abdullah abdullah who ran against karzai. he serve for five years as foreign minister. this is part how far our continuing series about afghanistan and america's war there. i'm please to do have dr. abdullah abdullah back on this broadcast. welcome. >> thank you. thank you charlie. >> charlie: tell me how you see afghanistan today. >> in terms of karzai government in itself has turned into a problem rather than being part of the solution. that's i think the main challenge for the people of afghanistan, as well as friends of afghanistan, the ternational community through the united states. it is now because he it's part of the problems. in terms of the transition and transition of security responsibilities through the afghan side, it will be difficult to envision that the transition will take place is going to take place timely. negotiations with the taliban and consolation, that in itself has not been defined by anybody -- everybody is talking about it and nobody has worked out how it works in real term in a situation where taliban are thinking of bringing the state down and the state institutions rather than getting ready to be accommodated. >> charlie: so your recommendation to the unit

abdullah abdullah on my left on his afghanistan and had a major opposition group called the coalition of change of scope and i know many of you know a longtime investor to washington went back a couple of years ago and is now the founding dean of the school of local affairs and public policy at american university of cairo. the national security adviser to the president of turkey and also quite a scholar in islamic studies, and [inaudible] when i just say? excuse me, from iraq and a prominent member of parliament so let me begin and i think i will begin with abraham kalin asking all of you to weigh in on this is their something special with distinctive about democracy in the muslim world? >> yes and no people in the muslim world don't have to reinvent the wheel for the fair and just political system that would recognize and implement the principles of human dignity just as the quality these are some universal principles that are shared across the board. but in circumstances the principals will be implemented obviously to display certain varieties and certain differences. summer huntington wrote the famous arbuckle which he turned into a book leader, clash of civilizations. some he made about the state of democracy in the muslim country is there. they're interesting and in my view at the time i had to do something about it also were based on misguided diagnosis if i may say so and he said something like the fact you have a lack of institutions of democracy muslim countries show that there is no culture of democracy and hard to move from that to the conclusion is indicative of the kind of thinking he was representing and for the muslim countries, the arab countries some of them didn't of the institutions of democracy that developed in the western hemisphere but that doesn't mean necessarily there was no culture of democracy were there was no culture of the consultation, no culture of social networking. they were never visible, they were never part of the social political rhetoric of the society because they were considered to be under authoritarian regime so must become most of the culture of democracy is to go in a kind of clandestine way instead of becoming a defining element of the society. and i think we realize now after what happened in tunisia and egypt it's clear that the debate has been there all along. they were just waiting for that moment to kind of, you know, spring forward and showed the world and they do have the culture, the philosophy, the understanding and the perception of what the space society representative society should be like. and the institutions will be established along away but it's never one time project commits a work in progress given the most advanced countries of the west you always have to work on the system. >> let me follow-up with you for a minute. in designing the democracy and building at is their something special of what is billed as opposed to say a western model and there's no one western model as you know what is their something distinctive about the muslim world? >> again, yes and no. i'm not dodging the question but i am just trolleying to point to a multiple by mention of the debate. in a sense, yes, there is something in the genius of the culture of the islamic tradition and one has to take that into account to understand the dynamic in the muslim countries. for instance the way that the maternity develops in the 18th and 19th centuries callis always had difficulties with the historical religious ethical cultural norms and values of the muslim societies that set entire religious, and religion type of secularism for example, radical form of enlightenment type of secularism has always considered religion to be a threat to democracy to the development come to the social cohesion and stability in the 19th century and the founders and the 19th century and early 20th century believed in some of this idea can you come along way in the multiple maternity wear no single actor can define what modernity is. but more importantly move from the stage of the classical modernization to the globalization. classical modernization had a well-defined model and everything was kind of designed in western europe the ideas were there, the ideas of the french revolution individualism, secularism, nation states and other key founding ideas have enlightened the am i to medical position has changed but completely it's not working inaudible directions and from the is contributing to that process. it's not a single trajectory. different ideas. it's not surprising to see people using the so-called social media. but some people in a rather oriental listed away look up to the fact egyptians know how to use facebook. [laughter] what was surprising about that? the have been way ahead of the curve in fact in some of the areas. >> there is something special will about the democracy, should there be? >> i would say that in flux perception about the muslim world in the west there is something specific and it's moved and shifted with the event in the middle east and also in the islamic world countries like malaysia and indonesia. >> that perception has shifted and coming to my country [inaudible] so it's not in the air ability islamic world, afghanistan doesn't work. that is the perception which is changing today, and there isn't anything inherent in the islamic world bill would prevent a population to achieve, and so referring to egypt in the square , but i was watching tdo, cnn and bbc and others when people were starting to pay the time there was an analysis attached to that that perhaps this is this islamic radical so they don't want democracy and so on and so forth, so that is the perception. and also in this perception is by the leaders, democratic leaders, to communicate with their friends in the west, their supporters in the west that the issues for us to deal with it because you don't know about the complications. it's our job and we know how best to deal with it, and then of course avoiding any move towards the democratization. so the combination of the two is the perception but nevertheless when we are talking of a liberal democracy, the role of islam and its teachings which in its tenants and the spirit if you are talking about justice, if you are talking about togetherness, honesty towards equality, and peaceful coexistence and accountability of the government, so you don't see any problem there but then there are cultural aspects of it which there are intends to copy of the liberal world and the muslim world. which would be the reaction. >> ambassador fahmy, how do you see this as you embark on this project? >> well, i actually don't. i disagree with the question. i don't really see why democracy is different light would be the scene through the muslim world because if you look to the basic principles value-added you want to achieve when they would be shared in the muslim world or outside the muslim world, how we achieve them even in the muslim world will be a function of each one of our own realities of culture. so yes, i would argue that religion is an important component in the value that we have, but again, christianity and juadism to look at your interpretation the of increased democracy. it's the misinterpretation of religion that ends up giving the wrong impression and you can quote from all three of the sacred books provisions which would be anti-democratic if taken out of context which are taken of the larger context. so i just find this idea miller is it possible in the muslim world or not from those of side rather than anything on the empirical evidence that is tested in the muslim world or even as a unified perception of democracy in the muslim world. >> let me hear from mr. mr. [inaudible] is their something different about the western model versus the model of the world and you don't seek the need to think so, you think every country is particular and whether they are muslim or mostly christian is part of the detail but let me ask how do you see this, you were right at the beginning anyway, too. >> in the last seven years it was indicative decade of shame and then immediately we switched to words one the space process so people were not really ready for this, so we have to tell people for the democracy, for the culture that in the democracy needs to have a strong civil society. we need to build institutions, we need to build trust between the people and and the government come and our experience - we have an election where the government has the power and the marginalized new so this is not a real space process. >> so a zero sum thinking that it's a chance to control and people who were about one see that we, too. >> it gets in the power, so you will not accept that either. he came to the power of democracy will so we don't accept that power-sharing and the other to participate with him and this is the principal of the democracy we have to accept the other of the power-sharing and the country will not killed by one and the culture and democracy in the arab world and the muslim-led we are not ready for this culture now. >> not ready in the muslim world? >> perhaps it is a good idea to explain why we disagree. >> with the defense in the arab world happening now and the new arab supreme is not lowering everywhere the two misperceptions that have shaped the understanding of a lot of people in the western part of the world about the arab world have come to the floor. one is the use centralism and let me explain what i mean by these. orientalism is what you just said it's not ready for democracy, they tend to -- >> i just want to point out what was said. i'm just rephrasing the question. >> i'm not referring to you but that is the mind set between the thinking which is still out there because you see my concern is the revolution in tunisia and egypt happened so quickly now people want to see results as quickly now, this state in egypt in the timber i think it would have the general election of the presidential election and tunisian has announced a timetable yet but they will probably have elections in the fall as well and people like to see immediate outcome the immediate transition to a full, fully functioning democracy they would consider this first election as a transitional period. first will not bring instant democracy to this country because after three or four decades of civil it's not easy to transform this political structure to democracy overnight. you will need more political formation and parties and balances of power and a lot of hustle and different political groups. that needs to -- that is an experienced people need to have, but what i mean by orientalism is that for some reason the arab world, the muslim world who isn't really for dhaka see because the starkly there is a tribal ties, mentality etc., it doesn't really allow them to have a fully functioning democracy. i think we have seen very clearly prevented the development of the space institutions and most of the muslim and arab country over the last half a century or so. it wasn't the demand of the people it wasn't the culture over the last three or four decades the forces of democracy, opposition have come from all kinds of different corners of the societies including the so-called islamists in the arab world and other places. .. spreads to the rest of the world. you have a long history of the of islamic civilization but it was only a long footnote to what the greeks had produced and it was picked up again. so it is a narrative that is still permeating our conceptions about as i said culture, history etc.. that needs to change from our textbooks to the way the design, our policies, our projects, our partnerships and that we have to acknowledge the fact that there are other equal partners around the world and they will have to respect this on equal footing. >> i want to try to focus this, take the west out of it if we can for a little bit. let me just ask ambassador fahmy. everyone talks about the turkey model. is there a turkey model and what do you think egypt, what do you think that is and what do you think egypt would want to emulate or draw from lessons from that and what not perhaps to have? >> it depends on which phase of the turkey model we are talking about. the turkey model evolved over the years and maturity. but it also went through some difficult steps as they evolve into a full democracy where they accepted the different points of view. including for example where exactly or how do you exercise the religious parties. there is also always reference when you talk about the turkey model of the role of the military and safeguarding the estate or the tenets of the state. that serves turkey well. if i look at where i would like to see egypt moving, frankly, we will have to define a role of religion in politics. >> the role of what? >> religion and politics. that we are comfortable with, and it will be somewhere to the left or to the right of the turkish model. what i would like to see, frankly, i would like to see in egypt that when we set this up and exercise it up early, and agree with -- simply establishing the institution is not enough to exercise them once or twice to prove this is working. i don't want to have the role of the military. i don't want to institutionalize that role. i want them to go back to the barracks and play the role as a special army. and only resorting to in real circumstances where likely had recently, they were in the barracks. they were asked by the population to come out. they didn't come out and say we are going to leave his role to be the link between past and the future. so i would not want to see that as part of the future, but i respect the turkish model as it evolves. the experience we should learn from consequentially gaining from parts of it in trying to not repeat other parts of it. >> you think there is a tricky model and what does it mean? >> i would say that in terms of the model, there is a lot to learn from every democracy in the muslim world, including from turkey. which has been successful in sanctioning the democracy going through evolution as ambassador fahmy mentioned. first of all, there are lessons for the west as well. i will get into the lessons. >> i'm sorry. i'm just having a bad night. go ahead. i know i have interviewed you. go ahead. >> in afghanistan, we started out on the right foot to begin with in 2011. in the agreement, which was signed between different groups, it was anticipated that we have a constitution at certain times, timetables. we have presidential elections. we have parliamentary elections but at the same time, where we are today, it means that we are damaging that foundation, that shaky foundation that we have laid at the beginning because the leadership doesn't believe in democracy. so there is one lesson for all of the muslim world and non- muslim world that in the first phases of nation-building and the state-building, when the leader or leaders of that country do not believe in the principles and values of democracy artificially it will be difficult. ever else today, even the leaders believe in reform and progress and they are not looking forward to digging into their own ideas. they have started talking about afghanistan and unfortunately there is a sort of a reverse so that is the unfortunate situation in our country. looking into the modern, turkish model, the ruling party before the cabinet to power, what they were doing, they started with -- apart from their political ideas which is deliver your services to the people in a lot more grassroots work and they found their place among the society in the grassroots and that of course their leadership also evolved in the course of time, and then they found their place among the society. what could be learned from the situation in egypt and elsewhere, that is also very telling. in the same way that democratic forces evolved in egypt. they didn't jump into the -- as there was an opportunity, so they saw the change. they were witness to the change and they adopted themselves -- adapted themselves. taking into account the transitions and circumstances of the country and the nation and diversity of societies which one can learn from different models. >> mr. tayfour how do you feel about this, about the turkish model? >> i think the turkish model, this model of democracy in the region and the turkish want to improve. we know that in turkey, now the islamic run the country, but they are a combination of modern islam, not like what we have in iran or other countries. in turkey, they conflict on how to improve their economy. they conflict on how to build their country. their military are independent. they don't interfere in their politics. only to protect their constitution and to keep their country unified to defend their nation, and the other countries we find the military -- they defend their political party of their president or of their prime minister. so, the turkish model i think, if we can do it, for example in iraq it will be a very good model for us. >> led me get to the issue of the role of islam in building democracy. is something secretary clinton said last night about how important inclusion is and i am paraphrasing her here, but that really you can't have a functioning democracy without including, and she was talking about women in different minorities, but she seems to be also talking about different groups within the muslim majority. is she right? dr. kalin is she right about that and if so, can that the war at least with some strains of thinking within the more conservative religious community about to what degree the state should be involved in enforcing a kind of are there religious code within the law or more, kind of conformity? >> the question of pearlism and including different points of view in the political process have been part and parcel of the muslim tradition if you look at the muslim tradition as it has evolved from the eighth and ninth century to the modern period. but it has obviously displayed different qualities and at different times. but some of this basic quality, basic principles of democracy including plural democracy that we are talking about have been enshrined also in islamic tradition. the islamic tradition. these values that you know are other panelists mentioned, rule of law, transparency, accountability, justice, these are not alien to the islamic tradition. when you talk about this and arabic and turkish and persian, they immediately resonate with a much deeper and longer historical and religious connotation. for example, putting in checks and balances in the system. who controls the rulers? and being fair and just in your action. when you have power how do you exercise that power? who are you responsible to in the exercise of that power all the way from gods to your fellow citizens etc.. you know they are part and parcel of the islamic tradition that their religious theological level. and the spirit of cosmopolitan islam if i may use such a term has been lost in the modern period starting from the 19th century because modernity. >> what do you mean by cosmopolitan islam? >> cosmopolitan is that inclusive vision of islam that does not see different threats, that considers diversity as a blessing from god and the sayings of the profits and has been repeated by many scholars and have been developed. even if you look at some of the key texts of the islamic political history for example, his model of a virtuous society. it talks about this, how the different communities, religious and political and social communities etc. come together to establish this virtuous society. the main point is not about the state. it is about the society. is not about grabbing power from the state. it is really educating, training, empowering a society that will have the values of virtue, respect, inclusion and diversity. and that spirit unfortunately has been lost. under the heading pressure of 19th century experience that islam has, vis-À-vis the western route because modernity most of the time the 19th century came to the muslim world coupled with european colonialism. and people reacted to it immediately. the legacy of colonialism or the memory of colonialism has remained wary strong in the background of the muslim community and the people in the west tend to forget that. for them, european colonialism ended in 1914 or 1918 by continued in fact for some it still continues in the case of the palestine issue. >> if anyone of you want to jump in and just a moment just go like that. >> what i wanted to say was, for any religion, if we interpret their religion in an exclusive fashion at the expense of othern will not be a democratic interpretation. it is consistent with what we all want to achieve as democratic nations. but it is not because one says that we are a muslim nation or a christian nation or a jewish nation that we have been unfairly democratic. >> every religion has that strain in it. >> i should take you back to the egyptian experience. first of all we actually had a -- before the revolution but it was not all the people. it was to be and sedition democratic at all the way back to the 1920s, we had a constitution which actually had preference that islam was originally a state which was much longer than the constitution in 1971. but that constitution in the 20s was much longer in terms of the liberal value and democratic values than the 150 years later. so while the language about religion was stronger, it was not inclusive. at the same time the constitution was providing equal rights for everybody in the country whether they were muslim or not. so we have to be careful. is not the muslim world or democracy. it is do we have democratic value? are reapplying them are not? ice firmly believe it is not about religion it is how we interpret religion. >> will but what about this question about inclusion and diversity nurses a kind of exclusivity? i mean what are the challenges and a the task are there of you two cosmopolitan but does not see diversity is a threat? what are the challenges to that and how do you overcome them? speeding when it is let's say involved in daily politics or politics of a country and when the leaders of a country play politics rather than show leadership, then of course they see it in their interest to use these differences in order to strengthen their power base. that is their perception, but that is exactly the way to weaken the real power base which is if you are considering the people as a social power. so it is unfair that we lose sight of the richness which is and they diversity, and that is the for the political leaders sometimes to use it in their favor as they see it, as they calculate it while they are using it, but meanwhile, what they are losing is the trust of the people and the trust of the nation over such politics and such gains. >> this discussion is getting too serious. >> a little levity? >> i want to tell a joke that will maybe shed some light on some of the dynamics in the islamic tradition. sometimes people have this perception that since islam is a monotheistic religion its policy, the politics is also monotheistic meaning it turns easily into monotheistic politics and everything revolves around the idea of unity of god and therefore respond to politics is bound to be monolithic. we have seen this kind of reading of the islamic tradition. it is funny, i mean it couldn't be far from the truth. if you look at the islamic experience, the experience of islamic society with diversity and pluralism it has been remarkable. in egypt and iraq and many other places, it was the critical -- in the tenth and 11th centuries. some of the greatest scholars translators, scientists were muslim, christian and jewish and they really created this cosmopolitan culture there together in afghanistan and many other parts of the muslim world. but what is funny is that according to the story, muslims of india one-day meet christian missionaries and after some conversations with them they say well you know we support your work in india. suddenly they say how can muslim support christian missionaries in india? no, no, no you are doing a wonderful job and we encourage you to continue work in india and one day they ask, why? well you know you are trying to, you are working in indian society where there are billions of gods and they were trying to bring them from 1 million to three. from three-to-one is easier. [laughter] of course in the daily lives of people it works in a different way, but the point is that the muslim world needs to recover that spirit of cosmopolitan islam and i think you are saying, you are seeing some good signs across the muslim world. >> do you agree that is an essential ingredient in building a functioning democracy? >> i think the diversity, they use it properly, it is a very good enrichment for society. in our country, sometimes they use this diversity and minority to abuse the system. so, we see in some countries they have brought some minorities to their power. they give them power and then they marginalize their majority to protect their president or the government. >> can you give us an example of what you are speaking of? >> the there are many examples. i don't want to mention examples but what we have in iraq. >> this is off the record, isn't it? >> democracy. >> but what we have in iraq for example, we have i think 14 minorities and religions. all the people are integrated and involved in the politics. but, there is some marginalization, some dynamic of democracy in the name of the new system so they don't give them the real world to participate in the power, to build a country. so this is the abuse of the democracy for the minority's. >> what about the inclusion of women? that was another one of her major points last night, that really in this global economic times in which we live, you cannot have a successful, robust democracy without economic growth and he you really can't have that by 50% of your population being not fully educated and if they wish to, fully engaged professionally. do you think she is right, or is that kind of a western value? >> i think she is right, but how to achieve it, that is what depends on the conditions of each country. and you cannot expect every country to act in the same pace, but didn't deny this as a principle, to reject this as a principle, it will be wrong from its foundation. unfortunately, that i think in the third world and in the muslim world -- we are all lagging behind and whatever the type of regime. the women's participation in political life in the society, education and every field of life. we are lagging behind. we are falling behind where we ought to be and this should be considered as one of the reasons for the backwardness and not utilizing the potentials which are there. and there is no doubt that there are many types of approaches toward this. one is the artificial. just only in order to -- some regimes resort to this on order to please, they do a few token things as a symbol of women's rights, while masses of women population especially in rural asia, they live as they live and nothing changes in their lives. so a sort of indigenous effort in empowering women and giving them the opportunities and providing the opportunities and bringing women together and aching them part of that engine of change in this society. that is the fundamental ingredient for development in any country, muslim and non-muslim. >> but it can be a struggle in some more conservative societies, candid? >> absolutely. absolutely. it will be faced with resistance from the religious conservative corners. the traditionalists will use it as a tool against any type of drug rest. and without going on too long in this respect, i read one of the letters from the king of afghanistan in the 1920s, and his problem of opening a school in kandahar is more or less the same as today's government in afghanistan, of keeping a school open in kandahar. so you see, how difficult bringing these changes are and how slow the pace of change has been in some parts of the world. >> mr. tayfour what about in iraq? when i was there i was struck as a first timer by how different different parts of the country feel. i think that most americans would be surprised. i mean if you are up in baghdad or ramadi it is one thing and if you are in najaf it is quite a different feel, including the role of women, the participation of women. why do you think that is really an important battle to be fought now? secretary clinton seems to be saying it is, or not? let's just leave it at that. to you and if so how do you do any of different regions in the country who clearly see it very differently? >> the women in iraq, they are suffering too much and the new iraq now we have women for example in the parliament. they have 25% from the parliament for the women. but unfortunately, they don't have a role in the government. the political leader, they don't give them any real role to play in iraq. >> the token as dr. bellow was speaking of. >> this is the marginalization for almost 55 persons from the people in iraq. why? because political process in iraq are not mature yet. they don't recognize the capacity of the women. they don't recognize the partnership, so i think when i say we are not ready for democracy because in the end, they go back to what they want to do, not on the democratic way. we find for example in iraq, there is one political -- they win the election but they form the government so what is the democracy? if we believe the democratic russ is we have to respect the results of the election. so we find one group wins the election but the other group, because they have the power, they have the tools, they stop them to form the government and there was no one from their congressional community saying this is not acceptable. you have to respect the democracy. >> hard to believe that we are getting close in one way. i want to go to the topic of what the west can do to help but in while people ask -- i will tell you what. let's go to questions from minute. go ahead. right here in the microphone will follow you. if you could state your name and who you are with and then i've been urged to say i am sure you have something on to say that please phrase it as a question. >> okay. i would like to ask first dr. kalin and if anyone else would like to jump in. even though the panelists touched on the role of religion in the muslim countries, i want to press on secularism first and mr. kalin how vital is secularism for your administration going forward? and second, if you are a religious scholar, you have studied the culture in this perspective. how do you think that secularism is compatible with islam in general? i know this is a long question that you may be able to break up a little bit because he not the beginning of islam there was no secularism and that makes a big difference when you compare it with this. the last one is, we talk about turkey's role. again in the same context in secularism how do you think secularism would be part of this turkish role, if not now, going forward how realistic is it to take this secularism part of it? >> thank you. what i think i'm going to do is we did before us have two or three questions and then have the panelists answer, so the gentle and right behind you. yes, the gentleman behind you. >> yes, good afternoon. my name is yusuf. >> and you are from? >> i'm a native washingtonian. >> no, no are you just hear on your own? >> yes. >> i'm sorry. >> the muslim community. >> icy, thank you. >> basically speaking in the context of the cosmopolitan islam or minority groups, speaking of a minority group, as a voice representing about 50% of the muslim population in america, which is the black american muslims, and also a native of washington d.c. here in the washington d.c. area, how do we, the u.s., speaking of the u.s. islamic relations, how do we as the u.s. reconcile sending a message of freedom, justice throughout not just libya but the muslim world in general, and not have voting rights here in the washington d.c. area? among the citizens of washington d.c.? thank you. >> thank you. [applause] do we have a third question to go in this round? this young man right here. and then you walk in kind of pick and choose. >> hi, i am a student at american university, a volunteer here. my question goes to anyone on the panel and it comes to the issue of cosmopolitan islam. with the distinguished gentleman on the board be willing to humor the idea that the problem is not so much in modernizing islam so much as organizing the way that we look at islam. for instance i remember the gentleman over here nabil fahmy brought forward the idea that in the west, the way we developed democracy with secularism, that was separate from the states but i would make the argument that it actually wasn't. was simply revolution in the way we look to god. c. without the writings of jefferson and everyone and these constant allusions to natural law. they simply changed the idea. so i would say, with the people on the board agreed that the idea and the problem is that the way that we look at islam is something centered and the culture of the middle east, where whereas they mean just for instant on this board, we have no one from the four largest muslim populations in the world, india, bangladesh, pakistan and indonesia. this is a board centered in the culture of the middle east and like imam faisal road from the ground zero is lawmaker center said at american university just a few months ago the problem now today is that muslims worship islam over worshiping god. >> there is a lot in those questions, and who would like to go first? speier response to the first question about secularism, there are two meanings or definitions of secularism. one is what you might call institutional, secularism or procedural secularism and the other one is the kind of substantial secularism is a worldview, as a way of life. in the first case, separating the institutions of religion from the institutional politics and protecting their rights, the religious rights of all groups or nonreligious writes about rubes and keeping the state an equal distance from all belief, that is the definition of secularism that has been widely accepted in various muslim countries and also in the anglo-american form of secularism. whereas secularism is a worldview, as an ideology, as an identity, that is also something people can choose freely, obviously for themselves. the trouble or the problem is, when a state against a lamppost at ideology upon its citizens in the name of modernity, in the name of development, in the name of national unity, in the name of national security as it happened in our country in turkey for many years. secularism was used as a smokescreen for a number of other things. when things didn't go well, when those in power didn't run the state well. they just simply failed in delivering services to the people etc.. they immediately raised the flag of oka secularism is the most important value we have etc.. that's fine, let's have a discussion about secularism but when he were failing to run a country and you were failing to respond to the demands of the people, when you keep plodding a military coup one after another in the name of again protecting secular democracy in turkey, then i think now it is happening over the last decade or so so people began to question the credentials of your claims about detecting secularism. in the case of turkey, from now on, how that will work out in turkish democracy. i think for turkey and turkish society is a process of maturity or maturing as a whole with the values of diversity and cosmopolitan islam. for examples in the things we consider to be taboo for many years and turkey, non-muslim minorities and women's rights and human rights etc., now we have a very free, vibrant, open debate about these issues. if you look at his who is really opposing these debates, who is supposed for examples to giving more religious rights to religious minorities in turkey were to recognizing the rights of the kurds to practice their culture or similar issues, it is not a conservative religious communities of turkey. it is a new breed of nationalism that has emerged in turkey, which very much allies itself with the establishment and turkey and they are opposed not only to this but to turkey's new membership and a number of other initiatives which make turkey in fact an attractive model or example. and it regards to washington voting rights i fully support you, my brother. >> let me quickly address a couple of the points. first of all, i wouldn't waste much time on the discussion of secularism and democracy in the middle east or if you want, the muslim world. i say this because it is not again about islam. let's take israel. everybody is saying it is the first or the only democracy in the middle east. it is not secular. and if you try to take the definition of secularism as applied in your comment is not going to be applied anywhere in the middle east and north africa at least anytime soon because of the very important role of religion in our society. that is not the problem. the problem is our problem. we need to, as muslims, need to continue to revisit our religion and continue to interpret our religion they fully in a macroperspective looking toward the future. there is a question about whether the problem was how you look at us and whether or not. first of all there's a problem about how you look at us. two quick examples. you keep talking about arab springs. talk about arab summers. springs are short and if you want to see if you need a much longer period of time. so that is just one example. the other example is the idea that women throughout the arab world or the muslim world can play a prominent role. you mentioned -- you haven't had one in america but you have had fun and large countries. it hasn't happened in my country, at least not in contemporary history. so these problem exist in different parts of the muslim world. but it is not really only a function of a faith. muslim countries will interpret their faith more liberally in certain areas than in others because of the history around their own culture. so, yes, think muslim women should be given more rights. women in egypt got their voting rights before switzerland but without a doubt they have had a lot of rights curtailed in the second half of the first century and we are trying to give them back to them. we as muslims have to rethink our own religion and a more progressive sense. >> is anyone else dying to jump in here or do we have another question? we have two other questions. we are approaching the red zone here on my clock. there to people right at this table i think. if you would just keep your hands up. thank you. >> i was somewhat surprised. >> state your name. >> steven coll university of maryland program on international policy attitudes. i was somewhat surprised by the sense of a kind of persistence to the idea that there is something unique about islam and democracy or as an islamic form of democracy. there are in numerous constitutions, there is reference to sharia as the basis of law and while in a purely liberal democracy, the will of the people is entirely the source of law. there is no question that in the islamic world there is very strong interest in the notion of the will of the people as a basis for law as well. and i think there is an impression there is tension between these ideas of sharia as a basis of law which doesn't mean that they are incompatible but there is a process that is going on and to say that there is no difference when it really spells out quite clearly in the constitution that there is something unique here about the way democracy plays out in an islamic context. so i'm just curious why you sort of deflect that as a proposition rather than sort of embracing it as something that is actually going on as a process in the societies? >> a great question. >> salam with the muslim public affairs council. i think also there are so many issues that have no consensus in the muslim world. for example there is no consensus on what an islamic state is. i mean if you go to iran it is one version. it is a form of a theocracy that even as one of our panelists said, if you look at more the cosmopolitan aspects of islam whereas i would call it religious pluralism within islam, the religious pluralist and iran are against the theocrat in iran, so there is an internal struggle over what the definition of us an islamic state is an definitely if you go to pakistan and saudi arabia in so many other countries that claim to be an islamic republic or an islamic state there is no consensus on what that means. so adding onto my colleagues question, there is a lot more to be involved in the discourse i think, and so how do we get to the point where we heed the will of the people and when i say we, not only the rulers in the middle east but we here in the west as the primary factor for what kind of governance that people want? and i think if we approach it that way, then that will meet the goals of the people. it will fulfill these religious obligations because as was stated before, the islamic legacy is one of egalitarianism, of shura which means consultation itch means literally it means voting and so many other things. and then finally, you know the whole premise of whether we can have democracy in the muslim world is so artificial because the alternative is, does that mean that islam accepts dictatorship when in fact dictatorships have the strongest opposition from islamic groups? so how do we get to understanding the region from the west and it leads to the final point, do you believe then that president obama and his administration is navigating through this political minefield effectively in dealing with all these issues while at the same time negotiating geopolitical interests with the will of the people of the muslim world? >> i should have imposed the rule that the white house tries to. those are great questions. i would like everyone, to hear from all the panelists and following up on that last question about the united states, just throw in the thing that i promised canned i wouldn't bet get short shrift and i'm sorry, but it is secretary clintons promise that says the u.s. and the west want to help partner and assist but not impose. so what is the one thing that you think the united states and the european countries and other countries who want to assist can do? that is a lot. now adding a question to everyone of those questions. do you want to go first? >> looking at the islamic claws and avoiding stereotyping and old judgment, that opens the way for learning more and understanding more about what the islamic world is and there is no doubt that not only in the islamic world but also within the islamic country majority muslim countries, their art diversities of ideas. >> is that your answer? he is saying why is there an unwillingness to acknowledge if i'm summing up your question, which is that there is a sort of tension? >> exactly in regard to the question of sharia, their countries which have risen about these and in different institutions they have addressed the democratic system, the principles of a democratic system as if it has been required and this is not an impediment in that. there are not preferences, but when i mentioned at the beginning briefly that the role of islam cannot be denied, whether it is part of its jurisdiction or --. >> would you like to take any of these questions? no. [laughter] >> again i think we are mixing two different issues. is there a problem that has to be addressed in the muslim moral to get democratic systems working effectively and is there a constitution between islam as a religion and democracy? i challenge that there is a confliction between democracy and islam. i said openly we need, as a model community, to revisit our own thinking and see how our communities can be faithful to the religion and consequently in a more modern fashion to be consistent with the tenets of democracy. if you look at different models of countries you will see reference to sharia in a different fashion. if you look at egypt for example, the reference there it is the principle of islam, not the actual language. why is that? because we have a 10% minority of christians which cannot apply that directly. to the question about america, well, first of all, the reason you are having so much difficulty with this issue of islam, because our issues is we only started looking at it -- so your interest in islam is from a negative.. understandably it is a function of what happened on 9/11 and you try to find out the answers of 9/11 in islam. it is understandable but you are not going to find the answers that way. what you can do however, nobody will listen to you talking about our old faith. you want to make an investment that will serve us and serve you it is education of youth. that is really the essence of using whatever your faith is in a modern fashion and a more democratic fashion. capacity building, education of youth. >> mr. kalin. >> there again i agree with the ambassador on two levels of this discussion. one is the theological religious debate we can have in the and the other is the policy level. and that is a healthy debate that the muslim world should have about the different models of running a government, reconciling it with islamic principles, sharia etc. because again islamic history is so rich in its different possibilities. if you look at different political orders that have developed over the centuries, the medina and model is not exactly the same as the salton and different from the persian tradition. it is interesting the conqueror of istanbul had four titles which he probably carried throughout his life. he said he was a hawk on which refers to the turkish political history or turkish political culture beneath a ruler in turkish and he said i may salton referring to the eric -- arabic for lyrical tradition but also the leader of my air of subjects. he himself also a shawl which in persian music and the ruler of rulers, referring to his person subjects and most strikingly he said i'm also the caesar. he said i'm i am the caesar of rome, referring to his christian subjects, non-muslim subjects. it is a contradiction in that vision. from that to 19th century organization, you have an interesting example, a variety of clinical orders and i think the muslim world in the 21st century will now have to experiment. as i said at the beginning democracy is a work in progress. democracies are working on their democracies on various aspects of democracy. therefore we'll have a similar debate in the muslim world but as far as policies are concerned, there are lots of practical issues we have to address. the question of a woman for example, yes maybe some more narrowminded conservative understanding of religion has a role or is responsible for the lesser roles that a woman plays in muslim countries. there are also others -- biggert problems. i will give an example from turkey. a woman in and a rural area in turkey -- i am wrapping up for you. [laughter] thank you. are much more actively involved in social life of their own immediate environment and they have migrate to urban centers, to big cities. suddenly their social agency diminishes and the reason is that, at least in turkey, our urban centers have developed so badly, no planning, no strategic thinking about how 10 million people for example will live in one city, what kind of provisions we will have to make for them. and suddenly the sense of insecurity dominates their choices and those same women who used to work and be part of the social economic life in in the rural setting suddenly goes home and never leaves the home, because that is a safe place for them. religion has nothing to do with this. i mean it is our urban policy and our policies of development. some of these issues i think are out there again and are very practical issues for all of the countries that we are talking about. >> we are going to have to leave it there. i won to thank our panelists, ahmed bin abdullah-mahmoud, nabil fahmy, ibrahim kalin, thank you. [applause] speeches three click program notes about tomorrow. first, the working groups begin at 9:45. at 11:00, we have a terrific plenary on the rule of it the media moderated by david gregory immediately followed by a luncheon where we will bring together the whole procedure of the form and you are working groups. [applause] ♪ [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> now a discussion on the muslim brotherhood and political unrest in the arab world. house intelligence subcommittee examines the groups influence in egypt and the rest of the middle east. founded in 1928, the muslim brotherhood is the oldest and largest islamic political group. [inaudible conversations] >> good afternoon and welcome. the house select committee on intelligence, subcommittee on terrorism, human intelligence analysis and counterintelligence will come to order. the first order of business is to welcome my ranking member,

recently, king abdullah spread $125 billion among workers, the military, and for housing, a giveaway that prince saud insists was long planned and not an attempt to buy loyalty. when king abdullah spread all that money around, it didn't hurt his standing with the saudi people, of course. but then in fairness to him, he's always been a very popular monarch. >> we have good country, we have safe country, and we trust the government about what going to do. ♪ >> reporter: the kingdom is quiet for now, still pumping oil every day and talking about reform. >> reporter: even so, he emphasized that saudi arabia will not be rushed into change. >> tom brokaw's reporting from his trip from riyadh. >>> and now back in this country he took part in a ceremony in washington today honoring former senator bob dole. the dedication of a new plaque at the world war ii memorial in washington honoring his service. dole, as you may know, was a big driving force behind that memorial. as a young man from kansas, he was severely wounded while serving with the 10th mountain division in italy in the po valley in 1945. he emerged publicly today after months in the hospital on and off following surgery, and

abdullah supporters. there were a lot of tribes that actually support the king. and here in fact also not just in amman we are also watching the situation in yemen. when the president of yemen ali abdullah saleh said he's willing to sacrifice his own blood to go for the people to make sure that they are taken care of in yemen as well. in syria we are watching a situation, the outskirts of damascus there. we are seeing reports of at least four people killed in clashes with antiassad and proassad forces. we are seeing that assad has been able to maintain control. there are tens of thousands of people taking to the streets of damascus. the fact that there are flashes and they led to death are significant. we spoke to one leader of the muslim brotherhood. he's saying that people have got even a taste of freedom and they are willing to die for it. in amman we didn't see any deadly clashes, people here are on edge and ready and prepared to fight for their rights. they want a change in the constitution and want to elect their government democratically. jon: fascinating to see those demonstrations in a country like syria where people have been repressed for so long. thank you. jenna: for more on the uprising in the middle east and what it means for the united states we are joined by former states department spokesman p. stkwr-fplt crowley. one of the most remarkable parts of this story is the speed with which this has been happening across this region. as a former member of the state department for the united states are we on top of this. or are we struggling to keep up with all of these changes? >> the pace of change is remarkable, there are a lot of balls in the air. absolutely on top of it. secretary clinton back in december gave an important speech in qatar where she challenged the region, that it needs to undergo political, social and economic reform. even with that speech it's hard to have envisioned that a street surrender in tunisia would have literally lit a spark that has led to these remarkable developments. jenna: so interesting and good to be reminded of that story in tunisia, as you mentioned that was the tipping point for this region we're looking at right now. one of the questions we have is about perception versus reality when it comes to our government. sometimes the perception has been and since you worked and mentioned secretary clinton we'd love your opinion on this. the perception has been that secretary clinton is very, very aggressive with her idea of what our mideast policy should be, and the president has been a reluctant follower of that. in your opinion is that the nature of their relationship? >> not at all, not at all. go back to the secretary's speech which is about u.s. policy, that the president has formulated. we want to see political, economic and social reform across the region from algeria all the way to yemen. how that unfolds will vary country by country by country. but, you know, you have a situation in libya where qaddhafi had the opportunity to see what had happened in tunisia and egypt. you look at egypt, for example, and in our conversations with the egyptian government and the egyptian military they made clear from the outset that they would never turn their weapons on their own people, and that was a fundamental factor in seeing the things unfold in tahrir square. unfortunately qaddhafi has chosen a different path. i support this intervention, absence aggressive response to qaddhafi's significant use of military weapons against his own people i fear this would have stopped in its traction. jenna: we are hearing about a potential cease-fire. we've heard those president bush and it hasn't been the case. we are hearing that if qaddhafi let's the rebels protest freely and stops his advances, then maybe there could be some sort of reprieve of the fighting. what is your take on that, number one, and if that is the case, if this kind of quote, unquote, peace deal is on the table does that mean the united states is out and gone and no longer involved in libya? >> i don't think so. i think the meaning of the intervention not only was to protect civilians but also to protect the opposition which leaves open the potential for a political solution that ultimately leads to qaddhafi's departure. i think this is unfolding exactly as we would hope it would. if we have a military stalemate that allows for diplomacy and economic pressure to eventually erode qaddhafi's strength. there is a strong parallel to cocokosovo. eventually the serbs got rid of their own leader. i would hope that would happen here as well. jenna: what is next for the united states. we are looking at a lot of different reports. let's go to yemen. we are hearing declarations of a emirates. if we set precedence in libya what is next in the region. >> i'm not sure we are setting precedence in libya. while we want to see reform across the region how things unfold will be based on the unique circumstances that exist country by country. yemen is not libya. yemen is the poorest country in the region. the solution to yemen is a strong government that supports all parts of that country. and the most significant development in yemen recently has been the split between president ali abdullah saleh and his military leader. they come from the same tribe but have a different vision about the future. jenna: we use these determines democracy and freedom as if they apply the same way wherever we say them around the world. it's a important reminder a democracy could elect a fundamental religious leader. do you think that the united states has to be stronger with our message to the arab world about what type of democracy, what type of nations we'd like to see emerge there and be stronger with our message not only there but also to our own people here at home? >> i think our messages have been real strong. these are indigenous phofplts. we will be able to influence wapbs in tunisia, egypt, other countries we will not be able to control it. what the united states can do together with other european countries is provide technical assistance. take egypt, you're trying to form political parties, run free and fair electionses, first for a parliament then for a president. we can provide