ivory madison, abraham mertens, the sheriff, we have discussed him. chief wendy stills. why do we need to hear from her? >> to provide a factual basis about how it is the sheriff's department interacts with the probation department also particularly how the probation department interacts with probationers. which is something -- not something that most -- it is through that that the conflicts inherent in the relationship will become crystalize. we need to put in a fact- finding of origin -- operation. also, i could point out. i am sure you noticed. on our witness list and expert witness list, she is testifying in different compassions -- a different capacities. chair person hur: view on wendy will? commissioner renne: is it your intention to testify by declaration? >> if i could make the point that by doing this by declaration, we are shouldering the burden of the witness list. we're asking you to review the decorations -- and declarations. we will do what we need to do to get the finals -- it is easier to make a decision when to have seen it. the burden of doing that and