, so that he could go on to times square next? >> elnoury: exactly. chiheb said that al-qaeda shifted gears. after 9/11, they lost some of their best minds. no more martyrdom. they didn't want to lose soldiers anymore, people with access to the west. so, you do what you can and get out, hide, and do it again. >> pelley: after his visit to times square, esseghaier wanted to see where the twin towers had fallen. >> elnoury: and as he was rubbing his beard, and his arm was around me. he said, "tamer, this place needs another 9/11, and we're going to give it to them." i saw red at that moment. it was the hardest time in my career to stay professional. here i am on hallowed

and he said that to me. at that very moment, i could feel a pen in the pocket of my jacket. i envisioned stabbing him in the eye and dropping him dead right where he stood. >> pelley: you very nearly blew your cover? >> elnoury: yes. well, it's... it's part of what we do, though. we pretend to be someone we loathe, while hanging out with people we hate. maybe it was the culmination of everything that was happening, the stress and pressure of identifying the sleeper. chiheb's rants about the west, whatever. but the point was, i almost broke that night. but thankfully for the case, i didn't. >> pelley: the f.b.i. wanted more time, but, in april 2013, the boston marathon was attacked. and one week later, the canadian government insisted on wrapping

chiheb esseghaier and the accomplice on the bridge were tried, convicted and sentenced to life, but the trail to the american sleeper, if he existed, went cold. >> elnoury: there hasn't been a day since april 22, 2013, when i've woken up-- no matter where i am-- that i don't think about the american sleeper. >> pelley: tamer elnoury's book, "american radical," was cleared for publication after an f.b.i. review. the bureau is keeping him out of action for a while, to make sure that his identity isn't uncovered after the book and our interview. ♪ psoriatic arthritis tries to get in my way? watch me. ♪ i've tried lots of things for my joint pain.

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>> winfrey: california's pelican bay prison is the most notorious state penitentiary in america. designed and built as a "supermax" facility, it's been used for nearly 30 years to lock away inmates considered the most dangerous. pelican bay's security housing unit, known as "the shu," is solitary confinement by another name, and inmates and their advocates have long denounced it as state-sanctioned torture. the people who run california's prisons defended their approach for decades, but now they are at the center of a reform movement that is dramatically reducing the use of solitary confinement across the country, and at pelican bay. hi, there. >> aron franklin: hi, nice to meet you. >> winfrey: nice to meet you. i'm oprah. >> franklin: hi, i'm aron. i-- i know who you are. >> winfrey: oh, hi, aron. on the other side of that steel mesh, inmate aroan

life sentence. what did you get 50 years to life for? >> franklin: for a murder. >> winfrey: murder. >> franklin: yeah. >> winfrey: it was the murder of a fellow gang member in san diego. but crimes you commit on the outside don't get you sent to the pelican bay shu. it is reserved for offenses committed once you're in prison. why were you brought here? can you tell me? >> franklin: just a little misunderstanding on the yard. >> winfrey: that "little misunderstanding" was an attack on another inmate with a weapon, and it earned him a year in solitary confinement. franklin is in what's known as a shu "pod;" eight tiny cells, four up and four down, all facing the same blank wall across the way. >> danny murillo: it was created to break me, mentally, physically and spiritually. >> winfrey: danny murillo, troy williams and steve czifra all went to prison as teenagers. they were sent to the pelican bay shu for what happened after they were behind bars.

steve spit on a prison guard; troy was part of a riot at another facility, and danny was accused of being in a prison gang. do you remember the first day you pulled up to the shu, taking that long bus ride, getting off the bus and seeing the place? >> murillo: it's a big white building with a small little door. my imagination was-- a human slaughterhouse. people just going into a human slaughterhouse. >> winfrey: what did you think, steve? >> steve czifra: it was a modern day dungeon. there was-- i had never seen anything like it. >> winfrey: this is-- the message is, "you're not getting out of here"? >> czifra: the message is, you-- you're screwed. >> winfrey: all three ultimately did get out of the shu, and out of prison. i think the feeling on the part of a lot of folks is that you committed a crime, regardless of what age you were. you got locked up. you deserve to be there. can you tell me why we should care? >> troy williams: we are, most of us, going to be getting out.

to s-- begin to facilitate a healing, you know? and the healing can start with, you know-- a basic-- dignity in how we're treated. >> winfrey: here inside the pelican bay shu, an inmate would spend up to 22.5 hours a day in this cell, which is basically the size of a small parking space. it's like a windowless box with a sink and a toilet. not just for days at a time-- sometimes years, and even decades at a time, in this room, alone. most days, the only time a prisoner leaves his cell is to go to the yard, a slightly less tiny concrete box at the end of the pod, for 90 minutes of exercise. so, this is it. this is the yard.

this-- >> scott kernan: yes. this is it. >> winfrey: yeah. okay. well, i wouldn't exactly call it a yard. we visited the yard with scott kernan, who runs the california department of corrections and rehabilitation. so, it would just be the inmate alone out here. >> kernan: correct. >> winfrey: on the rare occasions that an inmate leaves his pod, he first has to strip, push his clothes through a slot to be searched, then put his hands through the same slot to be cuffed. this is the only time a shu prisoner is ever touched by another human being. >> mike wallace: they do hard time here in the shu. time here is like hard time in no other prison. >> winfrey: when mike wallace visited pelican bay for "60 minutes" in 1993, prisons across the country had embraced solitary confinement as a tool to combat violence inside their walls; there was a building boom in supermax facilities, and

>> wallace: the state of california that runs it proudly proclaims it's the wave of the future, designed to isolate prisoners who, they insist, are out of control, too violent, too unpredictable, to be housed with the run-of-the-mill murderers and rapists. >> winfrey: at its peak in the '90s, corrections secretary scott kernan says pelican bay's shu held almost 2,000 prisoners. >> kernan: during that period of time, i witnessed multiple murders, multiple stabbings, lives changed irreparably-- >> winfrey: inmates stabbing each other? stabbing corrections officers, stabbing-- >> kernan: all of it. >> winfrey: almost all of that violence, kernan says, was and still is caused by powerful race-based prison gangs. so the gangs rule in prison? >> kernan: they do. the gangs rule. >> winfrey: in an effort to break that rule, california identified gang leaders and enforcers and sent them to pelican bay. so the idea was to bring them here and have them in isolation?

isolation and deter their communication. and it worked. >> winfrey: so if any-- any-- inmate was validated as a gang member, he could be held here indefinitely for years, or decades? >> kernan: yes. >> clyde jackson: 24 years, five months and six days i was there. >> winfrey: clyde jackson was sent to prison at age 17 for kidnapping, rape, robbery, and attempted murder. but it was gang ties that got him sent to pelican bay. >> jackson: well, i was sent to pelican bay shu because i was labeled as a validated gang member of the black guerilla family. the design was complete isolation. >> craig haney: one of the first things they'd say to me was, "i am struggling to maintain my sanity and i don't know how to do it." >> winfrey: craig haney is a psychology professor at u.c. santa cruz, whose studies of pelican bay shu inmates have become central to arguments against the widespread use of solitary confinement.

so what was the most striking result of your findings in 1992 after that first study? >> haney: that vast numbers of prisoners were traumatized by the experience. they were suffering, they were living in pain, and many of them were being psychologically damaged by the conditions of their confinement. and-- and at-- at much higher levels than even i anticipated. >> jackson: your mind becomes diseased, and you start to accept the abnormal as normal. >> winfrey: you must know that there are a lot of people who do not care that you're in isolation five years, ten years, 24 years. what does it matter that conditions are bad, because you've got it coming? >> jackson: well, there's prison and then there's prison, right? the judge sentenced me to prison. he didn't sent me-- he didn't sentence me to an underground prison. >> winfrey: but wasn't the logic, that it was a serious and valid response to a very real

from gang members? >> haney: there was no reason to believe that that place was going to effectively address the gang problem that was growing in california. and witness the fact that it hasn't. pelican bay and places like it in california have been in operation now for many, many years. decades. we have the worst prison-gang problem in the united states. so, it clearly was not a solution. >> winfrey: you might expect corrections secretary scott kernan to flatly reject that assertion. he doesn't. >> kernan: that was a policy that was intended to save lives and make prisons safer across the system. it was a mistake-- in retrospect, as we look back-- >> winfrey: but you said earlier it worked? >> kernan: it did work. >> winfrey: it worked in-- in reducing crime in the general prison population? >> kernan: yes. >> winfrey: why did it not work? >> kernan: it didn't work because of the impact on the offenders. >> winfrey: i'm sure you've heard that statement from justice anthony kennedy, who says, "solitary confinement

does it? >> kernan: i think it does. >> winfrey: remember, that's not some human rights campaigner saying that. he runs the prison system! does that make you feel any better, that there's an acknowledgement from the state that it was a mistake? >> murillo: it doesn't make me happy. i still been tortured. >> williams: makes you feel like you've been experimented on, really. >> haney: there was plenty of evidence early on that this was a failed experiment. that it was hurting people. >> winfrey: pressure for change really began to build in 2011, when shu inmates organized a series of hunger strikes to draw attention to their plight. they also filed a class-action lawsuit challenging the use of solitary confinement. fearing it might lose that suit, the state negotiated a settlement with "prisoner- plaintiffs" in 2015. california agreed to stop holding inmates in solitary for indefinite terms, and to stop sending them to the shu simply

for having gang ties. now that the settlement has happened and the reforms have taken place, what is the difference in the shu now, versus then? >> kernan: the shu facility that we are doing this interview in is empty. we emptied the shus out. >> winfrey: california's shus now hold 80% fewer inmates than just a few years ago. only people like aron franklin, whom we met earlier, are still sent to the shu, for specific infractions and limited terms. >> kernan: i think across the nation, people are looking at how we house restricted offenders and are making changes to that policy. >> winfrey: so if pelican bay was once a model for the widespread use of solitary confinement, it's now so empty that scott kernan is converting shu pods to minimum security units. so now we can take these off-- >> kernan: yes. >> winfrey: --right? because we're going to a minimum security unit. >> kernan: yes. >> winfrey: so-- where there's

oh, this is very different. wow. all the cell doors are open in the converted pods, and prisoners can move around freely. did you ever think that would happen? >> jackson: no. no. i thought, you know, i was under the mindset pelican bay would be there for an eternity. >> winfrey: after his own eternity in the pelican bay shu, 24 years, clyde jackson is now in the general population at solano state prison, near sacramento. what was it like the first time you were taken out of the shu and able to experience the environment? >> jackson: well, ms. winfrey, to be honest with you, i was dizzy. it-- it-- it's like being born again. >> winfrey: at solano, jackson has immersed himself in the rehabilitation programs that are now the focus of california's prison system. the state has gone from "lock them up" to "fix them up."

i'm finally in a position to get my g.e.d. >> winfrey: and so you're taking advantage of everything you can? >> jackson: everything that i can that i missed in the past. >> winfrey: so tell me, do you have hope now? >> jackson: yes. >> winfrey: there are many who would say, "why does an inmate deserve hope?" because they are here because of a crime that they committed, and-- inevitably took some form of hope away from somebody. >> kernan: over 90% of these inmates will complete their sentence and they'll come back out into the communities. do you want somebody with no hope, that's involved themselves in criminal activities, doing dope, stabbing people, or would you want a guy that comes out that has an a.a. degree? has addressed a substance abuse program? has-- went to domestic violence classes? what would you want, as a taxpayer and a citizen of this state? >> winfrey: how has your own personal perception of what it means to be an inmate, a is

>> kernan: when i first came in, that person was the enemy. now, 35 years later-- i don't view the inmates as my enemy. they're people. they're all coming out to be our neighbors. why wouldn't we spend the resources and create an environment where th-- when they come out, they're better people than when they got here? i-- i just think it makes all the sense in the world. it's common sense. >> winfrey: clyde jackson may become part of that 90% of inmates to eventually be released. he has a date with the parole board in 2022. he will be 59 years old, and will have been behind bars for more than 40 years. >> winfrey: i don't have a bleeding heart about it. >> then why did oprah suggest this story? go to 60minutesovertime.com.

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>> alfonsi: as long as there have been collectors, there have been people trying to cheat them. the world of fine wine is no different. forgers have made millions of dollars fooling collectors thirsty for rare and interesting "trophy" wines. with lots of money, big egos and often no intention of ever drinking the wine, they're an easy target. at first, no one seemed to be an easier mark than bill koch, an avid wine collector with deep pockets. he is the sibling of the famous koch brothers, charles and david, who are known for their philanthropy and support of conservative causes. but as it turns out, bill koch was the wrong guy to mess with. driven by an obsessive aversion to being cheated and fueled by a

koch brother" has become the country's leading crusader against counterfeit wine. who are you in this family? where are your interests? what makes you different than the other brothers or like them? >> bill koch: i could-- how much time do you have? ( laughs ) >> alfonsi: sixty minutes. ( laughter ) >> koch: well, i've chartered my own way in life. my brother charles likes to collect money. my brother david used to like to collect girls, until he got married. and people say, "well, what do you collect?" i collect everything i can. ( laughs ) >> alfonsi: and that's a whole lot. koch owns millions of dollars of prime real estate, including this 45,000 square foot mansion in palm beach, florida. the house, like the botero sculptures on the lawn, is busting at the seams. hundreds of millions of dollars of masterpieces elbowing for wall space. degas, monet, cezanne.

>> koch: my twin brother says that my home here is a museum disguised as a house. >> alfonsi: koch is a billionaire whose money comes from his family. his father, fred koch, founded the kansas-based oil and gas conglomerate, koch industries, now the second wealthiest privately-owned business in the country, with annual revenues of over $100 billion. bill koch was fired from the company, after he tried to gain control of it. he sued his brothers charles and david for his share and went on a multi-million dollar spending spree, collecting not just art, but trophies, including the america's cup in 1992 and a cellar full of the finest and rarest wine in the world. and how many bottles do you think you have in here? >> koch: oh gosh, probably 15,000 or something like that. >> alfonsi: his finest wine and those most desired by collectors are from centuries-old chateaus in the bordeaux and burgundy regions of france.

bottles with an interesting backstory fetch especially high prices. christie's auction house sold one bottle supposedly owned by founding father thomas jefferson, for a record price of more than a $156,000. >> koch: when i saw-- that malcolm forbes-- or actually his son, kip forbes, bought a bottle of thomas jefferson wine, i said, "i've got to have that." so i went out searching for it, and low and behold, i found four bottles. 1784 branne mouton t.h.j. >> alfonsi: thomas jefferson. >> koch: that's right. >> alfonsi: in 2005, koch decided to include a photo of one of his prized jefferson bottles in an exhibit of his collection. koch asked brad goldstein, his private investigator-- when you're a billionaire, you have one-- to reach out to historians at thomas jefferson's home, monticello. >> koch: that's one of those phone calls that always--

i'll never forget. >> alfonsi: what happened? >> brad goldstein: i got the curator of the museum on the line, and she said, "i have some bad news for you. these bottles have nothing to do with thomas jefferson." and i said, "uh, oh. ( laughs ) uh, oh. this isn't going to go well." >> alfonsi: monticello historians told them thomas jefferson didn't have his wine bottles engraved, and this is not his signature. how many bottles of the thomas jefferson wine did you purchase? >> koch: i purchased four bottles. >> alfonsi: and what did you pay for them? >> koch: i paid $100,000 per bottle. so $400,000 for fake bottles. >> alfonsi: koch dispatched his private investigator, brad goldstein, to germany, to track down hardy rodenstock, a wine spectator cover boy and collector who claimed to have discovered the jefferson bottles. rodenstock wouldn't talk to brad goldstein-- or "60 minutes," for that matter. but there was someone who was prepared to talk to koch's

private eye about wine forgery; a man who said he had crafted fake labels for hardy rodenstock for years. >> goldstein: i would bring him pictures, and we would go through, like going through baseball cards, "which one did you do?" and he would pick them out. >> alfonsi: how many did he do? >> goldstein: he did about-- a dozen plates, but that's not how many he printed. ( laughs ) he printed thousands. >> alfonsi: thousands. >> goldstein: he would say, "okay, blow up this looped "l" and-- you'll see here, i had a hard time with my-- with my knife, and i made a nick here, and that's how you're going to be able to detect that on the la fleur, it's-- it's a fake." i mean, the little details like that are-- are just, like, gifts. >> alfonsi: rodenstock refused to come to the united states to answer bill koch's lawsuit, and koch won a judgment against him anyway for more than $1 million. it hasn't been paid. >> goldstein: the wines that he was importing into the united states-- first of all, he-- some

( laughs ) so that-- never made-- >> alfonsi: never existed-- >> goldstein: --never, never existed. >> alfonsi: what a bold thing to do. >> goldstein: and nobody bothered to check. >> koch: when i first heard about it, i said, "my gosh, i've got to look at my whole wine collection." then i began to find more and more fake bottles. this is a bottle of chateau lafite rothschild 1870. and we had a materials expert analyze this and he said, the glue behind here is elmer's glue, and that wasn't made in 1870. >> alfonsi: oh, my goodness. >> auctioneer: ...at $48,000. sold. >> alfonsi: bill koch traced more than half of his 400 fake bottles to this man, a wine dealer in los angeles named rudy kurniawan... >> rudy kurniawan: but you know, only the great burgundys go up in price. >> alfonsi: ...who was dazzling hollywood with his superior palette and lavish wine tastings. >> kurniawan: it dances in your mouth. to me, you know, it's like, ohh, la, la, you know. >> alfonsi: koch bought this

he also alerted the u.s. attorney's office. jason hernandez was assigned to investigate. >> jason hernandez: rudy was a new money guy that no one really knew where he was from. he was flashy, he liked nice cars, he had-- you know, hermes suits. he traveled on a private jet. and he spent millions of dollars a year on wine. >> alfonsi: was he fueling his lifestyle with the money that he was making selling fakes, or did he have more income coming in? >> hernandez: it was all from making counterfeit wines. he didn't have a day job. his day job was to work in his kitchen and make $10,000-$20,000 bottles of wine. >> alfonsi: in 2012, the f.b.i. raided rudy kurniawan's home in california where he was blending high-end wine with cheaper wine and rebottling it behind expensive labels. >> goldstein: this was, like, santa's workshop. ( laughs ) it was, like, all that was missing was the elves. he had the bottles laid out. he had the labels stacked, and currency. "this is where he made

>> hernandez: these wines were made by rudy kurniawan in los angeles. they're not from france-- they're from his kitchen. >> alfonsi: chateau rudy. >> hernandez: chateau rudy. >> alfonsi: rudy kurniawan made tens of millions of dollars fooling wealthy buyers. he was convicted and sentenced to prison for ten years. >> koch: there is a code of silence in this business-- because obviously, the faker doesn't want anybody to know that he's making fake wine. the auction house doesn't want to know that, and then, the collector himself generally doesn't want to know it. or if he finds out, he wants to find a secret way to dump it and get his money back. and that's why, you see, i was very unique in being the one who said "i'm going to stand up for it. i'm going to shine a bright light on these fakers." >> alfonsi: how much money did you spend tracking down who sold you those bottles? >> koch: i spent over

>> alfonsi: $35 million? >> koch: yes, more. >> alfonsi: why? >> koch: i was a dog gone-- on a bone. ( laughs ) i wasn't going to give up. >> alfonsi: he sued christies, which sold one of the jefferson bottles, but the court ruled the statute of limitations had expired. christies declined to be interviewed for this story. bill koch told us even when the wines are genuine, the stories that sell them may not be. the details are often a mystery. in one of his lawsuits, koch had to contend with this man, an expert witness and wine consultant named gil lempert schwarz. koch's team challenged his credibility in court and suggested we look at a 2015 auction where lempert schwarz offered a trove of wines that he said were discovered in a swedish nobleman's cellar. just the kind of story that can drive prices up. is it true? is this story true? >> gil lempert schwarz: of course it is. >> alfonsi: i'm going to read from the catalog. you wrote that yis

"while the early morning mist hovered outside the 19th century manor house, it quickly became apparent that this wasn't any old swedish wine cellar lurking directly underneath." did you find that cellar? >> lempert schwarz: of course. >> alfonsi: what can you tell me about it? >> lempert schwarz: nothing other than what i use in the description. it was an old family house. it was a cellar that was brought to me by a family friend. >> alfonsi: he was a swedish nobleman, is what you said? >> lempert schwarz: well, this-- this-- this was-- this is the family-- that owns the house. >> alfonsi: who was that family? >> lempert schwarz: i can't disclose who that family was. they were clients of mine. there are binding non-disclosure agreements, as are signed with every client. that's why no names will come out. and in the auction business, there are no names. >> alfonsi: you say in your catalog, "in fact, as records show, at one point the king himself had presented several cases of good french drinking

as a gift for their fine services." what records are you talking about? >> lempert schwarz: the family presented this to me. that was the story they told me. it was not something that i needed to go and check with swedish government records. i simply listened to a story told to me by the family. >> alfonsi: could you ask them, and say, "hey, '60 minutes' wants to know if this story's true, would you mind confirming it?" >> lempert schwarz: no, i will not do that. i will not because i don't think it's important. >> alfonsi: because there are people in the business saying you whip up fairy tales to sell wine. >> lempert schwarz: i disagree with you. >> alfonsi: you didn't weave a tale-- >> lempert schwarz: why would i? >> alfonsi: --about this cellar? >> lempert schwarz: why would i? >> alfonsi: because you can make a lot of money. >> koch: can you look at this? >> alfonsi: oh, yeah. validating stories about fine wine is hard. but as a result of bill koch's $35 million crusade, it is now easier for buyers in new york, where a lot of fine wine is sold, to sue auction houses that sell fakes.

what is it about the fraud element of this that you can't let go? there is something deep there. >> koch: well, there is, you know. then, i'd have to go to a deep shrink and find out where in my childhood-- probably because i had bigger brothers who were always beating up on me, faking me-- cheating me a little bit. maybe that's a part of it. and so i said, "i've got to establish a reputation-- that if you cheat me, i'm going to be tough." >> alfonsi: it's almost enough to make you want to buy beer? ( laughs ) have you hit that point yet? >> koch: no. ( laughs ) >> this cbs sports update is brought to you by ford. i'm james brown with the scores from the n.f.l. today. the jaguars registered ten sacks and shut out the colts.

the bills' win. the rams blank the cardinals across the pond and move to 5-2 for the first time since '03. the says beat the packers for their furth straight win. chicago beat carolina. miami scored 17 unanswered to stun the jets. for more sports news, go to cbssports.com. ♪ ♪ ♪ for those who know what they're really building. always unstoppable. we're on a mission to show drip coffee drinkers, it's time to wake up to keurig. wakey! wakey! rise and shine! oh my gosh! how are you? well watch this. i pop that in there. press brew. that's it. look how much coffee's in here? fresh coffee. so rich. i love it.

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>> whitaker: an update on last sunday's story about d.e.a. whistleblower joe rannazzisi: in a joint investigation with the "washington post," "60 minutes" pursued his allegations that the opioid crisis spread unchecked with the help of the drug distribution industry, its lobbyists, congress and tol