then we had abu graib. between the research, reporting and centrally the aclu was successful in obtain iing tens thousands of pages of documents that showed that we ultimately -- the group i was with reported more than 100 detainees have died in u.s. custody, right? suddenly have a different debate about detainee treatment and tactics, radically different deba debate. 2005 to a bill sponsored by senator mccain, saying you can't treat detainees in custody by cruel and degrading treatment. and an executive order, right? a series of executive orders by obama that seems to have really effectively ended the use of those tactics in american custody across the board. so, that's one example, right, of what i think one can say we don't even talk about it anymore. we mostly don't talk about it anymore, because it seems like we sort of helped fix that. now, is it eradicated? no. is that a victory? yeah, absolutely. the extent the claim is this is counterproductive, right. so what's the argument there? is the argument

then we have a grave -- we had of a grave -- we had abu graib. tens of thousands of pages of documents showed more than 100 detainee's died in u.s. custody. then they have different interrogation tactics. it was a radically different debate. there's a passage of a bill in congress saying that you cannot treat people in custody with cruel and degrading treatment and there was a series of executive orders by obama that effectively ended the use of those tactics in american custody across the board. that is one example of what i think -- we don't even talk about it anymore. it seems like the sort of helped fix that. is it eradicated? no. to the extent the claim is that this is counterproductive, what is the argument? is the argument that, if the aclu had done nothing, we would have been better off because the hundred people that were at guantanamo would have been released anyway -- because the 800 people that were at guantanamo would have been released to you? it does point to a question that is about the budget of strategy. the aclu has the best ne