captioning sponsored by cbs

improper conduct. no double standard here says white house press secretary sarah sanders. >> senator franken admitted wrongdoing, the president hasn't. >> dickerson: spectacle is not slowing progress on the mammoth tax reform bill which passed the house. >> thank you. going really well. >> dickerson: but faces less certain future in the senate where tempers are already short. >> tax cut sell really is not for the middle lags it's for the rich. >> i've been here working my whole stinkin' career for people who don't have a chance. i really resent anybody saying that i'm just doing this for the rich. give me a break. >> with all due respect i get sick and tired of -- >> mr. -- how many times -- >> i get a little tired of that crap. if we brought together we can build this country -- >> dickerson: will the middle class really benefit from this tax package we'll talk with budget director mick mulvaney. plus arkan

tom colt ton who is pushing provision to end the obamacare mandate in the tax bill. california democratic congresswoman jackie speier who is leading the effort to change attitudes about sexual harass the. also have plenty of political analysis, it's all coming up on "face the nation." good morning, welcome to "face the nation." i'm john dickerson. minnesota democrat al franken stayed out of sight so far this week end as senators from both parties and franken himself have called for an ethics investigation into charges that he made unwanted advances towards model leann tweeden during a 2006uso trip. as for roy moore with the familiar alabama special election scheduled three weeks from tuesday, it will be up to the voters to determine whether or not he'll make it to the senate. we begin with cbs news correspondent dean ron who'd is in birmingham. dean, what are the chances that mr. moore goes to washington? >> well, they're not very

john. if the birmingham news has anything to say about it. there you see their editorial today, reject roy moore. they found him unfit on many levels beyond just the improprieties that are alleged with younger women in his days as a prosecutor when he was in his 50s. more over this editorial endorses deb jones, his democratic opponent. it is just the latest attempt to block moore's path to washington. judge roy moore, self styled champion of the ten commandments has claimed the support of evangelicals in his race for the senate but some in that community were pushing back this weekend. the reverend said moore's world view made him unfit even before the allegations of impropriety emerged. moore image ins the struggle for equality in america as a

of loss. >> no one got to ask moore about that or much of anything else because he spent much of the week dodging questions. no elaboration on his defiant stands against his women accusers. >> scurrilous, false, charges, not charge, allegations which i have emphatically denied time and time again. >> his lawyers try to discredit those accusers in one case doubting moore's inscription on a woman's year book around the time she says he attacked her. >> the year book so we can determine is it genuine or a fraud. >> and as his wife said on friday he's in for the long haul. >> he will not step down. he will not stop fighting for the people of alabama. >> moore's core support estimated at no more than 0% of eligible voters here, they are deeply committed as columnist

75-80-year-old guy he's circling his calendar. >> it's a political cliche but it is true in alabama, turn out will be everything. yet few people think the turn out will exceed more than 20% of eligible voters which could provide a window of opportunity for roy moore and his very, very dedicated followers. john? >> dickerson: dean reynolds for us in birmingham, thanks, dean. if roy moore does get elected, next move up to his colleagues we're joined by one potential republican colleague, senator tom cotton of arkansas. i want to talk taw about tax reform in a moment. let's talk about this moore situation for a moment. corey gardner one of your 8:00 leagues in charge of getting republicans elected said that they should ex spell moore if he wins, would you spo

step back from roy moore speak in general about sexual harassment and sexual assault. very serious matter, has no place on the job. no plausible our society. i think sadly too many women have faced that over the course of their lives. it's not a partisan issue, there are misbehaving men in both democratic and republican parties, unfortunately there are female victims. it's happened in your industry, in hollywood, in business. so i think it's important that women feel if they have been subject to sexual harassment that they can come forward now. the harvey weinstein allegations broke about a month or so ago that's a good thing. that's a good change in the norms and expectations of our society. as far as roy moore goes i'm not going to speculate about what may happen should he win. we're three weeks out from the election, he made it pretty clear this week that he's not going to step aside. as you said in your intro up to the people of alabama to make

>> you said you wouldn't encourage people of alabama to vote for him. what is better for senate republicans if roy moore wins comes to washington as republican or if a democrat wins? >> what is better for senate republicans and the american people is that we focus on the work ahead of us which is a tax bill that cuts middle class taxes, taxes on business and repeals the hated obamacare mandate. the people of alabama will make the decision. >> dickerson: let me ask you about this form you're talking about that have changed because of this change in american culture which is going across corporations, media, congress. al franken faces a moment now, what is the emerging standard in terms of how you assess these accusations that come forward for somebody? >> i think it's hard to generalize about all cases in general. because each case there is particular different kinds of allegations, different kinds of conduct, different kinds of evidence. it's important that we take the issue of sexual harassment and sexual assault seriously and that we take each case on

valuate carefully. >> dickerson: on this new norms, lot of people said, well there were dozen or so accusers for president trump should these new norms cause reevaluation of those who came forward said that he had assaulted them or -- >> what happened in the middle of the campaign, american people had their say on that as well. i think what is important is that we take all of these things seriously and that we move forward and each individual case we have people who are charged with weighing the evidence, whether it's court of law, sexual harassment case, senate ethics committee as al frank enhas said. >> dickerson: it seems to me position is, the voters spoke, that's it for the president. why wouldn't that be the case with moore? voters speak in washington. >> that will be an important decision if the people of alabama will make. again, if he comes to the senate because the people of alabama elect him and someone files a complaint with the senate ethics committee as they have

al fran en, up to the ethics committee all the individual senators to make a decision based on their findings and recommendations. i wouldn't to speculate about hypotheticals in the future. >> dickerson: let's move on to tax reform. 13 million people will be without coverage if the individual mandate is removed as you'd like to see in this tax cut plan. what happens to those 123 1/3rd million? >> john, remember what the hated obamacare mandate is. it finds american family, insurance that made unaffordable in the first place. this bill doesn't cut that single dime from medicaid, doesn't cut a single dime from the insurance subsidy or change single regulation. it says the irs cannot fine you if you cannot afford health insurance. this has no i am pact on anyone who wants to get health insurance. under obamacare, individual exchanges are or under medicaid expansion. simply says that working families and poor americans because fur out of five americans who pay this fine make less than

afford their insurance. >> dickerson: the people won't get insurance they will get si sick, go to emergency rooms, prices will increase. premiums will increase also because insurers will be insuring a sicker pool of people. so you got premiums going up which -- what's your answer to that? >> my answer is that we that we need to solve the problems that obama made worse. we worked over the summer, we failed, i wish that wasn't the case with a fashion bill now that will repeal the most hated and unpopular the individual mandate no, sir more than a tax on working families and poor americans. i hope next year we return to health care, but focused on this tax bill. >> dickerson: also a tax if they're premiums go up, a little bit of middle class tax but but if people's premiums go up doesn't that negate the tax cut? >> that's not right. every income group under the senate bill will see a tax cut. now, if you voluntarily choose not to get your i

the federal government will not be paying tax subsidy not to you individually but insurance company. that's a result of voluntary choice that you make based on your own family's needs and finances. >> dickerson: the joint committee found that these tax cuts expire and middle income will see the tax cut go away. but also lisa seems to have different view. if the tax put is offset by higher premiums, you haven't delivered a benefit. so she seems to think that removing individual mandate does have affect that negates -- >> senator mr. company ski has been a leader, part that goes with exploration for oil and gas in the arctic circle. she's also said that she doesn't have any preconditions on this vote and, remember, vast majority of people on the obamacare exchanges are getting subsidies. if their premiums do go up they're still going to get higher subsidies. also, let's look what premiums have happened over the last four

more than doubled since 2013. they are projected to go up by 37% next year. obamacare is already failing with the mandate, we shouldn't be fining poor people and working american families because they can't afford the insurance that's going up. >> dickerson: senator mr. company ski says she's does have preconthat the insurance needs to be stabilized in order for her to vote on the tax cut. let me ask you one quick question before we go. the air force general, john hyten head of the strategic command said he would push back on order from president trump to launch nuclear strikes. you're on the armed services committee, the push back on nuclear strike that he considered to be illegal. what is your take on that? >> john, since the dawn of the nuclear age we've recognized the practical reality that the president has to hold in his hands the decision to use our nuclear weapons. if there's a first strike against the united states the president has a matter of minutes not hours, not days but matter of minutes to make that decision. it simply doesn't make sense to have congress involved in the

matter. however, what we hope to do is to be able to deter any country from ever launching that kind of trike us whether it's north korea or russia or china or-near nuclear power. that's so important that president trump largely succeeded on his trip to eric last week to put more pressure on kim young unnot to use those nuclear weapons in. >> in non-retaliatory situation you're okay in the way the system works? >> it's never been the policy of the united states to renounce the first use of nuclear weapons. it wasn't president obama's policy either. i hope that we never have to employ our nuclear weapons. but in a non-retaliatory situation, sure, a president has hours or days to make a considered deliberate decision that is why he has joint chiefs and commanders and strategic command. >> dickerson: senator cotton, thank you so much. >> thank you, john. dickerson: the debate over sexual harassment moved into the halls of congress after

public with her own experience of unwand sexual advances as a young capitol hill staffer. speier's revelation inspired leann tweed tone come forward with her allegations against senator franken. this week, congresswoman speier introduced legislation in the house aimed at fighting sexual harassment in congress. and she joins us this morning from palm springs, california. congresswoman, start with something you wrote, you said that it's clear the good old boys mentality of capitol hill still persist after all these years. it is perhaps the worst i've seen in 0 years of working on these issues. old boys club was bad you're saying it's worse now? >> well, i think it's worse in part because we have ha system in place that allows for the harasser to go unchecked. doesn't pay for the settlement himself and is never identified. the office of compliance to which victim must apply o

really been an enabler of sexual harassment for these many years because of the way it's constructed. >> dickerson: as congress and the larger culture tries to figure out what the standard is for treating accusers who come forward, something better than what has been where they have been blocked, but also something that doesn't allow false accusations how does that standard get determined in your mind? >> well, first of all, we have to make sure that a complaint is taken seriously. and that the person who is the victim is not somehow tortured or intimidated into not filing the complaint. that's what it is right now in congress. there's a one-month period where your counseled, another month where you go to mandatory mediation you have to sign a non-disclosure agreement at the front end. a month of cooling off period, that is truly ridiculous, it's important for us to remember, too, john, that over

90% of those who have been vehicles wallly harassed or sexually assaulted are telling the truth. all these victims who have come forward with roy moore or with the president or with al franken, all of them i think have to be -- we expect to believe them because for the most part they are telling the truth. there's no gain for them to come forward lots of down sides, frankly. >> dickerson: what's your view about '-evaluating the situation, you mentioned the president, the white house seems to suggest and senator cotton suggests that the voters knew about this they voted for him so it's an issue that's in the past. how do you see it? >> i think there is some truth to that. if the president was running today, i bet he would not be elected because i think we have had a huge cultural shift that 40 years in the making, but i think all of us are grateful now that there is a new day for women in the workplace where they do not have to

sexual advances that are unwand that they do not have to live and work in a hostile work environment. and that's going to be good for all of us in the workplace. >> dickerson: as that cultural shift takes place, some people have argued, some democrats and liberals argued that reevaluation of bill clinton's presidency is required, what do you think about that in order to be clear about what the new standard is and use elements from the past that are well-known. >> first of all let's remember that he did face impeachment. it wasn't as fit was just tossed to the side. he faced impeachment. i think that the victims who came forward were not treated as they should have been, they should have been believed because as i pointed out, most people who come forward are telling the truth. >> dickerson: in the case of al franken what is your feeling about that, there have been columnist that have written that

basically again, liberals have said he must leave the senate in order to -- for democrats to retain credibility or open to the charge that democrats apply it when it comes to republicans, that are more generous when it comes to their own team. >> i think it's appropriate for the ethics committee to do an investigation, senator franken has actually agreed to that as well. i also think that it has to be determined if there's a pattern of sexual harassment. incidents have to be severe or they have to be ones that happen over a period of time. i think we'll wait and see what the investigation determines. >> dickerson: is that instructive distinction then, pattern versus specific mistake in terms of what might penalize somebody but be the difference between penalizing and expulsion? >> that's what the courts have held with sexual harassment cases. if there's a pattern then sexual harassment is found to be

existence. if it's a one event and maybe a conversation versus sexual assault or an unwanted sexual advance, it really depends on the circumstances in all of these cases. >> dickerson: final question on different topic on tox, in california voted for the house tax cut bill in which deductibility of state and local taxes is no longer allowed. they were told at least one of them was told, that will get fixed later and californians who have had taxes will be able to deduct them. what is your -- do you believe that? >> no, i don't believe it. i think for all of those members who basically have handed their constituents a $10,000 tax increase that's what here talking about. when you take the state and local taxes and the property taxes, and the mortgage deduction that is reduced the 500,000 is a huge hit for every

>> dickerson: congresswoman, thanks for being with us. we'll be back in one minute with white house budget director mick mulvaney. [ keyboard clacking ] [ click ] [ keyboard clacking ] [ clacking continues ] good questions lead to good answers. our advisors can help you find both. talk to one today and see why we're bullish on the future.

>> dickerson: we're back with mick mulvaney the director of white house office of management and budget. mr. director, i want to start with the individual mandate. something the president wants, it's in the bill now, part in the senate just make the numbers add up. if it was taken out would the president be okay with maybe cutting that corporate rate to 22% all the way down to 20 to make up that money that they need in the senate? >> no. i don't think so. i don't think anybody doubts where the president is on repeal or replace. the white house would love to see obamacare taken apart all at once, bit by bit. however we can do it. that being said, there's a couple of things that the president has been very clear on from the very beginning. number one, middle class ordinary americans working folks have to pay less and has to be simpler. number two, that corporate tax rate has to be as low as possible. virtually wanted it at 15%. we agreed with house senate leadership to go to 20% as part of the early

interest in going above 20%: so, i think at the end of the day, john, what we're interested in is the best tax bill that can pass. if a good tax bilk pass with that obama mandate, great. if it needs to come out in order for that good tax bill to pass, we can live with that as well. >> dickerson: let me look at those two things, middle class tax cut and corporate tax. there's no question as you've said the president wants it at 20. nobody ever doubted whether corporations will get that reduction to 20 really in all the conversation i've seen. in the middle class it's fuzzier, used to be that they would say everybody in the middle class get a tax cut. now the joint committee shown that 24 1/4 million because. sunset provision, they're not going to get tax cut. taxes are going to go up. it seems when you look at the way this is played out corporations are so solid, nobody saying they're not going to get what they're going to get. the middle class is not so solid. it's awfully fuzzy. isn't that the reverse of what elected donald trump?

scratching the surface, welcome to my world. now dealing with the world of senate scoring, keep in mind go back to the beginning of this process one of the big things that happened just the house and the senate passed the same budget, they're allowed to use reconciliation to pass this bill in the senate with only 50 votes. in order to do that, they give great deal of control to the congressional budget office they have to say it source a certain way. the only reason that you're seeing these middle class tax cuts supposedly expire after five years, part of it at least, to score it in a certain fashion. take this round pg try to shove it into a square hole. no one really wants those things to happen. think it's good policy it becomes permanent like most of the bush tax cuts did. >> dickerson: the other side because those rules are in place for a reason. but we got to take a break. we'll be -- more with mick mulvaney when we come back. stay with us. it lets you know where your data lives, down to the very server. it keeps your insights from prying eyes,

so they're used by no one else but you. it. is. the cloud. the ibm cloud. the cloud that's designed for your data. ai ready. secure to the core. the ibm cloud is the cloud for business. yours. what if we could keep more amof what we earn?d. trillions of dollars going back to taxpayers. who could possibly be against that? well, the national debt is $20 trillion. as we keep adding to it, guess who pays the bill? him. and her. and her. congress, we should grow the economy. not the debt. ♪ at bp's cooper river plant, employees take safety personally - down to each piece of equipment, so they can protect their teammates and the surrounding wetlands, too.

and always working to be better. what's going on? oh hey! ♪ that's it? yeah. ♪ everybody two seconds! ♪ "dear sebastian, after careful consideration of your application, it is with great pleasure that we offer our congratulations on your acceptance..." through the tuition assistance program, every day mcdonald's helps more people go to college. it's part of our commitment to being america's best first job. ♪ the markets change... at t. rowe price... our disciplined approach remains. global markets may be uncertain... but you can feel confident in our investment experience around the world. call us or your advisor... t. rowe price. invest with confidence.

weekend book broadcast, we'll explore issue of leadership in tough times including new books on both president bush's union general turned presidents u leases s. grant and nation's 32nd president. plus look at book about artist leonardo da vin she that's next week here on "face the nation." retail. under pressure like never before. and it's connected technology that's moving companies forward fast. e-commerce. real time inventory. virtual changing rooms.

deliver consistent network speed across multiple locations. every corporate office, warehouse and store near or far covered. leaving every competitor, threat and challenge outmaneuvered. comcast business outmaneuver. searching for answers may feel overwhelming. so start your search with our teams of specialists at cancer treatment centers of america. the evolution of cancer care is here. learn more at cancercenter.com/experts money managers are pretty much the same. all but while some push high commission investment products, fisher investments avoids them. some advisers have hidden and layered fees. fisher investments never does. and while some advisers are happy to earn commissions from you whether you do well or not, fisher investments fees are structured so we do better when you do better. maybe that's why most of our clients come from other money managers.

clearly better money management. bp uses flir cameras - a new thermal imagining technology - to inspect difficult-to-reach pipelines, so we can detect leaks before humans can see them. because safety is never being satisfied. and always working to be better. >> dickerson: we'll be right back with lot more "face the nation." stay with us.

>> dickerson: question cool book. more of our conversation can white house budget director mick mulvaney. i want to just button up on this point about arcane senate rules. those are in place, though, to force budget discipline and so that people don't say let's get a lot of tax cuts blow a big hole in the deficit one of the huge knocks against this tax cut. size. debt but going to increase. >> they are. also written in 1974, haven't been changed, i don't think at all since then just very difficult to do, difficult to model a $20 trillion economy. make the argument if i sold 100 of these cups last year at $5 then i'd lower price to $4 this year that i won't sell any more. that's what the scoring does. it is arcane system, we think it's broken and doesn't reflect the real world but we have to ay

>> dickerson: also, people are saying, i think you suggested this before the break, that eye shanely if people like the tax cuts they're going to get continued. future congress will do this. isn't that slightly dishonest you are hoping, i'm not saying you, in this general argument, you're bakesly saying these are going to continue just trust us and also the budget impacts on deficit again, which has an affect on the economy, those are not being taken into account but you're assuming that these tax cuts -- >> if the senate rules are different everything would be permanent or as permanent as anything is in washington, d.c., clearly new government can change the law. but go back to the example of the bush tax cuts which were supposedly temporary he they worked, people liked them, they became permanent law. which is where we are today. again, i want confuse things that we do to try and shoehorn into the senate rules. >> dickerson: let me ask think question, the tax cuts are built an on idea that corporations o

reduced that they will pass on to the middle class people. gary cohen the white house economic advisor was at a ceo meeting, you will wall street journal hosted, the audience east having asked to apps create more american jobs they wanted show of hands. hands did not shoot to the ceiling are he noted that more people, this is central premise hot this is going to work, a lot of doubt about that. >> i asked him about that afterwards. my guess is, if i'm a fortune 500 ceo i'm not going to tell my competitors who are sitting next to me what i'm going to do next year. they are going to do what is in their best interest to invest here. because not only would tax rates be lower but going to expense all of their capital expenses so every new machine that they buy, every new factory that they build they will write off immediately against their tax. that is a tremendous incentive not only folks not to leave the country in the first place, but for folks who have left to come back and that's what we think is so important in

the connection between corporate success and the success of the ordinary family. go back over 70 years before 2008, every time corporation profits went up 1%, average household income went up by 1%. since then, corporate taxes are up i think 11% and household information are up 0.3. we need to reestablish that connection so that when companies do well families do well. >> dickerson: people who are going to see their taxes maybe go up if this tax cut doesn't last they hope the economy turns out and behaves the way you want. sen senator johnson from wisconsin, republican, said on cnn what i want to see is the information to prove the economic growth we're going to get. even he is skeptical of a publif lot of this bill is skeptical about this central theory that is at the heart of it. >> senator johnson is sort of honed in on one thing that we knew was the last big substantive piece of the puzzle. how to deal with the pass-through entities, s corporations, llcs and partnerships. their tax are different than c

tax at the individual level. so when you start to lower the corporate tax rate it's arguably putting s corporations at disadvantage that needs to be worked out. sen to johnson hit on this, it needs to get fixed but i'm comfortable that it will be. >> dickerson: it's going to cost money if it is. >> not to keep more of their own money. costs money to spend money you don't have. that's another issue. >> dickerson: thanks soap nor being with us, we'll be right back with our political panel. she had so many children she had to buy lots of groceries. while she was shopping for organic fruits and veggies, burglars broke into her shoe. they stole her kids' mountain bikes and tablets along with her new juice press. luckily the geico insurance agency had helped her with homeowners insurance. she got full replacement on the stolen goods and started a mountain bike juice delivery service. call geico and see how affordable homeowners insurance can be.

political panel, ruth marcus editorial page editor of the "washington post." a senior writer at the "national review," we're also joined by susan page washington bureau chief for "usa today." and ed o'keefe who covers politics on capitol hill for the "washington post" also cbs news contributor. ed, i'll start with you. what's going to happen with roy moore? >> you know, doesn't look like he's leaving the race or republicans outside of alabama can do anything to compel him to do it. means it will cause probably political headaches or national republicans throughout the rest of the year. a poster boy for what democrats would think is wrong with washington and with the republican party. and if mitch mcconnell threats this past week were true it will lead immediately to ethics investigation of the new senator, possibly concurrent with the one that would be underway for al franken and maybe also one underway for senator bob mne

thanksgiving break from a federal corruption trial. it will be interesting year, certainly. >> dickerson: and at this point republicans just have to probably hope that there's nothing else out there that is even more yet there's reason to believe that there is. >> dickerson: senate ethics committee, senator menendez was found to have mistrial this week which is -- triggered the move by mcconnell. david, welcome. answer the question i pose to tom cotton, what what is better for republicans, if he wins or loses? >> clearly better if roy moore loses. couple of reasons. one it will be very important party hygiene. steve bannon needs to lose. roy moore needs to lose. those who are connected right now. if what people -- many people are forgetting blot that this would be not just to the roy moore side of the g.o.p. which needs to lose but the steve bannon enterprise of tryingo

it. he needs to be discredited, if he helps lose a senate seat in one of the brightest, reddest states in the nation, why would anyone listen to steve bannon ever again. so that is, i think, an incredibly important potential moment of party hygiene. we don't know if that is going to happen yet. >> dickerson: and susan, mitch mcconnell would have a senator come in who is clearly a improvisational character, roy moore, would -- couldn't this get managed the way mitch mcconnell thinks it could get managed or is he hoping he doesn't have to handle? >> if he could cast a vote, i think he was born in alabama, actually. mitch mcconnell would not vote for roy moore. for one thing, roy moore is not a mitch mcconnell republican. running on campaign to eject mitch mcconnell from the leadership. in no way is this good for mitch mcconnell even if it costs him one of those crucial republican senate se

on who is going to win that race, though. we do have democrat ahead in polls, one of the lessons from last year's presidential campaign don't look at the polls, who is energized to show up. i don't think we know yet whether it's diehard roy moore supporters or other people in alabama who are disgusted by what they're seeing. >> dickerson: ruth, democrats are disgusted but are they going to turn out in alabama and in some ways, democrats are enjo enjoying this moment leading morality aside, many are happy to, to see republican party stuck with a roy moore. >> sure. i think you need to listen who is look at who is energized also need to look who is disgusted. i think there are lot of republicans in alabama who aren't going to rouse themselves to go out and vote for democratic candidate. but who just would prefer to stay home, hold their noses see what happens. >> dickerson: ruth, tell us, we got historical change

washington with respect to capitol hill. name that moment. temp us what moment we're in? >> i think we're in chapter 3. chapter one was anita hill and clarence thomas where a lot of people who probably should have known better discovered that there was this problem called sexual harassment in the workplace. and yes, women didn't always go yelling and screaming about it at the exact moment that it happened. chapter two was monica lewinsky, bill clinton. chapter three is now, i think this is probably the most significant chapter of them all. where we are is we understand that there's a lot of -- this behavior is rampant, there's a lot of need that is intolerable in the workplace. and elsewhere. and we have not been serious enough about dealing with it. where we -- what we haven't figured out yet s what is the appropriate punishment for each -- for various transgressors. that's what we're grappling wit. >> dickerson: one of the things e

franken in the senate. what is your sense of -- columnist, "new york times" says he must go, democrats lose credibility. felt like real pressure, where is that pressure now on him? >> i think if there's something else, either before he was a senator or especially since he became a senator, at that point it's just a question of when and not if perhaps. if this is it. if they have the meeting that the accuser says he asked for and she's agreed to have and it goes well and he commits to an ethics investigation, and finds there's no other reason to believe that he's done something inappropriate, a cloud will hang over him for the rest of his senate tenure as it has for others. ruth actually raised an interested point in her column this week, to what extent wil will -- if there's a risk that people are -- over punished or over reaction to this, there have to be changes made at the capital in how core

but i think there's argument to be made that there could be over reaction and that would add to all the concerns that people have for scrutiny being too hot on people and keeping them from potentially engaging in public service. >> i think that the over reaction here, i don't think that senator franken should have to reshine based on where we are now. but i think there is a reasonable possibility that that will happen. in part because you use the word poster boy before, he is very unfortunate poster boy for democrats, that's not good for them. to some extent he's going -- if he is forced to resign it will be because he's paying for the under reactions to bill clinton in the past and democrats failure to pay enough attention. >> you talked about this being -- we're still living with the reverberations of chapters one and two. if joe biden runs for president

do we'll revisit the committee's hearings he chaired with senator judiciary for clarence thomas where anita hill was not taken seriously. and we have continued to see a reconsideration of whether democrats in general and feminists in particular took charges against bill clinton seriously enough. >> dickerson: one thing is, line drawing, i'm seeing line drawing in hollywood, harvey weinstein paid a price, kevin spacey paid a price, titles are being yanked down from netflix. corporate america. if evidence like that get out with al franken emerged in any of my private sector workplaces, that person would be gone. where i don't see line drawing is politics. i don't see it in politics. i believe people in politics are taking seriously this moment when someone in -- loses their career. let's be honest, these careers aren't all that po

he will be replaced by another democrat. can't even draw a line then? american people look at that say where are the lines being drawn in my life not in politics. >> dickerson: there is also another line that's being drawn, i was interested that congresswoman speier and senator cotton have in mind for president trump, if there's a reevaluation of president clinton. again, towards defining what the norms are in this situation isn't the president a part that have conversation given that there are dozen accusers and he's president of the united states. >> we have to grapple with the fact that it looks like two of the last four presidents of the united states have committed some form of sexual assault. that's dreadful. i'm the last person to say that what donald trump has been credibly accused of doing by more than dozen people should be swept under the rug. the problem we have here on that is, only the tiniest percentage of donald trump voters believe those allegations are true. not that they said, yaw, they're true and i'm votin

they just flat out don't believe it. that makes eight very -- makes it very difficult to hold him accountable. >> we also talk about line drawing or about big culture shift, shift toward believing the women. against celebrity accusers, prominent accusers. i'm not sure we've yet seen a culture shift for women who work at wal-mart more clean hotel rooms or work on factory floors who are subject to the same kind of abuse that women who work in law firms and on capitol hill are subject to. that would be a real culture shift. >> dickerson: said, franken and president trump that al franken admitted, is the line basically, what signal does that send if you're a politics. >> well, that if you can -- if you are -- they let you get away witness. the president is in very difficult position here because first attitude towards roy moore was if he did it then he has to

believe these women. leader of the party, mitch mcconnell said, i believe these women. if he can't say i believe him because that racess the question if we believe them why shouldn't we believe the women who are accusing you. i think it's a really tough question for him to answer, the amazing thing is instead of kind of trying to duck and cover and avoid this. he went out and characteristically made his life more difficult by tweeting about al franken. >> dickerson: also hit the clintons by believes the accuser of bill clinton and bringing them to the debate. >> did he last year, yeah. now really tricky situation for republicans who i think understand that this is -- he's talking out of both sides of his mouth. to credit mitch mcconnell, he began this week by very clearly saying, i believe the women. he wants roy moore to avoid getting a senate seat, wants to do everything to stop him from coming. but the fact that the most senior member of congress

that, or senior member of congress said it very clearly, everyone else to fall into place allowed franken thing to be dealt with so quickly that was a key part of chapter three as we go forward that we saw such a vane senior political leader. >> dickerson: earl back taken second with another chapter we'll talk about tax puts and the rest with our panel, stay with us.

♪ [doorbell] ♪ ♪ when you have doctors working as a team for your health, you get the care you need to help you thrive. ♪ visit kp.org to learn more. kaiser permanente. thrive. ♪

>> dickerson: we're back with our panel. david, i want to start on tax cut question with you which is often in washington where we have these cultural moments everybody gets boxed up nothing gets done. tax cut bill is moving rickety split through congress. >> right. lot of people have been down on them for doing nothing. look, i'm optimistic something is going to get done here. there's enormous pressure from every wing of the g.o.p. the g.o.p. civil war is kind of settled on this one point, there's a need for tax reform. so i do think something's going to happen and i do think what we're going to get, it's not exactly going to be the senate bill, not going house bill going to be something better than the status quo. what that is exactly going to be we don't know.

>> dickerson: ruth, you care about budgets. >> better than the status quo for who? is one thing i might say. i think that the prognosis for this bill is really interesting. every republican lawmaker that i know is desperate to see something pass. but there are two problems here. one is that they are not desperate, they don't know all agree on what that something is. the rubik's cube analogy before this is like super rubik's cube, so many pieces you can lose somebody on that senate majority is very slim. that house madge certificate is complicated. they have done nothing else legislatively they're going to just have to run on -- supreme court nominee, but it -- >> congressal view. >> yeah. >> i don't think that's great -- greatest messaging.

great news for republicans, maybe better than the alternative. but there's going to be lot of democratic messaging about hits to the middle class and favoring corporations with permanent tax cuts over the middle classman 'of whom will be worse off at the end of this. >> dickerson: do you think that's right, susan. democrats see opportunity to rush in and say, wait, the middle class tax cuts expire for 14 million. do they have an opportunity on this? >> they do, since they can argue, principle, that the trump family alone could benefit to the tune of more than $1 million if this particular tax bill passes. another problem, the number 12, that is number of full legislative days left from now until the end of the year when they need to fund the government which runs out of money on december 8th. deal with hurricane relief. it will in fact be rickety split as you said if they manage to do something by the white house deadline of christmas. to get a tax bill through. if they manage to do that it

interested in passing something that they won't care about exactly what it is they're passing. >> have to get something out of this. at least by christmas because otherwise if roy moore thing doesn't turn out the numbers in the senate will change and lose one republican senator. there are at least two, ron johnson, lisa murkowski who have real issues with tax bill. is that real opposition or is that the opposition you get? >> i'd tweak it say, ron johnson for sure based on some comments he made this morning, susan collins has legitimate concerns. murkowski's point we need to stabilize the markets. bipartisan bill, office clarified later friday despite some comments she made earlier in the day, contingent on her support for the tax bill. she's expressing a concern that some of her republican colleagues have. i would watch more the people, republican senators who are concerned about things

deficit. that is the bob corker, jeff flake, reasonable ron johnson then secondarily, whether or not this includes changes to the individual mandate. there you lose susan collins, maybe lisa murkowski, if the thing happening too fast, you may lose john mccain who has been arguing thisth has to be done fairly to both sides because of last week's deliberation. >> can i jump in on the deficit. full agreement here. >> neither can the deficit. >> right. on point, we're going to pass this but going to be fiscally responsible because it's going to be only 1.5 trillion. budget director made clear to you in his comments that that is not the intention at all. the intention is to eventually make these -- individual tax cuts permanent to the tune of closer to over 2.2 trillion dollars. if you think that you're fiscally responsible to only afford a $1.5 trillion tax cut, you should not

because everybody is saying it's going to cost more than that. >> dickerson: david, give me a tense of two things. one what ruth says and what happened to the fiscal hawks. then secondly you mentioned steve bannon and people he supports and the kind of core of the trump message. how does this tax bill line up with them that corporations are going to go down to 20%. do they care or do they buy the argument from trump -- >> i really can't believe that this trump populism thing is not really a meaningful ideological movement in the republican party. trumpism is the personal ambition of donald trump. that's trumpism. this populism is a relatively small slice of the g.o.p. pie. we're not looking at a big political sea change here. the people who make up trump's base are very -- far more concerned with the perception that donald trump exceeding than they are with any given line item of the quote, unquote, 'general d. i think that bottom line analysis here, does

help get tax reform passed if the answer is, yes, nada. if the answer is, no. then, well, it's mitch and paul ryan, not donald trump. that will ultimately receive the blame in trump world. but i think that we've gotten down to sort of post ideological age when it comes to the success of donald trump where the most important thing is, perceived by his fans as the success of drum 7. >> dickerson: make america great again for anyone who doesn't know that susan page, 16% in a poll thought they were going to get a tax cult here. what david says about the trump voter rings true from the trump voters i've talked to. what about the rest of the country? >> i think it's a tough sell for the rest of the country. especially because some of the arguments they're making are owe seesly disproved. for instance, the idea that the estate tax is going to small businesses. this year, 80 farms and small businesses are affected by the estate tax.

the wealthiest americans, only 5,000 or so of whom get caught in the estate tax. i think that the idea that the reality of the tax cut helps the rich at the expense, raising taxes over the long term for families is something that makes difficult for republicans. >> dickerson: we'll be back in a moment.

the only thing better than playing a hero in the movies, is being a hero in real life.

(a paid presentation rfrom meaningful beauty. by cindy crawford. (female announcer) with special appearances from some of your tv favorites sharing their number one skin saving secrets. (male announcer) plus, a stunning before and after story from today's special guest, lori loughlin. (female announcer) at age 52, the star of full house and much more says her skin seems to be looking not older but younger thanks to friend and supermodel cindy crawford. (lori) i really do feel like my skin has been restored and i've traveled back in time. (male announcer) could it be the fountain of youth we've been waiting for? stay tuned to find out. (soft music) (cindy) what's important about beauty is that idea of confidence and how you communicate yourself. ♪