there was also another attorney representing the trump family, eric trump and don jr. trump family attorney used his time to attack a key witness for the prosecution, michael cohen. saying, quote, when you talk about credibility you will have a guy who lied to everyone, a convicted felon. and despite the wild fluctuations in trump's valuation, sometimes as much as ten times the appraised value, leena habba said, quote, was there no intent to defraud. period. the end. but of course, the judge has already decided that trump and the other defendants committed fraught and that's now settled as a matter of law. so this trial is about how much money will trump pay in damages, potentially upwards of a quarter of a billion dollars and whether he and the family members that are a part of this case will effectively be banned from doing business in his home state of new york. back with me is neal katyal and maya wiley. i want to start with you. donald trump's defense saying this is a, quote, victimless crime and that the lenders profited from these financial transactions and how

trump is at the apex of his power.litics, i wonder if you can explain how this has happened. >> alex, it is an incredibly difficult thing to wrap your brain around, somebody has been indicted four times, impeached twice, broken nearly every norm in the country, failed dramatically -- the economy absolutely upside down. and yet, inside of his own party, there is a new permission structure about what constitutes the norm and what is at the center of the party and what animates that aspirations for the future. >> yeah. >> we saw that play out in the speakers contest recently, when they booted kevin mccarthy for allegedly not being maga enough, not being conservative enough. if you look at all the contestants for the gop primary price, you get up on that stage, all of them affirmed on trump's behavior and, instead of creating any count ability whatsoever, they double down on the notion that he should not have been impeached, that they would have defended him during that moment of crisis. they seem to have turned a blind ey

so why is trumping court? this time gabriel elizondo explains in new this is a somewhat complicated case, but what it really boils down to are allegations of fraud related to trumps. business dealings and with the trump organization, the new york attorney general's office after a years long investigation brought this case last year. and at the core it alleges the trump and the trump organization, intentionally inflated the value of trumps real estate assets. everything from golf courses to hotels, to apartments, to the tune of $3500000000.00 in order to gain more favorable loan terms. now this isn't very much a crime, and that is why these allegations were brought forth by the attorney general's office. now last week, the judge in this case already made a ruling that trump was liable for falsifying or lying about his wealth on financial documents. so wires this trial going forward because they're still 6 other locations by the attorney general's office related to this case. and the potential of fraudulent busi

>> today is a very bad day for donald trump. but i will say, wolf, i don't think it's a complete surprise for trump, because they have been wondering for months now what meadows was telling prosecutors. it was public that he had testified to the grand jury. we reported that back in june. but now donald trump knows that mark meadows has immunity. he is protected from whatever he might have been vulnerable to. i want to add one thing to this. in addition to his testimony, mark meadows was ordered and would come under this immunity agreement to hand over documents. anything relevant. emails. text messages. so there may be a trove of physical documents, communications, that also add to the picture and the evidence, wolf. >> very significant development indeed. gloria, meadows was certainly one of trump's closest and highest-ranking advisers over at the white house. it's hard to overstate how big of a blow, potentially, this is for the former president, right? >> well, it certainly is. i mean, he was the enabler for donald trump. if

there's donald trump the former president, there's his son donald trump jr., eric trump, allen weisselberg jeffrey mccanney. >> secret service walking in. >> ivanka trump was originally named as a defendant but the case against her was dismissed basically because it was too old. there also are about ten different corporate entities named in this indictment, all related to donald trump and the trump organization, but to your question, kate, technically speaking we're going to -- the judge needs to return separate verdicts for each of these defendants, each count. so it's possible the judge finds donald trump liable on a certain count but let's say jeffrey mccanney not liable on that account, bigger picture if i'm at the defendant's table i would want my defense to be coordinated with the others. i think i would want to have everyone sort of growing in the same direction here. >> on that note i wanted to ask you, when we were speaking before you said if you were given the option of prosecuting, of trying the criminal indictment that he's facing in new york or the hush money payments or this

let's talk with two former trump white house aides, former trump white house press secretary stephanie grisham, and former white house deputy press secretary sarah matthews. glad to have you both here. sarah, let me begin with you. this has been quite a day between jenna ellis and now mark meadows. what has been your reaction? who should be the most nervous tonight? >> i think that donald trump has to be shaking in his boots right now. this was a blockbuster day in terms of witness cooperation. first, you have jen ellis in georgia who took a plea deal and is now agreeing to cooperate with prosecutors and testify against donald trump and the other coconspirators. this is someone who donald trump would know well. she would talk to him regularly because she was one of his key people on tv and that is what he cared about most, was his image that was being represented on tv. so, she would have had the ear of the president. then you look to mark meadows, his own chief of staff now is being reported by abc as cooperating, potentially, and has immunity of some sort with the doj. mark meadows w

the trump the chaos being part of it is the trump brand. they either like that brand of politics or really, really do not like that brand of politics. this just feels like some people most of america has never heard of kind of tarnishing the entire party with this sort of brand of chaos and disorganization. and that concern is certainly something i've been hearing from a lot of republican strategists and pollsters and people like that. most of them believe perhaps by the time the next election rolls around, a year or so, this will be forgotten. you havebe biden out there dealg with really volatile -- >> with war. >> yeah, with war. dealing with multiple wars. and then you have the republican kind of going back and forth on a bunch of people that most people have nerve heard of fighting about a position most of america probably doesn't really understand what it does or doesn't do. and so it's d exactly the contrt democrats want right now, and all they have to do is sit back and let it happen. >> to lisa's point, charlie, you talk about the p

beat trump. that was the entire thought process was we got to beat trump for understandable reasons. this is covid. i mean, i it but that that was in the assessment and we report in the book there are a lot of folks in california especially the told told the then vp biden look you don't don't pick kamala harris that pushback against her so much so that biden told eric garcetti, his now ambassador to india then the mayor of l.a. he said eric, what doesn't the folks in california not like kamala harris because he was there was so much pushback. so he knew. joe, let me ask you because we talked about kind of the first two years of the biden administration being tough, but by all accounts, recently i mean, he's engaged in high level diplomacy. the economy seems to be getting, but his numbers are still all underwater. if you think people are just still baked in to their perception of him and how well, i mean, legislatively, the first two years of the biden administration, you know, you could put it on

nuclear secrets to an australian billionaire who purchased his access to donald trump while donald trump was president. donald trump is the only president in history who publicly put a price tag on physical access to him with the price paid for that access going straight into his own pocket not his campaign australian billionaire anthony pratte decided to pay that price. for access to the president of the united states, by buying a membership at the mar-a-lago club that donald trump runs at his florida residence, because he could not afford the home without the income from the club. the australian billionaire bought that access only after donald trump became president, and he got exactly what he wanted at the club. which was frequent contact with donald trump, including having dinner with the then president of the united states, the new york times reporting tonight, shortly after he left office, former president donald j trump shared apparently classified information about american nuclear submarines with an australian businessmen during an evening of conversation at mar-a-lago, his priv

they set up a stage that had trump on either side and signs that said union members for trump, and that not an accident but intentional and optics with a made for television event so that the cameras would show that union members, and we don't have confirmed that they were union members, but that is the show they were putting on for the camera, and one thing that donald trump and his team are very good at. it is interesting to note here, they have been talking to the team for weeks and months about how he is going to be on the trail if he is in trial every single day, and it does appear this is one strategy they will definitely try in terms of campaigning for president 2024. >> again, donald trump is speaking there. >> he is still talking. >> and kristen, among other things, he called judge arthur engoron, and he can't be more than 30 yards from where the judge is. and also, the attorney general of new york is 30 feet behind the door where donald trump is speaking right now. and i want to bring in paula reid, because he is talking, and talking and talking in front of the cameras now and

trump is likely right. he is being shown in a sort of tag team series of prosecutions and civil lawsuits where one prosecutor attacks another. they are all insisting on these trials occurring before the election. there are many people that find that troubling. and so he is right in that, i think, it is not going to do much in terms of his standing in the election. the problem that he has is this new york law that the new york law is different from most jurisdictions. he has been prosecuted with what's called a section 63.12 action. you don't need to show intent to defraud and need to show that people lost money. i think a lot of people will look at that and go why have all of these proceedings. this huge effort if no money was lost. it gets more wicked from there because the state can disgeorge profit even though people didn't lose money. in a case like ernst and young and other cases, they were able to get millions of dollars to disgorge the process even though they weren't damages to anyone in particular.

after pratt spoke with trump, he heard the australian telling someone else what trump had told him. in all, pratt described what the former president had told him in emails and in conversations with at least 45 others, including six journalists, 11 of his company's 'em ply yemployees, t australian officials, and three former australian prime ministers, the sources told abc news. the potential disclosure was uncovered as part of the investigation into trump's alleged mishandling of classified documents, the sources told abc news. but there is no indication that trump showed the australian any of those classified documents. it's unclear if the information trump allegedly shared with pratt was accurate, but abc news was told the investigators asked pratt not to repeat it, suggesting it was too sensitive to share. while there's no indication this involved classified documents, it gets to how trump treated sensitive military secrets. and in an indication of how jack smith sees this, his investigators have spoke on the that australian billionaire at least twice. tonight, there is no comme

and trump org. the state's attorneys spent several hours questioning bender on financial documents that relate to alleged crimes from 2011. now, that is outside the statute of limitations, the court has already decided the crimes alleged have to be from 2014 and on. and so the fact that this was continued on for three hours, the judge said, was he's hoping the state's attorneys are going to connect the dots between what they're alleging prior to 2014 to what happened, and is relevant to this particular trial, and he said in that, i trust, that you can relate the 2011 documents to something that happened later, or else this has been a waste of time. so, trump very happy to hear that from the judge, of course marly because he fought in appeals court and won when the institute statute of limitations would be established. that's why he was more jovial. he did take many times before to disparage the judge in those comments in the hallway and of course letitia james the new york attorney general who has b

they played snippets of deposition testimony from eric trump, donald trump jr. and donald trump himself. all three expected to be witnesses in this case. here is what donald trump said as he sought to distance himself from the financial stnlts at the heart of this case. take a listen. >> to meet your obligation here? presenting the information in accordance with gap. was allen weisselberg responsible for that? >> back to the form. >> i would say yes. >> now they also showed a letter that trump himself had signed that was sent to deutsche bank, one of the banks that loaned them money. this is part of the eg's office attempt to link trump from the financial statements to the loans at issue in this case. part of the elements of this case they're looking to prove now. trump's attorneys have taken issue with the allegations in this case saying that no banks lost money. banks in fact made $100 million in money. there were no conspiracy. there were no victims. they say any differences in the valuations of some of these properties such as mar-a-lago or the family home k

flag, trump claimed this.e said, quote, my net worth fluctuates. it goes up and down with the markets and with attitudes and with feelings, even my own feelings. you heard that right. he claimed that his wealth was based on his feelings. wouldn't that be nice? when asked how he'd put a number on his net worth. trump said, quote, it's based on my general attitude at the time that the question may be asked. as i say, it varies. so he admitted under oath that his numbers are a complete invention. but nobody in authority actually did anything about it until trump's former lawyer michael cohen delivered this explosive testimony in 2019. >> to your knowledge, did the president or his company ever inflate assets or revenues? >> yes. >> to your knowledge did the president ever provide inflated assets to an insurance company? >> yes. >> and was that done with the president's knowledge or direction? >> everything was done with the knowledge and at the direction of mr. trump. >> couldn't be more clear there, it's no surp

trump described mr. pratte described mr. trump's businesses as being, quote, like the mafia. according to covert recordings obtained by 60 minutes australia, and shared with the times. he also speaks admiringly about how mr. trump learned from his mentor, the lawyer and fixer roy cohn, how to walk up to the line of illegality without crossing it. he has got incredible balls, mr. pratt says. trump says, would you go and tell that guy over there to steal from me? and so he can say, i never told the guy to steal. and things like that is how trump gets away with it. crowds attempts to curry favor with trump were first reported earlier this month, with the details that trump revealed secrets about americas submarine fleet to the australian billionaire. according to protests count, as described by the sources, pratt told trump that he believed australia should start buying its submarines from the united states. to which unexpected trump, leaning toward pratt, as it to be discreet, then told pratt to pieces of information about u.s. submarines. the supposed exact number of nuclear w

so it is very unclear as to what the future of the trump organization and the wealth of the trumps will look like after this trial gets finished. remember, it is very significant trial, and like you said, the attorney general is asking for $250 million, which doesn't seem much to the trump trumps, but t judge is going to make the discretion for penalizing on which ever way he is going to find in these trials, but it is significant and interesting to find the beginning this before the opening statements started of how trump made the comments attacking james of which he is not shy of doing, and attacking judge which he is not shy of doing, and not addressing letitia james walking into the courtroom today, and the judge is going to make those decisions, and not a jury. so we will be certainly seeing how that lays out. and another thing testifying, we could hear from his sons as well, and also, bringing people to the stand who are going to show that the way they filled out all of the financial statements that they are just everyday things that happen in the state of new york, and they were

tried to lie for trump.t busted by the prosecutor with his own testimony in a previous trump civil fraud trial thing and had to come clean, that yes, he, in fact, knew that what he was doing was illegal and that he was asked to do these illegal things by cfo allen weisselberg. weisselberg, by the way, testifies on tuesday. and weisselberg will most likely say he did illegal things because trump ordered him to do illegal things. i want people to remember, all of this, all of civil fraud trial, trump's already been convicted of civil fraud. the judge before the trial even started issued a summary judgment saying that he was a fraudster. okay? that he lied about his investments. he lied about the size of his apartment in manhattan. like he's already convicted as a liar. this trial's just to see how much damages, how much crime did he really commit? that's what the trial is about. the core issues have already ruled against -- already been ruled against trump. and that's why his attempts to stop the entire trial

like president trump. -- don't like president trump. there are millions of people in colorado and across this country who are inspired by president trump. who view him as a leader of the nation they want to live in and want their children to live in. who are the petitioners to prevent those people from not being able to vote on that? who are they? we are arguing they should not be able to stop those votes. that when millions of people are inspired, and millions of people may hate that candidate, what we need to do and what the rule of democracy says is we get to vote. we don't short-circuit it through a court proceeding. we are confident because that's what the framers thought about when they drafted the 14th amendment. we are confident in that historical usage. we are confident in our legal arguments and evidence. part of the reason we are confident is because those arguments and that evidence fits within the long tradition of american democracy and american law to allow an election to go forward rather than engaging in what we conside

even if trump's team was not. and donald bender, trump's former accountant, testified today.someone that you've called before. trump looked pretty uncomfortable during that moment. why do you think it would be so upsetting? what does he have that would be upsetting to trump? >> i wasn't in court today but obviously mr. bender was an accountant who worked for the trump organization. i think testified, if i'm correct, correct me if i'm wrong, that he felt like he was misled. and misled significantly. so that -- he will be cross-examined, he's trying to cover his own mistakes. it'll be all these arguments. but those i don't think we'll have any way with the judge. as preet said, we're. done maybe he's making a record for the court of appeals. but when you are an accountant or some professional that you worked with for decades and who has an inside knowledge of finances and how business works, when that person basically says i was like to, that's relevant and important. >> they literally have the receipts. and then some, a lot of paper. but one of the things, preet, that was stri

trump. >> correct. that is correct. >> joining me now is leah littman, professor of law at the university of michigan in my cohost of the podcast and the man on the other end of that phone call, jonathan greenberg, investigative journalist and former forbes reporter. you were on the call from john baron, trumps entire reason for being is to get on this forbes list. what is your reaction to his falling off the list? >> i think both are long overdue. i don't think he has been as much as he has said for many years and i think for decades and decades, he has been pulling this stunt, this fraud and gaining the system for decades. he is commenting on the first 419 82 and continued these fabrications and lies that continued to expand and be used year after year. so, i am not surprised and i really think that he should james has a rocksolid case. >> shifting to that case, this daughter from the judge, that is this topol in new york? >> inflating his assets and loans. it affected the major issue, there is a few

trump. he's calling this is a witch hunt. this is a man who had the opportunity when he sat for a deposition with the attorney general's office to answer numerous questions and answer the allegations laid out in this lawsuit. instead, he pled the fifth. more than 400 times to be precise. when i actually asked him on friday when i was with him on the campaign trail in los angeles about one of the alleged overinflation of his assets, he demurred. i asked him specifically about his trump tower residency in midtown manhattan which he estimated the size to be 30,000 square feet instead of 10,000 square feet and placed the value at $327 million which is three times the amount of any apartment sold in new york history. take a listen to my attempt to ask him about that specific example. >> why did youoverstated the size of your apartment by 20,000 square feet? >> just for you know, it's a rigged deal. my financial statements are much lower than the actual net worth. the judge and your fake attorney

one of those potential witnesses is trump's former attorney, william barr, who trump slammed on social media last night a little more than an hour after the judge had filed her decision. at a 21 pm last night, trump posted, quote, i call bill barr dumb, weak, slow-moving, lethargic, got loose and lazy, a rhino who couldn't do the job. that's an all caps, if you're listening. bill barr is a loser, all caps. judge chutkan and special counsel's team have not yet responded to the social media attack on bill barr. the remarks are part of a pattern for the former president. while the gag order was on pause last week, trump lashed out at another potential key witness in the case. mark meadows. on tuesday last, week trump weighed in on a report from abc news that meadows, trump's former white house chief of staff had testified in the case under an immunity deal. and a social media post, trump insinuated that meadows testimony was a, quote, a lie. common judge chutkan now concluded would have been a violation of the gag order, writing in her decision last night, quote, this statement would almo

trump outside court today calling cohen a proven liar, insisting trump did nothing wrong.

trump storm out. he stormed out because they wanted to make a motion -- they wanted to make a motion to dismiss the case to which the judge responded absolutely not. you know why? because he will ultimately be held accountable. as i said the other day, that's what this is all about. it's accountability. >> michael, how did you feel going in the same courtroom as him? >> absolutely no problem for me. no problem at all. >> looking at him in the eye and -- >> absolutely. >> reporter: did you look into each other's -- >> when? >> several times. >> reporter: what was it like for you seeing him on the stand? rewasn't on the stand. i was on the stand. >> reporter: when you looked him in the eye, what did you see? >> a defeated man, somebody that knows it's the end of the trump organization, already found guilty of fraud, the license will ultimately be taken, and now this entire case is merely about how much. this is merely about how much discouragement the defendant will be seeking. >> reporter: it's believe

trump supporters in iowa, and this is what's alarming is trump says it, he should be put to death ord now you got trump supporters in iowa telling nbc news that they agree with that statement. it only takes one person with a vicious motive and a gun in their hand and the decision to do something crazy to put into action trump's words. and you're starting to see it filter down from trump down through his supporters at his rallies to people who believe what he says. >> perfect transition to congressional investigations reporter for the "washington post" jackie alemany. we saw this with january 6th and it filtered down the same way and people ended up in washington, d.c. and they stormed the capitol. and many are serving time. >> yeah, mika, that's exactly right. but, nevertheless, this rhetoric has continued. that's why you have seen jack smith now ask again for a gag order on trump as really the past two weeks from threats to mark milley, mike pence, judge tanya chutkan, even attempts to buy a firearm in south carolina during a campaign visit which his campaign then issued a clarifica

to trump about. at any point in this process trump could weigh in and that changes the law, maybe everything. >> yeah trump is already been weighing in, cheering on the circus, burn it all down and shut the government down. i would not be surprised if he has a direct line to matt gaetz, and tells him to do the most incendiary device type of option. miles taylor is standing by to discuss that, plus more breaking news tonight, the nine year old girl who went missing on a family camping trip has been found alive. a suspect is in custody and we are expecting a news conference to begin any minute. to duckduckgo on all your devie duckduckgo comes with a built-n engine like google, but it's pi and doesn't spy on your searchs and duckduckgo lets you browse like chrome, but it blocks cooi and creepy ads that follow youa from google and other companie. and there's no catch. it's fre. we make money from ads, but they don't follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duc

the trump white house. letitia james claims that she had her own hand in the fraud, saying, quote, miss trump called misleading financial statements to be submitted to deutsche bank and the federal government. according to new york officials, as trump's -- fraudulent net worth to save him as much as 100 and $50 million on $400 million worth of deutsche bank loans. ivanka will also likely be asked -- historic old post office property in washington, which trump later converted into a luxury hotel. then, there's don junior and eric, who are still actually running the company to this day. both are his trustees and executive vice presidents. all three children not only have intimate knowledge of donald trump's allegedly shady business dealings, but they're also accused of actively participating in those allegedly shady dealings. it's no surprise that trump's been lashing out at judge arthur engoron and on his fail social media site. he spent the last -- any kind of accountability, running away from fines, or any

trump, he said, quote meet with mr. cohen and another lieutenant and direct them to reverse engineer the statements to reach his desire net worth, and returned to him once they did. the accusation prompted a full body scoff from mr. trump, who spent much of the testimony alternately fiddling with his phone and crossing his arms. mr. trump's skill was soon replaced by a blank expression as he frequently consulted with his lawyers. joining us now, adam klasfeld, senior legal correspondent for that messenger, he was in the courtroom for today's proceedings. tim o'brien, senior executive editor for bloomberg opinion and author of trump nation, host of the bloomberg podcast -- and an msnbc political analyst. thank you both for being here, adam, before we get into cohen's testimony today, tell us more about his, trump's demeanor in court. you are in the room with them. i gather things were pretty chilly between the two? >> that would be an accurate way of putting. it as you mentioned, jonathan, the first thing to really remem

he became pro-trump after being pro-trump prior to the election. he is somebody that the new york times and my colleagues reported a couple of years back that the presidency was part of this broader effort or habit of trump's, holding the presidency and his business and his own persona into one, so this gentleman, mr. pratte, was met at a state dinner in 2019. the president went to one of his factors and ohio, so there is this atmosphere where there is a sort of seamless rolling of things related to the white house, things related to government secrets and two aspects of trump's business. >> abc news also reports that the billionaire, the australian guy, want to talk more than a dozen other people, how difficult if not impossible to stop this game of telephone when sensitive info is out there? i can't remember if it was world war i or two when there were posters that the u.s. government put out that you loose lips, sink ships. this is a prime example. >> exactly right, anderson. i was thinking back in greek mythology, they had the bird rumor, and u

trumps real estate assets. everything from golf courses to hotels, to apartments, to the tune of $3500000000.00 in order to gain more favorable loan terms. now this isn't very much a crime, and that is why these allegations were brought forth by the attorney general's office. now last week, the judge in this case already made a ruling that trump was liable for falsifying or lying about his well on financial documents. so wires this trial going forward because there is still 6 other locations by the attorney general's office related to this case. and the potential of fraudulent business records and business dealings. how this is a civil not criminal case. and so there is no jury, it's just a judge that will make a ruling. this trial is expected to last several weeks and could go into december. so far it has had no effect on trump's popularity within the republican party. he is still leading the poles and the republican primary for the presidency, the united states, for inside story gabriel's on in new york. the

and every potentially violent trump not in america now knows that there is nothing donald trump can do to save them from going to prison. if they want to go to an american courthouse and go to war for donald trump. so there hasn't been a whiff of violence, or any unruly protest at any of the trump court appearances. and today, in manhattan, donald trump became just another guy from queens whose life took enough wrong turns for him to end up as a defendant in the manhattan courthouse. he is a civil defendant in this case charged with fraud by new york states attorney general. donald trump is obviously decided to attend the trial, not because of what happens in the courtroom, but so that he can dominate the media coverage of the trial by making statements outside of the courtroom before and after the court session, and during the recess breaks, donald trump did that relentlessly today. we will show you nothing of what he had to say in those statements, because they are filled with lies. lies about new york's attorney general, and the judge in the case, and what we will show you, the occa

of trump org.m looking forward to what happens when these adverse witnesses are called to testify by letitia james. >> how does it normally work -- how does this work? is this like a daily situation going forward? you talk about some of these witnesses, et cetera, that clearly they're not going to be pro-prosecution, but how is this going to work? is this going to be a daily thing, glenn? >> so jose, i will say having tried cases for 30 years, when we project how long a trial will last, we are almost always wrong, and that goes for the judges as well. you know, we try to give the parties and if it's a jury trial, which this isn't, the jurors a real, you know, estimate of how long everybody can expect to be in that courtroom. now, here is what i think is most likely to impact the length of the trial. tish james announced as many as 53 potential witnesses. trump's attorneys announced as much as 123 or 127 potential witnesses. here's what i can tell you, the defense teams almost always over estimate h

to inflate trump's net worth to whatever number mr. trump told us to. under cross-examination trump's lawyers pressing cohen about why he told congress in 2019 he couldn't recall trump directly ask him to artificially inflate his assets. trump calling the moment a win. >> he was caught lying. like nobody's ever lied. it was better than a perry mason moment. and that should be the end of the case. >> reporter: the two men hadn't seen each other in five years, in court they sat feet apart. cohen telling us he looked trump right in the eye. when you looked him in the eye, michael, what did you see? >> i saw a defeated man, i saw somebody who knows that it's the end of the trump organization. >> david: it was quite a day there. aaron, you were in the courtroom, that unexpected move the judge calling the former president to the witness stand. less than an hour later, trump suddenly getting up and leaving the courtroom in the middle of the proceedings, you saw this all? >> reporter: he stormed right out, david, it came after his lawyers had asked the judge to

he basically called trump a liar, insinuating trump was high under oath. what is your reaction to this? what is your take on the image? 6 >> unfortunately, i can't see the image, so i'm sorry i can't. i don't have a reverse showing here. but my take from what happened on the stand is you are correct, that the judge has not liked how trump has dealt with this trial, said very bluntly he doesn't find him credible. does that mean he finds him not credible in every instance? i don't know that that matters. trump is going to have to testify in this trial as a witness in the next two weeks. so the fact that this is going into his questioning with this level of rancor with the judge, it's just not helpful to him at a time when he's trying to save his company. >> all right. maggie, good talking with you. thank you so much, my friend. a very busy afternoon. we're live in tel aviv. a brand new speaker of the house was elected a few hours ago. republicans managing to get their ducks in a row, or whatever in a row. one of the first orders of business for the new speak

trump was audited.s no indication that an enforcement exercise ever took place against his companies. all this evidence, first reported by "the times," laid out in letitia james's work, al begin brag's work. why not ever a federal investigation into the trump organization? >> so, first, here is some data points. one, obviously, there is a huge difference between a civil case and a criminal case. and just because there is a civil case doesn't mean it's appropriate to bring a criminal case. it's just worth noting that, that you can -- one is just proof by a preponderance, more likely than not, 50%, the other would have to be if it was a criminal case, be, you know, proof beyond a reasonable doubt. that doesn't mean there shouldn't be an investigation, by the way. it's just worth noting that particular fact, that this this is a very different standard. second, as pete knows, the department of justice is not exactly the place where there are a lot of complicated, difficult, white collar investigations, part

trump on most references or mr. trump. he's really coloring in the lines. i say that because i think a lot of people watching know he has a bit of a temper and he can blast off on social media. we're seeing none of that. donald trump has been, for the most part, he's been watching the proceedings. he's been fitting. he's been on his phone a fair bit. even just before we came back from lunch, he was taking calls in court trying to hide the fact he was on a screen that we could see. it's been odd. there haven't been any outbursts or lashing out by either side. >> on his phone is how parents of tweens usually describe an unsupervised moment, but that's what the current gop front runner was seen doing. i want to press on something that i know is sensitive for michael cohen, but it's important about the prosecution's of donald trump in new york. the civil and criminal. michael cohen had the goods and james office, took the time to corroborate his account, something that mueller didn't seem to do with michael cohen. in the case of sdny determines that donald trum

donald trump, and abortion.get beyond those two issues, all the stuff that we are dealing with right now, this is going to be resolved sooner or later. but those are the two issues, and every one of those republican house members, most of them i should say, for those who aren't drinking the kool-aid. but those, they understand the liability that trump is to all of, them to their majorities. and particularly, to those in those swing districts and swing states. everyone knows it, and we -- scott sorry, >> well, i've never understood this expungement business. because, he was acquitted in both trials. he got impeached, and then he was acquitted, so he effectively won, on the question. >> it doesn't matter it happened in the first place he has to get rid of. it >> yeah, but how do you expunged for every article that was written about it, the history books, or every television show that we have ever done on? so you can't erase it from peoples memory, nor can you erase the fact that he was acquitted. so, i have never

trump. he also was talking about some valuations for two other golf courses, and he said that he came up with these valuations, which the state says are inflated, after being on the phone with trump. he is on the stand. and on tuesday, allen weiss, will begin his testimony. >> appreciate it. that is just one development in a cascade of news about trump's various legal troubles. remember, he is facing 91 criminal charges across four separate criminal investigations. now trump's lawyers are testing new tactics to try to get him out of some of his most egregious charges. the first one is a hail mary. trump will have to win the 2024 presidential election, assume office, and pardon himself, assuming that would be constitutional. and assuming it is, poof, absolved of federal charged. though, trump said it's, quote, very unlikely he would do that, if you take him at his word. second scenario, trump would have to not win the election. yesterday lawyers asked the judge to dismiss all of the criminal

trump. and i'm pleased that you talk to voters the absurdity of mr. trump returning to the capital. i hope you are right. i hope senator mccaskill is right. that it is an absurdity. but we must guard against. it never did we think that mr. trump would have sent his minions, his american citizens in search of attacking the institution of democracy. i do want to say something in contrast, and i hope you saw it this week. i couldn't be prouder to be a part of the democratic caucus. you saw us unified on the floor, in our committee work, and everywhere else, but on the floor, unified. and i talked to hakeem jeffries yesterday. i said hakeem, our unity has never been stronger in the five years i've been here. and i really thought about, what is that glue? and it is something he said in caucus, we are. say we have a unity of purpose. our purpose is our glue. it holds us together. we care about the american people. we care about doing better for the american people. that's why we passed a cr. they needed us. >> yes, you and your caucus have a political project that you're pursuing, and it

future of the trump organization. chris kise, his lead attorney, that future in so many ways is now in his hands. so for donald trump outside of being able to come and sit here in trial and hear from his attorney specifically defending him, there are no cameras that are streaming this line or recording this in realtime. for him, donald trump has gone through attorneys quite frequently in the past. he has led some to exit on their own accords and has fired other attorneys. notably in just the last year, except for chris kise, this is an important opportunity for him to watch his attorney go and present the case and see whether he's happy with the work of his own defense attorney. >> i want to bring in msnbc legal analyst lisa rubin who has joined susanne. give us your impressions of what you saw today. what is legally significant and what is the mood inside that courthouse? >> -- notably after his florida indictment and at his arraignment. there is a lot of excitement in the courtroom and a lot of folks in that courtro

may be pre-trump. there was a talk in washington things could go back to normal therefore years every day of nuclear war with north korea. finally things could be normal again. having covered washington this is not normal go back to normal. biden failed it normal is not a reality. i spent time trying to figure out what the new normal was. how things worked. i found a city that was very broken. people were still trying to figure out what strategies made sense they're making big bets both figuratively on where things were and trump's influence was kind of everywhere. it is not a city that is trumps city but it reflects it in a lot of ways bricks jonathan you mentioned the biden bridge. there were discussions recently port reported on in your column about conversations that are still happening about whether is somebody in the party will step up and challenge him. >> the great reveal about modern politics today is a lot of senior officials in both parties are living a very different versioner went public v

when he's in the courtroom, he's not president trump. he's defendant donald trump.he rules apply to him like they would to anyone else. >> i think you're right about that. the world is indeed watching. thank you both. >> thanks, abby. >>> president biden is building more border wall. the administration cannot get its story straight about why. i'll speak to a democrat who's not very happy about this. >>> plus, ominous news tonight for the embattled congressman george santos, who is under investigation. >>> the border wall became one of the most hotly contested issues in the 2020 election. now tonight president biden and his administration are tying themselves into knots to explain why they're going to keep building it. >> there will not be another foot of wall constructed in my administration. >> the money was appropriate for the border wall. i tried to get them to redirect that money. they didn't. they wouldn't. in the meantime, there's nothing under law other than they have to use the money for what it was appropriated for. i can't stop that. >> the biden administr

and the trump organization.they're not forthcoming in their testimony, you know, when you have a witness on direct, you have to ask them who, what, when, where, why kinds of questions. you can't lead them to the answer that you want. but if the witnesses aren't forthcoming, then james can ask for permission to treat them as hostile witnesses. she will almost certainly have to do that here. and she can ask them more pointed questions, questions that really divulge the information she's interested in. isn't it true that you were present when this conversation occurred? that sort of a thing. and so very quickly, these witnesses get to the point where they have to decide whether they'll be forthcoming and tell the truth, whether they will try to dissemble and plead a failure of memory, or whether they'll go ahead and assert the fifth amendment, which of course, is dangerous in a civil case because it means in this case justice engoron will be able to draw adverse infrenchss from asserting the fifth. >> yeah, and giv

against donald trump.co case as well as cooperating flipped witness. we're joined by former sdny chief david kelly. i mentioned to viewers earlier in the hour there was a lot going on. this is a huge story, even amidst the middle east war, the speaker's race, "the new york times," "washington post," "wall street journal" all these outlets covering this as well. your view as a prosecutor, how you use a witness like this and specifically how you address something i mentioned or raised in the setup to this segment that there are times someone can be technically truthful but not as useful as a cooperating witness? >> when you first was going to come on i was excited about the possibility of injecting into our discussions some talk of hip-hop, which i know you like to do. maya, by mentioning "hamilton", trumped me, so to speak. but if i'm going to answer your question, i'll draw right from "hamilton." in that song "the room where it happened", one of the key lines is, where the sausage is being made. this is ho