and he hires a man with an abacus, and when the abacus keeping track sees that he's given away more gold than he is in storage, he says, stop. you see? or my mother, who used to look at my checkbook, when she saw that, in fact, i had written more checks than i had in the account, she would grab it. stop. you see? so what is it here that's less abstract that the computer says, stop? >> it is -- >> how is that less abstract than king tut, if we had the same thing with a grain elevator, if we had the same thing with a reservoir of water, if we had the same thing with my checkbook? you see the point. >> i do see the point, justice breyer, and it seems to me that it goes to the question of the methodology you're going to employ. >> methodology is just that you said, stop. >> well, we could -- >> so what we have different here is the computer stops rather than the abacus man stopping or my mother stopping or the guy that the grain elevator has that says stop. so just saying, what is that it? in other words, if you say, computer stop, you have an invention. useful add but if you say, mother sto

charges including mortgage fraud, securities fraud, and conspiracy as well as the indictments of abacus federal savings bank from a federally chartered bank that is been catering to the chinese immigrant community since 1984. these defendants, the bank, and former employees and managers from its lone department, are charged with engaging in a systematic scheme to falsify and fabricate loan applications to the federal national mortgage association commonly known as fannie mae. so that borrowers who would otherwise not legally qualified for the fannie mae mortgages, could obtain them unlawfully. this is a large-scale mortgage fraud case that we estimate to include hundreds of millions of dollars worth of falsified loan applications. if we have learned anything from the recent mortgage crisis, it is that at some point, these schemes unravel and taxpayers

sec would come to a firm like goldman sachs and say we are going to prosecute you for a violation, abacust if you agree to pay a certain amount of money, we are not going to prosecute you for a bunch of similar infractions. did you see that happen? >> well, by the time the settlement with goldman was reached, i had been pretty much invited off the case, so i did not participate in any of those discussions. --n goldman did announce its rather when the sec announced its $550 million settlement was goldman for what actually a $1 billion fraud in my view and in the sec's view, the commission also or i believe the division director announced a dozen orl, half more investigations of goldman sachs were going to be closed .ecause they lead to no action they could not find any actionable conduct. sachs, andoldman goldman sachs, let's concede, is a pretty smart organization, i think i would have difficulty persuading my board of directors, if i were the chairman, to accept the $550 million settlement and not be able to give reasonable assurances that goldman sachs was no longer going to be under th

there is something called abacus that i can show everybody. melissa: oh, my goodness. >> to be serious about this i am partially serious about the goldman sachs because there is culture there taking advantage of clients which may or may not skew job applicants but what is scary about this economy, how slow it has been for the average person, the recovery has been. this is, i remember, old enough to remember when ronald reagan left office, the left-wing-media went at him tooth and nail how the rich got richer and poor got poorer and middle class caught in the middle. that is the obama economic recovery post-2009. he would say because of the fincial cris. i would say and i bet you peter would say this as well, if you heap this much destimulative fiscal policy, obamacare taxes businesses won't hire as fast. melissa: michelle this, also speaks to how unpopular it has become to work on wall street. after the financial crisis fewer people want to go out to work for big banks. i hear this all the time, the young, really smart kid getting out of schoo

are we going back to the abacus and pen and paper? early in life? >> in life. for you. >> cnbc's brian sullivan. thanks so much. >>> up next, nbc's kate snow joins us with a must-see report on america's heroin epidemic. it truly is. it is a fantastic report. morning he joe next. the tools ♪ ♪ to do it my way ♪ i got a lock on equities ♪ that's why i'm type e ♪ ♪ that's why i'm tyyyyype eeeee, ♪ ♪ i can do it all from my mobile phone ♪ ♪ that's why i'm tyyyyype eeeee, ♪ ♪ if i need some help i'm not alone ♪ ♪ we're all tyyyyype eeeee, ♪ ♪ we've got a place that we call home ♪ ♪ we're all type e ♪ a man who doesn't stand still. but jim has afib, atrial fibrillation, an irregular heartbeat not caused by a heart valve problem. that puts jim at a greater risk of stroke. for years, jim's medicine tied him to a monthly trip to the clinic to get his blood tested. but now, with once-a-day xarelto jim's on the move. jim's doctor recommended xarelto. like warfarin, xarelto is proven effective to reduce afib-related stroke risk. but xarelto is th