points out because it's not a natural bully, it didn't come naturally to him and seemed abon or-- abnoxious , you watch this debate and start thinking, well, i'm annoyed by this man . maria: first question she asked about leadership and he blew up the question. he talked about why he trusted hillary clinton so much. kaine did. >> actually i think what they were doing is reminding people of all the terrible things that trump has said. that was the only point of tim kaine's interventions was to say this is about trump, this is about the most terrible, unqualified scary man to be president. he did not want to debate mike pence at all. maria: he didn't. dagen: you dumped your whole research file on the floor, did you? that's how it came across. kevin: biggest thing that came across from tim kaine is he was interrupting the american people, we were trying to see honest dialogue back and forth, not only did he interrupt pence, he interrupted us. it went for this tit for tat, if anything, it turned everything off. dagen: these two guests can talk about this. there was a lot of substance in there i