we had one detainee that ultimately led us to abu musab al—zarqawi.terrogation team every day. not pressure interrogation, conversation building up rapport, and that's what actually works. and you're talking about a man there, abu musab al—zarqawi, who you oversaw the killing of. he features in your book on leaders. yeah, right. i mean it's — a lot of people would be somewhat bemused by almost the relationship you have with him. yeah. well, it's the right term. zarqawi grew up in a tough industrial town in jordan, he became more enthusiastic about fundamental islam, went to afghanistan, wanted to become a jihadi, came back, got thrown in prison, and then became a hard—core leader, not just a terrorist leader but a leader. he became a zealot, he became somebody who burned white hot with belief. and we have a situation where you, writing about leaders, i wonder if you were looking at your — appraising your own role and self there. well, you always have to look in the mirror. when i looked at zarqawi, the thing about him in iraq was he was a psychopath,

we had one detainee that ultimately led us to abu musab al—zarqawi. and a woman interrogation team everyally works. who you oversaw the killing of. he features in your book on leaders. yeah, right. the relationship you have with him. yeah. well, it's the right term. not just a terrorist leader but a leader. hot with belief. and self there. well, you always have to look in the mirror. but he was an effective leader. a charismatic leader. were you an effective leader? i think so. journalist? i'm not a perfect leader. over the long—term. now, you were in such an important position over iraq and afghanistan. at the situation there now? i think the invasion of iraq was a mistake. to an area where that was unlikely to stick easily. regime was going to stabilise the region. but i did see some bad decisions. i don't think it's as easy to criticise in its intent. general stanley mcchrystal, thank you for coming on hardtalk. thank you. appreciate it, yeah. hello there. into wednesday morning. flooding on some of the roads there. looking better for many of us, with quite a bit of sunshine around. u